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Dawgstar posted:I think about when he suspected Massarone for being a rat and knew something was up but also then realized actually 'reading' a person is way harder than he'd thought about... although then remembered he'd said Tony had lost weight. (The realization from the rest of the crew was great.) That was a shocking level of self-awareness from Tony. I think most regular people wrongly think they can pick out a liar.
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Jul 15, 2021 17:55
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I think Tony also got Peter Principle'd a little bit; we don't really get to see him in action prior to Jackie being on his deathbed, but the impression I get is that he was a great earner and a capable leader in whatever position he was in before Jackie died. Running the family turned out to be more than he could handle with a similar level of skill, but nobody else was really up to the job and what is he gonna do, demote himself?
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Jul 15, 2021 18:04
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I believe earlier in the episode he checks his weight on a scale because, despite him telling Melli “I’m working on the weight” in a prior episode, he got noticeably bigger between seasons four and five. So he’d be more aware that Massarone was full of poo poo.
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Jul 15, 2021 18:05
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https://twitter.com/TraceBeaulieu/status/1415687518138286080 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpE4Cg08b58
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Jul 15, 2021 19:42
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I'm up to the S6 in my rewatch and it struck me for the first time after seeing the beginnings of Paulie falling out with his mother plot and how that wraps up that to a certain extent him and Artie are the only characters whose storylines end on something akin to grace notes. Paulie is still mostly clueless and obviously taking over the Esplanade crew is a dangerous propositon, but unlike Tony he finds a away to get over maternal baggage in forgiving Nucci and he's able to recognize how his behavior hosed over Chris mentally. And on top of that, it turns out the Virgin Mary has been watching over him.
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Jul 15, 2021 21:43
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this got dropped into my queue after that video. lmao https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBHpmowEBPk
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Jul 15, 2021 21:44
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Move over, Richie. THOSE are Manson lamps.
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Jul 15, 2021 22:46
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Ainsley McTree posted:I think Tony also got Peter Principle'd a little bit; we don't really get to see him in action prior to Jackie being on his deathbed, but the impression I get is that he was a great earner and a capable leader in whatever position he was in before Jackie died. Running the family turned out to be more than he could handle with a similar level of skill, but nobody else was really up to the job and what is he gonna do, demote himself? Apparently even DiMeo himself wanted Tony for the spot, but I don't know if we know why Jackie got the nod as acting boss (although we could infer DiMeo knew that putting Tony on top might set Junior off).
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Jul 15, 2021 23:14
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Dawgstar posted:Apparently even DiMeo himself wanted Tony for the spot Eh, I always figured that was Raymond sucking up to Tony.
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Jul 15, 2021 23:39
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Dawgstar posted:Apparently even DiMeo himself wanted Tony for the spot, but I don't know if we know why Jackie got the nod as acting boss (although we could infer DiMeo knew that putting Tony on top might set Junior off). I think it was Ralphie who called Jrlackie Sr. The " Wonderboy" after they held up Feeches game, so Jackie must had an idea of 170
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Jul 15, 2021 23:47
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Cunning is separate from intelligence also. I'd slot Tony as average to slightly above average intellect. Who would you guys say is the smartest person in the crew?
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Jul 16, 2021 01:00
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Ainsley McTree posted:I think Tony also got Peter Principle'd a little bit; we don't really get to see him in action prior to Jackie being on his deathbed, but the impression I get is that he was a great earner and a capable leader in whatever position he was in before Jackie died. Running the family turned out to be more than he could handle with a similar level of skill, but nobody else was really up to the job and what is he gonna do, demote himself? Are we supposed to think Tony is a poor manager of the New Jersey outfit? I don't know if I necessarily agree with that. Of course by the end of the series the family is relatively decimated, but its intact, will presumably continue on (even if Tony dies), and has survived a war with a much larger and stronger New York family. Tony enriched himself and most of his captains throughout the series, only really faced one civil war at the beginning of his ascendance, and nipped any other revolt in the bud. He's a selfish bastard, he exploited everyone around him and he disposed of people when they ceased to be valuable to him, but I don't think that really distinguishes himself from any of the other bosses in the business. The other most competent member of the family, Silvio, utterly collapsed when under the pressure. I dunno, I think the impression I get is that Tony is a relatively above average mob boss, all things considered. Johnny Sack is presented as a foil to him, and his family is rocked by crises and civil wars throughout his term.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:03
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BiggerBoat posted:Cunning is separate from intelligence also. I'd slot Tony as average to slightly above average intellect. I think Tony probably is the smartest in the crew, I just don't think that makes him smart. Just the king of the dummies. Even going outside of the crew, nobody on the show is really smart. Artie Bucco is pretty average to even dumb. The smartest is probably Meadow or the guys she dates. Nobody in the mob is smart. I think that's kinda the point. This isn't The Godfather. Tony isn't some business or war strategy genius. He's just an intimidating guy trying to hold things together and doing what he was trained to do. A lot of the comments I've seen ITT about how he's smart come across to me like just someone outside of an industry being impressed by someone in an industry. Like, if you're not an electrician, they seem like wizards. If you're not a plumber, they seem real smart, with all these things they know, exactly which tools and parts to use. But that doesn't mean they're a smart plumber, it means they spent 20 years learning plumbing. The smart people are the ones who designed the sewer system. And again, there has to be room between "smart" and "dumb".
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Jul 16, 2021 01:35
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BiggerBoat posted:Who would you guys say is the smartest person in the crew? Sil, probably. He knows when to get out of being acting boss and get his priorities in order.
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Jul 16, 2021 01:53
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Charmaine's pretty loving smart. So long as we're going outside the crew. "King of the Dummies" seems pretty apt though trying to describe anyone particularly impressive intellectually in the main crew. Or any of the crews really. I'd go with Sil also if we're just talking Jersey mob guys but he comes off as more pragmatic than intelligent to me. But I suppose one could argue that being pragmatic in that line of business is pretty smart though.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:19
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You guys are vastly underestimating the amount of intelligence and canny required to run a multimillion dollar illegal enterprise for any length of time.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:21
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Also, you know, the showrunner explicitly put a scene in his prequel saying, "Tony is really smart."
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Jul 16, 2021 02:32
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Gaius Marius posted:You guys are vastly underestimating the amount of intelligence and canny required to run a multimillion dollar illegal enterprise for any length of time. There's a fantastic quote by David Simon in The Corner (the book) where he talks about the level of intelligence, savagery, luck, and even willpower it takes to rise up to become the top of a criminal enterprise, and how it is a big mistake to underestimate them or consider that they're taking the "easy" way out. I do wish sometimes The Sopranos had focused a little more on the relentless grinding pressure the mid-level or low-level guys in the mob face trying to survive. They did it at times but it was never really the major focus: Christopher having to kick up more money to Paulie, Paulie freaking out about losing a source of income he was relying on when Barone Sanitation got sold, Matt and Sean basically surviving off crumbs, Bobby just haranguing Silvio about getting a territory added to his collections run etc. There's a great scene in Donnie Brasco showing guys literally breaking open parking meters to pull out quarters to try and generate the money Sonny needs to kick-up his tribute after he gets named the new head of the crew.
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Jul 16, 2021 02:38
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Gaius Marius posted:You guys are vastly underestimating the amount of intelligence and canny required to run a multimillion dollar illegal enterprise for any length of time. Yes but you see they sometimes made bad decisions, so that makes them morons, like plummers. Duh!
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Jul 16, 2021 04:18
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Gaius Marius posted:You guys are vastly underestimating the amount of intelligence and canny required to run a multimillion dollar illegal enterprise for any length of time. Again, the show itself seems to refute this. Sopranos is not The Godfather or even Goodfellas. If anything they're shown to be pretty incompetent rather frequently. Human Tornada posted:Yes but you see they sometimes made bad decisions, so that makes them morons, like plummers. Duh! Yeah that's what I said. 
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Jul 16, 2021 04:52
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Can’t we all just come together as a thread and agree that the “HBO paid Gandolfini not to star in The Office” story sounds like total bullshit
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Jul 16, 2021 07:45
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The actual logistics of Mafia activity and brain power to run it don't matter in terms of evaluating how smart the Sopranos characters are. Every main character on the Sopranos, except Silvio, are all defined by how they take shortcuts in their lives and how they rely on a circle of people that are all unreliable. The smartest Sopranos characters are the ones who get to a point where they finally know themselves and how they exist in relation to others. Tony isn't a smart character because he never gets to this point. Even Meadow is just using a prettied up version of Sil's perspective on the Columbus Day protests in justifying law school as a choice and she ends up engaged to Parisi's son, someone who is still too close in Tony's orbit for him and Carmela to be happy with and also something that S1 Meadow would be horrified by. Most if not of the characters fail this self awareness test except for Artie, Melfi, Little Carmine, and to a certain extent Paulie.
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Jul 16, 2021 08:07
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An Evening at Tony Soprano's House with LA Beast https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acJgtJGZ_GU
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Jul 16, 2021 09:34
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Ah, Jersey's basically a glorified crew.
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Jul 16, 2021 12:31
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Escobarbarian posted:Can’t we all just come together as a thread and agree that the “HBO paid Gandolfini not to star in The Office” story sounds like total bullshit Steve is a bit of a rube, wouldn't be hard to take him for a ride with some story like that
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Jul 16, 2021 13:52
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The timeline doesn't really work with Schirripa's story; Gandolfini maybe had a lull of a year or two after the series ended but he was pretty busy around the time that Carrel would've been leaving The Office. He had done a number of supporting roles in films, and his production company had a long-term deal with HBO (They'd done a couple of documentaries about veterans and PTSD in addition to two original films, and Gandolfini starred in one of them.) He wasn't landing high-profile, leading man stuff, but he definitely wasn't "not working" like Schrippa said. I'm sure he was offered the Office gig, and I definitely think the "$3 million cash to not do a show" is an exaggeration, but I could see HBO restructuring his overall development deal (with some direct financial incentive) to keep him in their orbit, rather than having him go off to do half a year or more on a sitcom. This was around the time that pilot that eventually became The Night Of was in development, which he was set to star in (and received posthumous production credit on.)
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Jul 16, 2021 17:54
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And why was it specifically the Office? It's not like they prevented him from doing stuff like God of Carnage on Broadway. Or loving Saving Christmas.
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Jul 16, 2021 18:00
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He was gay, Gary Cooper?
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Jul 16, 2021 23:44
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Gyshall posted:He was gay, Gary Cooper? I say this around other people at least once a month
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Jul 17, 2021 00:11
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He was an interior decorator
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Jul 17, 2021 00:41
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JethroMcB posted:The timeline doesn't really work with Schirripa's story; Gandolfini maybe had a lull of a year or two after the series ended but he was pretty busy around the time that Carrel would've been leaving The Office. He had done a number of supporting roles in films, and his production company had a long-term deal with HBO (They'd done a couple of documentaries about veterans and PTSD in addition to two original films, and Gandolfini starred in one of them.) He wasn't landing high-profile, leading man stuff, but he definitely wasn't "not working" like Schrippa said. The Office had an episode where a bunch of heavy hitters (Jim Carey, James Spader, Will Farrell) interviewed for Steve Carrell's character's job, and I'm wonder if maybe Gandofini was offered a cameo (and the $3 million thing is just BS obviously).
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Jul 17, 2021 00:50
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I posted that article but I guess it makes sense that it's not true. Probably would be weird to be sitting there talking about $3 million to your old cast members who uhh are probably not getting that.
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Jul 17, 2021 02:05
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PostNouveau posted:The Office had an episode where a bunch of heavy hitters (Jim Carey, James Spader, Will Farrell) interviewed for Steve Carrell's character's job, and I'm wonder if maybe Gandofini was offered a cameo (and the $3 million thing is just BS obviously). I'm assuming that if there was real money being discussed that Gandolfini was offered the role that Spader wound up taking (not as Robert California exactly, but as the guy who would take over Michael's job and wound up hanging around for a season) If they were considering him for a cameo, I hope the idea was that he would be playing Kevin Finnerty
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Jul 17, 2021 02:05
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JethroMcB posted:I'm assuming that if there was real money being discussed that Gandolfini was offered the role that Spader wound up taking (not as Robert California exactly, but as the guy who would take over Michael's job and wound up hanging around for a season) Maybe so. That would have been awesome. Not that Spader wasn't good. His character was one of the good points of some bad seasons.
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Jul 17, 2021 02:15
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I had forgotten all about the scene where Chris and Sil go and pay the old guys in Rhode Island to do a hit on Johnny Sack. What an absolutely weird scene for this show.
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Jul 17, 2021 06:54
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TheKingslayer posted:I had forgotten all about the scene where Chris and Sil go and pay the old guys in Rhode Island to do a hit on Johnny Sack. What an absolutely weird scene for this show. Ninja style
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Jul 17, 2021 12:44
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I feel compelled to share this with the thread: https://twitter.com/nickusen/status/1416067928622084098
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Jul 17, 2021 14:32
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Hesh is the smartest for obvious reasons. Passive income, minimal risk, minimal effort, eats pussy.
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Jul 17, 2021 14:46
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Sinteres posted:I feel compelled to share this with the thread: This scheme of the boss' to stall for time to try to beat his charges and keep his lieutenants from fighting each other by installing some random guy to rubber-stamp their decisions seems clever until he picked some loving moron who can't stop talking over the phone as the figurehead
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Jul 17, 2021 15:03
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TheKingslayer posted:I had forgotten all about the scene where Chris and Sil go and pay the old guys in Rhode Island to do a hit on Johnny Sack. What an absolutely weird scene for this show. Admittedly, it was weird but I love that loving scene for reasons I can't put my finger on. Maybe it was that that house full of weirdos were all like "oh, so you want to kill a person?" and seemed totally insane and incompetent while also throwing the guys who kill people a lot for a loop and casting side eyes. It was kind of "yeah, we don't know how to do or accomplish much or do anything at all. But who is this person you want dead? We got this." I got the sense those weirdos had a harder time making dinner, mowing the lawn, vacuuming their house or going grocery shopping than committing an untraceable murder for money. As if it was the ONLY thing they could do and Sil and Chris were rookies. Halloween Jack posted:Hesh is the smartest for obvious reasons. Passive income, minimal risk, minimal effort, eats pussy. poo poo, you nailed it. I forgot about him.
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Jul 17, 2021 17:46
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