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garycoleisgod
Sep 27, 2004
Boo

Neurolimal posted:



Obviously, if you hate video essays and people who make videos on youtube, you probably wont like it. I personally don't get the weird seemingly forumwide hate for "what we do, but in an audiovisual medium and with ad revenue".

For me personally a big problem I have with video essays is that the people making them have editing skills, the ability to record good clean audio and the business sense to get partnerships and sponsorships. But crucially, they lack anything interesting or relevant to say.

Imagine a poo poo-post with a budget and that's what I think of a lot of video essays. To keep it to movies and on recent topics, any youtuber who quotes screen-writing books like "Save the Cat" and others in their video you can safely say is an idiot and their video can be ignored, much like my posts lol.

I don't include Ellis in this, I think her videos are pretty good. And nobody is going to have a 100% success rate. Even our own hbomberguy did a video about how Dark Souls 2 is good, so you gotta forgive and forget a bit.

But for the love of god, have something to say. And then there is other things like skits in the videos because the youtuber is a frustrated film-maker and this is the only way to get that out of their system and over blown negative reactions about bad media and it making them turn to drink or want to kill themselves and it's just so hacky and done to death. Find a new way to express dislike for media!

"Oh my god, I have to watch this Michael Bay film for my video. What have I done?" . It's like a joke, just without the humour.

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ADBOT LOVES YOU

DrVenkman
Dec 27, 2005

I think he can hear you, Ray.


Also, realistically, how much do people think Snyder is on Twitter? Or on forums? Any time it's been brought up he has said it's bad and people shouldn't do it. People act like he sees it all and isn't saying anything. It's a common mistake for very online people to assume that everyone is as very online as they are.

If people of any fandom want to be human garbage then let them, that's their mistake. It's a choice they're making to be that way, Snyder or anyone else telling them to knock it off won't change that because they'll just find an excuse to carry on their behaviour. It's already happened with Snyder when the worst of the Comicsgate people decided that he's just capitulated to the 'woke leftists'.

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

Analysis reveals forum operating at 37% efficiency. Would you like to assume command?

Chairman Capone
Dec 17, 2008



This is a bit tangential, but bear with me - I came across this post on Twitter on an upcoming book on video game landscapes:

https://twitter.com/Mathew__Clayton/status/1382648877766094851

The guy writing this post is not only the head of publishing at the place that's putting that book out, he also organizes a literature lecture series in the UK. And his response to seeing how a lot of video game scenes are based off a very famous nineteenth century painting is not to say that the game designers based their scene on the painting, but rather to say, "The similarities are uncanny." As if it's just a giant coincidence that these people working in a visual medium happened to reflect a famous work of visual art.

Seeing a guy who's ostensibly a professional adult versed in at least some degree of academic knowledge make this weird leap of logic suddenly made me realize why a lot of YouTube critics or Twitter randos make that kind of assumption about Snyder, "Oh, he's a hack, but he happened to luck into this interesting imagery." If that mindset is so embedded everywhere to the extent this publisher and literature lecturer has it, I'm actually more forgiving of teenagers or film school dropouts having that mindset too.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


Chairman Capone posted:

This is a bit tangential, but bear with me - I came across this post on Twitter on an upcoming book on video game landscapes:

https://twitter.com/Mathew__Clayton/status/1382648877766094851

The guy writing this post is not only the head of publishing at the place that's putting that book out, he also organizes a literature lecture series in the UK. And his response to seeing how a lot of video game scenes are based off a very famous nineteenth century painting is not to say that the game designers based their scene on the painting, but rather to say, "The similarities are uncanny." As if it's just a giant coincidence that these people working in a visual medium happened to reflect a famous work of visual art.

Seeing a guy who's ostensibly a professional adult versed in at least some degree of academic knowledge make this weird leap of logic suddenly made me realize why a lot of YouTube critics or Twitter randos make that kind of assumption about Snyder, "Oh, he's a hack, but he happened to luck into this interesting imagery." If that mindset is so embedded everywhere to the extent this publisher and literature lecturer has it, I'm actually more forgiving of teenagers or film school dropouts having that mindset too.

The Witcher one I'm p sure is just someone recreating it outright ingame, by how jaggy that mountain's looking

2house2fly
Nov 14, 2012

You did a super job wrapping things up! And I'm not just saying that because I have to!

CD Projekt Red (the Witcher and Cyberpunk developers) make specific refs all the time so I wouldn't be surprised

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Chairman Capone posted:

Seeing a guy who's ostensibly a professional adult versed in at least some degree of academic knowledge make this weird leap of logic suddenly made me realize why a lot of YouTube critics or Twitter randos make that kind of assumption about Snyder, "Oh, he's a hack, but he happened to luck into this interesting imagery." If that mindset is so embedded everywhere to the extent this publisher and literature lecturer has it, I'm actually more forgiving of teenagers or film school dropouts having that mindset too.

Great post. There actually seems to be a weird cultural shift going on where a lot of the people in the top third of the "meritocracy" seems to honestly believe that everyone else is an ignoramus who doesn't have access to the exact same knowledge they do. Seems like they need to convince themselves that they're in the know and you aren't.

wyoming
Jun 7, 2010

Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.


Literally in the most popular game of all time

uncanny!

Detective No. 27
Jun 7, 2006



In 2017, I made Wanderer Above The Sea Of Fog my phone's lock screen wallpaper and then a week later they unveiled the Zelda Breath of the Wild cover art. That was a weird coincidence.

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


Neurolimal posted:

The bad faith reasoning is "it stuck on Sanders, we can really leverage this!"

The earnest good faith (which is probably still tied to bad faithers, in that they are making sense of a phenomenon that blatantly was disingenuous from people of high regard) reasoning liberals like Ellis believe is that the people who the fanbase coalesce around have some degree of authority in said fanbase, to a degree that they won't harm people they say "dont harass this person" about, and so have a moral imperative to do so; Snyder fans are notoriously sensitive, Zack Snyder should tell them to cool down.

Personally I'm skeptical that the kind of person of unsound enough mind to send people death threats would listen to a call not to send people death threats, regardless of how often said person declares "dont do this". Seems like a very 'fit of passion' impulse.

There’s an egotism that makes this go beyond a good/bad faith basis, as the handwringing must be met by a receptive audience to become a successful narrative.

Sanders ceded to detractors that his supporters were toxic by publicly disowning them. Subsequently, this did nothing but give further credence to the idea that Bernie supporters are actually malignant to U.S. politics at large, while worms like Pete Buttigieg pontificate about how Sanders’ bad aura bred and is therefore responsible for it.

When the U.K.’s Labour party was reported to have an anti-Semitic crisis within their ranks, Corbyn steadfastly refused to accept this framing, instead repeating that he and his party are against all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism, and do punish it accordingly. The media excoriated him for this, citing Corbyn’s non-capitulation as negative proof of Labour being rife with anti-Semitism.

It’s in this context that I question the premise that Ellis is benevolently giving Snyder leeway: she isn’t doing him favors because It’s precisely his pristine reputation (In anything that actually matters), that makes detractors believe even more fervently in the corrupting power of his work. I don’t think these people are under any illusion that what Snyder says will change their bad social media experience, but they definitely know that they need a person of authority to recognize their hardship by formally accepting the objective existence of this excessively toxic fanbase. Since this impetus remains regardless of whether the actors are doing so in good or bad faith, until Snyder is somehow able to end online trolling, it’s negative proof of their sneaking suspicion that he actually likes it when critics of his work get attacked online.

KVeezy3 fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Apr 16, 2021

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Lt. Danger posted:

not sure why writing small essays and making hour-long youtube videos is easier than just saying "sorry, didn't mean to offend, I didn't think my words through, I'll be more careful in future"

you don't even have to mean it, you can just lie and most people will then forget all about it

Who said it was "easier"? She thought it would be "better". Whether she was right or not is an entirely different discussion, but that's the discussion.

I think the video was better than I expected, all things considered. It's a legit breakdown of what she has said, and trying to provide context for those statements, while apologizing for those statements when it's clearly necessary. But I also think it was a bad idea to even bother making it in the first place. Like, she was never going to convince anyone who didn't like her with it, and anyone who already liked her would just be reinforced by it, so I don't know what she hoped to accomplish with it. Personal catharsis, maybe?

Timeless Appeal posted:

I watched the video because I've actually enjoyed some of Ellis's stuff, she's actually really kind to Zack Snyder for what's that worth and talks about how he seems like a really good person and actually makes a pretty good defense for why he didn't immediately speak out against some of his shittier fans. She basically makes the argument that considering all he went through, it's fair to not expect him to have the emotional bandwidth to deal with it.

But then she basically kinda maybe confirms that Mara Wilson and her dated but in a cagey way and that she was kind of lovely to her, but Mara has also been weirdly petty. And I stopped.

What? She doesn't even hint that her and Mara Wilson dated at all. In fact, she says they were friends, and she admits that part of how she hosed up that friendship was that she assumed Wilson was definitely straight, so when Wilson said she may be bisexual, she assumed Wilson was not and said so, which she regrets doing. I don't know how you could come away from the video assuming that she said she and Wilson dated.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


^ I think the none of your business thing and what's she's saying before that threw me off, but I think I misread it. I do kind of wish she just edited out all those partial quotes.^

Alternative View: Snyder capitalized on his fanbase to get the movie he wanted made and that's where the responsibility question comes into play. To be clear, what he did was entirely understandable as he went through both a traumatizing experience, was fired, and saw his friends who he really cares about be bullied and humiliated by a sexpest and then a studio try to gaslight them. And also just felt it was a good movie worth making. Snyder isn't fully passive though. He had q auote where he dismissed any concerns as total BS which is unfair to people legit being harassed. He then came around and disavowed those people which is the responsible thing to do which included not just randos sneaking into critics' mentions, but the Geeks + Gamers people who were really tying themselves to the movie's release, branding donations, hosting streams and such.

Ellis's point is that he seems like not just a good person, but a rare good Hollywood millionaire man in power, and that it's not fair to hold him responsible for his fans when he clearly has stuff going on in his life, and got involved when he understood some fo the shadier stuff.

Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 20:11 on Apr 16, 2021

Neurolimal
Nov 3, 2012


thrawn527 posted:

so I don't know what she hoped to accomplish with it. Personal catharsis, maybe?

I think she genuinely wanted to address that twitter thread, however bad faith, in full in a single video, in a way that the people willing to give her a chance would accept. That many of the people who demanded she apologize are now making "lmao didnt watch it, too long just apologize" tweets instead of, well, watching her apologize, just reinforces her opinion that Twitter enables a lot of bad faith actors who just want blood.

Like, the people who know her and might be concerned about the accusations probably wont balk at a long video from someone whos career is in long videos, and I think that's who she was aiming for. It's certainly swayed some people that I've seen elsewhere.

Patrick Spens posted:

Yo you went on this rant about someone paraphrasing someone else's argument. Chill the gently caress out.

In some fairness I have called Snyder fans thin skinned, and I still stand by that. I never made a call on if that thin skin was earned though; considering all the flak that Snyder fans have received, and going through two and a half movie releases of people going "wow bad, objectivism", on top of going back and unfairly interpreting movies like 300 (in which the film and comic are narrated by Leonidas' BFF, who is an indoctrinated spartan, who was not at the final battle, and is literally half-blind) just to craft a suitably right-wing narrative....understandably will make people defensive. I dont care for MoS or BvS all that much personally, but I can absolutely understand being sensitive in the face of that crap.

I mean, he's a hollywood liberal who was raised by weird christian scientists at their fundie compound, the attempts to cast him as a libertarian-fascist are just strange and uneccessary even from a critical eye.

Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Apr 16, 2021

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Timeless Appeal posted:

Alternative View: Snyder capitalized on his fanbase to get the movie he wanted made and that's where the responsibility question comes into play.

When we say somebody is responsible for someone else's behavior, what we generally mean is that there's some sort of thoroughline between what the leader says and what their followers do. For example, if I were a very famous celebrity and I went on TV and said "all people from Pittsburg are inhuman scum and should be exiled from the USA" and then somebody goes to Pittsburg and shoots a bunch of people and yells "I'm a huge MMJS fan, I listen to him all the time!" as they drag 'em away well then yeah, in a sense I am responsible for that. I created or exacerbated the mental conditions that existed there and might have given them the impetus to act. We all understand that dehumanizing people or pushing caste systems does put people in danger.

If ZS says "I really need my fans to contact Warner Bros and let them know you want my cut of a movie" and somebody says "that means I should send death threats to youtubers" there's zero relationship there between the message and the action. In this case the follower in question is maladjusted and also happens to be a Snyder fan, and anyone operating in good faith should acknowledge that.

The idea that if a leader mobilizes people to action and some number of followers also perform bad behaviors outside the scope of what is being asked the leader is somehow responsible is nuts. It's why American political groups take great pains to say "we need to change things by NONVIOLENT means" because of course if they say "bring this system down by any means necessary" they have opened themselves up to some nutter going on a mass shooting in their name and having a credible link to it.

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Timeless Appeal posted:

^ I think the none of your business thing and what's she's saying before that threw me off, but I think I misread it. I do kind of wish she just edited out all those partial quotes.^

That's fair. But I think she was just saying that it was a personal relationship they had, and while she'll address the now public part of it, anything beyond that is none of anyone else's business. Because it's not. They were friends, now they're not. She'll address the part that is now public, but beyond that, whatever.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.




Zack Snyder and Ayn Rand were in the closet making babies and I saw one of the babies and the baby looked at me.

Guy A. Person
May 23, 2003



Neurolimal posted:

I think she genuinely wanted to address that twitter thread, however bad faith, in full in a single video, in a way that the people willing to give her a chance would accept. That many of the people who demanded she apologize are now making "lmao didnt watch it, too long just apologize" tweets instead of, well, watching her apologize, just reinforces her opinion that Twitter enables a lot of bad faith actors who just want blood.

Like, the people who know her and might be concerned about the accusations probably wont balk at a long video from someone whos career is in long videos, and I think that's who she was aiming for. It's certainly swayed some people that I've seen elsewhere.

On the one hand, I think the hatred she was getting was way blown out of proportion, and she has made a few attempts to apologize (although the original twitter apology from what I recall was couched with some justification, which is not a great tactic).

I do think the idea that you should give her a view on her primary source of income as well as nearly 2 hours to hear her out -- especially if you are already wary of her and her motives -- is asking a bit much, so the mocking I've seen (mostly with dumb memes) isn't exactly out of line.

Of course Twitter takes what should be a reasonable back and forth here and makes it motherfucking nightmare land where there's probably been death and rape threats dished out to people on both sides, so honestly her decision to stay the gently caress off Twitter probably rates as the most sane thing any of us can do.

Rabelais D
Dec 11, 2012

ts'u nnu k'u k'o t'khye:
A demon doth defecate at thy door

Holy poo poo guys it's an overlong exercise in narcissism why is anyone even talking about it. It's all just me me me for over an hour. I got two minutes in. Here, sit down and watch my unnecessarily long discussion about myself while I gaze lovingly into mine own navel - I am a writer by the way - and yes do like and subscribe and sign up to my patreon.

People will complain about Snydercut being four hours and yet willingly consume this kind of egotistical tripe, the mind boggles

thrawn527
Mar 27, 2004

Thrawn/Pellaeon
Studying the art of terrorists
To keep you safe

Rabelais D posted:

Holy poo poo guys it's an overlong exercise in narcissism why is anyone even talking about it. It's all just me me me for over an hour. I got two minutes in. Here, sit down and watch my unnecessarily long discussion about myself while I gaze lovingly into mine own navel - I am a writer by the way - and yes do like and subscribe and sign up to my patreon.

People will complain about Snydercut being four hours and yet willingly consume this kind of egotistical tripe, the mind boggles

I mean, yeah, isn't that kind of the point? The length of someone's "overlong exercise in narcissism" doesn't matter, as long as the content works for you?

Like...why else are we here?

thrawn527 fucked around with this message at 21:41 on Apr 16, 2021

Rabelais D
Dec 11, 2012

ts'u nnu k'u k'o t'khye:
A demon doth defecate at thy door

Well I suppose the cinematic equivalent would be an eight hour film wherein Snyder includes at least two hours of himself deadlifting or whatever.

And four hours crying into the camera about 9/11

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

When we say somebody is responsible for someone else's behavior, what we generally mean is that there's some sort of thoroughline between what the leader says and what their followers do.
I think you're jumping to a conclusion that you're responsible for someone's behavior. If I'm hanging out with some friends and one of them says something misogynistic or racist, I'd say I have a responsibility to speak up. It may not change them as a person and it's not my fault that they suck, but it's still the right thing to do. It's not a really an apt conversation because as literally everyone relevant to this current line of conversation (People posting right now and Ellis) is saying, it's probably fair to assume that Snyder didn't really realize the shittier elements of the fandom were there. He saw people doing legit good things like donating money to suicide prevention after the unimaginable happened and help him make a movie that was torn from him. The comparison I'm making almost literally came true when Snyder realized what he was associating himself with Geeks + Gamers and actively made a statement distancing himself. That's the responsible thing to do and it would be kind of lovely if Snyder hadn't done that.

Blood Boils
Dec 27, 2006

Its not an S, on my planet it means QUIPS


Hair Elf

2house2fly posted:

Analysis reveals forum operating at 37% efficiency. Would you like to assume command?

Yes yes I would

Lock all non-snyderdome threads

ungulateman
Apr 18, 2012
Hello I am a person doing a thing via buttons. It's amazing what electronic singnals traveling through space can accomplish.

Makes ya think.

Purple m&ms are the best.

This action is irreversible

Lt. Danger
Dec 22, 2006

jolly good chaps we sure showed the hun



thrawn527 posted:

Who said it was "easier"? She thought it would be "better". Whether she was right or not is an entirely different discussion, but that's the discussion.

I think the video was better than I expected, all things considered. It's a legit breakdown of what she has said, and trying to provide context for those statements, while apologizing for those statements when it's clearly necessary. But I also think it was a bad idea to even bother making it in the first place. Like, she was never going to convince anyone who didn't like her with it, and anyone who already liked her would just be reinforced by it, so I don't know what she hoped to accomplish with it. Personal catharsis, maybe?

I was thinking more generally, past and present - the specific relevant example is the off-colour facetious remark about Snyder hating his mother, which received a blog post explaining how she was talking with a friend when she made that tweet and didn't think of it sans context, how she made it before news broke of Autumn's suicide so that was unintentional bad timing, and how Snyder's fans are crazy and abusive so they kinda deserve what they get etc., essentially arguing instead of apologising. this seems to also be her default reaction in other situations, possibly learned from being around white male middle-class nerds a lot

Ellis did address this a little in the video, saying she wanted to avoid giving false apologies and preferred to raise the level of discourse with honest and frank discussion. I think the flaw here relates to the above issue: an apology doesn't have to be a surrender or a repudiation of your opinions. apologies are social lubricant. sometimes the purpose of an apology is to show you acknowledge the existence of another person and the hurt they feel - like when you tread on someone's foot by accident and apologise, you don't have to couch it in a rational and logical explanation of why you're not guilty of assault

further to that is, as Ellis kinda touches on but doesn't quite connect, how Twitter is not a suitable platform to have a conversation between humans. she doesn't want to emulate PR firms and their empty apologies but PR is pretty much all you can do with Twitter, especially as a public figure or minor celebrity. you were never gonna "raise the discourse" on Twitter. she does comes to this conclusion eventually but it seems for different reasons

it feels like this is the first time she's ever considered the concept of, uh, "mob mentality" on social media, and perhaps a little embarrassing she only comes to it after being a victim of it, and after by her own admission participating in it previously. mentioned this elsewhere but Mark Fisher's Exiting the Vampire Castle is relevant - Ellis though thinks this is more a case of friendly-fire in the culture war between woke Twitter and the alt-right? regardless, she's better off out of it now, as we all would be

Lt. Danger fucked around with this message at 22:05 on Apr 16, 2021

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





Timeless Appeal posted:

I think you're jumping to a conclusion that you're responsible for someone's behavior. If I'm hanging out with some friends and one of them says something misogynistic or racist, I'd say I have a responsibility to speak up. It may not change them as a person and it's not my fault that they suck, but it's still the right thing to do. It's not a really an apt conversation because as literally everyone relevant to this current line of conversation (People posting right now and Ellis) is saying, it's probably fair to assume that Snyder didn't really realize the shittier elements of the fandom were there. He saw people doing legit good things like donating money to suicide prevention after the unimaginable happened and help him make a movie that was torn from him. The comparison I'm making almost literally came true when Snyder realized what he was associating himself with Geeks + Gamers and actively made a statement distancing himself. That's the responsible thing to do and it would be kind of lovely if Snyder hadn't done that.

There's no comparison between "hanging out with some friends" and being a director with a fanbase spanning the globe, and the fact that everybody harps on how Snyder has a unique responsibility to personally walk up to people and admonish them whenever they're out of line is bizarre. MCU fans literally bullied children and Star Wars fans are insane, but you never see anyone demanding Kevin Feige or Kathleen Kennedy to personally assume responsibility for those chucklefucks. It's a bad faith narrative from the very start

Something I've also noticed is that the claims of being harassed by Snyder bros usually follow the same pattern. Someone makes an inflammatory statement along the lines of comparing the fans to terrorists, insinuate or claim that Snyder/the fans are fascists/sexists/alt right white dudebros/ rapists/ lying about being trans/PoC/queer, (these are fairly common examples btw) this then gets a reaction, Snyders fans get pissed and start pushing back in terms ranging from impolite to rude, and then the person making the original tweet claims they're being harassed. Like no, that's not being harassed, that's you getting gangpiled for making an incredibly stupid tweet, and that's a timehonored twitter tradition.

Like, saying that you don't like Snyders films doesn't usually promote a hostile reaction. Making a purposfully inflammatory tweet using extreme language will. It's not "just an opinion" to equate liking a director with a political ideaology that is actively harming people, especially not considering a large subset of fans are the people being harmed by that ideology, and complaining that the fans are toxic when you're tossing firebombs is a perfect example of the kind of bad faith narrative we're talking about.

Obviously, death threats and threats of harm always cross the line and they are never ok, but the point is that I count the number of times I've seen that on one hand and still have fingers left, and I am an extremely online person these days. usually it's namecalling and unflattering comparisons, or condescending explanations as to why they're morons. The word "harassment" is thrown around way too casually for what's actually usually taking place

McCloud fucked around with this message at 22:32 on Apr 16, 2021

The REAL Goobusters
Apr 25, 2008



thrawn527 posted:

I mean, yeah, isn't that kind of the point? The length of someone's "overlong exercise in narcissism" doesn't matter, as long as the content works for you?

Like...why else are we here?

to suffer

josh04
Oct 19, 2008

I'll see you in the dome





Rabelais D posted:

And four hours crying into the camera about 9/11

Four hours crying about Superman but thinking of 9/11.

ungulateman posted:

This action is irreversible

The posts of the future have taken root in the present!

SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


The solution to bad Youtube-celebrity takes is just to post stronger interpretations from further to the left.

Like, every once in a while, some idiot’s gonna blunder into your field of view and type “Snyder fans are body-fascist” because it’s insanely easy to just write & publish nonsense online.

But it’s even easier to pin these guys on socio-economics, or just basic hypocrisy. The body-fascism thing is basically arguing for the existence of some kind of abberant homosexuality to which they contrast the ‘good’ homosexuals, and anyone presenting that stance in good faith is going to step back after making that realization.

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


Timeless Appeal posted:

as literally everyone relevant to this current line of conversation (People posting right now and Ellis) is saying, it's probably fair to assume that Snyder didn't really realize the shittier elements of the fandom were there. He saw people doing legit good things like donating money to suicide prevention after the unimaginable happened and help him make a movie that was torn from him. The comparison I'm making almost literally came true when Snyder realized what he was associating himself with Geeks + Gamers and actively made a statement distancing himself. That's the responsible thing to do and it would be kind of lovely if Snyder hadn't done that.

I'm sorry, I just am not following this at all. I don't know what your version of responsible accountability looks like. Could you give me an example of a celeb with a million or more followers who handles their fanbase in an appropriate fashion?

KVeezy3
Aug 18, 2005

Airport Music for Black Folk


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The solution to bad Youtube-celebrity takes is just to post stronger interpretations from further to the left.

Like, every once in a while, some idiot’s gonna blunder into your field of view and type “Snyder fans are body-fascist” because it’s insanely easy to just write & publish nonsense online.

But it’s even easier to pin these guys on socio-economics, or just basic hypocrisy. The body-fascism thing is basically arguing for the existence of some kind of abberant homosexuality to which they contrast the ‘good’ homosexuals, and anyone presenting that stance in good faith is going to step back after making that realization.

Not that this goes against your point, because I think it's a really good one, but I always felt that the negation of the 'Snyder films are body-fascist' horror was the liberal multiculturalism of 'body-positivity', which universally rejects any collective evaluation of the human body as a social construct to be dismissed in favor of a decidedly individualist one. All superhero films require the main actors to attain a 'powerful' body aesthetic that leaps off the screen, but it's Snyder who's somehow responsible for grown adults feeling ashamed of their bodies, because he conveys too well his ideas onscreen.

FilthyImp
Sep 30, 2002

Nope



Chairman Capone posted:

This is a bit tangential, but bear with me - I came across this post on Twitter on an upcoming book on video game landscapes
I'm always a big fan of "and then these rebels painted *gasp* NATURE" when they skip the technological aid that poo poo like premixed oil paints had in making that possible.

69 years from now some holonet artist is gonna work the Johnny 5 Aces pose into something and AI-academics will Marvel at the similarity to a once-famous shitpost.

McSpanky
Jan 16, 2005







2house2fly posted:

Analysis reveals forum operating at 37% efficiency. Would you like to assume command?

Very well, let's

The Awful archive contains the knowledge of 100,000 goons.

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





McSpanky posted:

Very well, let's

The Awful archive contains the knowledge of 100,000 goons.

That's just an encyclopedic knowledge of anime and porn and little else

Back on topic

https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2021/apr/16/after-the-snyder-cut-all-bets-are-off-for-a-new-ben-affleck-batman-movie

"It should be noted that this once again smacks of incredibly bad planning by the studio. Moreover, it’s not the first time that an inability to predict the future has turned out to be DC’s kryptonite. At least we’ll always have the Snyder cut of Justice League to remind us there’s an alternate reality out there somewhere where it all worked out very differently.”

Even the guardian is taking potshots at WB now

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

McSpanky posted:

Very well, let's

The Awful archive contains the knowledge of 100,000 goons.

We must collect the Microwave's Motherboxes and complete the Goonity...

Then we will bask in the glow of Has-No-Life and all of existence will. Be. MINE.

Bogus Adventure
Jan 11, 2017

More like "Bulges Adventure"

McCloud posted:

That's just an encyclopedic knowledge of anime and porn and little else

Back on topic

https://amp.theguardian.com/film/2021/apr/16/after-the-snyder-cut-all-bets-are-off-for-a-new-ben-affleck-batman-movie

"It should be noted that this once again smacks of incredibly bad planning by the studio. Moreover, it’s not the first time that an inability to predict the future has turned out to be DC’s kryptonite. At least we’ll always have the Snyder cut of Justice League to remind us there’s an alternate reality out there somewhere where it all worked out very differently.”

Even the guardian is taking potshots at WB now

They have the easiest solution to this with the Flashpoint movie. Just have him reversing the timeline shatter the multiverse. Hell, you could have it so that the light Barry is running toward in ZSJL involves the creation of the universe, and have his observation of it create the multiverses (as Krona did in the comics). Elseworlds are cool and good, and they give you a chance to have artists tell different stories with the characters.

Regardless of how they clear it up, I would love to see Ben Affleck redon the cowl. He is an incredible Bruce Wayne/Batman, and I love his transformation from dark and distraught avenger to driven and hopeful protector.

Timeless Appeal
May 28, 2006


Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

I'm sorry, I just am not following this at all. I don't know what your version of responsible accountability looks like. Could you give me an example of a celeb with a million or more followers who handles their fanbase in an appropriate fashion?
I mean all in all, I think Snyder has done a pretty good job besides what I would call one misstep which I already described as reasonable.

RBA Starblade
Apr 27, 2008

Going Home.



Games Idiot Court Jester


SuperMechagodzilla posted:

The solution to bad Youtube-celebrity takes is just to post stronger interpretations from further to the left.

Like, every once in a while, some idiot’s gonna blunder into your field of view and type “Snyder fans are body-fascist” because it’s insanely easy to just write & publish nonsense online.

But it’s even easier to pin these guys on socio-economics, or just basic hypocrisy. The body-fascism thing is basically arguing for the existence of some kind of abberant homosexuality to which they contrast the ‘good’ homosexuals, and anyone presenting that stance in good faith is going to step back after making that realization.

The solution is to get off social media and not give a poo poo

McCloud
Oct 27, 2005





RBA Starblade posted:

The solution is to get off social media and not give a poo poo

Oh so you're the guy that keeps yelling at me to log off
https://twitter.com/dril/status/247222360309121024?s=20

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SuperMechagodzilla
Jun 9, 2007

NEWT REBORN


KVeezy3 posted:

Not that this goes against your point, because I think it's a really good one, but I always felt that the negation of the 'Snyder films are body-fascist' horror was the liberal multiculturalism of 'body-positivity', which universally rejects any collective evaluation of the human body as a social construct to be dismissed in favor of a decidedly individualist one. All superhero films require the main actors to attain a 'powerful' body aesthetic that leaps off the screen, but it's Snyder who's somehow responsible for grown adults feeling ashamed of their bodies, because he conveys too well his ideas onscreen.

There’s obviously a lot of angles you can take, because there’s just so much to unpack.

Like, although they present their opposition between 300 and Captain America as a matter of aesthetics, it’s obvious that they’re actually referring to the basic plot content: archetypal wimp Steve Rogers is allowed into the military and given whatever accomodations to be a better fighter, while Ephialtes is excluded from military service due to having a limited range of motion in one arm. “Body-fascism” is not located in the level of contrast on the abs, but in the behaviour of the shouty mans - which means it is ultimately the body of the military itself which ‘ought to be’ either hard or inviting.

Of course the two films are not that different at all - self-consciously propagandic, homoerotic, historically inaccurate, conducive to leftist appropriation, etc.

But my point is that, here in the ‘DOME’, you often get these long, ranty posts complaining that Snyder fans are being smeared as fascist “just for liking a movie”. And, like, of course people are being smeared as fascist; that’s just the default level of internet discourse. But, at the same time, it is not enough to just ‘like’ a movie. In order to stave off these dumb accusations, you need to be more political.

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