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King Doom
Dec 1, 2004
I am on the Internet.

Mammoths with cannons on them.

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Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



King Doom posted:

Mammoths with cannons on them.

If our civ doesn't have this I will be extremely mad.

Red John
Jul 12, 2018


Grapplejack posted:

If our civ doesn't have this I will be extremely mad.

+1

Thousands of artillery mammoths, please.

zetamind2000
Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.



Llama cavalry is probably the best ahistorical domesticated unit because it's as fast as horse cavalry but is one of the only units in the early game that is able to go over the normally impassable mountains. Bear cavalry is stronger but it only has one point of movement and is pretty bad at chasing down barbarians. Giraffe cavalry is delightful, though.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013


Is zebra cavalry literally just regular cavalry but with a different resource requirement?

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


You can get police tigers which are great at border control

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Mod version has been updated to SVN 10492 which includes the Complex Traits system we're not using and slightly increases the AI discount for techs. It also fixes a relevant bug. Other than that, nothing else of note that I can tell.

C2C Gameplay Chapter 9: Oh Yeah, Well I'll Make My Own City! With Blackjack and Hookers! In Fact, Forget The City!



I've already got a spot selected for my second city. It'll grab Prime Timber and eventually Copper as unique resources and overall will end up being a strong city in the long run. I like using Civ 4's signpost feature to mark down important tiles like this one. Unfortunately, they seem to disappear in-between turns or something like that. I suspect it has to do with how the game caches map data to keep memory usage low as you scroll around the map, but that's entirely speculation on my part.

Just plopping down a city with a unit or two isn't quite enough in C2C. Cities will start generating Crime and Disease and other properties immediately upon founding, even more than usual since we plan on making use of Slavery mechanics. Getting Enforcers, Healers, and Story Tellers pre-built before the city goes down will keep all that stuff under control long before it ever becomes a problem.



Of course, building all of those special units with increased maintenance costs takes a substantial hit in our gold generation, and it will only get worse. A necessary investment for the future of our realm.



My Gatherers er... gather around the new city site preparing for work. I can't improve anything that isn't in my border, but I can put Trail improvements on as many surrounding tiles as possible while I wait.

Since most of the tiles in the city's first ring are forested, I take Forest Worker I this time around.



Along with the Property control units, I also take a large selection of Subdued animals I've had laying around in my capital. While Myths can only ever be in one city, most other buildings you can make with animals can be put in any city you build, provided you have the animals to use. As you might expect, hunting will remain very relevant for quite a while yet.



Oh, what's this? I'm not being cheeky or anything, I legitimately had no idea what was going on when this happened.



Turns out there are special promotions corresponding to astrological signs. Taurus gives the unit a chance to heal surrounding units upon a combat victory, which is actually a really nice ability I'd like to have. Naturally, the promotion ends up on a Law Enforcement unit which makes it entirely pointless. :v:

I have no idea what governs these astrological promotions, if they're entirely random or depended on a specific tech or ever obsolete or whatnot, I'll just keep on eye on things and see if it happens again any time soon.



One advantage to building all those merged Stone Spearman units is being able to crack the defenses of stronger barbarian units that my Ambushers wouldn't be able to touch. I'm well on my way to getting a Great General at this rate.



With more units being built and having them in place outside of our territory (a mistake on my part btw) we end up running a deficit even at 0% science. :siren: Not ideal, but it'll all be fine in the end once our new city shows up.



Speaking of which, Tribalism finally comes in, which allows us to build the Tribe, our first Settler unit. It does what a Settler does except it only have 1 movement point because everything is worse in the distant past, clearly :v:



It also opens up a host of fairly debilitating diseases. Just more reasons to be better safe than sorry when keeping Disease low.





And as promised, three new civics! Tribal Warfare prevents us from building more Thieves, which is fine so long as none of my current Rogues die, and disables the effects of the Bandit's Hideout entirely. The benefits though are pretty huge for this part of the game. A lot more free military units, improved commerce and gold in the capital, faster training of certain military unit types, and even some experience.

Tribal reduces the penalty to Required Food to Grow and unhealthiness that Primitive imposed, and some good percentage yields in cities while also increasing yields of some of our improvements. Also important to immediately revolt into this as it great increases the training speed of our Tribes. Gold penalty and slightly increased maintenance is not nice though.

Communal removes the food and gold penalty in Unorganized as well as the worker speed penalty. In addition, building worker type units becomes faster and we get some nice percentage bonuses in all our cities.

The combination of all three fixes my gold issues for the moment, though not entirely.



Unfortunately, revolting into all three civics at once, combined with our Education level and our Traits, gives us 2 turns of anarchy. Not a big deal at this game speed, but later on when switching between civics depending on the situation might be desirable, anarchy length modifiers start to add up.



Yes, that's right, it's time for :shittydog: . Canine Domestication opens a bevy of new buildings, some related directly to training Canine units and some that logically come about because we have Dogs available to help domesticate certain animals we couldn't before. We also get our first upgrade to an existing improvement in the Nomadic Herd.



Oh yeah, did I mention that I needed to keep my Rogues alive? Yeah, after taking some gold from Carthage I sent my Rogue to Qin to take a look at his city and ended up getting attacked by one of his Slingers (surviving due to withdrawal thankfully) because the AI apparently loves keeping Thieves in their capital. Are they intentionally keeping Criminal units in their cities to keep watch for invisible enemy units or is the AI just not using their units properly? Heck if I know :shrug:

Oh yeah, and in this image is another ability our criminal units have. Sabotaging production works the same as it always has I believe, though here we just need money rather than Espionage points.



A testament to how much we've developed our capital, with all relevant modifiers and all the extra food we have we're completing an almost 600 hammer unit in only four turns :woop:



China has a bunch of Enforcers in its capital and Beijing seems to have its Crime under control nicely. Definitely just want to take the gold and run.



Next up for our nefarious ne'er-do-well Assyria.



That's... quite a highly promoted Exile. :stare: Not sure how in the world it got enough experience to get to Might unless it has just been continually siphoning money from a nearby AI. Or maybe it got some EXP from an event or a hut, who knows.



Doesn't matter, cause he's dead ready to be integrated into my glorious empire. :getin:



As of this version of the mod, mentioned above, the Bounty Hunter event has been fixed. I've been pointing out various minor bugs like this on the C2C Discord (when I remember to anyway) and Thunderbrd has been fairly active trying to address them, so that's a good sign for issues that may crop up during play later on. Oddly enough, Bounty Hunter II only gives me 77 cargo space instead of 88 like I expected, so who knows how that whole deal is calculated.



Back in the capital, after our Tribe finishes, I immediately get to building the Village Hall. The Village Hall is the start of a series of buildings that build on each other representing a city's administrative power. As you might expect, the Town Hall replaces this one and comes later on. The basic effects of these buildings include a number of free specialists at the cost of increased city maintenance and also some happiness. There may be some additional effects in later buildings worth looking at when the time comes...

The catch is that each stage of this building series requires increasing levels of Cultural expansion. A Village Hall requires Fledgling culture, the first border pop, so you can't just build this right off the bat in a new city. Town Hall requires Developing culture and it only gets higher from there, so that's another incentive to invest some into culture if you can. It's also another indirect benefit of us having taken Creative, so good on you guys. :thumbsup:



The speed of the Tribe is a real pain in the neck. Going to this first location is not a huge deal but going to far off locations for later cities is going to take a lot of extra turns. Not as bad as it could be since we're on Marathon but can become quite relevant on faster game speeds.

At least everything I need for the new city is set and ready to go.




:shittydog: comes in. Also shown is a screenshot from several turns into the future showing a Scavenging Camp in the process of upgrading. I believe I mentioned this earlier but just for repetition's sake, upgrading improvements operates in exactly the same fashion as the normal Cottage->Hamlet->etc. growth from base Civ 4 BTS, though with the additional ability for you to choose which improvement it grows into if there are multiple options. Upgrading to a Nomadic Herd takes 40 turns, so this is halfway done.

Unfortunately, before we can get our doggos going we're going to need/want a couple buildings. They aren't particularly expensive, but it is going to take a couple turns to get the Dog Breeder up, get the Dog Kennels for experience up with if we like and then build all the doggos we want to start with.




Just kidding, we can do all of the above with Subdued canine-type animals. I captured a ton of Ethiopian Wolves and they'll do just fine in getting us to :shittydog: without wasting any more turns.



And thus we have the Trained Dogs, our first Canine unit and Man's Best Friend. There's a lot of interesting modifiers associated with Dogs, as well as other animals we'll eventually have access to, but shown here is probably their most important function, being able to see invisible units. This means we no longer need to keep Ambushers or Thieves around just in case enemy invisible units come around, and since we can have as many doggos as we want we'll have great coverage no matter what. We have three wolves to upgrade, so let's get to it.



We christen our first pack of dogs as Boksi, in honor of our fallen National Hero. May his name live on in history for all time :patriot:

He will be a hunting dog of course.



Missile was a major bandwagon choice, so I certainly couldn't go without a dog with that name.



Humankisser, as its name implies, is being bred to be a psychotic bloodthirsty killer.



That... is a lot of Combat Types :stare:



We get a much more thorough summary of the Trained Dog's combat abilities modifiers in the Civlopedia, including a description of a bunch of modifiers we haven't really seen yet. Surround and Destroy is a Combat Mod wherein units get additional combat bonuses if allied units are surrounding the enemy in some capacity. The modifiers associated with this system can be quite extensive and I probably should have been using them more than I have. I'll be going over this system in more detail when I do another Combat Mechanics update. For now though, I'll let the different modifiers speak for themselves.



And here we have a lot of modifiers from the unit's status as a Canines unit. Some natural capture chance, improved attack on many terrain types, but also a natural bonus against larger targets and smaller Groups. This makes them a solid choice against large lumbering single animals like Elephants.



Finally, a number of Nature(*) Combat Sub Types. This is by no means exhaustive but just an example of some of the minor bonuses that can add up when made in aggregate. Nature(Pack Hunter)'s Size/Group combat bonuses, for example, stack with the same bonuses from Canines.



Chiefdom comes immediately after Tribalism, but is arguably just as important. Not for the buildings, which are all decent but not priorities, but for the Civic, our first new Government civic we've had since the game began.



As a reminder, here's the Civic we've been in since the start. It's only effect has been providing a massive unhappiness penalty if we somehow managed to have more than two cities. Short of rushing two neighbors this isn't possible, so we've been ignoring it.

Until now of course.



Chiefdom (the Civic, not the Tech) has a bunch of effects raising city maintenance costs and some additional yields and happiness, but the most important effect is letting us settle up to five cities before the unhappiness penalty kicks in. With such a heavy penalty five cities is what we're sticking to for the time being.

It'll be a while yet before we reach a Civic that grants us as many cities as we want without penalty, but the limit does raise at a pretty steady pace given the scale of the game. Artificially limiting expansion like this rubs me the wrong way just on a fundamental design level, but I do find the logic that it's necessary in this case sound, considering the really large time scale we're dealing with. With no city limit penalties all you'd really need to do is be the first to Tribalism and spam as many cities as possible until your opponents have no land to work with, and then you pretty much just auto-win. If there was a more elegant solution though I'd love the C2C team to explore it.



This building shows up when we build the Dog Breeder. Having owned a dog, I can say with certainty that fleas suck. :argh:



The Village Hall finishes, and I decide to use the free specialist to work a Doctor slot. Great Doctor is one of the new Great People added in this mod and has abilities related to increasing health and reducing disease as you might expect.



The Tribe has arrived and now, after ~420 turns of play, we finally settle our first city.



It strikes me that I should think of a theme of some sort for naming my cities, since keeping track of a bunch of Middle Eastern Hittite names might be troublesome down the line. If you have any suggestions I'm game.



Our city starts out pitifully, having nothing but one tile to work. We'll develop this city into a powerhouse soon enough, but it will need some work to get there.



Having improved tiles like this Apple helps, but it's only a start at best.



Our new city will have a loooot of buildings to get through, and queuing up all the basic ones looks to be a tedious process that will do nothing but infuriate even the most dedicated of players.

Except... what is that "Prehistoric 1" thing in the build queue?



With a new city, it's time to show off a neat feature of this mod that can be a life-saver if you can power through its rather... unfinished nature. This is the Build List Screen.



It shows a list of every single buildable item in the entire game and allows you to create a number of template queues, each of which can be named and selected in the city build menu. The cool part about this is that items you put in the list that can't actually be built (because of a lack of prerequisites or whatnot) are just skipped in favor of the next item in the list, and if the skipped item later becomes buildable, it'll just queue up that item at the first possible opportunity. And you aren't locked into this queue either, you can intervene and queue up any unit/building the regular way without issue. So you can make a pretty large queue for cities down the line and not have to worry about picking every single building you want for every single city.

That said, this feature is very rough and not really finished to what it needs to be. First off, you only have the same queue controls the city screen gives you, so moving items up and down the queue isn't really possible, and editing a large queue can be more trouble than it's worth. Additionally, there are issues like the front of the queue getting filled with the item in the back of the queue randomly and also the available filters being incomplete so trying to filter by certain attributes just plain doesn't work, among other annoyances.

Speaking of filters, when I say every single buildable item, I mean it. Opening this screen in a freshly loaded game will always show the entire list, which unfortunately means clicking the button takes a good 30 seconds to a minute to show up as it loads the information for every single item. From what I gather there was supposed to be more work done on this screen to make it better and less laggy but I don't think anyone's really touched it in a while? I'm not sure what the status on it is.



Fortunately, you can filter items by whether they're currently buildable or not to speed things up a bunch, though this still ends up with extraneous options. Why this screen doesn't just default to only showing buildable items is beyond me as that alone would make using it a lot less of a hassle. In fact, I may end up looking into whether I can edit the XML/python files to do just that...

Despite all these annoyances I quite like that this feature is even a thing, rough as it is, and I'll be making heavy use of it in the future when we get even MORE building options that need to be worked on in new cities we found.



Back to our new city, before we worry too much about build queues we gotta do something about our food and production. Fortunately, I have just the stuff to deal with it. Herds (and Camps for that matter) can be built in any city, so it's worth sending extra animals to build whatever you can from the start.



As seen here. Having Canine Domestication helps too as it opens up a bevy of new Herd options we didn't have before, such as Herd(Horse) and Herd(Cow).



Even in our capital we can build these new Herd buildings, including the Herd(Pig) using a Wild Boar I didn't even realize I had. Having all these new herds also means new animal resources available to us for use in later manufacturing chains.

In the process of building these Herds, I realized that the Red Foxes I had been subduing can also be upgraded into Trained Dogs... somehow. I have three of them, but I want to keep one of them for use in something else. As for the other two...



BABA is DOG is the statement that makes the most sense to me in this context. I mean, the dog isn't literally Baba, Baba is literally the dog after all.

But no for real play Baba is You it's a fantastic game that will make your brain explode (in a good way).



:shittydog: Do I need to say anything else.

(Koda will get its day next update, rest easy)



We're not done with Kanesh yet. I kept all those Captives you see here for a reason, and it's time to make use of them. I use three of them to make the base Slave Compound and then the Food and Production ones. From there I make one Settled Slave and then one Settled Slave (Production)

It's also worth mentioning that Thunderbrd clarified to me that I am in fact not limited to only one specialized Settled Slave per city like I had surmised, but that the allowed number is actually dependent on the number of normal Settled Slaves already in the city. Looking a bit deeper into the mod files, the rule seems to be that you can only make a slave of a certain specialty if the current number of normal slaves is greater than TWICE the current number of slaves with that specialty. So since my capital has one production slave, I would need to have three normal slaves before I could settle another one, and then five after that to settle the third one, etc. etc. Note that this condition applies to each specialized slave separately, so as soon as I have three normal settled slaves I can also make two food slaves in addition to my two production slaves. Good information to know for the future.



With everything in place, here's what Kanesh looks like on the first turn. A pretty far cry from the 7 food and 4 production it started with, don't you think?

Getting my second city up and all my units in my territory also fixes my gold issues entirely.



In my capital I get the Warrior's Hut going, which will provide extra experience to combat-focused units. I think this is enough to get a second promotion for at least Melee units combined with other stuff I've built, but I'm not 100% sure.



I had been under the impression that you needed certain specific types of Great People to abandon Slavery but it seems my Great Hunter can do it just fine. Not that I'm complaining.

And yes, the whole "slaves will be freed" is an actual thing that happens and not just flavor text. We'll get back to that sometime in the (distant) future. :v:



Back on the field for once in this update, the Hunter upgrade for my Desert Combat unit is showing its dividends, as with the increase in base combat strength and all my modifiers I can make easy work of these 9 strength Droves of Aurochs that have been wandering around near my land for what feels like eons now. Hopefully I manage to capture some of them.



Prime Timber is useful in a lot of applications, though many of them are long since past being relevant. Improving it still provides a substantial bonus to the tile's yields.



Hey it turns out this map does have some Jade in it. It's pretty close to Carthage and quite far from us though, so I'm leaving it alone for now. I have a feeling Carthage will grab this spot whenever they get to Tribalism.

As for what spots I do want to settle for cities 3-5, I've already determined them. And since I just discovered while writing this update that Irfanview actually has image painting tools (who knew?) I'm going to take advantage of it right now.



First spot is due East of my capital to grab the marble, the fish, and the wheat. The yellow outline shows the eventual workable radius of the city to better visualize what this city will look like when it's planted down.



Second spot is further South from Kanesh I thought about going one tile down to leave room for a city to easily grab the corn, but I decided not to worry so much about that and just grab the Silver while keeping my fresh water. Don't worry about the relative lack of resources, the Silver is the only thing that truly matters right now.



And the third spot, using the fabled "pink dot" visualization, is a spot waaaay to my SouthEast. The land is kind of miserable and missing that clam by going off the stone kind of sucks, but the whole point here is to grab the Stone. I really want Stone, and I want it so bad that this will actually be the next city I plant in this game.

But that's for another day

----------------------

NEXT TIME: Continued expansion, :shittydog: 's roaming the countryside, and improved animal domestication.

This update didn't cover too many turns, but I did have a lot to cover as you can see. Things should speed up again from here. The end of the Prehistoric Era is in sight, though I won't do a hardcore straight beeline, if only to give the AIs a chance to develop some more without me just catapulting ahead immediately.

Super Jay Mann fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Apr 8, 2019

ssmagus
Apr 2, 2010
Assmagus, LPer ass-traordinaire

You might want to press ALT+X to solve your dot mapping issues. CTRL+X to toggle it off.

General Revil
Sep 29, 2014

"Congratulations! You're all smarter than some of the most brilliant minds on Tendao that worked on this revolutionary project."

When updating a civic, can you provide a comparison like you did with the government civic? It was nice to compare the old and new civic.

GodspeedSphere
Apr 25, 2008


My posting is weak.

GodspeedSphere fucked around with this message at 12:30 on Apr 1, 2019

GodspeedSphere
Apr 25, 2008


Super Jay Mann posted:

(Koda will get its day next update, rest easy)

Warms my cold, cynical heart to hear it.

GodspeedSphere fucked around with this message at 12:39 on Apr 1, 2019

Alberto Gonzalez
Apr 28, 2008


What a delightfully weird civ mod. Loving it so far, at this rate we're going to space in just a couple of years!

Bloodly
Nov 3, 2008

Not as strong as you'd expect.

Yes, this LP will probably last two years real-time.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Alberto Gonzalez posted:

What a delightfully weird civ mod. Loving it so far, at this rate we're going to space in just a couple of years!

Everyone keeps highlighting this, but the truly terrifying thing is that by the time this is true, you're still only 2/3 of the way through the game.

GodspeedSphere
Apr 25, 2008


Jossar posted:

Everyone keeps highlighting this, but the truly terrifying thing is that by the time this is true, you're still only 2/3 of the way through the game.

Can we get a tech tree, or is that gonna break tables worse than WWE?

zetamind2000
Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.



GodspeedSphere posted:

Can we get a tech tree, or is that gonna break tables worse than WWE?

The most recent tech tree thread and a bunch of numbers about it. The entire thing is divided into thirteen parts and "My god, it's full of techs" doesn't even begin to describe the tech tree.

A gallery of the various parts of the tech tree because I don't want to make the thread impossible to load: https://imgur.com/a/XcjqbgY

zetamind2000 fucked around with this message at 18:41 on Apr 3, 2019

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Fun story, I was going to make a GIF of the entire tech tree in the very first post as part of that little joke at the very end about how massive the tech tree was but I scrapped it because even after compressing it to hell and resizing to a lower res it was still too big.

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



Lol the icon for mega-corporations
Also :pcgaming: nanopunk :pcgaming:

I love how loving insane this mod is.

e: lmao oh my loving god I just looked we haven't even discovered the goddamned wheel yet! We aren't even in tech tree 2!!!

ee: will you be doing a thread vote for a religion or is there one you want to get?

Grapplejack fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Apr 3, 2019

Prav
Oct 29, 2011



nice pink dot

settling one off the coast hurts my soul though

Kangxi
Nov 12, 2016

The hat is mandatory.


Super Jay Mann posted:

The Tribe has arrived and now, after ~420 turns of play, we finally settle our first city.

Grapplejack posted:

e: lmao oh my loving god I just looked we haven't even discovered the goddamned wheel yet! We aren't even in tech tree 2!!!

No wheel, no animal riding, no agriculture, no 'celebrations' yet. I think we'll be here a while!!

zetamind2000
Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.



Grapplejack posted:

Also :pcgaming: nanopunk :pcgaming:

They really need to add sandalpunk, it's one of the few -punk styles they haven't used that has actual stuff you can do with it. Alternatively they could go even more insane and use everything from Wikipedia's helpful page of -punk settings.

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Grapplejack posted:

ee: will you be doing a thread vote for a religion or is there one you want to get?

Good question. I'll probably just make a determination on my own based on the game state since there are a LOT of options and, unlike the Traits which we eventually get many of, narrowing them down to a simple vote seems untenable.

We'll see though, a lot of this LP is just me kind of winging it based on what happens in-game so nothing is set in stone.

Anfauglir
Jun 8, 2007


Some of the implications in the tech tree are just amazing, big fan of Urban Culture leading right to Forensics.

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010




Fun Shoe

Apparently Torture is a tech you can research. Apparently it also didn't exist until medieval times, which seems like a slightly revisionist point of view.

xelada
Dec 21, 2012


Cerebral Bore posted:

Apparently Torture is a tech you can research. Apparently it also didn't exist until medieval times, which seems like a slightly revisionist point of view.

I think it, like many techs, are less so much a case of your people inventing/discovering it, but more that it has been formalised, codified, specialised and or ritualised.
So before the tech "torture" is mostly beating the person/stabbing them in "unimportant"places/etc. is done wherever is convenient at the time, and is done by basically anybody, which can be used to get what you want, but has the bad habit of killing them before you can get what you want from them.
After the tech, rulers are likely to have someone (or multiple people) who's job is "torturer", a person who knows how to cause as much pain/fear/etc. as possible with as little chance that the "esteemed guest" expires before they can spill the beans; additionally these acts are done in a designated space, room or building, which will likely have a number of tools and implements made for explicitly and only for torturing.

tl:dr: I think it's less: "your people have invented Torture!" and more: "your people have invented the Pear of Anguish!"

Anfauglir
Jun 8, 2007


xelada posted:

I think it, like many techs, are less so much a case of your people inventing/discovering it, but more that it has been formalised, codified, specialised and or ritualised.
So before the tech "torture" is mostly beating the person/stabbing them in "unimportant"places/etc. is done wherever is convenient at the time, and is done by basically anybody, which can be used to get what you want, but has the bad habit of killing them before you can get what you want from them.
After the tech, rulers are likely to have someone (or multiple people) who's job is "torturer", a person who knows how to cause as much pain/fear/etc. as possible with as little chance that the "esteemed guest" expires before they can spill the beans; additionally these acts are done in a designated space, room or building, which will likely have a number of tools and implements made for explicitly and only for torturing.

tl:dr: I think it's less: "your people have invented Torture!" and more: "your people have invented the Pear of Anguish!"

Even that doesn't really work here though, torturers as a job are way older than the middle ages. There's a few other techs that similarly don't show up until well after they would've been done even as a formal job historically - Iron Working in Classical Era or Executions in Medieval for example. Even some of the placements within an era are really weird, Monarchy being the last tech you get in the Ancient Era for example.

NewMars
Mar 10, 2013


Anfauglir posted:

Even that doesn't really work here though, torturers as a job are way older than the middle ages. There's a few other techs that similarly don't show up until well after they would've been done even as a formal job historically - Iron Working in Classical Era or Executions in Medieval for example. Even some of the placements within an era are really weird, Monarchy being the last tech you get in the Ancient Era for example.

To be fair, that's about right if it's following in the vein of regular civ's tech placements.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Talking about tech weirdness in this mod like its not an often mocked part of all Civ games seems a tad odd.

Prav
Oct 29, 2011



note sure what's so weird about having iron working in the iron age tbh

Aerdan
Apr 14, 2012

Not Dennis NEDry


xelada posted:

I think it, like many techs, are less so much a case of your people inventing/discovering it, but more that it has been formalised, codified, specialised and or ritualised.
So before the tech "torture" is mostly beating the person/stabbing them in "unimportant"places/etc. is done wherever is convenient at the time, and is done by basically anybody, which can be used to get what you want, but has the bad habit of killing them before you can get what you want from them.
After the tech, rulers are likely to have someone (or multiple people) who's job is "torturer", a person who knows how to cause as much pain/fear/etc. as possible with as little chance that the "esteemed guest" expires before they can spill the beans; additionally these acts are done in a designated space, room or building, which will likely have a number of tools and implements made for explicitly and only for torturing.

tl:dr: I think it's less: "your people have invented Torture!" and more: "your people have invented the Pear of Anguish!"

Most of the implements of torture that we're aware of were invented in the 19th century, including that one. Nobody bothered to get creative with that kind of thing, since torture is a means to an end, not something that was done for the fun of it (sadists aside). I think what happened here is that the devs figured the Spanish Inquisition was a good starting point (even if that was actually Renaissance-era rather than Medieval). :shrug:

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007


Aerdan posted:

Most of the implements of torture that we're aware of were invented in the 19th century, including that one. Nobody bothered to get creative with that kind of thing, since torture is a means to an end, not something that was done for the fun of it (sadists aside). I think what happened here is that the devs figured the Spanish Inquisition was a good starting point (even if that was actually Renaissance-era rather than Medieval). :shrug:

Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition because they were behind in tech.

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




Grapplejack posted:

Also :pcgaming: nanopunk :pcgaming:

Psshaw, Nanopunk? Crystalpunk is where the cool hipsters hang out :pcgaming:

sniper4625
Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the hEnd


Off hand of what I remember, this mod has the following punks: clock, steam, diesel, atom, bio, cyber, and nano. Something for everyone!

WhitemageofDOOM
Sep 13, 2010

... It's magic. I ain't gotta explain shit.

Telsa Cola posted:

Talking about tech weirdness in this mod like its not an often mocked part of all Civ games seems a tad odd.

Why can't i research printing press in the classical era?

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Alright, so I'd like some feedback from this thread regarding a fairly troublesome issue that I'm dealing with.

I played a bunch of turns ahead in preparation for future updates and things went well, some good things happening, some bad things, all very interesting stuff (to me anyway). Except that all the AIs in my game refused to expand at all. They'd build their first Tribes upon reaching Tribalism, as expected, but they never sent their Tribes out. They'd just sit in the city doing nothing. One civ has had their Tribe sitting in their capital for 50-60 turns at this point.

I'd seen in the forums that other players had similar problems with AIs not expanding properly early on, so I decided to do some investigating and see if I could find the problem myself (score one for C2C being open source and being a programmer :v: ) and yeah, it turns out there's quite a significant AI oversight that was causing settlers to not form escort parties properly except in lucky edge cases. And without an escort party the AI will never send their settlers out. A simple fix of this oversight and a couple other issues I found and now all the AIs are immediately sending their Tribes out with proper escorts and settling cities all within 5-10 turns or so, as you would expect.

Ideally I'd just leave this as a footnote for my updates, but this opens up the question of what I should do about the turns I've already played. Simply having a second city (even without the extras from Chiefdom) would itself be a pretty big boost to the AI and them not having that second city for up to 50-60 turns while I expand to the five-city limit means they're going to be behind the curve even more than they already are. But at the same time, having to replay from earlier on would kind of suck, especially in me having advance knowledge of mistakes I shouldn't be making during this time of the game. As far as I see it, I have three ways of dealing with this.

1) Roll back to an earlier turn and play from the point when the AI starts being able to settle cities and hope it goes better for them this time.
2) Continue play from now, but impose some arbitrary length of anarchy to my empire (trivial to do using the Python console) in order to allow the AIs to catch up
3) Just continue from here and see what happens with no changes except possibly bumping the difficulty up to Deity to compensate (Also a trivial change). Heck I may end up bumping up the difficulty regardless of which choice is made.

I'm leaning towards the second option and kind of want to avoid the first if I can. This isn't a vote or anything like that, just an enumeration of my options, I'd just like some opinions on what you think the best course is or even if it even matters that much at all.

:siren: Note: None of what I said above will do anything to delay the next immediate update since I have more than enough material to draw on before the messed up Settler AI becomes an issue. So don't consider that at all. :siren:

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN


Just keep playing.

Crazycryodude
Aug 15, 2015

Lets get our X tons of Duranium back!

....Is that still a valid thing to jingoistically blow out of proportion?




I say option 2, there's no point in replaying but also giving the AI a breather to catch up with seems fair, especially in the interest of having to keep them strong enough into the much later game.

mcclay
Jul 8, 2013

Oh dear oh gosh oh darn


Soiled Meat

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jalapeno_dude
Apr 10, 2015


Yeah just keep playing (3). The fun of this thread is in exploring the mod and messing around with doggos; I don't really care about the AI at all.

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Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


In my heart of hearts, 1 seems like the most appropriate option because Civ is the kind of game where even if you're just sitting on your rear, the very fact of having those cities up means that they're building themselves up, so you now have an advantage over the AI unless you have a moratorium on doing anything at all. And even then you'd still be wasting time, just future-oriented instead of having already wasted the time. So better to just eat the consequences now and redo the whole thing properly.

But in the long run it's all the same anyway, and the first two options are just making it even longer.

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