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Alexander Hamilton
Dec 29, 2008


Jose Oquendo posted:

Is the success of The Joker partially responsible for WB green lighting the Snyder cut and apparently the directors cut of Suicide Squad?

Did they figure out that letting a director do his thing can in fact sometimes result in financial and critical success?

They promoted Walter Hamada (he did a bunch of horror movies at New Line) to oversee DC Films after Justice League did so terribly. Their films haven't all hit at the box office but I think they've all been pretty good and without a bunch of drama so maybe that's why.

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Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



And WB bet against Joker and ended up losing most of the profits to investors or something.

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000







Also, Snyder said he’s personally putting together the trailers for it.

Mr. Apollo fucked around with this message at 15:51 on May 22, 2020

SalTheBard
Jan 26, 2005


I forgot to post my food for USPOL Thanksgiving but that's okay too!




Fallen Rib

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JneQfHLo4M

Found this video that did a good job explaining WTF happened to Justice League

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Is the version of BvS that's going to be in HBO Max the extended edition?

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Roth posted:

Just finished, and I really enjoyed it.

I think the most interesting thing about the movie is that it acknowledges that all this power fantasy stuff really is just a fantasy of Babydoll's. They're just her imagination while the other girls accomplish their goals while she distracts the men with her dancing. I think this is most shown when the cook kills one of the girls, and as she's getting stabbed, Baby switches back to a much more palpable version of a grand heroic sacrifice with a far off explosion rather than an in your face, brutal stabbing. Blondie and Amber are are then gunned down in front of her with no way to soften that blow with escapism, and Baby stabs Blue, causing a ton of blood to gush out. A small-ish detail I liked was that all the fantasies were bloodless, as opposed to the reality of the actual murders and violence in the film. She then acknowledges to Sweet Pea that she really didn't do anything the entire movie, and that she should escape while she sacrifices herself.

I'm a bit torn on the ending and whether it's as simple as the whole movie was a fantasy in the first place, or that the final sequence is just one last fantasy Baby invents to cope. One where she's essentially lobotomized as a way to cope with being turned into a sex slave. It definitely feels, to me, like the most bleak of Snyder's movies which contrasts with all the absurd action scenes.

I guess my biggest problem with the movie is the fact that the action is completely decontextualized and presented as a fantasy metaphor that reveals nothing about the characters and only thinly aligns with the plot. I will try to elaborate.

I think the most successful action films are those that reveal something about the character through the action. For an extremely easy example, look at the Matrix, which took the sort of gravity-defying Wushu wirework and used it to support the metaphor that the characters were hacking reality. There was a direct line there between this extremely thematic idea of "transcending reality" and the floaty kung fu. There was a direct line between "we're fighting Agents of the System" and literally punching identically-besuited Men In Black.

Take the Running Man. The action here is a game show, but of course the game show is all rigged, it's all fake. The audience doesn't see the "real" action, it's filtered through the lense of the camera. But Ben Richards is so powerful and intelligent that even the Network (and by implication, the Government's) tricks can't work, and his personal individual victories against the rigged system inspire a literal revolution. (It's also extremely funny that the Captain America analogue of the movie refuses to fight him - "real America" supports Richards)

The throughline between the action scenes and Sucker Punch is almost non-existent. I mean, there is a line - it's not an incoherent movie. But it's so tenuous; so thin. Ok it's time for the team to steal a map, so we'll have them...storm the trenches fighting steampunk Teutonic zombies in a faux WW1 to get a map? I mean yes, there are links there, but they are very circuitous or even nonexistent. One of the characters is always the "pilot" type, but how could piloting a jump-jetted steammech or an AC-130 possibly relate to that plan? How does that relate to her being a weak-willed simp who gives up her friends in the real world? I mean, we have seen that character in the Magnificent Seven, we know how to execute action with a weak character, and yet there's not an inkling of it.

I will say that the action setups are nutso and executed well and I sincerely love them. Show me that clip of that AC-130 absolute deaking a fuckin' dragon and you've got my attention. The actresses move and fight well although I do not think each of them has enough of an individual "style". But the real failure is that lack of context. It's totally free-floating, nothing is revealed by the characters through the action, the scenes exist to be cool and once they are over we're back to the madhouse with a box checked off. And so with this sort of disassociation from the "real" narrative, the scenes ultimately become what people say Snyder is all the time - meaningless spectacle - because the two world of the movie (madhouse and fantasy) are so misaligned.

Darko
Dec 23, 2004



That's a good description of why you feel that way; I might echo some of the same feelings as to why I'm just so uninvolved into those action scenes.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


I think for me I was into it because it reminded me of, like, b-tier PS2 action games.

Ones that are more into having stylish action than being a strong narrative experience.

Sir Kodiak
May 14, 2007



I have a soft spot for Sucker Punch because—in addition to it clearly having its heart in the right place—when I watched it and saw the fight against the robots on the train, I thought "this guy should make a Superman movie" and then he did.

Pirate Jet
May 2, 2010


Roth posted:

Is the version of BvS that's going to be in HBO Max the extended edition?

Hard to say. It went on HBO Now in November 2016 as the theatrical cut, but Sucker Punch Extended is on HBO Now right now.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Roth posted:

I think for me I was into it because it reminded me of, like, b-tier PS2 action games.

Ones that are more into having stylish action than being a strong narrative experience.

I mean I can kind of see that. There's a forgotten video game called Dead to Rights and the cutscenes in that game are basically Sucker Punch, but for John Woo Hong Kong Cop Action. You might enjoy it.

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I mean I can kind of see that. There's a forgotten video game called Dead to Rights and the cutscenes in that game are basically Sucker Punch, but for John Woo Hong Kong Cop Action. You might enjoy it.

I actually own a copy!

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007




Dead to Rights owned

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


https://twitter.com/TheNiceCast_/st...4192425985?s=19

He's started posting in color

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



He did a 3 hour podcast with The Nice Cast and Ray Fisher the other day. They said it will be released soon.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Mr. Apollo posted:





Also, Snyder said he’s personally putting together the trailers for it.

Omg we could actually get a better version than even the JL that would have been released before the tragedy struck Snyder's family

I remember, before he left and it was reshot by a total hack, JL looked like it was still going to be heavily compromised by the studio's desire to appease the fan reaction to the previous 2 movies, just as Beavis itself was compromised by the reaction to Mos. Like that shot of the vagrant with the 'i tried' sign was always in there.

We still may end up with that of course, I don't want to get my hopes up, but oh lordy the possibility!

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

In a stunning twist the Snyder cut mostly is about the I Tried-hobo and his daily misery, until Superman and the rest of the team randomly show up to give him 30 million dollars.

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Grendels Dad posted:

In a stunning twist the Snyder cut mostly is about the I Tried-hobo and his daily misery, until Superman and the rest of the team randomly show up to give him 30 million dollars.

Ben Afflek is inexplicably replaced with RobPat

MacheteZombie
Feb 4, 2007




Grendels Dad posted:

In a stunning twist the Snyder cut mostly is about the I Tried-hobo and his daily misery, until Superman and the rest of the team randomly show up to give him 30 million dollars.

The Russian Family is replaced by the hobo assassins from john wick

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


MacheteZombie posted:

The Russian Family is replaced by the hobo assassins from john wick

They are then replaced by the hobo assassin from The Raid 2.

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



Injustice 2 came out around the same time as Justice League and any random fatality looks rendered better than the Steppenwolf death scene.

Necrothatcher
Mar 26, 2005






Fun Shoe

I wonder how much money they threw at Joss Whedon to take on such an obviously doomed job.

HUNDU THE BEAST GOD
Sep 14, 2007

everything is yours


John Wick of Dogs posted:

Picard was actually everything that people accuse Zack Snyder movies of being

The pitched premise of Picard (what's basically in the teaser) is so much better than what that disappointment turned out to be.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I guess my biggest problem with the movie is the fact that the action is completely decontextualized and presented as a fantasy metaphor that reveals nothing about the characters and only thinly aligns with the plot. I will try to elaborate.

The throughline between the action scenes and Sucker Punch is almost non-existent. I mean, there is a line - it's not an incoherent movie. But it's so tenuous; so thin. Ok it's time for the team to steal a map, so we'll have them...storm the trenches fighting steampunk Teutonic zombies in a faux WW1 to get a map? I mean yes, there are links there, but they are very circuitous or even nonexistent. One of the characters is always the "pilot" type, but how could piloting a jump-jetted steammech or an AC-130 possibly relate to that plan? How does that relate to her being a weak-willed simp who gives up her friends in the real world? I mean, we have seen that character in the Magnificent Seven, we know how to execute action with a weak character, and yet there's not an inkling of it.

I will say that the action setups are nutso and executed well and I sincerely love them. Show me that clip of that AC-130 absolute deaking a fuckin' dragon and you've got my attention. The actresses move and fight well although I do not think each of them has enough of an individual "style". But the real failure is that lack of context. It's totally free-floating, nothing is revealed by the characters through the action, the scenes exist to be cool and once they are over we're back to the madhouse with a box checked off. And so with this sort of disassociation from the "real" narrative, the scenes ultimately become what people say Snyder is all the time - meaningless spectacle - because the two world of the movie (madhouse and fantasy) are so misaligned.

There's a scene with Sweet Pea early on that's emblematic of the core theme reflected throughout film that contextualizes the elaborate fantasy action set pieces in a way that's not so tenuous/thin imo. It's when she's complaining about her performance being about a lobotomized patient to Madame Gorski; she suggests to change her stage dance to be something more "commercial" because the whole point of the show is to "turn people on" as she says. It's obvious Sweet Pea's frustratingly referring to the film's narrative layer that takes place in a mental institution being a joke, and that isn't what people want/paid to see. The action set pieces are super metatextual in that sense, and I think that's an interesting enough approach to justify all the hyperreal visualizations, giving them a bit of weight outside of them just being plot metaphors.

Afterall, the use of different narrative layers being planes of reality that Snyder uses to tell a bulk of the film's story is what makes Sucker Punch unique. The questions Snyder raises by doing this is what do audiences really want to see? What are they expecting? Do they want to see these characters actually undergo sound-therapy in drab real time? Or do they want to see those same characters slay sci-fi orcs with machine guns and swords? Obviously Snyder knows the audience expects the latter, lol. And I thought that was a neat way to express this sentiment of audience expectation.

When Sweet Pea criticizes Baby Doll's performance after seeing her dance for the first time, she says, "All that gyrating and moaning... a dance should be about more than titillation. Mine is personal, it says who I am. What the heck does yours say?" The insane action being representative of Baby Doll's dances is both hilarious and great in that sense, at least to me. It's easier to digest that narrative layer as Snyder's critique of the typical action you'd see from like a Whedon venture in that regard, and it also 100% owns imo because of how true it rings.

[edit] grammar

teagone fucked around with this message at 19:40 on May 22, 2020

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Necrothatcher posted:

I wonder how much money they threw at Joss Whedon to take on such an obviously doomed job.

They absolutely did not think it was doomed. They thought that Whedon had fixed the movie because, like fools, they take what the loudest people on the Internet say at face value (remember Snakes on a Plane?) BvS was too long, and too gloomy, and Superman didn't smile enough, and they fixed all that so wham pow good movie and big money time! And by a certain metric that was true, it does have a better audience rating than BvS by any metric. But for whatever reason people couldn't be bothered to show up and it didn't have any legs, turns out a sloppy Marvel pastiche is not a guaranteed money-maker.

People do not actually know what they want. and the Snyder Cut is by no means a guaranteed win. It could be a big ole mess itself. But at least it will be a mess in that Zack Snyder way, where you will see the interesting idea he was going for and how he fell short, instead of a garbage frankenmovie stuffed with rushed and phoned-in filler.

teagone posted:

When Sweet Pea criticizes Baby Doll's performance after seeing her dance for the first time, she says, "All that gyrating and moaning... a dance should be about more than titillation. Mine is personal, it says who I am. What the heck does yours say?" The insane action being representative of Baby Doll's dances is both hilarious and great in that sense, at least to me. It's easier to digest that narrative layer as Snyder's critique of the typical action you'd see from like Whedon venture in that regard, and it also 100% owns imo because of how true it rings.

I 100% get what you're saying and even agree with the critique. It actually is a successful critique. But it's also supposed to be an action movie as well. The reason that the "sucker punch" doesn't land is that the feint doesn't work. The action part is simply decontextualized too much to be successful IMO. And the dialogue, while snappy and revelatory, is not the load-bearing part of the film.

Snyder set himself a difficult task, I think: make a movie that is a satisfying action movie that then at the end hits you with the revelation that you've been participating in a gross exploitative patriarchal tableau. Incredibly hard to pull that off, I don't think he succeeds. I give him major props for trying though.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 19:40 on May 22, 2020

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

A DAILY DOSE
OF OLD SHOOTERS


PLAY NOW MY LORD



Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

like fools, they take what the loudest people on the Internet say at face value (remember Snakes on a Plane?)

I feel like this is a pretty bad comparison, honestly, because without the meme stuff, Snakes on a Plane would be barely above Asylum tier and would have probably been forgotten by everybody. People only remember that movie because of Samuel L. Jackson going "I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE MOTHER loving SNAKES ON THIS MOTHER loving PLANE."

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


WeedlordGoku69 posted:

I feel like this is a pretty bad comparison, honestly, because without the meme stuff, Snakes on a Plane would be barely above Asylum tier and would have probably been forgotten by everybody. People only remember that movie because of Samuel L. Jackson going "I HAVE HAD IT WITH THESE MOTHER loving SNAKES ON THIS MOTHER loving PLANE."

Funnily enough, this was added in post because literally everyone said "Sam Jackson had better say 'I have had it with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking plane' at some point" and the producers were like "oh poo poo!" and added that scene.

WeedlordGoku69
Feb 11, 2015

A DAILY DOSE
OF OLD SHOOTERS


PLAY NOW MY LORD



Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Funnily enough, this was added in post because literally everyone said "Sam Jackson had better say 'I have had it with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking plane' at some point" and the producers were like "oh poo poo!" and added that scene.

Yeah, it's basically the opposite of stuff like JL and Rise of Skywalker: what they originally had planned was mediocre at best, and the internet came up with the wide bulk of the stuff about the movie that actually owned.

e: My point is, really, that listening to the internet is unpredictable rather than always smart or always dumb. Sometimes the internet has a point, like with Snakes on a Plane, and listening to them turns a movie that would've sucked into something kind of special. Sometimes they're instead a bunch of brainwormed lunatics that want to destroy something good. You really have to take it case by case and consider both what they're suggesting, specifically, and the quality of what you're already making.

WeedlordGoku69 fucked around with this message at 19:48 on May 22, 2020

Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Funnily enough, this was added in post because literally everyone said "Sam Jackson had better say 'I have had it with these motherfucking snakes on this motherfucking plane' at some point" and the producers were like "oh poo poo!" and added that scene.

Another QCS success story

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

WeedlordGoku69 posted:

Yeah, it's basically the opposite of stuff like JL and Rise of Skywalker: what they originally had planned was mediocre at best, and the internet came up with the wide bulk of the stuff about the movie that actually owned.

e: My point is, really, that listening to the internet is unpredictable rather than always smart or always dumb. Sometimes the internet has a point, like with Snakes on a Plane, and listening to them turns a movie that would've sucked into something kind of special. Sometimes they're instead a bunch of brainwormed lunatics that want to destroy something good. You really have to take it case by case and consider both what they're suggesting, specifically, and the quality of what you're already making.

As much as I love TLJ, I think most of what the internet came up with for the sequels really did end up being much cooler than what Disney churned out. Finn leading a First Order revolt as an ex-Stormtrooper turned Jedi is a super interesting plot thread to develop from. What a shame.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Snyder set himself a difficult task, I think: make a movie that is a satisfying action movie that then at the end hits you with the revelation that you've been participating in a gross exploitative patriarchal tableau. Incredibly hard to pull that off, I don't think he succeeds. I give him major props for trying though.

Yeah, I don't disagree with this. Snyder tried real hard, but the film muddies up its message a fair bit, and is absolutely clunky in its delivery. Still, it works well enough for me and I appreciate the film since it tried something wildly different.

Bongo Bill
Jan 17, 2012

From my point of view, the Jedi are evil. But what really is... evil?

Online is a land of contrasts.

Tuxedo Catfish
Mar 17, 2007

You've got guts! Come to my village, I'll buy you lunch.


Detective No. 27 posted:

It's tough to pinpoint what WB's strategy is because they've been so inconsistent.

These companies produce better films when they don't know what they're doing, because as soon as they do they just narrow it down to an inoffensive formula.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


WeedlordGoku69 posted:

e: My point is, really, that listening to the internet is unpredictable rather than always smart or always dumb.

Oh I agree with that.

I honestly think that Joker made a billion because it's a power fantasy. People keep focusing on the dark tone and audiences saying it's a-ok to make dark superhero movies but the fact of the matter is that power fantasies are easy to like. For all it's grim grittiness Joker is the story of a pissed off little guy who punishes the people who've aggrieved him and triggers an uprising. It's a power fantasy. Whereas Snyder's Superman movies are largely what a burden it is to be Superman.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.



I think that's rather glib. Joker's protagonist is miserable from start to finish, and seems happiest when he's finally confined to a mental asylum where he has no power to affect anything. He's not even really the titular Joker, which is a growing unrest that he simply exemplifies for a moment when he kills a few drunken assailants who were incidentally rich.

Bongo Bill posted:

Online is a land of contrasts.
I'm not on Twitter and haven't followed the public debate over the Snyder Cut. It feels to me like the general public is now getting sucked down the rabbit hole that used to be the domain of a certain type of weird kid online, who projects their politics and anxieties onto media and sort-of glosses over any actual reading of the film in favour of using it as source material for fanfic.

I'm a Snyder fan and glad that his cut will be released. On the other hand, this all plays into nerdism, the new religion where Capital is God and online fandom is how we beseech Him for aid. What's galling is that the same people who thought this was a good thing when it was, like, buying tickets to Lady Ghostbusters to support feminism, are now trying to identify Joker and #ReleaseTheSnyderCut with the alt-right. I'm deeply ambivalent about the whole thing.

Halloween Jack fucked around with this message at 20:40 on May 22, 2020

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


I don't think it's glib, but I do think it's reductive. I'll try to elaborate. The misery is necessary for the fantasy. The catharsis of that misery is what gives it power. It's a nihilistic power fantasy because of course he's caught and going to the big house afterwards, but that's part of the fantasy. Having the guts to flame out and let that heat burn your enemies alive.

The traditional Superman is, on the surface, a much nicer power fantasy.

Megaman's Jockstrap fucked around with this message at 20:46 on May 22, 2020

pospysyl
Nov 10, 2012

SO EMBARRASSING



Part of the deal with Sucker Punch is that it tries to implicate the audience. Baby Doll's dances are meant to distract various bad guys so her friends can steal stuff they need to escape, so when you're meant to enjoy the action scenes while the bad guys enjoy Baby Doll's dances you're syllogistically entangled with their gross, exploitative behavior. My problem is that the action scenes aren't actually enjoyable enough to make me feel titillated, so it all comes off as a cheap trick. I wonder if not using the action scenes and just showing off the dances would have worked better, but then the movie actually would be exploiting the actresses. (I think there's one dance we actually do get to see, but it's been a while since I've seen the movie.)

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

pospysyl posted:

Part of the deal with Sucker Punch is that it tries to implicate the audience. Baby Doll's dances are meant to distract various bad guys so her friends can steal stuff they need to escape, so when you're meant to enjoy the action scenes while the bad guys enjoy Baby Doll's dances you're syllogistically entangled with their gross, exploitative behavior. My problem is that the action scenes aren't actually enjoyable enough to make me feel titillated, so it all comes off as a cheap trick. I wonder if not using the action scenes and just showing off the dances would have worked better, but then the movie actually would be exploiting the actresses. (I think there's one dance we actually do get to see, but it's been a while since I've seen the movie.)

We see snippets of all their dances during the musical number in the extended cut.

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Shut up and die like an aviator.

Oh man, I’m glad Cirian Hinds in coming back for this. He’s one my favorite actors.

I remember when The Sum of All Fears came out I heard an NPR interview with him about how he took Russian courses so that he could properly deliver all his lines in actual Russian rather than just with a goofy accent.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

https://twitter.com/HarryJLennix/st...920905849147392

[edit] I wonder if Snyder also pitched a Flashpoint live-action series to the WB execs as an eventual follow up to whatever they end up doing with JL because I refuse to believe that he didn't just cast Lauren Cohen and Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Martha and Thomas Wayne for no reason.

teagone fucked around with this message at 21:07 on May 22, 2020

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Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

Tuxedo Catfish posted:

These companies produce better films when they don't know what they're doing, because as soon as they do they just narrow it down to an inoffensive formula.

Definitely.

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