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Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Sorry for the delay, been busy with some things and while I waited for some further technical issues to be addressed I kind of got on another Minecraft kick the past week or so :sweatdrop:

Update will definitely be ready tomorrow which will bring us to the Ancient Age at last.

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Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



By "tomorrow" I clearly meant "two days from now" :sweatdrop: I, for one, blame Endgame for this.

This update was played in SVN version 10537 with very slight fixes incorporated by me.

C2C Gameplay Chapter 12: ~Celebrate Good Times Come On!~



Animal Riding is needed for the first tier of most generic mounted units and their unique cultural counterparts. It also leads to Tengriism, the last Prehistoric religion in the tech tree. I'll be deliberately avoiding that one even though it has some nifty benefits, so we'll see which AI eventually gets to it first.



The aforementioned update made a lot of changes to early game Civics to weaken both gold and research generation as the team considered the current early game economy too powerful. I'm mostly ambivalent to tweaks like this and am quite comfortable rolling with whatever changes are made for better or for worse. The nerf to gold and science in the capital in Anarchism shown here is only one example of this, most of the other initial Civics receive similar penalties that go away as you reach the second Civics in most trees. Fortunately, we're already past most of those initial Civics so the changes don't impact us too much.



One change that does impact us though is the change to the growth formula. In previous versions, the amount of food consumed by the city was a straight 4 per population plus whatever was lost to waste from overproducing. Recent updates have introduced a small percentage scaling modifier to food consumed per population in order to slow down growth that, according to testing, was becoming out of control later in the game. Basically, the more population your city has the higher this scaling modifier goes. As seen here, our capital, which is size 10 and previously only consumed 40 food, is not consuming 49 food as a result of this change. Additionally, cities across the board require more food to grow to the next size than before. This will probably slow down growth quite a lot, especially as numbers get tweaked and twisted around in subsequent updates, but I err on the side of wanting to see growth more constrained so I welcome this change in principle.




Oh yeah, and I found out at the start of this session that I'm a huge idiot. See, I had two of my War Canoes resting in my borders since Open Borders aren't a thing yet and they weren't really doing anything after clearing out the barbs in my area. Unfortunately, I unknowingly had them on a damage per turn tile, and your units will die if their HP is reduced to 0 by terrain effects. So I ended up losing both canoes for nothing :argh:



Doggo also ends up trailing the Ambusher a bit too closely and ends up on a tile where it didn't get its terrain bonuses, and was subsequently attacked and killed at high odds. Pour one out for poor Doggo, he was too good for this world :(



Ambushers in general are a real pain in the neck to deal with, a fact I've been exploiting to my benefit, sure, but still. It doesn't help that the AI seemingly has enough free XP from buildings and from being the AI to promote them to Might I right out of the gate.



Another formidable pack of animals to worry about. Also take note of the New Resource result from a successful combat success, which will provide a manufactured copy of the given resource to the nearest city, no ifs, ands, or buts. Very rare but could be a nice way to get certain resources that might not have corresponding buildings you can use to attain them.



PC Charlie Lake Cave completes in Carchimesh, and you can see why I thought building this might not have been the best choice. It's a nice boost to our yields, but it, and all the other Prehistoric Cave wonders (and Legendary Landscapes wonders for that matter) obsolete at Sedentary Lifestyle, the tech that signals the beginning of the Ancient Era and one we're not too far away from. So there's barely any time for this wonder to pay for itself before it becomes worthless.



Animal Riding also enables the Stable, which provides +2XP to mounted units. I actually thought Stables were enabled at an Ancient Era tech which is why I made the comment that I did on the Stable quest, but I guess I was wrong. No big deal either way.

We do need to build a Saddler for Saddles before we can build Stables though.



A Neanderthal War Canoe inexplicably spawns on the Pearl tile above Akuwa which is quite annoying. It ends up pillaging my fish tile and while I respond by building some War Canoes, it eventually just kinda disappears. It didn't appear to kill itself on a terrain damage tile like my canoes did, so I'm not sure what happened to it :shrug:



The Ambusher that killed Doggo appears from under the mountain pass below Kummanni and dies for its trouble... or it would, except it withdrew from my Ambusher's combat :argh: . At least it's redlined and won't survive another attack. I attempt a lot of kills with dogs and Ambushers to get more captives for enslaving, but in this session at least I got some pretty bad capture luck. Kummanni receives a new slave from France's general area but otherwise I don't get much else.




Since growing is and will probably become more difficult over time, I'm going to start taking advantage of a unit type I haven't looked closely at yet, the Caravan units. The Early Food Merchant is a free Food Bomb for any city, a way to directly turn hammers into another type of yield for any city. Using them is not really necessary but over the course of the game utilizing Caravan units to prop up lagging cities using excess production from your strong cities becomes a really nice way to effectively expand your empire and make said cities more useful more quickly. As an added bonus, they technically count as combat units so you can make them move faster to your cities with Quick/Forced March.

132 food is not a huge amount of food considering the scale we're working with, but it represents about 1/8th or so of a size 1 city's food bar which is not insignificant. I make a couple of them to boost Kummanni's growth a bit as it gets its initial infrastructure up.

As for the Early Merchant, it functions the same as a Great Merchant in base Civ 4. Bring them to a foreign city and get some gold for your trouble. Since traversing the wilderness is still a pretty dangerous affair and by default your civilian units can still be sniped by enemy Criminal units I'm not making use of these yet.



Flint Knapping allows us to make Flint from Obsidian and/or Stone and take advantage of volcanic land we might be next to.



Frederick moved his Tribe out of his capital which indicates that the changes to fix the Settler AI were successful. I had to make a couple more tweaks that were integrated into the SVN recently to fix the problem completely but otherwise the primary issue surrounding this bug should be dealt with. Not that the AI doesn't still have problems expanding, as this is the AI we're talking about and they make really stupid decisions that you just have to roll your eyes at, but at least it isn't broken like before.

Curiously, no one has revolted to Chiefdom even though all the AIs with Tribalism have reached it by now (put upon that path by me as mentioned in the last update), we'll see what happens on that front.



Well, I guess Surround and Destroy can't solve all your problems. Definitely not potentially wasting my Hunter on a 50/50 shot.



China becomes the first known Civ to finally settle a second city, Shanghai. It's right below China's capital, though because of terrain I can't actually get a good look at it with any of my units save any Ambushers I send their way. I'm just glad the AI is finally doing its thing.



Does this mean we can build a portal to the Nether? Cause I could use a couple Blaze Rods to make some Strength potions so I can... wait, wrong game. :v:



Fire Making gives extra health, a new Civic, and a couple buildings that don't matter. More importantly though, it obsoletes a certain building I've been holding in my back pocket a while, which is the reason I've avoided going down this tech path for such a long time.



That's right, with all my cities up and running it's finally time to deploy the bullet and get our very first Golden Age :getin:

Well I say Golden Age, but it's not actually a huge boost to your economy like it is in base Civ 4 simply because so many of our final yields are a result of buildings rather than tile yields. Should still be a solid improvement to our hammers and commerce for the 32 turns it lasts.




Not a bad jump from our food merchant I must say.



Germany becomes the second known AI to reach its second city. Again, I can't really get vision on it cause of the terrain, and I don't want to move my Rogue from his capital lest it get killed while out in the open.



Ranged Assaults can also increase in effectiveness via promotions, Arrow Barrage I being the first example. I also remember to mention looking at this that Ranged Assaults can in fact miss outright. And doing a Ranged Assault does use up your turn so there is an element of risk involved even if it doesn't involve damaging or losing the unit in question.





The Burned Civic from Fire Making trades in some Disease per turn for Air Pollution per turn and also reduces the amount of food our cities need to grow. A nice Civic to have, would have gotten it sooner if I wasn't saving for the Golden Age National Wonder.



Obsidian Weapons provides the next unit in the Melee units' upgrade paths.



After a couple of necessary builds, I follow the wishes of the masses and set out to make Animal Trainer (Rhinoceros). Unfortunately, as awesome as these Rhinos sound they're not going to be terribly useful unless we pick an opponent to smash to pieces or we end up wanting to take some barb cities. Just too slow and weak to use them in the field as we've been doing with all our other units. We'll see what happens though.



Assyria makes it to city number two. Carthage still isn't there though, which is alarming.



You probably noticed another Ancient Way wonder being unlocked with this tech. Don't worry, all will be explained in due time.



Slash-and-Burn provides a rudimentary way to remove terrain features like forest or tall grass or whatnot, though you don't get any yields from doing so this way. Better to wait for actual chopping if you want to clear out your forests.



My Hunter manages to find Assur, which is quite far from the Assyrian capital considering its the second city. I don't blame him though, might as well land grab what you can, especially considering the tundra abyss he started in.



I don't understand the quote or what it has to do with anything.

It'd fit right in in Civ 6.



Oh right, almost forgot about this. The upgrade is cheap and the strength increase is substantial for merged units so yeah, let's go for it.



Pictographs is yet another tech that does nothing but is a necessary prerequisite to other stuff. I wish I had more to say about it.



Why yes, I can combine my War Canoes same as any of my land units. This would've been nice to deal with the Neanderthal War Canoe if it hadn't mysteriously disappeared from my borders at some point.



Another barb city shows up Southeast of Carthage. A possibly captive farm if I can bother to get strong enough units and some Ambushers over there.



Kanesh takes over Animal Trainer (Elephant) duties and will take care of getting those units out. As said before, Elephant units in base Civ 4 were quite excellent and I imagine they'll be good here too.



Oh, I know, there's a wonder here that gives us 6 Carved Emu Eggs, a unique luxury resource. Except we need to be of Oceanian culture to build it :argh:



Mysticism enables a new Civic and improves some Natural Wonder yields, but not much else. The myths would be useful if sea animals actually spawned around me, but alas.



France has an Ambusher near his borders that is quite a pain in the neck. Fortunately I have a Scout-Hunter combo nearby to cover it but escaping from it and getting to Paris is going to be an ordeal.



Contrary to my previous statements, I did end up building some Kayaks out of my capital. They're weak and will die to a stiff breeze if they don't withdraw, but they're my only means of exploring the seas beyond France and Carthage's borders since they can enter rival territory, so Kayaks it is.\



One nice thing about having multiple cities is that if I want a fringe resource that only provides marginal yields I only have to build the required building in one city, preferably a city that can benefit from the yields in lieu of a more generic building. Building this here in Akuwa means I don't have to worry about getting it as quickly in my capital.




The big thing in Mysticism is Divine Cult, a new Civic in the Religion tree that provides unlimited Priest specialists and a number of military focused buildings to cities with your state religion along with some penalties. Notably, I will not be switching to this Civic right now as I do not have a state religion and the generic benefits aren't worth it.

And yes, that last building in the bottom is "Martian Monument", I leave the implications of such to your imagination.



Megalith Construction is focused on the creation of large, grand structures. A fitting tech for a megalomaniac such as myself. :smugdog: It also allows a number of useful unique buildings to those with Druidism, not that that matters to me as Druidism only exists on another continent. You can also see it as one of the direct prerequisites to Sedentary Lifestyle. We're getting close people.



The AIs seem reluctant to send out their settlers for a third city even though they technically can despite not being in Chiefdom yet. It's not an issue with the AI breaking, it just seems that the AI isn't building enough escort units for it to feel comfortable sending out the units. The eligible escort units they do have are either committed to garrisoning the city or are already part of the settler's escort party and are just waiting for the rest to be filled.

Carthage seems to have a similar problem, though that seems to be because the units they are building are being committed as some kind of attack force. Either way, without a proper escort the AI will not properly send out its settlers, so the only thing I can do as this point is wait. Some AIs don't seem to have this issue so I'm fine with just rolling with it. As long as we have some strong opponents I'll be satisfied with the result.



Kanesh will get Saddles going so we can get our Stables up. We're not long for Elephants on the field, I promise you that.



The Scout trying to protect my Rogue near Paris manages to survive two attacks from the wandering Ambusher but succumbs to the third. My Hunter has long since escaped, so it's up to the Rogue to find a way in undetected.



Camping around the Obsidian node west of France is a nice strategy to hope for some captives. I can just surround with my doggos and attempt the capture with my Ambusher. And even if the enemy retreats as they did here, it's easy cleanup for a 4-move unit like Missile :shittydog:

Surely nothing can go wrong with this plan :v:



Some units I have camping East of Carthage spot a roaming band of Neanderthal units. I wonder if this is the group of units that has Carthage so up in arms that it can't even put together a proper settler escort.

My Stone Spearman is strong enough that I can try and take care of them myself with Doge's support



Animal Trainer (Rhinoceros) finishes. I have time to squeeze out one Rhino from the capital before I set it out for another upcoming task...




Which will be some good ol wonder spamming. The important one being Hill of Tara, the wonder I mentioned earlier that will build a Chief's Hut in every city. That ability is impressive enough on its own, but being able to retain those Chief's Huts even after we go beyond our Chiefdom government is the real strength of the wonder. Definitely want this ASAP.



China finally adopts Chiefdom along with Burned, and now I think I see why the AIs are holding it off so long. The AI likes to revolt civics in groups to minimize anarchy time, so the AIs were waiting until they could do both Civics at once before switching. Carthage and Germany soon follow with their own revolts into Chiefdom and Burned once they reach Fire Making. Not sure what this means for Assyria though, as they're already in Burned and still haven't switched to Chiefdom. Maybe they're waiting it out for Divine Cult or something else. Hopefully not something too far into the future.

Of course, the AI has to be willing to properly escort their settlers to take full advantage of Chiefdom, so we'll see what happens.



Earth Oven does nothing except off an upgrade to the Fire Pit that we don't need and don't want. Just another prerequisite tech.



My other Kayak reaches Carthage's borders, where it comes face to face with its stronger Neanderthal counterpart. I knew this was coming, I just have to pin my hopes that if it attacks me my natural withdrawal chance will save the day.



Did you really think I'd pick anything else for our Rhino promotions? :unsmigghh:




14 turns for such an expensive wonder on this game speed is pretty good! And just because I can, I'll take the 21 turn build for Stonehenge in Carchemish as well. Carchemish is turning into quite the powerhouse city despite its current low population.

Stonehenge does exactly the same thing it does in base Civ 4 by the way, with the added bonus of +8 Tourism per turn.



Our Kayak successfully escapes! It's now able to go past Carthage's capital and sail around the north end, hopefully reaching Germany and our unknown Civ's borders without incident.



I never said we'd have to build our Elephant units, now did I? :getin:

And yes, these things are total beasts. I could probably run over the AI completely just with these things, but I won't They are quite expensive too when they aren't being upgraded by subdued animals, so that's also a consideration.



Where's a UHF "ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!" gif when you need it?



Oh right, here's something, we ended up getting Earth Oven a turn early cause of this Unexplored Island in the cove near Assyria's capital. Two more islands there net us some gold and a useless map, so nothing too special, but nice to have.



Why yes, being on the cusp of finally getting out of the Prehistoric Era does call for Celebration. A big one perhaps!



Speaking of which, I have Kanesh queue up a bunch of Gatherers, about 15 of them. Civ 4 veterans can probably guess exactly why I'm doing this.



Well this is a whole bunch of uselessness. :lol:



I manage to hit the 2% chance on a school of Tuna and get a free copy of Fish in Kummanni. Which isn't even coastal.

I'm now imagining a Prehistoric tuna farm in the middle of an oasis that stretches for generations.



Nooooooooooooooooo :argh:

Well that just sucks. Looks like the only way I'm ever getting to Germany's side of the coast is either via the ocean or by going all the way around from the other end.



Oh thank goodness I don't have to peruse Wikipedia and I can just assume everyone at least kinda knows who Davy Crockett is.



This lady, on the other hand, I definitely would have needed Wikipedia for if I hadn't gotten her myself. We turn Britomartis into a Master Hunter to replace Boksi.



Except, retcon! That wasn't Britomartis at all, that was clearly the fearsome Hunter of the jungle, Robin Williams's dad. :v:



The gimmick of this tech is giving access to the Grand Festival wonders, a series of four wonders representing Sky, Fire, Marine, and Earth that each provides a free promotion to a series of units, +1 happy in all cities on your continent, % gold modifiers from certain types of resources, and one other unique percentage bonus along with culture and tourism. They each have pretty stiff requirements (not least of which is needing to be a size 6 city) though and only one can be built in a particular city. I'll go into more detail on this in a later update but I definitely want to build at least one of these.



Oh gosh I don't even know where to start with this. Uh, this is Sedentary Lifestyle. It's kind of an important tech.



It also gives a free technology to the first player that discovers it, which I can immediately use on any one of the available Ancient Era techs that immediately succeed it. A really nice bonus if you can get it.



Oh.

Um.

So I had one of my dogs on that tile to await the next unit spawning on the Obsidian and uh, well. They died.

I have no excuses, only regret. Poor Snarles Barkley, you didn't deserve this fate :smith:



Oh. What do we have here? And so close to our borders?



I have plenty of happiness... looks like we're gonna be able to try out our rhinos after all :getin:



Our Golden Age ends unceremoniously. It was a pretty nice boost for those 32 turns.



:argh:

Well at least one of the AIs in this game seems to be on a roll. Not sure which one but I'm itching to just meet him already. This is a bummer though, I really wanted that free tech to get Ancient Era going with a bang.



I'm curious about what the source of some of these wonder images are.



Joan of Arc finally reaches Tribalism. I can only hope that France manages to settle a city before too long.



Speaking of settlers, this is quite a sight. A settling party from Sennacherib going allllll the way to the connecting area near the barb city next to China. That's quite a distance. Let me remind you that Assyria still has not revolted to Chiefdom so he will never actually settle this city wherever he's going until he actually goes into it. I'm just glad he bothered to send the settler out at all given the AI's continued difficulty in getting proper escorts going.




At long last, after so much time, at 31622 BC or Turn 580, we have reached the Ancient Era.

Yes, after 13+2 updates, over a thousand screenshots, roughly two and a half months since this thread's inception, we have finally reached the point where a normal game of base Civ 4 would start

:suicide:

----------------------

NEXT TIME: Introduction to the Ancient Era and the state of the empire.

A look at the remainder of the tech tree from where we left off at the end of Chapter 4.

mcclay
Jul 8, 2013

Oh dear oh gosh oh darn


Soiled Meat

Woo! We're finally able to build proper houses! Next up, conquering the world!

Omnicrom
Aug 3, 2007
Snorlax Afficionado




So C2C decided that every era should each run for the length of a long game of Civ?

My God, it IS full of techs...

Ralepozozaxe
Sep 6, 2010

A Veritable Smorgasbord!


I feel like you have been doing things that would require knowing how to make fire long before you got the tech for it.

Aerdan
Apr 14, 2012

Not Dennis NEDry


Ralepozozaxe posted:

I feel like you have been doing things that would require knowing how to make fire long before you got the tech for it.

Humans have been manipulating fire for thousands of years before we figured out how to make our own.

Deadmeat5150
Nov 21, 2005

OLD MAN YELLS AT CLAN


Woo! Outstanding! Soon we shall have RhinoKnights!

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Ralepozozaxe posted:

I feel like you have been doing things that would require knowing how to make fire long before you got the tech for it.

In Civ 5 you can tech Architecture before you even tech Mining, much less Masonry or Construction or Engineering.

I'd love to see what the Taj Majal made out of wood, thatch, and tree sap would look like.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


There are two upsides to the time horizon, however:

1: A large part of the early game is just building up your infrastructure. Therefore, now that the basic stuff is in place, things should move at least a little bit faster.

2: The Prehistoric is the 2nd longest era in the game (by a single tech), so even if the above doesn't hold true, the next few eras should be easier to get through.

Telsa Cola
Aug 19, 2011

No... this is all wrong... this whole operation has just gone completely sidewaysface


Aerdan posted:

Humans have been manipulating fire for thousands of years before we figured out how to make our own.

Hell we know of three bird species that manipulate fire.

GodspeedSphere
Apr 25, 2008


How's Koda? Now I'm invested in my heavenly dog reincarnation.

Yessod
Mar 21, 2007


Super Jay Mann posted:

In Civ 5 you can tech Architecture before you even tech Mining, much less Masonry or Construction or Engineering.

I'd love to see what the Taj Majal made out of wood, thatch, and tree sap would look like.

When the Spanish first arrived in the new world, they heard reports of massive cities in Brazil, but when they went to explore them found nothing. It’s only recently that we’ve pieced together what happened: there were massive cities of thousands or tens of thousands, carefully centrally planned and laid out to align with the stars, with elegant city centers and public buildings. All the buildings were wood or grass. The culture seems to have had a 95-98% death rate from small pox, so by the time the Spanish found them they were handfuls of tiny villages deep in the Amazon, the cities had been claimed by the jungle. Indigenous Brazilian tribes still lay out their villages in the same way, but now they’re villages of hundreds, rather than cities of tens of thousands.

So yes, you can absolutely have architecture without stone.

Anzrel
Dec 15, 2010


So because I am a crazy person I would like to play this, but the link in the OP does not seem to contain the right version. It gives me 38.5 which seems to be missing some features like the unit splitting and some other items. Would it be possible to a get a link to the version the Lper is playing?

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


The instructions on how to get the version with daily updates (SVN) are here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/c2c-svn-changelog.429816/

Iamyourking
Oct 26, 2007

Only courage in the face of doubt can lead one to the answer.

Toilet Rascal

Super Jay Mann posted:

In Civ 5 you can tech Architecture before you even tech Mining, much less Masonry or Construction or Engineering.

I'd love to see what the Taj Majal made out of wood, thatch, and tree sap would look like.

You can also get Gatling Guns without Gunpowder, since they come with Industrialization.

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Iamyourking posted:

You can also get Gatling Guns without Gunpowder, since they come with Industrialization.

Hey now, arrows and elastic animal sinews can go a long way. :colbert:

Bloodly
Nov 3, 2008

Not as strong as you'd expect.

There have been rapid-fire arrow-shooters in medieval times, so it's not completely unfeasible.

President Ark
May 16, 2010

:iiam:


there was a period between expansion in either civ 5 or 6 (can't remember offhand, i think 6?) where you could get The Internet without computers

(my mental image was of a discworld-style mass semaphore system; yes, semaphore is real, but not quite at the scale i mean)

Iamyourking
Oct 26, 2007

Only courage in the face of doubt can lead one to the answer.

Toilet Rascal

Bloodly posted:

There have been rapid-fire arrow-shooters in medieval times, so it's not completely unfeasible.

It's a stretch that it would be just as good as an actual Gatling Gun, and I think it still needs Gunpowder to be upgraded to a Machine Gun, but I suppose it could be essentially a giant repeating crossbow; especially since it is an upgrade from Crossbowmen.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



President Ark posted:

there was a period between expansion in either civ 5 or 6 (can't remember offhand, i think 6?) where you could get The Internet without computers

(my mental image was of a discworld-style mass semaphore system; yes, semaphore is real, but not quite at the scale i mean)

5, and it's still possible.

You can also get Rocketry, and thus the Apollo Program, without Combustion.

Grapplejack
Nov 27, 2007



Cythereal posted:

5, and it's still possible.

You can also get Rocketry, and thus the Apollo Program, without Combustion.

I'm imagining either launchers or steampunk style space zeppelins.

President Ark
May 16, 2010

:iiam:


combustion is specifically an internal combustion engine and space rockets are very much not internally combusting, so that's actually not that absurd

(it's still pretty absurd since moving the components and assembling everything without engines would be incredibly labor-intensive)

CommissarMega
Nov 18, 2008


Shhhh let me have my space zeppelin fantasy

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Funny enough, for all this talk, that's one of the things that will be solved later on, unless I did things horribly suboptimally in my run. At some point around say... the Atomic Age/Information Age transition, it will become a huge pain in the rear if not impossible to advance any further unless you've researched everything that comes before that point. So eventually history gets back on schedule, even if you're a few hundred/thousand years out of sync.

xelada
Dec 21, 2012


Let's be honest, we could fill a whole thread with weird lack of dependencies in Civ games, (or equally odd dependencies like how in Civ 5 you need to have split the atom/realised pollution is bad to be able to invent the APC).

Though it does seem that this mod's techs are more... self-contained? There is only one tech that allows you to move to the next age, and you need most of the techs from the previous age to get to it, which also means there doesn't seem to be any techs that require something from the previous age. It is certainly an unusual way of laying out the tech tree.

Kangxi
Nov 12, 2016

The hat is mandatory.


xelada posted:

Though it does seem that this mod's techs are more... self-contained? There is only one tech that allows you to move to the next age, and you need most of the techs from the previous age to get to it, which also means there doesn't seem to be any techs that require something from the previous age. It is certainly an unusual way of laying out the tech tree.

No, I think this mod still has techs that require techs from earlier eras. At least that's how I remembered it from years ago and assuming they haven't revamped it completely since then.

kw0134
Apr 19, 2003



xelada posted:

Let's be honest, we could fill a whole thread with weird lack of dependencies in Civ games, (or equally odd dependencies like how in Civ 5 you need to have split the atom/realised pollution is bad to be able to invent the APC).
Not the first time, the very first Civ required that most martial of techs, labor unions, to build mechanized infantry. No, not as a prerequisite, as the direct tech needed to enable it.

Modern tech is much more web-like than a branching tree which is what gets designers into trouble.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



kw0134 posted:

Not the first time, the very first Civ required that most martial of techs, labor unions, to build mechanized infantry. No, not as a prerequisite, as the direct tech needed to enable it.

Modern tech is much more web-like than a branching tree which is what gets designers into trouble.

Which is why I think Beyond Earth had the best tech system of any Civilization: because it is a web rather than a tree.

And the core unit unlocks even make sense:

The basic melee infantry and basic melee ships are available right off the bat.

Settlers and trade routes are unlocked by Pioneering, representing your colony officially starting to move into the unknown and settle this world.

Ranged infantry are unlocked by Physics (note: Physics in BE is code for 'reassembling all the knowledge of physics you brought with you from Earth and integrating it into your colony's scientific and technological infrastructure)

Armored vehicles are unlocked by Engineering (same thing as Physics, it's not that you're discovering anything new, but you're unpacking all the know-how you brought with you and integrating it into your colony with adjustments for local conditions)

Artillery, submarines, and ranged warships are unlocked by Computing (more of the same).

Aircraft are unlocked by Robotics (more of the same, air units in BE are explicitly unmanned drones).

Carriers are unlocked by Fabrication (noticing a pattern with the early techs? This one at least also represents adapting advanced manufacturing methods from Earth to local conditions and resources).

Coward
Sep 9, 2009

I say we take off and surrender unconditionally from orbit.

It's the only way to be sure



.

Super Jay Mann posted:



I don't understand the quote or what it has to do with anything.

I love this. All the quotes in this game feel like someone has done a CTRL+F in Wikiquote or something, and then just put down whatever the first hit is regardless of whether it makes any sense.

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!



Coward posted:

I love this. All the quotes in this game feel like someone has done a CTRL+F in Wikiquote or something, and then just put down whatever the first hit is regardless of whether it makes any sense.

True, it does feel that way.
They still manage to be better than the Civ 6 quotes somehow. (On average, this particular quote is quite bad)

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



xelada posted:

Let's be honest, we could fill a whole thread with weird lack of dependencies in Civ games, (or equally odd dependencies like how in Civ 5 you need to have split the atom/realised pollution is bad to be able to invent the APC).

Though it does seem that this mod's techs are more... self-contained? There is only one tech that allows you to move to the next age, and you need most of the techs from the previous age to get to it, which also means there doesn't seem to be any techs that require something from the previous age. It is certainly an unusual way of laying out the tech tree.

There's only one tech that's visibly connected to the Ancient Age via arrows and will actually give you access to the new era techs, but much like Civ 4 techs can have prerequisites all over the map if they so please and, in fact, many of the "dead end" techs in Prehistoric Era are themselves prerequisites for several Ancient Age techs, like Obsidian Weapons precedes Archery and Slash-and-Burn precedes Agriculture.

Also you most certainly do not need most of the techs from Prehistoric Era to get to Sedentary Lifestyle, I could have rushed it ages ago. All you actually need is anything leading up to Tribalism, Megalith Construction, Animal Husbandry, and Earth Oven while going straight through Chiefdom to SL. This means I could have skipped all of the naval techs and all of the animal techs save AH and :shittydog: from the top of my head.

Not that you'd get very far into Ancient Age without those techs, but you can certainly start it at least.

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007


Omobono posted:

True, it does feel that way.
They still manage to be better than the Civ 6 quotes somehow. (On average, this particular quote is quite bad)

C2C quotes aren’t read by Shawn Bawn (Seen Bean?), tho.

Gridlocked
Aug 2, 2014

MR. STUPID MORON
WITH AN UGLY FACE
AND A BIG BUTT
AND HIS BUTT SMELLS
AND HE LIKES TO KISS
HIS OWN BUTT
by Roger Hargreaves


Sean Bean

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Super Jay Mann posted:

Not that you'd get very far into Ancient Age without those techs, but you can certainly start it at least.

Also we haven't talked about it that much, but the game can penalize you for heading up the tree without the backline techs.

Beeline Stings is a (default?) gameplay option which automatically raises the cost of all techs in each preceeding era by 20%. So it is very possible to try and hit Ancient Age, only to find out that you're tech blocked, and now you find yourself falling behind if it's a close game because you need to research all the predecessor techs and everything takes a turn extra to research (or more) than it used to because you tried to jump the gun for the free tech.

It may still be worth it depending on the situation, and arguably there's very few times you'd be in a close enough game in C2C for it to matter but it at least makes you think a little bit about whether you want to be going up "right now".

Jossar fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 29, 2019

Pvt.Scott
Feb 16, 2007



That clears up nothing!

Super Jay Mann
Nov 6, 2008



Jossar posted:

Also we haven't talked about it that much, but the game can penalize you for heading up the tree without the backline techs.

Beeline Stings is a (default?) gameplay option which automatically raises the cost of all techs in each preceeding era by 20%. So it is very possible to try and hit Ancient Age, only to find out that you're tech blocked, and now you find yourself falling behind if it's a close game because you need to research all the predecessor techs and everything takes a turn extra to research (or more) than it used to because you tried to jump the gun for the free tech.

It may still be worth it depending on the situation, and arguably there's very few times you'd be in a close enough game in C2C for it to matter but it at least makes you think a little bit about whether you want to be going up "right now".

Ah yeah, I thought to mention that as well but forgot about it. For what it's worth, Beeline Stings is disabled in this particular game.

Not that that means much because you can also enable or disable almost every pre-game option via the Worldbuilder at any point during the game, though for some of the options changing them would introduce inconsistencies with the already played game state that would be hard to resolve. There's a lot more flexibility to tinker with my play session than I've let on.

Bloodly
Nov 3, 2008

Not as strong as you'd expect.

Pvt.Scott posted:

That clears up nothing!

"Shorn Been". That''s how you pronounce it.

MJ12
Apr 8, 2009



I reinstalled Civ4 for this mod because I love incredibly overstuffed nonsense and I'm kind of annoyed at how little the demographics screen seems to scale its population numbers.

I've got 6 cities, one size 5 and one size 6, and the demographics screen tells me that I have all of 2250 people in my empire, which is kind of incredibly lame.

sebzilla
Mar 17, 2009

Kid's blasting everything in sight with that new-fangled musket.




Just read the entire thread up to date today, LP owns.

I installed C2C years back but never got far with it. Rhye's and Fall (and it's successor, Dawn of Civilization) we're always my bag.

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Ghost Stromboli
Mar 31, 2011


This mod looks daunting to get into so I'm glad the LP exists to show it off. I still want to try it purely because terrain in the mod really looks good. It looks like it's more enticing to explore and inhabit the space around you.

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