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Solice Kirsk posted:Tony really is completely reprehensible through the entire run. Even when he does something that seems nice like not wanting Vito dead there's still a motive there. He likes that Vito brings him in a lot of money, and he hates doing what anyone else tells him to do. His most reprehensible act is I think killing Chris. He brings Chris into that life, draws him ever deeper, convinces him to never flip and do anything to hurt him or the Mob, and then ultimately kills Chris himself.
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Mar 4, 2019 04:48
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Pulcinella di Bund posted:
I love when Ginny sees Tony come to visit and she just yells loudly for John to get down there because he's got company. It's the most New Jersey thing.
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Apr 11, 2019 19:32
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JethroMcB posted:That dude completely sucks Jackie and his friends were coked up idiots so while it's cowardly I don't exactly blame Matush for not wanting to lose his life over their stupidity.
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Apr 25, 2019 23:12
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It's a credit to Robert Patrick that he can play a character as menacing as the T-1000 and still pivot from that to play Davey Scatino so well. He's just such a pathetic character in the Sopranos but it's hard to have a lot of sympathy for him given he gambles away his family's future. And yet Tony knows full well what he is doing by allowing Davey to play in the Executive game. He knows the potential consequences, but he can't help himself. He's a predator, and Davey despite being his childhood friend is prey. Tony tries to talk Davey out of getting involved but he doesn't put too much effort into it because ultimately he knows Davey is a potential gold mine. He feels enough guilt to not just immediately say ok when Davey asks to play in the game but not enough to actually stop him from destroying his own life.
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Apr 27, 2019 00:01
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Jerusalem posted:I like when Artie fucks up his attempted investment plan and gets his rear end beat/tries to commit suicide, Tony shows up and offers to basically take care of everything for him and gets infuriated when Artie proclaims (with great admiration) that Tony saw all this coming and planned accordingly, but later on actually admits (to Melfi I think) that this is certainly something he is capable of and he can't deny that maybe subconsciously he was doing what Artie said. Yeah that's a good point. It's almost second nature for Tony to take advantage of others. It's second nature for everyone in that type of life really. You pointed it out in your recap with Junior: quote:They stand in uncomfortable silence for a moment, and Junior explains Ercole died a little before Johnny Boy himself, then - clearly upset himself at the memory - insists they return to the present. What will his cut of THE EXECUTIVE GAME be? Tony, still dazed, offers 10% and Junior immediately insists 20. Tony, in a fog, mumbles 15 as a compromise and Junior is quick to snatch it up. His love for Ercole is genuine, but he is not above using this moment to get more than he could have reasonably hoped for from Tony otherwise. Here Junior is giving Tony some important family history and it's a moment of trust that way between Tony and Junior. It's a humanizing moment between family. And yet even in that kind of moment Junior can't help but try and exploit it to make more money off of Tony. The avarice of all the mobsters on the show is second nature. It's instinct. That doesn't excuse it, but it does color every action they take, because often times even when they're doing or saying something good there's always that predatory instinct lurking beneath what they do.
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Apr 27, 2019 04:00
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Solice Kirsk posted:So can someone please answer just how much baked ziti it will cost me to get into heaven? 55 boxes. Good luck.
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May 6, 2019 01:56
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ruddiger posted:Did you not like the last story arc or how the story arc concluded? The finale's story ran across a few episodes and felt not only true to that plot line, but to the series as a whole. There's really no other way for that show to end. Seinfeld shouldn't have even had a real finale. It should have just ended on a normal episode. The show about nothing shouldn't end on something of substance.
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May 12, 2019 18:34
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Grenrow posted:Richie's death is so perfect for an rear end in a top hat like him. You'd think a lifetime spent in the mob or prison would have taught him that sometimes you have to be careful not to push people to the breaking point, but he never learned. That's probably why he ended up in jail in the first place, by being too much of a relentless psycho to finesse his way out of a situation. I'm sure he was always a cruel brute but I imagine at least part of his craziness must have had to do with his younger brother being such a star compared to him. And then there's Tony who is also younger and wasn't that important before Richie went into prison but is now in a position of authority over him. He's in some ways a younger Junior Soprano. Both were overshadowed by their powerful brothers and both never felt like they got the respect or power they deserved. And both knew Tony before Tony was the powerful figure he is now and they have a lot of difficulty reconciling the new Tony with the Tony they knew when he was younger. Junior at least learns to respect and live with Tony, but Richie never does. We'll see this same theme repeat itself later in the series with Feech La Manna where he gets out of prison but can't bring himself to respect Tony the way he should because he remembers Tony as a kid. But by that point Tony has learned from the Richie situation and he quickly nips the Feech problem in the bud before Feech can become too big a thorn in his side.
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May 13, 2019 21:35
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pentyne posted:Feech was on borrowed time because he did not give a gently caress about the younger guys and lost his poo poo on Paulie over a tree trimming collection business. The casual disregard to Tony aside, he kept running his mouth and talking like he was real bigshot mafia guy. I agree, but the older gangsters who have no regard for the younger crew is a theme throughout the show. Some of them (like Paulie) can work with the younger crews well enough to not get killed over it, but many of them just can't because they get hung up on the past.
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May 13, 2019 21:50
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So in the hypothetical world where Albert does back Richie and they manage to take Tony out, does the rest of the family even back Richie after that? I feel like they would have all gone to Sil. None of that crew respected Richie. Felt like a doomed venture from the start and I guess Junior does realize that sooner than later but that he even considered it in the first place was a risky proposition.
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May 19, 2019 18:32
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BiggerBoat posted:I don't think they'd have much of a choice in the matter. I could maybe see them falling in line in the short term but long term I think there would have been war over it. And who would even have been in charge? Junior? I don't see Richie showing him any more respect long term than Tony. And with how hot headed both Junior and Richie are that would have inevitably led to conflict between the two. Junior at least seems to keep his emotions in check when he's not the real boss but in season 1 when he did think he had the power his pride and anger got him hosed over all the time. I liked the Silvio slow-mo. One of the recurring themes in the show is how quickly and brutally murders happen and that Silvio slow-mo helps hammer that point home. One moment Sil is talking and everything is normal and the next he's got blood splattering on his face from a murder.
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May 20, 2019 14:39
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BiggerBoat posted:Did you make Bobby eat it? Chris was inevitably going to get pinched for drugs and probably would have eventually ratted out Tony over it. Tony tried to rationalize it as something other than that to himself like he does with all of his murders but he deep down he killed Chris because he feared his weakness would eventually cause him to flip.
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May 24, 2019 01:13
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Man Nancy Marchand was so loving good on this show.
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May 24, 2019 16:05
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Jerusalem posted:This finally triggers genuine emotion in Janice who struggles to maintain herself as she explains that "Hal" is now living homeless in Canada and she can't track him down. Tony makes a genuine apology, but still firmly insists she be there tomorrow. You think so? Those felt like crocodile tears to guilt trip Tony. But Janice is so manipulative it's hard to tell when she is being genuine so maybe I'm wrong.
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May 26, 2019 20:17
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Solice Kirsk posted:Johnny Sack nailed it as a boss. Well, for as long as he was a boss anyways. Not really. He had a huge ego and temper and let it get in the way of business all the time. He was a great 2nd, but not suited as a first.
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May 30, 2019 17:58
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No Wave posted:Jackie Jr just had no idea how things actually worked. His dad was away so he didnt actually live around the mob and he's suddenly trying to make moves in a world that he has no understanding of at all. He tries to imitate Tony's card game thing with no understanding of how times were different and no experience doing anything rough so ofc things go horribly wrong. I always wondered if Ralphie intentionally planted that seed knowing that Jackie Jr would inevitably gently caress it up and get killed. Or maybe Ralph just did it hoping to see Tony get humiliated that one of his card games got robbed.
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Jun 4, 2019 17:25
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ruddiger posted:Ralphie was supposed to be a part of the original card game robbery and lamented missing out on his chance at glory. I always felt like he was trying to recapture a little bit of that by mentoring Jackie Jr. He definitely put the seed there on purpose, but in Ralphie's own hosed up frame of thought, he probably thought he was giving Jackie a shot at something he missed out on. Yeah that seems most likely. But Ralph isn't stupid either. He'd have to know Jackie would gently caress it up, right?
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Jun 4, 2019 17:36
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Zaphod42 posted:I think my least favorite parts of Sopranos are Richie Aprile and Ralph Cifaretto, they're just such unredeemable douchebags. They're good characters for what they are, and being rear end in a top hat gangsters but on Tony's side puts him in a tough position, although also allows us to easily say "well, he's not bad like them, he's a good guy" which seems a little cheap. They're like cartoonishly evil, not that real people don't do things like that. I like them as characters. Both actors kill it. But more than that, Tony's reaction to how those characters behave illustrates he really isn't much better. Ralph kills Tracee and is Tony upset about it? Maybe a little, but he's more upset that Ralph disrespected him by doing it near the Bing. When Richie runs over Beansie and cripples him for life, Tony tries to make up for it by giving Beansie some cash, but otherwise apart from a harsh word or two to Richie he overlooks it. And when Richie is intimidating Davey Scatino and exploiting him for cash, Tony initially defends Davey but then turns around and preys on Davey even harder than Richie did. Tony is just as immoral as Richie and Ralph are, he's just better at putting a positive spin on his own brutal tendencies. I also don't know that Richie and Ralph are totally irredeemable. They're both really bad people, and Ralph in particular kills his own loving kid and girlfriend which is just horrific. But on the other hand, Richie seems to genuinely care about Janice and as far as I know doesn't cheat on her with a goomare. Ralph also does his best to earn money to help pay for his kid who is in the hospital, and possibly even engineers Pie-o-My's death in order to use that insurance money to help pay for his kid's treatments. So he is apparently not 100% a one-note selfish prick.
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Jun 4, 2019 18:44
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talktapes posted:Tony literally forces the cash on Beansie to make himself feel better. "You gotta take the money," plus the final shot of him walking away with the poo poo eating grin on his face after he intimidates him into accepting the envelope... it's really an encapsulation of a major theme of the show, which is that people in the mob don't have any respect for other people or human life in general. Other individuals are evaluated positively or negatively in terms of how they affect them personally, there is zero genuine empathy and everyone's a sociopath on some level. Yeah that's the thing. Tony is as bad as any of them. I don't think we're ever meant to think that he's all that much better than his colleagues. He might not do something as heinous as killing Tracee, but he has a long and terrible list of crimes and meanness himself. Jerusalem posted:I'm really interested in how this current rewatch is gonna make me end up feeling about Ralphie. Sometimes I think he's just a coked up idiot which is why he does the stupid things he does, other times I think he's just an idiot shielded by the enormous amount of cash he is bringing in, but more often than not I feel like his every action is designed around trying to finagle his way up into the upper ranks (and sulking when he faces a setback). His story about missing out on Feech's card game could easily be read as bigging himself up and overstating his significance in the Tony/Jackie crew of the time, but I also think there is a strong element of him always regretting not being part of it and worrying that he somehow missed his shot, and ever since he's been trying to figure out a way to catch up. Ralphie is smart or at least clever. It's no accident that he's one of the biggest earners. And his constant undermining of Gigi is not just sour grapes. I think it's designed to put pressure on Tony to reconsider his decision and to make Gigi look incompetent. My read on Ralph is he's not a long term Machiavellian planner but he does think quickly on his feet and (when his coke binges aren't getting in the way) he's capable of turning situations to his advantage. Look at how he screws Paulie out of the take by intentionally leaving Little Paulie out in the cold and then arguing to Tony that all Paulie did was give him a security code.
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Jun 5, 2019 04:55
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Jerusalem posted:Yeah, I get that Ralphie murdering her clearly sets him up as the antagonist (I'm of mixed feelings about how that is resolved in this season) but I'm really glad they didn't shy away from showing just how vicious, exploitative and uncaring everybody else is all the way down to Georgie the goofy bartender. It is a credit to the show's writing that it could acknowledge and accept that the characters were pieces of poo poo while also still making them relatable/entertaining and in many cases even beloved. The show does a really good job of showing how everyone involved with the life gets tainted by it. It's not even just the mobsters. Look at how Carmela overlooks Tony's crimes and infidelities all because she appreciates the lavish lifestyle he provides for her and their kids. Or Meadow who has a problem with Tony's racism but who is all too happy to take his money to buy herself what she wants. Or even the FBI agents who have no qualms about putting Pussy and their informants into dangerous situations if it gets them a chance to take down Tony. And look how close Agent Harris gets to Tony over the course of the series, going from an antagonist to by the end an ally for Tony. It's like the Wire in that the institutions corrupt everyone in them
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Jun 6, 2019 20:14
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Jerusalem posted:It must kinda suck but also rule to know that a casting agent is gonna instantly think of you when they want to cast,"Arrogant douchebag." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJggSqCftgA&t=187s
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Jun 10, 2019 06:14
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I don't think it matters much whether Tony died. If he died, he died, and if not, he's still facing life without his former close allies given Sil and Junior are out of commission and he's also facing Carlo flipping and potentially putting him into jail. And his traditional ally in New York Johnny Sack is long gone. He's hosed either way. In a way I'm glad David Chase left it ambiguous because I think showing Tony's death almost lets Tony off too easy. Leaving it ambiguous makes the viewer realize that Tony is in trouble whether or not he got killed in that restaurant. Even if you take an optimistic view and say that Tony doesn't get whacked, doesn't get put in jail by Carlo flipping, and that Sil comes out of the coma you're still left with the knowledge that Tony's lifestyle will eventually catch up to him, and that in any case his relationship with his family is always going to be volatile as well because of his chosen occupation.
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Jun 12, 2019 21:46
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I'm not sure Tony is completely without empathy. He does seem to love his kids, and I always got the feeling that was genuine. Of course it's not without strings attached. He wants to love his kids but he wants that to be exactly on his own terms which causes tension throughout the series. I also think he loved Chris, though it wasn't enough to save Chris from being murdered in the end. But before that happens he gives Chris a ton of slack for his repeated transgressions where any other mobster would have been murdered. And while I think part of that has to do with Tony seeing Chris as his protege and wanting to groom him to be his eventual successor I think part of it also has to do with Tony genuinely caring about Chris in his own twisted way. Then again Tony is remarkably skilled at faking empathy and uses that repeatedly throughout the show to coerce others into following him so maybe I'm just falling for his act too.
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Jun 17, 2019 15:43
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Solice Kirsk posted:Meadow probably grew the most out of all the characters on the show. One of my favorite scenes is when she's asking her mom what she plans to do once she's divorced and kind of rolls her eyes when Carm tells her she doesn't need a job because she has lawyers. Actually, the whole plot of them being separated was one of my favorites. I don't think her growth is positive at all. She becomes more and more accepting of Tony's lifestyle as the series goes along and even starts defending him when others question what he does. Like Carmela she'd be best served severing ties completely with her father but she's understandably unable to do so. One of the biggest indictments of Tony's life is how it drags his wife and his children down with him. Meadow's acceptance of Tony is no more exemplified than when Coco makes drunken sexual advances towards her. Unlike Dr.Melfi who ultimately made the choice not to use Tony for vigilante justice, Meadow has no problem doing so and she 100% knows what's going to happen to Coco once she tells Tony what he did. I think she ultimately ends up like Carmela. She knows that the mob life is wrong but she's willing to accept it because of the status and material advantages it presents. I think the main difference is unlike Carmela who tries to sugarcoat and hide from Tony's darkness Meadow is more willing to outwardly rationalize what Tony does and even embrace it.
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Jun 24, 2019 16:04
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Ungratek posted:The state guarantees matching funds into whatever the Esplanade costs to build, as well as guarantees regarding costs overruns. This works in the show because the Councilmen will help funnel the contracts to unions/contractors under the thumb of the mob, who can just run wild. The no show/no work jobs come from here (with exorbitant wages), giving everyone health insurance and a W-2 for tax purposes. On top of that, they can just wildly overcharge for materials and time and pocket the difference, while over ordering items (which the matching funds pay for), steal them, and then sell them on the side. Sometimes they're a little more careful on the stealing part. Looting the job sites versus not looting them becomes a recurring source of tension as the show progresses. Speaking of councilmen, it always felt a little unrealistic to me how openly Zellman would meet with Tony. You'd think he'd have to be more careful with who he meets with in public given his position. But maybe I overestimate how much people would be paying attention.
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Jun 26, 2019 16:27
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Basebf555 posted:Davis is more prominent but Stringer Bell is much less so than Tony Soprano. Nobody has any idea who Stringer is(outside of the Major Crimes Unit), right up to his death. Tony is on t.v. all the time as a known mafia boss/capo, or at least associate. Yeah, that. In fact by the time Stringer starts meeting with Clay, he (Stringer) is pretty insulated from the day to day business operations of the Barksdale organization. Tony and his associates would be more well known to the locals I would think.
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Jun 27, 2019 19:54
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Basebf555 posted:It's actually one of the main themes of the entire series, that the cops are so tied up in piling up statistics that they really put no effort into knowing anything about the actual organization that controls half the city's drug trade. And the feds are still living in the past where they think of "organized crime" as an Italian mafia thing, and really they're much more interested in arresting "terrorists" than guys in the inner city who provide no fanfare and attention when you catch them. Yeah, and one other point to remember is Tony is being investigated by the FBI whereas in the Wire the FBI doesn't give any shits about the Baltimore drug trade. The Baltimore drug trade was being investigated only by local police. Local police are generally understaffed and certainly underpaid compared to the FBI which has nearly limitless funding in comparison.
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Jun 27, 2019 20:13
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Good stuff as always. I like that scene with Patsy because you don't always get to see all of the made guys in action and Patsy in most other situations seems relatively harmless. When you see him there threatening Gloria you realize oh poo poo he's actually as dangerous as any made guy. And the actor really sells it and comes off as pretty terrifying.
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Jun 29, 2019 18:27
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Zaphod42 posted:Look at how Tony idolizes The Godfather on the show. Life imitating art. And that itself is fictional, but you have to imagine that some real-life mobsters look up to Tony. That's a little weird to think about. I don't know if Tony idolizes it. He's amused by the Godfather and they all enjoy the movie and Sil's quotes, but I don't think they hold it up as a piece of high art or anything or as a moral code to live up to. It's just a goofy Italian movie that's quotable for them. Also the whole waiter and Paulie/Chris thing is something the show likes to do a lot which is pit mobsters against normal people and then have those confrontations escalate into something terrible. There are normal people who would do just what Chris did there and fail to properly tip, but most normal people would just have a little back and forth argument with the waiter and then leave after a few choice words. But for Chris and Paulie, that situation escalates into a dead waiter instead. In some of these situations you even sympathize with the mob characters at first. When the kid in the donut shop is being an rear end in a top hat to Chris you're on Chris' side. But obviously the kid doesn't deserve to have a gun pulled on him and then to be shot in the foot to boot (see what I did there).
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Jul 2, 2019 04:33
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Martian Manfucker posted:They're all pieces of poo poo on this show, but in a really tragic way, and it's great. I regret writing it off as Goodfellows but on TV ages ago. Even if you did think that was what it was why would you write it off for that reason? Goodfellas is one of the greatest films of all time. If there were a TV show like that I'd be watching all the time. That said I'm glad that the Sopranos is a very different piece of art than Goodfellas.
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Jul 3, 2019 20:54
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Xander77 posted:I mostly experience the Sopranos through youtube clips and the recaps here, which is obviously the best possible way to get the show. It is, but most people wouldn't ever act on those fantasies and David Chase shows you just how empty and horrible it is if you actually do. The violence isn't glorified. But yeah a lot of people definitely miss that point unfortunately.
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Jul 5, 2019 15:39
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Artie is infuriating because he has everything: a smart and hot wife, a successful business, and he's generally well liked. Despite all of that he can't help but get himself in trouble constantly because he has a need to be respected and loved by Tony and his crew. Iirc he does end the series in a decent place and has learned to shut up by the end and just quietly succeed though.
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Jul 12, 2019 15:29
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crazy eyes mustafa posted:Excellent summary. I wonder if Rosalie was wise to Ralph’s sexual proclivities- there’s nothing to indicate she’s either on board with or disgusted by his tendencies, or if he even shares them with her at all. I'm sure she knew or at least suspected. Even if Jackie SR didn't cheat on her she surely knew what the other mobsters like Tony and Ralph are like
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Jul 17, 2019 21:26
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If you look at most real life examples a lot of these guys only leave the life when forced to, and at least some of the guys that do leave end up getting in trouble again because they have no idea how to live normally. With Tony, I don't think it's just the desire for that type of life that gets in the way of him processing his feelings properly. It's also his own pride. Tony is extremely self absorbed, and he insists that everyone else fits into his view of what life should be. When they inevitably don't, problems arise. I think even if he did manage to leave the life he'd struggle with his own pride and maybe not ever be able to adjust to allowing people to breathe around him and be themselves.
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Aug 5, 2019 18:10
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Sometimes an older grainier look suits a show. I really love how True Detective Season 1 is shot and they do a good job of capturing that 90's tv show aesthetic.
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Aug 11, 2019 06:16
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I enjoy the moment of murderous calculation you see on Richie's face after Albert repeats his joke about Larry getting a face lift and then going to jail. You can see that Richie isn't sure if Albert is mocking him or just has a verbal tic. David Proval owns.
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Aug 12, 2019 18:58
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Basebf555 posted:Regarding the Tracee/Pie O My situation, it definitely seems to be Tony again focusing on an innocent animal as a way to relieve himself of the potential guilt that comes along with the way he treats innocent people like poo poo. Similar to how he became so focused on the ducks as a way to avoid thinking about his own lovely home life and the potential danger his lifestyle could bring upon his family. He's not specifically thinking of Tracee when he kills Ralph but like Jerusalem said I don't think his brain was making much of a distinction there in that moment. Do you think it's the guilt that drives his love of animals? I think his love of animals has more to do with how they conform perfectly to his world view. A horse will never act like anything but a horse. It's innocent and safe and Tony can control it and get exactly what he wants from it. People are wild and unpredictable and they don't listen and all of those things drive a controlling personality like Tony crazy. Look at his own family. He can't get any of them to do what he wants. But an animal? They'll always be there for him. If he wanted to just relax and feel peaceful he could go and visit Pie-O-My and get exactly those feelings every time.
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Aug 14, 2019 00:13
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Does New York ever get pissed about Ralph getting offed? I can't remember that it ever comes up, and considering Carmine's refusal to allow Johnny to get him you'd think they'd be upset about the Esplanade Apple Cart being disrupted. Granted like Tony's crew they have no proof that Tony did anything so I guess what can they ultimately do.
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Aug 16, 2019 14:45
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Basebf555 posted:I think if he hadn't handled it as quickly and smartly as he did, bringing just one trusted guy over to deal with it and immediately getting the body cleaned up etc., it would've gone down a different way. They really have nothing more than whispers and vague suspicions so what can they do? Christopher is definitely the right one for the job too because Chris has his own problems what with drugs and feeling like he owes Tony due to Tony bringing him along. I think the only other one he might have been able to fully trust for that job would have been Sil. Paulie might have done the job but I don't know that he'd be able to keep his mouth shut about it.
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Aug 16, 2019 15:22
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Dawgstar posted:There's a good moment somewhere where Sil is trying to bring the concerns of 'the troops' to Tony (over Tony B, I think) and the way Tony just blows him off Sil realizes that while he used to be the guy who could call Tony on his crap - and indeed that's kind of the role of the consiglieri - realizes Tony no longer wanted to hear it and even Sil might be on the block if he pushed too hard. Tony gets so mad during that scene in part because Sil is 100% correct and he knows it. Nothing pisses Tony off more than being called on his own poo poo.
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Aug 16, 2019 17:40
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