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Jun 1, 2011

Thus equipped by fortune, physique, and character, he was naturally indomitable, and subordinate to no one in the world.

I dont have particularly strong feelings either way, but personally Id say that if youre going to try to even things out, it would be better to do it by giving more help to the AIs than by hurting yourself intentionally.


Sep 4, 2011

2. Would you be willing to make a side-update with specific instructions about what would have to be changed to fix this bug for any goons wanting to brave this mod?

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

Randalor posted:

2. Would you be willing to make a side-update with specific instructions about what would have to be changed to fix this bug for any goons wanting to brave this mod?

That certainly won't be necessary. The current devs are active enough and the fix (seems) simple enough that I doubt it'd take much effort at all to integrate it into the SVN. Also the fix is in the DLL itself so it's not something just anyone can do unless they enjoy setting up code building tools for the job :v:

Nov 6, 2007

I'm an alien.


Jan 19, 2017

I'd go 2. No point in replaying everything, but definitely still want the AI to be the tiniest bit competitive with you.

Apr 25, 2008

Comedy option, adopt a civ or two, give them cities, and build your own late game enemy.

Jun 17, 2007

Yam Slacker


General Revil
Sep 29, 2014

"Congratulations! You're all smarter than some of the most brilliant minds on Tendao that worked on this revolutionary project."

Yeah, just handicap yourself for a while and let them catch up.

Sep 26, 2009

Loyal to the hEnd

3 let er ride, we've got ages to go yet

May 24, 2011

2. Anarchy yourself for however many turns it's been since they made their settlers and then resume. what could go wrong?

Mar 7, 2010

College Slice

3, I'm really only here to see the techs and poo poo; could care less about the AI.

really queer Christmas
Apr 22, 2014

3. If it gets boring later, you can always do something at that point to make things interesting.

Dirk the Average
Feb 7, 2012

"This may have been a mistake."

Why not go in to the world builder in game and gift them some stuff as compensation? If you don't want to spoil yourself, you can ask someone else to do it for you.

Nov 12, 2016

The hat is mandatory.

3. I'd really rather not have you intentionally do suboptimal play or have to replay so many turns.

Oct 29, 2011

can't you just worldbuilder them a couple of extra pop in the second city once they settle it?

3 anyway actually 2, just skipping a few turns is nbd

Infinity Gaia
Feb 27, 2011

a storm is coming...

2 sounds good, but it's not like the AI is ever in any way competitive in any Civ game anyways.

Jul 1, 2015

3 because this is a 4X game and the AI is a cheating bastard, and always will be. They'll magically catch up all the sudden no matter what we do, no reason to handicap yourself as a result.

Apr 19, 2003

Don't handicap yourself, give the AI something to compensate, move on, so call it 3.

Feb 22, 2013

I'd suggest 2, keeps things going while giving them a bit of a bump to catch up.

General Revil
Sep 29, 2014

"Congratulations! You're all smarter than some of the most brilliant minds on Tendao that worked on this revolutionary project."

Hitlers Gay Secret posted:

3, I'm really only here to see the techs and poo poo; could care less about the AI.

I voted to let the AI catch up, but honestly, this sums up my thoughts. I'm here to see the techs.

May 29, 2013

No, that's Magic!

4. World builder in 2 extra cities or tribes and their escorts for each of your opponents, and continue from there. Is that feasible?

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

One other thing I can do is just continue as is, except also "guide" the AI to beeline Chiefdom so they can get their full complement of five cities sooner since otherwise who knows when they'll consider it important enough to go for :v:

Sep 6, 2010

A Veritable Smorgasbord!


Dec 18, 2015

2, no need to do extra work but it'd be nice to see a little bit the mod's combat & conquest against vaguely threatening enemies.

Cerebral Bore
Apr 21, 2010

Fun Shoe

3. If the AI is busted already, then the AI is definitely going to get busted again down the line, so no sense in trying to replay it every time it happens. Just keep playing and give the AI some goodies if you feel the need.

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

2 seems like the best option.

Nov 13, 2012

Just keep going! 3!

Nov 27, 2007

kw0134 posted:

Don't handicap yourself, give the AI something to compensate, move on, so call it 3.

I vote for this. Just cheat in a ton of tech or money for the AI or something.

Sep 13, 2011

One more turn (3)

Jan 11, 2016

Arf arf ruff aroo!

Dec 24, 2013

2 Everyone is too obsessed with fawning over their new canine buddies to worry about stuff like science and economics and stuff.

Jade Rider
May 11, 2007

All the pages have been censored except for "heck," and she misread that one.

3, just keep going.

Jun 25, 2013


King Doom
Dec 1, 2004
I am on the Internet.

Not quite on topic, but anyone know how long or what it takes for a barbarian city to convert into a new civilisation?

Apr 2, 2010
Assmagus, LPer ass-traordinaire

King Doom posted:

Not quite on topic, but anyone know how long or what it takes for a barbarian city to convert into a new civilisation?

It needs to reach a certain culture amount, so it depends on the AI building culture stuff.

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008

C2C Gameplay Chapter 10: Who Let The Dogs Out WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF

(I'm sorry)

One annoying thing about having a second city is that animals subdued by hunting will always teleport to your nearest city, not just your capital. This can be good of course, but considering every subdued animal has 1 movement and trails don't provide any movement bonus, getting unique animals back to the capital for their myths or other buildings can take a while.

Dogs on their own aren't particularly strong against units on defensive terrain even with their bonuses, and themselves don't get any defensive bonuses so you want to be wary on how you move your canine units. Ignoring terrain costs helps a lot.

Aside from the Chiefdom civic, we get the Chief's Hut, a nice building that reduces maintenance slightly and adds espionage points among other things, and the Governor's Pets a building that can be built by almost any animal that provides an extra happiness and culture. Minor, but welcome.

Drying shows us where Salt is and allows a couple useful buildings. The Drying Frame in particular is quite important as a prerequisite to later buildings.

Apparently dogs are good enough to domesticate rhinoceroses? Who knew? :v:

Sewing is pretty self-explanatory, though I wonder what all our citizens have been wearing all this time if Clothing wasn't a thing we had before.

Here we have our first glimpse at the power of Surround and Destroy. Simply having my Ambusher flanking this Stone Maceman from behind turned this from a battle with evenish odds to a landslide victory. Also behold my feeble attempts at trying to use paint tools in this LP.

Canine units come with a whole host of unique promotions tailor-suited to their unique purposes. Aside from bonuses to specific type of units, we see a lot of bonuses to Surround and Destroy modifiers like Lunge, Unnerve, Enclose and even an immediate option for increasing movement speed. Dogs are quite versatile, as you'll see.

I also use a newly captured wolf to bring Koda into the world, in memory of a lost friend. :unsmith:

Clothing is one of those manufactured resources that don't provide any real direct benefit to our empire but allows the creation of lots of useful gold-producing buildings later on. Even now building a Seamstress's Hut would add 1% additional gold if we had Dye somehow. Maybe later.

Just look at them, aren't they cute? :allears: Profitable too.

Oh right, forgot about this promotion. It's not technically a Canine-specific promotion like the others as any animal can take it, but it's pretty fearsome.

Humankisser is going to be kissing a lot of humans, that's for sure.

While roaming about, I've gotten a second stack of units ready to go towards the Stone site way to the Southeast. Same as last time, property control units, a bunch of animals, and an escort unit. Not shown though is that I sent about six Gatherers on a quest to build a looong Trail path from Kanesh to the prospective new city site. Hopefully by the time the stack arrives the Gatherers will be there ready to improve all the needed tiles. Of course the Gatherers are being protected by a dog because what else is Man's Best Friend going to do? :shittydog:

Tanning allows all the components of making Leather which will be very helpful for a lot of different things, moreso for us because we have no way of making Cloth, which is typically used interchangeably with Leather for building requirements.

I mentioned in a previous update that there was a line of buildings devoted specifically to Trade, and with a new city I finally have a reason to start investing in them. You see, cities in C2C don't actually have any trade routes by default. Instead you create them in each city using buildings that represent a means of travel. These buildings are typically unlocked along with their respective movement-related improvements, but there are also additional Trade buildings representing more unconventional means of travel that you can build for additional trade routes to complement the normal ones every city has access to. Those buildings typically have some sort of cost associated to them but are almost always worth building if you have an available city to connect to.

I believe I mentioned this too, but commerce isn't the only thing carried by trade in C2C. The food and hammers are minimal for now, but will become an important part of our economy as our trade infrastructure develops further.

Hey, remember when I said I was using my last Red Fox for something else? And remember when I said I wanted to make a Camp(Fox) but couldn't because those Beavers technically weren't in my capital's workable radius?

Kanesh doesn't have that problem. :woop:

All my hunting/killing with my Spearman and dogs put me just over the points needed to get a Great General, our first one of the game.

The Great General has all the usual functions you'd expect from Civ 4. Can settle it for extra experience, can attach it to a unit to give it experience (though that option kind of sucks since it's only 30 EXP and experience is quite easy to come by). You can also use it for a golden age if you want and even build a couple Military Traditions that provide bonus experience and other benefits to units built in all our cities.

What we're using it for is this though. Turning a Great General into a Field Commander makes its other Great Person functions unusable, but allows it to function similarly to how a Great General works in Civ 5, except more elaborate. More on this later.

Getting to Leather is not totally trivial and requires the acquisition of Tannin via the Tannin Maker, which itself requires Bark. Leather also requires a Drying Frame, as you might expect.

Wow that's quite a tech there. Animal Husbandry is a pretty big tech and leads to a ton of useful things, not the least of which are the Farm buildings, which build upon the Camp and Herd buildings we've been creating up to this point. It also provides the next level for many of our Canine promotions.

Boksi has taken both Hunting Dog I and Bark, cementing himself as the symbolic successor to our great hero. :patriot:

This wasn't totally planned, but I managed to have my Gatherers as well as two Ambusher cargo holds of Captives reach the prospective Stone city site precisely when the Tribe stack arrived. Just a nice bit of serendipity that makes you feel good knowing that everything went just right :)

And thus Carchemish is founded. One tile off the coast but I'll live with it.

Our leadership unit hanging around the jungles Southeast of Carchimesh is our first unit to reach Hunter IV. As has been said before, this is quite a powerful promotion to have and almost puts him on par with the late Boksi. Just look at that 70% Subdue animal chance.

Carchimesh gets all its animal and slave infrastructure up and running. It's not quite the level of Kanesh was at turn 1 but it's still quite a large kickstart.

Also evidently our city is technically closer to China then to us? I suppose having the Liberation option front and center is nice? Maybe?

Uh oh, looks like the AIs are starting to send out their Ambushers. Though why they've chosen not to be invisible is beyond me. Still gotta be careful, they can and will pick off my Trackers if I'm not careful.

Missile is aptly named. :shittydog:

Huh, I think this is an event carried over from base Civ 4 BTS, though I can't be sure since I never play that game with events on. +1 happy for 10 turns is absolutely meaningless, let's see what the other options are.

:lol: :lol: no

Rather than wait for new wolves or foxes, I've elected to build a couple more doggos from my capital. See, the dogs I created from subdued animals are free, but they also start with zero experience. It was actually quite a struggle even getting the first promotion on most of them because I had kind of run out of things to kill close to my borders. :sweatdrop: Dogs built in my capital, on the other hand, start with 6 EXP right off the bat, so they can be double promoted immediately however I please.

Wait, hold on, what's going on here.

Oh, right. Yeah, I said I wasn't going to revolt to Chiefdom until I got my third city. Naturally, I got my third city and then just stayed in Anarchism for a while afterwards, silly me! Nothing a quick revolution won't fix.

Oh come on :argh: I could understand the last one cause it was a triple revolt but going to Chiefdom alone takes two turns too?

(It's not actually a big deal I was just surprised)

Our empire finally gets Stone from Carchimesh, so we've got a couple additional options open to us. I could use the Stone to build the Neanderthal culture and take advantage of their units, but frankly I think it's too late for that. If I had started with Stone in my capital I would have done that the way I did in my test game.

Still, we've got Stone Huts now. You can start to get an idea looking at our Housing of just how valuable they can be later in the game when their bonuses really start to add up.

The Shepherd unit is the animal version of the Healer. Not that it does any disease control or anything like that, but that it specifically provides bonus healing to units with the Heals As(Animals) Sub Combat Type whereas the Healer provides extra healing to units with the Heals As(People) Sub Combat Type.

Yeah I'm probably going to do a whole update going more in-depth into Sub Combat Types in the future, because that's pretty important.

Wait, what's this? A Middle Eastern Culture in the Prehistoric era??? Something we might actually be able to build for once??? :aaaaa:

When do we reveal Tin Ore anyway?


Portable Shelters allows some additional Housing options and a bunch of additional Cultures. Naturally, none of them are Middle Eastern because we're still not allowed to have nice things.

One of our dogs gets an Astrological promotion. Scorpio looks to be useful this time, seeing as our dogs are going to be roaming the countryside for possibly their entire lives.

Speaking of which, Pupper, Doge, and Doggo are born, and are each promoted to Pack Hunter II, giving them each devastating bonuses when engaging in a Surround and Destroy combat.

With Stone, we can finally build a Quern and gain access to Flour. It also gives some additional food since we have Barley in our capital.

I should also mention what the Farms actually do. Farms are very similar to Camps in that each requires having the animal resource of that type and provides base food and gold. However, they also each provide a very substantial bonus to food in the form of +1% if you have Grain, Grass, and Straw respectively. Grain and Straw we've had for a while in our capital while Kanesh managed to give us Grass by virtue of having the very tall grass terrain feature in its borders. This means that every farm we build in a city for a different animal provides up to an additional +3% to our food generation. This should lead to having some very big cities down the line and you want to build these as soon as you can.

Humankisser is doing a dang fine job finding humans to kiss. Just look at how passionately he's kissing that Scout, the Scout is turning bright red from embarrassment! :unsmigghh:

Alright, so now the fun begins. This Atlatlist has been lodged on this hill since forever. I want to get rid of it, and I have my strong Stone Axeman nearby to do so, but I'd really like to kill it with an Ambusher for the increased capture chance. Of course, my Ambusher doesn't have a chance of breaking through the much stronger, fortified unit on defensive terrain. What to do?

We give the Atlatlist nowhere to go, that's what. Attacking with three dogs and the Axeman surrounding the unit confers an astounding -93% defense penalty, enough to turn what was an impossible battle into a reasonable one.

Not that I'm willing to gamble such a valuable unit on 75% odds, so the Axeman ends up taking care of the job anyway. But hey, it's the thought that counts.

We're not done yet though. See, there's also this annoying Stone Maceman on my borders that's been hanging out on that forested hill for a dozen turns now. It won't attack into my Spearman and I can't break through those defenses without probably losing a strong unit. What to do?

I think you know the answer :getin:

Pupper, Doge, Doggo, and Koda just because he was there all surround the Maceman. -100% defense and one combat later and the Macemen is dispatched with ease.

You know, I had originally gotten all these dogs out just for fun and because :shittydog: memes and all that, but I wasn't expecting them to be really really good for taking advantage of a mechanic I had ignored up to this point. After all, the only reason I could get such a quick surround on problem units like these without fear of counterattack is the Canine units' speed and lack of terrain movement costs, something that isn't available to any other combat-focused unit I can build. Or at least not one that with a hard cap like the Ambusher. Nope, unlike the Ambusher, I can build as many of these Dog units as I want.

And oh, I will.

The Ger is a Stable-type building meant for improving Mounted units but is specifically locked to Tengriism. I could probably go for Tengriism if I wanted but I'm more keen to skip out on the Prehistoric religions and go for something in the ancient age instead.

Poultry Domestication unlocks a lot of things, though sadly not much of it is useful to us, as all the Catcher buildings require animal resources we don't have and can't get. Additional farms are always welcome though.

Killing any unit with a Field Commander on the same tile as the attacking unit also gives experience to the Field Commander. The available promotions are bonuses that can be conferred to combat units near the Commander at a certain range (specified by CR, CR 1 means only units on the same tile I believe). The number of units that receive the bonus is limited by a Field Commander's CP, or Control Points.

I choose to make my Field Commander a Slave Master, as acquiring Captives is the immediate means of improving the output of both current future cities. If it gets to the fifth promotion level that's an extra +20% capture chance, a substantial bonus.

You can see that I'm quite enjoying the Surround and Destroy mechanics :getin: . It looks like overkill, but this is really the only way my Ambusher can get acceptable odds on the unit.

Welp, I was a bit overzealous with my Leadership Tracker and now he's going to be attacked by a much stronger unit. Those defensive bonuses are overcome by the Maceman's natural bonus against my unit, and it dies in the following turn.

Why do I keep losing only my really good units? :argh:

The Tannery provides Leather, but is also a pretty good building in and of itself. +2 hammers and some percentage bonuses with easily acquirable resources and additional military unit production. Well worth building in all cities if you can.

Good news, this tech allows yet another Middle Eastern Culture, the Medes!

Bad news, it requires Jade in the city :argh:

Petroglyphs comes and goes, and there's nothing much to say about it. Some marginal but cheap buildings, some PC wonders, and a bunch of Cultures we can't build.

Oh hey, a Great Prophet for once, from one of the two unmet AIs who founded a religion. As for Narayana Guru

Wikipedia posted:

Narayana Guru (August 28, 1855 September 20, 1928) was a spiritual Sage and social reformer of India. Born into a family of the Ezhava caste in an era when people from such communities, which were regarded as Avarna, he led a reform movement in Kerala, against the injustice in the caste-ridden society of Kerala. to promote new values of spiritual freedom and social equality.[1] His efforts were reported to have been a major influence in several social reforms in Kerala.

Good on him.

Animism is a gateway tech to more religious-focused techs in the Prehistoric Era. We could have gone here ages ago as it's only one step removed from Shamanism but that's just not the type of game we were playing here.

Armed with new knowledge about slave mechanics, I manage to get enough Settled Slaves in my capital to get a second production slave. Can't say no to +8 hammers even with the unhappiness and Disease/Crime and whatnot.

Oh right, my Thieves are still a thing. And it seems France has finally gotten around to taking care of its massive Crime problem by building 8 Enforcers. Yeah, that will probably be good enough for them, time to steal some money and come back later.

This is probably the Maceman that killed my Leadership Tracker, heading towards Carchimesh :argh: Don't you worry, his time is coming.

The Sage's Hut provides some gold, happiness, and Education, which is nice and all, but it's also I believe the first generic building that has a Priest specialist slot. I'd like to look more into what additional abilities Great Prophets have as I hear they can be quite powerful.

And it turns out China is our first (known) AI opponent who's managed to reach Tribalism and revolt to better civics. He will no doubt start building his Tribe and get his second city out, finally starting the dominoes of AI expansion.

Or at least that's what you would think. As I've already explained in this post, that's not quite how it shook out. Well, you'll all be happy to know that I've decided to play on from the point where I made that post and hope the AI catches up. Since some expressed a desire to help the AI as opposed to hindering myself in this effort, I've also decided to put all the AIs on the path to Chiefdom since they seem hesitant to go down that research path and allowing them all five cities instead of two should help a lot in letting them catch up.

But that's for down the line. We've still got quite a lot happening in the mean time, so just wait until then.



Sorry for the delay, weekend and the lead-up to was busier than I expected. The SVN has also fixed the AI bug I talked about and also incorporated a couple other small but interesting changes I'm eager to see in action, so take a look if you're keeping up.

Super Jay Mann fucked around with this message at 23:51 on Apr 8, 2019

Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:

Super Jay Mann posted:


Oh boy, there were some things about boats that annoyed me, and I look forward to hearing that they were fixed, how I should have been organizing the boats in the first place, or your lovely misadventures with these fine aquatic vessels...

Assuming they aren't all devoured by Great White Sharks the instant you move two spaces away from the shore.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Apr 8, 2019

Yami Fenrir
Jan 25, 2015

Is it I that is insane... or the rest of the world?

:gonk: Dogs are so much better than i thought. Clearly every man, woman and child needs a canine friend. Or three.

Sep 4, 2011

So do you just have the dogs travel in a stack with the main attacker, then split off and surround the target, or do they just wander across the countryside as a swarm of angry dogs and converge on the nearest source of enemy flesh?


Apr 4, 2009

by Nyc_Tattoo

Yami Fenrir posted:

:gonk: Dogs are so much better than i thought. Clearly every man, woman and child needs a canine friend. Or three.

I hope this mod allows us to upgrade the dogs to robodogs, cyberdogs and mechadogs as we progress up the tech tree.

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