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Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


I lost a game yesterday that was very winnable when I forgot I was Pathfinder and didn't use my grapple. Literally could have swung to safety. Also didn't get a hammer badge by 40 damage in the same game. Just a real shitshow on my part, it happens.

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MarshyMcFly
Aug 16, 2012



Ra Ra Rasputin posted:

If competitive team compositions interest anyone, from watching a bit of the recent ALGS tournament here is what characters teams took.

Pick one: 100% Mandatory Wraith. Portal too strong compared to anything else for pushing or getting out of a bad location.
Pick two: 90% Wattson, fences and pylons still great for holding or third party warning, combo's well with wraith portal so they can't be used against you as easily, sometimes replaced by Gibraltar.
Pick three: Almost always a Recon class or Gibraltar, Crypto being the most popular followed by Bloodhound then Pathfinder.

All six of these characters have abilities that play well to positioning in a final circle so it's no surprise they are so popular.

Bonus video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4XKWU5LPRkY#t=9541s
Time stamp at 2H 39M to watch a wraith kidnap a team.

I never thought I’d see the day when pathfinder is being picked less than bloodhound in competitive play. GO BLÖTHOUNTER!!! BATHE IN THE BLOTH!!!

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


As for tournament weapons, on the drop almost everyone would carry around a sniper rifle or long range option for skirmishing on the first few circles which makes sense because of safe EVO leveling, single fire scout was a popular gun choice since all it needs is a scope to be entirely functional as a mid-sniper and close up can hold it's own with hipfire spam fire and Wingman could slot into the long range slot, for close up Mastiff was hugely popular and would usually replace the sniper rifles in smaller circles and far more popular then Eva-8, R-301 was also hugely popular paired with the Mastiff.

Aside from that basically any assault rifle or SMG was used, even the alternator.

burexas.irom
Oct 29, 2007

I disapprove of what you say, and I will defend your death because you have no right to say it!

Welp

A&D was better with white shields

Yellow Yoshi
Apr 29, 2020

Figure 1: Mario's weird dog

what the hell is wrong with this game today lmao
played 5 games unranked, all had plat teammates not communicating (probably a pair on discord or something) and treating the game like a race, skipping half the loot in areas to get somewhere (?) really fast
the moment combat starts they singlemindedly run straight at the enemy team and die with <50 damage
then try armed and dangerous and both games land, suddenly theres another team there who were invisible during drop and one somehow finds a kraber immediately and the game ends there
they've been so comically bad i'm just going to not play today i think

Henron
Feb 19, 2010

Arms held out
In your Jesus Christ pose


100% of pro teams picking Wraith you say? After her ""nerf""? That just doesn't follow!

Overminty
Mar 16, 2010

You may wonder what I am doing while reading your posts..



Doctor Rope

I don't think this is healthy for you

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


I've been braving the reddit for this game.

Apparently Gibby is more overpowered than wraith, which made me lol but hey whatever, if you can't move and shoot i admit gibby is probably hard to take on a straight fight. But the best quote I have so far is as follows (and wasn't even on the apex reddit):

"Naw dude the Mastiff is garbage in front of any other weapon, at least the PK had good consistency, the Mastiff in care package was good cause of it's range, but the Mozambique is definitely the best shotgun by far. The eva is horseshit with recoil, the bique does 45s and with the hopup 110 and it's speed is amazing, it's like the combat shotgun in doom. After the buff, I don't use any other shotgun"

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


That's...totally wrong.

Anyway Coach Nihil has a new video and it's probably his best yet, so good to fight against the toxic Git Gud bullshit you hear from so many people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Hj0h9e2hOk

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


Figured i'd actually watch a coach video and its the same sort of advice for every game which isn't surprising, honestly. Get comfortable. Identify what you want to do. Spend time doing it. Reflect on your mistakes. Jot it down and go again the next day.

Once people start doing that naturally you tend to bounce around games and get very good, very quickly.

Knight2m
Jul 26, 2002

Touchdown Steelers

The last two days, my team keeps dying because they refuse to leave the storm. I just don't understand.

Yellow Yoshi
Apr 29, 2020

Figure 1: Mario's weird dog

dogstile posted:

Get comfortable. Identify what you want to do. Spend time doing it. Reflect on your mistakes. Jot it down and go again the next day.

Once people start doing that naturally you tend to bounce around games and get very good, very quickly.

It's amazing how many people don't naturally do this kind of thing and have to be told how to learn and self-improve. Not just in Apex but everywhere. Reflecting on mistakes is a skill in and of itself, thinking "d'aww i shouldnt have done that" straight after dying is one thing but watching a full game recording and analysing each move makes the biggest difference of all in my opinion

Regrettable
Jan 4, 2010


Yellow Yoshi posted:

It's amazing how many people don't naturally do this kind of thing and have to be told how to learn and self-improve. Not just in Apex but everywhere. Reflecting on mistakes is a skill in and of itself, thinking "d'aww i shouldnt have done that" straight after dying is one thing but watching a full game recording and analysing each move makes the biggest difference of all in my opinion

Agreed, watching videos and picking apart your play to figure out where you screwed up, even in fights you won, is integral to rapid improvement. And if you're not watching the entire game you might miss out on where you really screwed up because it could've been a bad call you made several minutes before you died and you might not realize it.

ErKeL
Jun 18, 2013


I prefer to believe failings are outside my control. My ego's far too delicate to rewatch my plays and realise my decisions aren't perfect.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


dogstile posted:

I've been playing with some friends, mostly new.

It's loving painful. The game just throws them into my mmr. Apparently the difference between playing with me and playing without is so extreme that they're surprised people hit shots when they play.

Goddamn. No wonder this game sucks for group play if the skill level is mixed.

This is why me and my best friend have mostly stopped playing together. He's put way more hours into it than me and I just can't compete at his level; also he'll keep dying/losing because being paired with me and another rando means every other team is outperforming us. I was playing with him and another friend who's at his level for a while and I felt like some kind of milquetoast VIP being escorted around by a pair of elite bodyguards.

Yellow Yoshi posted:

It's amazing how many people don't naturally do this kind of thing and have to be told how to learn and self-improve. Not just in Apex but everywhere. Reflecting on mistakes is a skill in and of itself, thinking "d'aww i shouldnt have done that" straight after dying is one thing but watching a full game recording and analysing each move makes the biggest difference of all in my opinion

From spectating my friend's play during firefights, when I've already been effortlessly murdered, I think a key difference is how rapidly he assesses situations and makes decisions. I just don't think on my feet quickly and I'm not sure that's an improvable skill.

Yellow Yoshi
Apr 29, 2020

Figure 1: Mario's weird dog

freebooter posted:

From spectating my friend's play during firefights, when I've already been effortlessly murdered, I think a key difference is how rapidly he assesses situations and makes decisions. I just don't think on my feet quickly and I'm not sure that's an improvable skill.

It absolutely is improvable and its based on experience - you must get the idea that its unfixable out of your head immediately.
I remember reading about a study done on Starcraft players where they measured brain activity of pro players and compared it to that of new players. The pro players were generally calmer, the reason supposedly being that they were comfortable in situations they recognised and didn't have to spend valuable time thinking desperately through solutions that the newer players were engaged in.
The difference in skill ceilings from genetics are minor and don't come into effect until the topmost levels of play in most cases - if you've ever been capable of learning anything in your life before, you're capable of learning to feel your way around a rapidly developing situation in Apex (or anything else for that matter)

wyoming
Jun 7, 2010

Like a television
tuned to a dead channel.


I'm not amazing at the game or anything, but as a solo Bloodhound with a wingman i managed to terrorize a team to death.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVxTmkZyN9U

Honestly not sure if the pathfinder failed at trying to swing around behind me or just, decided to end it all.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


Yellow Yoshi posted:

It absolutely is improvable and its based on experience - you must get the idea that its unfixable out of your head immediately.
I remember reading about a study done on Starcraft players where they measured brain activity of pro players and compared it to that of new players. The pro players were generally calmer, the reason supposedly being that they were comfortable in situations they recognised and didn't have to spend valuable time thinking desperately through solutions that the newer players were engaged in.
The difference in skill ceilings from genetics are minor and don't come into effect until the topmost levels of play in most cases - if you've ever been capable of learning anything in your life before, you're capable of learning to feel your way around a rapidly developing situation in Apex (or anything else for that matter)

I'm trying to think of incidents in actual real life where I had to do rapidly assess a dangerous situation, and obviously adrenaline is a factor, but real life situations are so much simpler (and infrequent) that it doesn't really compare. I basically have a snake attacking me (it really did come right at me) and two motorcycle accidents (definitely made a critically bad decision in the first one, acquitted myself OK in the second).

Whereas Apex is more like: Shut that door Bloodhound just scanned so they know where you are Rev's on the roof now teammate just got downed nearby reload gun need to recharge shield chuck grenade out window RELOAD ALREADY (can I open the door and make it to the zipline?) just heard a portal open nearby teammate just downed one of them do I rush or recharge ahhh poo poo Wraith's at the door, etc etc etc

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


There are also people that just don't care to put in any effort to improve in a game.

Those people usually just get mad and frustrated when they do poorly.

Ra Ra Rasputin fucked around with this message at 09:40 on Sep 17, 2020

SolidSnakesBandana
Jul 1, 2007

Infinite ammo


As someone who used to really suck and now only kinda sucks, the best thing to do is to just play play play. Yeah it's gonna be frustrating at first but you'll get better, I promise. Just put in the time and do either Hot Drops or Hot Adjacent. This advice applies to all games btw

Hackan Slash
May 31, 2007
Hit it until it's not a problem anymore

Live and don't learn, just press w.

Yellow Yoshi
Apr 29, 2020

Figure 1: Mario's weird dog

freebooter posted:

I'm trying to think of incidents in actual real life where I had to do rapidly assess a dangerous situation, and obviously adrenaline is a factor, but real life situations are so much simpler (and infrequent) that it doesn't really compare. I basically have a snake attacking me (it really did come right at me) and two motorcycle accidents (definitely made a critically bad decision in the first one, acquitted myself OK in the second).

Whereas Apex is more like: Shut that door Bloodhound just scanned so they know where you are Rev's on the roof now teammate just got downed nearby reload gun need to recharge shield chuck grenade out window RELOAD ALREADY (can I open the door and make it to the zipline?) just heard a portal open nearby teammate just downed one of them do I rush or recharge ahhh poo poo Wraith's at the door, etc etc etc

stop making excuses, the point was about being able to learn. do you drive? do you remember the panic of learning versus the comfort of knowing? if not, how about cooking a single dish? surely you've learned something

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


freebooter posted:

I'm trying to think of incidents in actual real life where I had to do rapidly assess a dangerous situation, and obviously adrenaline is a factor, but real life situations are so much simpler (and infrequent) that it doesn't really compare. I basically have a snake attacking me (it really did come right at me) and two motorcycle accidents (definitely made a critically bad decision in the first one, acquitted myself OK in the second).

Whereas Apex is more like: Shut that door Bloodhound just scanned so they know where you are Rev's on the roof now teammate just got downed nearby reload gun need to recharge shield chuck grenade out window RELOAD ALREADY (can I open the door and make it to the zipline?) just heard a portal open nearby teammate just downed one of them do I rush or recharge ahhh poo poo Wraith's at the door, etc etc etc

I think the real thing you need to learn is that everything has a response you can develop an "automatic" response to that'll get you slightly better. Just finished a fight as rampart? Block a door with with her wall. Squad pushing but your squad is healing? Toss a thermite or two in the way, etc etc.

Eventually you stop thinking about what you should do and just do it, same as anything else. If you get really stuck, you can learn to "slow down a fight" and give yourself some time to mentally reset, too. I do this all the time with Gibraltar. But also half the time i go "gently caress it i wanna shoot someone" and get shot in the back because playing safe all the time is loving boring zzzzzzzzzz

Schneider Inside Her
Aug 6, 2009

Please bitches. If nothing else I am a gentleman

I've noticed that there is a voice in my head that goes "don't do that it is a bad idea" and usually I ignore it and die. So I'm working on listening to it and generally just slowing my play down a bit.

Futaba Anzu
May 5, 2011

GROSS BOY



Schneider Inside Her posted:

I've noticed that there is a voice in my head that goes "don't do that it is a bad idea" and usually I ignore it and die. So I'm working on listening to it and generally just slowing my play down a bit.

you may be wraith irl

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


freebooter posted:

I'm trying to think of incidents in actual real life where I had to do rapidly assess a dangerous situation, and obviously adrenaline is a factor, but real life situations are so much simpler (and infrequent) that it doesn't really compare. I basically have a snake attacking me (it really did come right at me) and two motorcycle accidents (definitely made a critically bad decision in the first one, acquitted myself OK in the second).

Whereas Apex is more like: Shut that door Bloodhound just scanned so they know where you are Rev's on the roof now teammate just got downed nearby reload gun need to recharge shield chuck grenade out window RELOAD ALREADY (can I open the door and make it to the zipline?) just heard a portal open nearby teammate just downed one of them do I rush or recharge ahhh poo poo Wraith's at the door, etc etc etc

Practice. You drive a car (I'm assuming). There are tons of decisions you make every second while driving you don't see becaude you have stopped thinking about them as individual decisions and instead see them as part of "driving". Skills, including rapid decision-making, just need practice.

E: like in the example above, eventually (I am not there in Apex) you won't have to think about when to reload because you'll have gotten killed enough by reloading at a bad time, or not reloading at all, and you'll do it on "instinct" that's actually just lots of practice.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Sep 17, 2020

Cowslips Warren
Oct 29, 2005

What use had they for tricks and cunning, living in the enemy's warren and paying his price?


Grimey Drawer

and driving a car, if you screw up doing so, you can possibly kill someone or yourself; at least in Apex you can regenerate, or there's a whole new game right after the one you lose!

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


Ravenfood posted:

Practice. You drive a car (I'm assuming). There are tons of decisions you make every second while driving you don't see becaude you have stopped thinking about them as individual decisions and instead see them as part of "driving". Skills, including rapid decision-making, just need practice.

E: like in the example above, eventually (I am not there in Apex) you won't have to think about when to reload because you'll have gotten killed enough by reloading at a bad time, or not reloading at all, and you'll do it on "instinct" that's actually just lots of practice.

I mean less stuff like this, and more stuff like "OK one of them is on the roof, two of them are in that house," and having to quickly try to predict what they'll do next and determine where to best position myself.

It doesn't help that it's a team game and if you're playing with pubbies who aren't communicating with you, you also have to predict what they're about to do.

Ra Ra Rasputin
Apr 2, 2011


Can confirm what others are saying, you just repeat the same scenario over and over and over again until you ingrained the muscle memory and recognize the patterns and your mind is subconsciously going down a list of what to do and what you expect to happen next based on patterns you recognize and preparing for it.

An example is you got shot and your muscle memory goes > dash to cover > have shield ready to go the instant your in cover > peak to find shooter > do the ADAD dance while aiming > reload in cover > realize the fight has gone on for over 30 seconds and you need to either end the fight now or re-position so your squad doesn't attract everyone on the server like moths to a flame.

As opposed to got shot > panic and stand still aiming down scope looking for the shooter > go down and spam ping your teammates and spam the nearest respawn beacon button.
Or finish fight > spend 1 minute carefully considering every gun and attachment in the area while standing perfectly still on every box and still unhealed from the last fight > get shot.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


freebooter posted:

I mean less stuff like this, and more stuff like "OK one of them is on the roof, two of them are in that house," and having to quickly try to predict what they'll do next and determine where to best position myself.

It doesn't help that it's a team game and if you're playing with pubbies who aren't communicating with you, you also have to predict what they're about to do.

I actually fall prey to the pubbie trap a lot. The real way to get around that is you'll start to get a feel for if someone isn't going to be good in a firefight from the way they move and loot, long before a fight starts. If you think they're gonna be useless, chances are they are. I've found through my own play (and others have recorded stats) that over hundreds of games, your average pub is going to contribute less than 100 damage a game. That's not even enough to kill a dude without armour. So instead of thinking of your pubs as "people i need to work with", start thinking of them like "mirage decoys with health".

Dick move, sure, but you'll do better.

freebooter
Jul 7, 2009

AUSTRALIA
NEEDS
TURNBULL


Oh, I for sure can tell if somebody is actually a decent player or not. But if you're not using mics (and I don't like to because 90% of pubbies are loving weirdos) then even if somebody is a good player, you can't effectively co-ordinate. Do we rush, do we hang back and observe, do we leave this fight to fall back to the ring and hold them at a chokepoint etc.

Which is why (apart from hanging out, obviously) I like playing with my best friend. But the gulf between us is so huge that when I play with him on a server matched to his skill level, I'm the guy contributing less than 100 damage.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


freebooter posted:

I mean less stuff like this, and more stuff like "OK one of them is on the roof, two of them are in that house," and having to quickly try to predict what they'll do next and determine where to best position myself.

It doesn't help that it's a team game and if you're playing with pubbies who aren't communicating with you, you also have to predict what they're about to do.

Fair, and I'm not saying absolutely everything becomes routine but even decisions like that you can offload a lot of the mental work onto routines and practice. "Two in the house -> immediately toss grenade into house" for instance, or "the one on the roof has/hasn't seen me -> I can/can't burst them down before the other two come out -> do so/run or goto above" being something you don't have to think about cognitively if you do it enough. At least in sports, reaction time is in large part a trained, drilled thing, not some innate talent.

I'm switching gears a bit from Apex, which I suck at because I don't practice it, to olympic fencing, which I used to be really good at. Some differences: its against one opponent instead of many, but the big thing is the decision tree that I used, and that anticipation and reaction time are hugely important. When I started, I kept trying to predict what my opponent would do, which was hard. Reading body language, distance, past actions, etc. And then when I did predict it, I had to know what to do and to do it well, which was also hard. So I drilled parries and attacks and then I stopped having to think about what to do when someone attacks me into various positions from various distances, because it was drilled and practiced and I stopped thinking about it. (ie, you stop thinking about which gun to use in close/long range and when to switch and whether you've reloaded because you've just DONE all that from practice). But I was still purely reactive, and still often trying to react to people that I was guessing on what they would do. So then I got a very simple decision tree, which was "Do X with the intent of provoking Y response. If they do Y, then respond with Z. If they do literally anything else, retreat and reset" And that simple loop a) serves really well for a really long time because it keeps you safe, but eventually, it also stops becoming something to think about. More importantly, what I can start doing when I stop actively thinking about those actions is watching my opponent, so it stops becoming a guessing, reactive game and starts becoming something to plan for. And then it starts getting longer, and more elaborate, and can become "Do X, if Y then Z but if A then B" etc etc etc and all of those actions and poo poo becomes rote, routine practice and the thought stops being "what do I do if they does something" and becomes "what do I do next to best take advantage". And then from the outside it looks like my reaction time is insanely fast because I did all of these actions and responded so quickly and it was entirely a process of drilling the mechanical action and drilling the mental action. Internally, those drills moved my actions from of "oh poo poo he did something different!" to something that I was responding to before I was really consciously aware of it because I had a response to that different action already planned and drilled for.

Maybe the analogy here is to always be trying to think about what you'll do and where you'll be able to escape to if its clear you're losing the fight. First priority, before you think about anything else, just practice "where do I go from this spot if three people round the corner unexpectedly" and eventually that stops being something to think about because you'll just start seeing the places and moving there as practice. And it builds from there, because once that's automated, you start practicing the next mental routine.

dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


Alternatively, if you never miss a headshot and have a mastiff you'll never have to run away.

Just play perfect, 4head.

I'm joking, obviously

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001


dogstile posted:

I've found through my own play (and others have recorded stats) that over hundreds of games, your average pub is going to contribute less than 100 damage a game.



this is heavily slanted by a large proportion of hot drops, right

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


No, this is my experience as well. The average pub will loot for 5 minutes then w into an enemy team and die instantly doing almost no damage. Zero ability to do anything but slowly loot a drop area and ask for attachments. I've literally had pubbies strip everything of value from the deathboxes of a squad I solo-wiped while I revived the other teammate - zero teamplay, zero positioning, zero strategic thinking. They are largely speed bumps for the top 10% of players to run over.

Wheeee
Mar 11, 2001


oh i'm used to half the people i get teamed with being idiot bots, but a sub-100 damage average is just nuts

i pretty much only play apex when i'm stoned af looking to space out into bite-size matches and i'm not that low

star eater
Jan 1, 2006






Fallen Rib

iirc the post was someone on reddit who kept track of 100 matches and 90% of their teammates did less than 100 dmg or something

Megaman's Jockstrap
Jul 16, 2000

What a horrible thread to have a post.


star eater posted:

iirc the post was someone on reddit who kept track of 100 matches and 90% of their teammates did less than 100 dmg or something

I also did it when I had a bad start some time back. Post below is from February. The average player matched with when solo-queued is extraordinarily bad.

Megaman's Jockstrap posted:

Struggling this season. Grabbed a pen and paper and took notes on last night's session. 60% of my squadmates last night died before doing 200 damage. I was the damage leader on the squad 84% of the time. My k/d for the evening was .75. My average damage per game was 553. We lost to the first squad we fought 80% of the time.

There were a couple of games where it didn't show me my third squadmate's stats, but they were "drop and die" players so I'm confident these are relatively real numbers.

star eater
Jan 1, 2006






Fallen Rib

oh good, more evidence that pubbies SUCK at this game. i didn’t see that cause i only started playing in s5

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dogstile
May 1, 2012

fucking clocks
how do they work?


Funnily enough, i actually think my hot dropping pubs do better.

Sure they get punked a lot, but they're willing to fight so they're probably gonna hit the odd shot. The fuckwits who land on the edge of the map and creep about? I keep telling myself i should just leave those games. Not once have I seen that sort of squad win a fight without me downing all three enemies solo.

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