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Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Regarding Sucker Punch, I agree that its action exists in a very awkward space where it's way too abstract and detached.

This discussion actually made me think about Inception, which is a pretty obviously related concept and I think I got some of the same feelings from the way it used its big setpieces. To me it felt like the disjointedness of the dreams in Inception is doing a very similar thing where they're kinda winking and saying "welp, time to do a snowy ski chase scene. why? because it works!" and I ended up feeling completely detached from a lot of its action.

I do find myself much more interested in giving Sucker Punch a rewatch than Inception though, I've never seen the extended version.

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Roth
Jul 9, 2016


Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists?

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

Crook County

teagone posted:

https://twitter.com/HarryJLennix/st...920905849147392

[edit] I wonder if Snyder also pitched a Flashpoint live-action series to the WB execs as an eventual follow up to whatever they end up doing with JL because I refuse to believe that he didn't just cast Lauren Cohen and Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Martha and Thomas Wayne for no reason.

I hope Martian Manhunter cycles through a few different faces so they can bring in David Harewood for a quick shot.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Roth posted:

Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists?

Richard Lester?

Burkion
May 10, 2012

Changeman! And Not A Moment Too Soon!


Roth posted:

Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists?

As it exists I don't think it's as good as it could have been but that's not really the point. It just makes me thankful this is getting a proper release

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I don't think it's glib, but I do think it's reductive. I'll try to elaborate. The misery is necessary for the fantasy. The catharsis of that misery is what gives it power. It's a nihilistic power fantasy because of course he's caught and going to the big house afterwards, but that's part of the fantasy. Having the guts to flame out and let that heat burn your enemies alive.

The traditional Superman is, on the surface, a much nicer power fantasy.

Suffering is absolutely part of power fantasies, otherwise Jesus wouldn't be such a big deal in our world today.

But there are degrees of suffering and Joker seemed to delve too deeply into the undignified end to hold up as a power fantasy. Like, Joker is loving pathetic, and he knows it. His whole struggle is really lovely, because it shouldn't have happened in a world that even approaches being just. Pushing back against that isn't the realization of a power fantasy, it's still too deep down in the poo poo. He gets to kill a lovely talk show host we get to know for a minute and a half.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I guess my biggest problem with the movie is the fact that the action is completely decontextualized and presented as a fantasy metaphor that reveals nothing about the characters and only thinly aligns with the plot. I will try to elaborate.

[...]

The throughline between the action scenes and Sucker Punch is almost non-existent. I mean, there is a line - it's not an incoherent movie. But it's so tenuous; so thin. Ok it's time for the team to steal a map, so we'll have them...storm the trenches fighting steampunk Teutonic zombies in a faux WW1 to get a map? I mean yes, there are links there, but they are very circuitous or even nonexistent.

It certainly could have been conveyed better, but one of the big jokes of the film is that the fantasy antagonists (ghouls, orks, robots...) are almost completely arbitrary. The dances are, after all, primarily ‘for’ the diegetic male audiences.

So, for example, the scene with the robot drones on the train is characterization for the horrible chef character. He is, for whatever reason, mesmerized by the idea of humanity crushing these uppity subhumanoid machines. Part of this is of course the idea that the women are giving themselves up to protect him (hence the weird rage when they fail).

The analogy isn’t really to The Matrix, because you never forget for a moment that the female characters are, diegetically, actresses - pretending to fight.

Grendels Dad
Mar 5, 2011

Popular culture has passed you by.

SuperMechagodzilla posted:

It certainly could have been conveyed better, but one of the big jokes of the film is that the fantasy antagonists (ghouls, orks, robots...) are almost completely arbitrary. The dances are, after all, primarily ‘for’ the diegetic male audiences.

So, for example, the scene with the robot drones on the train is characterization for the horrible chef character. He is, for whatever reason, mesmerized by the idea of humanity crushing these uppity subhumanoid machines. Part of this is of course the idea that the women are giving themselves up to protect him (hence the weird rage when they fail).

The analogy isn’t really to The Matrix, because you never forget for a moment that the female characters are, diegetically, actresses - pretending to fight.

Right, and I think part of where the concept behind the whole movie fails is that you have to keep straight who fights whom for what reason. I'm not sure I even realized they fight the robots for the chef before I read this post, I think it's very easy to interpret the action scenes as this kind of very general generic struggle to achieve their goals.

roffels
Jul 27, 2004

Yo Taxi!

Roth posted:

Is there anyone especially mad that the Richard Donner cut of Superman 2 exists?

Even ignoring the practical limitations (unfilmed footage), it's a bit of a disappointment that there wasn't more care put into it such as striking an original score, better editing, or effects that match the era - but I'm grateful to have it. I was one of the nerds hoping to see the Donner cut for ages, and it still felt special seeing unseen vintage footage of Reeve and Kidder interacting.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

It certainly could have been conveyed better, but one of the big jokes of the film is that the fantasy antagonists (ghouls, orks, robots...) are almost completely arbitrary. The dances are, after all, primarily ‘for’ the diegetic male audiences.

So, for example, the scene with the robot drones on the train is characterization for the horrible chef character. He is, for whatever reason, mesmerized by the idea of humanity crushing these uppity subhumanoid machines. Part of this is of course the idea that the women are giving themselves up to protect him (hence the weird rage when they fail).

I agree but I think you got to the heart of my critique there. Like you said, dancing for the chef suddenly reveals that he's mesmerized by the idea of humanity crushing subhumanoid robots. But nowhere in the text is he EVER shown to have this trait for any reason at all! You just have to sort of accept that this was his secret desire and Babydoll is fulfilling it for him. And I think you can, it's not an incoherent film and it plays by its own rules, but that kind of disconnect is why I feel the movie doesn't work as well as it should and why I've described the fantasy sequences - as beautiful and well-executed as they are - as "free floating". The completely arbitrary fantasy antagonists are part of that - but the setting is also completely arbitrary, the technology used is completely arbitrary, etc. There doesn't seem to be an attempt at cohesiveness - which I understand is part of the critique, this is nerd catnip, hot gals with guns and mechs in classic nerd scenarios like sword-and-sorcery, steampunk war, or sci-fi planet, but the problem is the thematic disconnect that it brings. Again I stress that i think the critique of the movie is valid, but the stated goal of the film - right there in the title - is to be a "Sucker Punch", make the viewer drop their guard and then get hit by the ending. And I think that punch gets deflected, at least in my case, because even in my first watch through I never dropped my guard.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005



Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I guess my biggest problem with the movie is the fact that the action is completely decontextualized and presented as a fantasy metaphor that reveals nothing about the characters and only thinly aligns with the plot. I will try to elaborate.

I think the most successful action films are those that reveal something about the character through the action. For an extremely easy example, look at the Matrix, which took the sort of gravity-defying Wushu wirework and used it to support the metaphor that the characters were hacking reality. There was a direct line there between this extremely thematic idea of "transcending reality" and the floaty kung fu. There was a direct line between "we're fighting Agents of the System" and literally punching identically-besuited Men In Black.

Take the Running Man. The action here is a game show, but of course the game show is all rigged, it's all fake. The audience doesn't see the "real" action, it's filtered through the lense of the camera. But Ben Richards is so powerful and intelligent that even the Network (and by implication, the Government's) tricks can't work, and his personal individual victories against the rigged system inspire a literal revolution. (It's also extremely funny that the Captain America analogue of the movie refuses to fight him - "real America" supports Richards)

The throughline between the action scenes and Sucker Punch is almost non-existent. I mean, there is a line - it's not an incoherent movie. But it's so tenuous; so thin. Ok it's time for the team to steal a map, so we'll have them...storm the trenches fighting steampunk Teutonic zombies in a faux WW1 to get a map? I mean yes, there are links there, but they are very circuitous or even nonexistent. One of the characters is always the "pilot" type, but how could piloting a jump-jetted steammech or an AC-130 possibly relate to that plan? How does that relate to her being a weak-willed simp who gives up her friends in the real world? I mean, we have seen that character in the Magnificent Seven, we know how to execute action with a weak character, and yet there's not an inkling of it.

I will say that the action setups are nutso and executed well and I sincerely love them. Show me that clip of that AC-130 absolute deaking a fuckin' dragon and you've got my attention. The actresses move and fight well although I do not think each of them has enough of an individual "style". But the real failure is that lack of context. It's totally free-floating, nothing is revealed by the characters through the action, the scenes exist to be cool and once they are over we're back to the madhouse with a box checked off. And so with this sort of disassociation from the "real" narrative, the scenes ultimately become what people say Snyder is all the time - meaningless spectacle - because the two world of the movie (madhouse and fantasy) are so misaligned.

My own dumb obvservation, I recall when I first saw SP many years ago, I recall realizing that there was a special significance to the fight scenes, but unable to pinpoint exactly what it was , until I realized that the red thread connecting all of them was that they were set pieces popular in nerd culture. Samurai Anime, zombie nazis, fantasy orcs and dragons, sci fi robots, all variations of genres super popular with your nerdy male audience. And these action scenes inevitably occured while the women were being sexually exploited by men, hence I interpreted it as women fighting against the inherent sexism in these genres perpetuated by male nerds (doesn't matter if your woman is "strong" or "competent" in fights if she's being fetishised or sexualized,) using the only weapon available to them (their sexuality). But using sex to fight sexism is ultimately doomed to failure because you're still playing by the rules of sexist men. The only way sweety pea succeeded was by sacrificing herself, an act of love.

There is no direct correlation between the action of the fight scenes and the "real" scenes because that was not the point of it. They are not really related in that sense, as I interpreted it.

All in my own very basic opinion, of course.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Grendels Dad posted:

Right, and I think part of where the concept behind the whole movie fails is that you have to keep straight who fights whom for what reason. I'm not sure I even realized they fight the robots for the chef before I read this post, I think it's very easy to interpret the action scenes as this kind of very general generic struggle to achieve their goals.

Each fantasy set piece has elements that tie it back to the brothel's narrative layer. They're not super hard to pick up on, but they're also very abstractly represented, i.e., the fire crystals being the lighter.

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


Grendels Dad posted:

Right, and I think part of where the concept behind the whole movie fails is that you have to keep straight who fights whom for what reason. I'm not sure I even realized they fight the robots for the chef before I read this post, I think it's very easy to interpret the action scenes as this kind of very general generic struggle to achieve their goals.

To pinpoint the appeal, I say Snyder accomplished the “impossible” task of making an anti-war film.

Like, the stuff about the treatment of actresses gets most of the attention, but the bigger criticism to me is its satire of nerd-faschismus. It presents the basic scenarios of, like, Lord Of The Rings in such a way that you’re almost completely disinvested. So what’s left is just to appreciate the skill of the performers and artists while asking why exactly nerds are so obsessed with superheroes slaughtering orks, hyper-nazis, and robot drones.

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



teagone posted:

https://twitter.com/HarryJLennix/st...920905849147392

[edit] I wonder if Snyder also pitched a Flashpoint live-action series to the WB execs as an eventual follow up to whatever they end up doing with JL because I refuse to believe that he didn't just cast Lauren Cohen and Jeffrey Dean Morgan as Martha and Thomas Wayne for no reason.



I remember when Snyder first posted about Martian Manhunter and so many people were saying “oh he’s just making stuff up since we’ll never see the SC”.

He posted the MM scene back in early October so it was before WB called him about the SC.

It’s interesting to look through his Vero feed and see how after early November he really ramped up the JL posting. Obviously that was after he got the call.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Wait I must've forgot about this... General Swanwick is Martian Manhunter?! E: I remember now, there was a storyboard he posted to that effect. If that makes it into ZSJL I'll lose my drat mind.

Roman
Aug 8, 2002



McSpanky posted:

Wait I must've forgot about this... General Swanwick is Martian Manhunter?!
IIRC he was supposed to talk to Martha and Lois in the original version of their scene, and when he left he morphed into MM

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.



SuperMechagodzilla posted:

Whedon is not a talented artist.
You know, you're known for sticking up for Bay and Snyder, two directors who bring out this weird nerd psychosis wherein they're jock dudebro chads who trip over a barbell down some stairs and somehow have a blockbuster movie reel in their hands at the bottom of the stairs.

So I'm curious about your take on Whedon who is actually a hack but, perhaps because he's a hack, exemplifies a major style of blockbuster filmmaking.

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



Snyder said “Here’s something you probably didn’t know. I was able to shoot all of it except for the Harry Lennox side. It was my intention to do that in LA”

Agent Rush
Aug 30, 2008

You looked, Junker!

Wow, there really is something about Snyder's movies that just makes some people refuse to actually watch them as opposed to ranting about imagined flaws and bad politics isn't there? It's almost impressive, in a terrible way.

Glad they're actually releasing the SnyderCut of JL, it'll give me an excuse to finally see MoS. I could make it a double feature with the BvS ultimate cut, I only saw the theatrical before.

teagone
Jun 10, 2003

That was pretty intense, huh?

Watching Man of Steel and BvS Ultimate Edition back-to-back is such a great movie experience. Highly recommended.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Man of Steel is great. Best cape movie and is an actual good movie movie.


(I don't consider Blade a cape movie even though it's "technically" a superhero film.)

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Man of Steel is great. Best cape movie and is an actual good movie movie.


(I don't consider Blade a cape movie even though it's "technically" a superhero film.)

His jacket is very capelike

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.


Mr. Apollo posted:

Snyder said “Here’s something you probably didn’t know. I was able to shoot all of it except for the Harry Lennox side. It was my intention to do that in LA”



I still maintain that whatever we get from all this will be way lamer than just a bunch of storyboards with Zack Snyder making all the sound effects with his mouth

Mr. Apollo
Nov 8, 2000



RBA Starblade posted:

I still maintain that whatever we get from all this will be way lamer than just a bunch of storyboards with Zack Snyder making all the sound effects with his mouth
Honestly, that was one of the best parts of the watch parties.

Roman
Aug 8, 2002



With the talk of JL possibly being cut into episodes, I would live if they combined all the films - from MoS to BvS to JL into one big series. ZS expressed some interest in a big "supercut" in the past.

https://wegotthiscovered.com/movies...atman-superman/

Gorn Myson
Aug 8, 2007








How many dream sequences will the Snyder cut have?

loving loads I hope, hes nailed every single one of them in the first two movies. I just finished BvS again and that Kevin Costner scene hits me harder every time.

Martman
Nov 20, 2006

SEXY... defines my posts and my ride


Gorn Myson posted:

How many dream sequences will the Snyder cut have?

loving loads I hope, hes nailed every single one of them in the first two movies. I just finished BvS again and that Kevin Costner scene hits me harder every time.
Brainwashed Superman will be stuck in a strange dream where he has a cool mustache

John Wick of Dogs
Mar 4, 2017

The plan here is to reinvent Rin Tin Tin as a modern action star, the John Wick of dogs.


I didn't think the Costner scene was a dream. I thought that was him actually communing with his spirit

Ghost Leviathan
Mar 2, 2017



Something very Silver Age about 'oh yeah, Superman can hike up into the spirit realm'

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.


Gorn Myson posted:

How many dream sequences will the Snyder cut have?

loving loads I hope, hes nailed every single one of them in the first two movies. I just finished BvS again and that Kevin Costner scene hits me harder every time.

The film will end with Snyder waking up, rolling out of bed, thinking for a moment, then grabbing a piece of paper and starting to write.

The last shot is a slow zoom in until you can see the top of the page - "MARVEL'S AVENGERS"

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005






Martman posted:

Brainwashed Superman will be stuck in a strange dream where he has a cool mustache

Which becomes a nightmare where his lower face transforms into John Travolta's

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



Dream sequences are great because they can get really weird with it.

Brazilianpeanutwar
Aug 27, 2015

Spent my walletfull, on a jpeg, desolate, will croberts make a whale of me yet?


RBA Starblade posted:

The film will end with Snyder waking up, rolling out of bed, thinking for a moment, then grabbing a piece of paper and starting to write.

The last shot is a slow zoom in until you can see the top of the page - "MARVEL'S AVENGERS"

“HOWARD THE DUCK”.

Robot Style
Jul 5, 2009



Gorn Myson posted:

I just finished BvS again and that Kevin Costner scene hits me harder every time.

It was even good when Terrio reused it in Star Wars.

Vintersorg
Mar 3, 2004

PRESIDENT OF THE OFFICIAL BRENDAN FRASER FAN CLUB


I just don’t loving get it. How can people be this ignorant. From a discord server I’m in.

Julius CSAR
Oct 3, 2007

Shut up and die like an aviator.

RBA Starblade posted:

The film will end with Snyder waking up, rolling out of bed, thinking for a moment, then grabbing a piece of paper and starting to write.

The last shot is a slow zoom in until you can see the top of the page - "MARVEL'S AVENGERS"

How about pull out to show a young autistic boy in the middle of Kansas holding a snow globe

Snowman_McK
Jan 31, 2010
ASK ME ABOUT MY SELF-PUBLISHED WARHAMMER FANFICTION AND MY KNIFE COLLECTION


I love Sucker Punch chat. My reading (which i think I'm cribbing from someone else here) is that it's about the inherent limitations of girl power in genre fiction. sure, they're empowered warrior women, even as they're fighting soldiers who don't want to be there, an opressed religious/ethnic minority (the orcs) or slave machines rebelling, but even as they're empowered within those scenes, they're both still trapped in an exploitative system. And, if, you incorporate the backstories for those fantasy worlds, just doing more oppression laterally. It's both a critique of the faux empowerment and a critique of the 'more female guards' school of liberalism.

It's also about how real stories involving women aren't allowed to be told in hollywood. they have to be sexed up and then be transformed into sexy action films.

GoldenGun
Oct 21, 2005

In heaven everything is fine


Vintersorg posted:

I just don’t loving get it. How can people be this ignorant. From a discord server I’m in.



Lol you think that’s bad? This is from a gaming forum I frequently visit:





I don’t even know how to start to engage with this stuff.

ElNarez
Nov 4, 2009


GoldenGun posted:

I don’t even know how to start to engage with this stuff.

the correct answer, which is the least satisfying answer, is "don't"; you can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into in the first place, plus you already won! the snyder cut is real, and it's going to be good, because his last two Superman movies were good

nothing else should matter

and then, someday, for seemingly no reason, one of the Film Discourse thought leaders, seeing how the wind is blowing, will say Snyder is good, and everyone will follow

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Srice
Sep 11, 2011



Yea to be honest if it's a community where folks can't believe that someone genuinely likes a particular director/movie, that they must be a contrarian because they can't even perceive of someone liking it?

It's not a community worth being a part of.

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