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Seafaring.
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Apr 6, 2020 01:02
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boats butts
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Apr 6, 2020 02:29
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A recent update shortened the end of the tech tree and removed C2C's best visual joke 
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Apr 6, 2020 04:40
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Oh you have Complex Traits on, interested to see how the continued improvement of specific Traits plays out since that's a bit of a different type of progression than the old system I'm currently stuck with. Seafaring I
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Apr 6, 2020 06:27
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Seafaring Our start seems to straight up require it.
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Apr 6, 2020 06:49
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 6, 2020 07:05
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I'll break from the pack and throw a dark horse vote for a non-listed option: Medical. In my experience, controlling crime is relatively trivial if you keep an eye on it, but the experience growth for medical units is way behind that of law enforcement units. This trait will really help in avoiding having to spam a dozen health care units in each city to keep disease in the negative, as you can get away with much fewer and keep your production focused elsewhere.
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Apr 6, 2020 16:45
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Calling it for Seafaring. A pretty blowout vote, all things considered.
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Apr 7, 2020 00:22
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Jossar's Playthrough - Prehistoric 6  The first order of business is switching our tech research: Trap Fishing is the first really useful tech for using the water effectively. Firstly, in that you can’t work water tiles without it, but secondly it reveals a lot of the fish resources. And it turns out that the waters around Karakorum are positively teeming with aquatic life. I reassign all the city’s workers and now growth will happen in a fraction of the time it used to without sacrificing too much productivity.  Raft Building! It lets us build the first sea unit in the game as well as grant it several combat promotions. I queue one up ASAP.  Isn’t it a beaut? I send the raft down the coast to explore because the annoying bird up top won’t get out of the way. More are to follow.   Composite Tools is the first part of a family of techs that we get at this time that upgrade and diversify the melee warrior pool: Axemen are anti-unit, Macemen are anti-city, and Spearmen are anti-animal. This is the part of the game at which you can really start arranging units for specific purposes rather than just throwing whatever your best tech unit is and hoping it sticks. I haven’t talked about Ranged units at all so far even though I’ve had access to some for ages. That’s because they suck right now. Slingers are 2 strength, which is drastically behind the rest of the units here. This is disastrous, especially when taking Size Matters into account. A combined unit’s Strength is based on the initial strength of the units used to make the combined unit. A set of combined Slingers is 3 Strength. A set of combined Stone Macemen is 6 Strength. Even with inbuilt City Defense promotions, ranged units just can’t hold out if an enemy has good quality melee units. Atlatl Making allows you to close the gap, but it’s a surprisingly advanced tech for right now. Depending on your access to resources that’s the point when ranged units finally reach par, although melee may climb ahead again for the rest of the Prehistoric if you’re well stocked up on Obsidian.  Darius’ influence to the south puts an end to our further expeditions at the Gulf of Nole Omes. We learn that he has access to Obsidian, which is troubling since it means in the long run he might outpace us for unit quality. But we also learn that at least some of his current forces are behind the curve technologically. This gives me an idea…  Microlith is a technology on the way to building better boats. But it also comes with a wonder that speeds up military production. I build it and then start churning out melee units a plenty and more rafts.  At this time, hunting gives us access to a few more resources that are interesting for having slightly different functions than what came before. Here, Feathers serve as a luxury resource that can make citizens happier. Offscreen, a Viper provides us with poison that can be refined to provide a small automatic bonus against various units at the cost of city sickness.  And here we go, the Grand Armada. One of the perks that came with Seafaring is the ability to shove an additional unit on each boat. Normal boats can carry two normal sized units and combined boats can carry two combined sized units. The unit costs are large enough to tank my economy, but that’s 10 units aimed for an alpha strike on the Persian capital. Most performing actual combat roles, but some like the Great General are just there to provide force multiplication to the best units, and the Watcher’s just there to aid with surrounding the place. The Armada’s sent southwards, though is occasionally blocked by birds too difficult for it to fight and it has to wait to move on.   The next Great Person is unlocked, and this time with all the Trackers hunting it’s a Great Hunter. I’m tempted to save them for some more long term useful purpose, but after all my experiences I want at least one unit that I know isn’t going to die in the wilderness so I make it a Master Hunter instead.  And even before the boats have arrived at their destination, they’re already slated to be replaced. It’ll take a bit though, because you need to build a Canoe Builder before you can build the Canoes themselves.  Eventually the Grand Armada arrives at the Gulf of Nole Omes and waits a few turns to heal up because I don’t want to lose a boat if Darius has something hidden in the darkness. As improbable as that is, that would be way more damaging at this point than just losing a single Tracker, especially with it taking this long for a boat to navigate down to the southern part of the continent.  New boat is up and running, but even combined it still can’t dislodge the bird. Guess it’s time to send it south to level grind in the hopes of cracking open the northern passage.  I figure it’s been long enough that even the most damaged boat can just dump its cargo and scurry away, while the boats at full health can stay and continue their circumnavigation of the continent. War is declared, the troops are unloaded, and the city is surrounded. Even though our troops are still somewhat injured from the perilous voyage and the siege defenses of the city, Darius is caught unprepared. Some of his best troops like that Spiked Clubman are trapped and unable to come to the city's defense without being destroyed.   A combined Slinger serves as the city’s top guard, and there are a couple of uncombined Wooden Spearmen serving as auxiliary defenders. But our quick surrounding of the city and the aforementioned disparity between attack/defense units at this stage of the game means that the Slinger gets destroyed by my siegebreaker unit (a combined Stone Maceman boosted by being in the Great General’s stack). The rest of Persepolis’ units are weak enough that the rest of the army can clear out the city no problem in a few turns, gaining a few captives and some bonus research along the way. (Techs Researched but not mentioned: Bark Working, Adhesives, Simple Wood Working, Skinning, Bone Working, Flint Knapping, Axe Making, Woodworking, Carpentry, Spear Making, Spearfishing, Personal Adornments, Bead Making.) Persepolis really was the at the edge of the continent after all. This is good because as it turns out we now have the place to ourselves. But it’s bad because that means this is likely to be the only truly cheap shot we get all game. Everybody else is going to have at least until mid-late Ancient Age to build up properly unless I’m misreading the tech tree or we get lucky and find a series of coastal edge connections between all the continents. Oh and speaking of Persepolis… Should we keep it? Pros  It’s a mostly intact city – even with all the damage done and turns that will be spent rebuilding everything, it’s a big boost in overall infrastructural capacity. Resourcewise, the city has access to Salt, Incense, Coconuts, Gold, and Obsidian. All of these except Gold don’t exist in Karakorum (turns out it’s built on a Gold deposit and the city makes it hard to see), and the last one is necessary to build the next tier of melee units. Persepolis is also a source of Middle Eastern Culture if people really care about those unique buildings/units. Cons   Even if I disband many of my troops (which I might do anyway), the maintenance costs alone make Persepolis a financial black hole. When the money runs out, science production is going to take a huge hit, units can’t be upgraded, certain events can’t be bought out with gold, and other miscellaneous bad things will happen. Even if it’s only Tribalism that’s necessary to fix these problems (and it might not be), Persepolis is going to be a load dragging the rest of the civilization down for dozens and dozens of turns. This one isn’t really a formal vote. My first thought is to torch the place, but it’s just useful enough to want to hear some opinions before doing so. Bonus: Could Darius have won? No, not really. At least since we attacked him now. If Darius had managed to research Atlatl Making, Atlatlists would’ve been nasty enough defensive units that even at full strength the Stone Macemen might not have been able to smash the city wide open. Since we don’t have access to Obsidian, that would have stymied any potential attacks until early siege rams at best, or more likely the Ancient age. Even if he'd managed to get up to Stone units he might have been able to have a fighting chance, though I think I would've won in the end at a much higher cost. I was counting on this actually, I thought that he was using his weaker units to hunt and keeping a single top of the line defensive unit in his capital, which I would have to break at great expense, but returning my economy back to normal. But in a game where all the AI are supposed to have a starting advantage over me, he was still at the very bottom of the pack based on the ranking lists. He was never going to get to make it that far in the tech tree unless I suffered him to live, and letting him live is less interesting to the audience than circumnavigating the continent, so out he goes. Jossar fucked around with this message at 18:36 on Apr 7, 2020 |
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Apr 7, 2020 18:22
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1. Birds are jerks. 2. Being a financial black hole for a while will suck, but that's typical with any city take over I think. That said, it's basically access to a bunch of resources that you wouldn't get access to until you could start building new cities. I'd say it's an overall boon, though mostly a wash in the long run. Having extra culture access also gives you flexibility and more options which can be good.
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Apr 7, 2020 18:35
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I don't know much about CivIV but how hard would we need to work to bring the city into the black? It sounds like a much better starting spot than what we got and a lot of the surrounding resources are really tempting. Also starting a new city this early on was a PITA IIRC. On the other hand I don't know what negative modifiers there are and we don't want to spend longer in this era than we have to. Would burning it and later building a new city in its place be an option?
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Apr 7, 2020 18:37
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The problem isn't that the city itself is financially unsustainable, in fact it's in the black in terms of its own costs. It's that without the proper civics, there is an additional distance from the capital penalty at 44 gold a turn. This will never go away on its own and is only going to be solved via civics/tech advances/settling a new capital closer to the middle of the continent. Settling a new city here is possible. It just loses out on the special Middle Eastern stuff. And won't be for dozens of turns at least. Jossar fucked around with this message at 18:49 on Apr 7, 2020 |
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Apr 7, 2020 18:42
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Taking and holding enemy cities is such a big game changer in this mod that its hard to overstate, but yeah this early on the negative cash is going to crush you. In my experince early on is when you want to save gold so you can end up using it waaaay later. By the time gold came relevant I had something like 1.3 million gold stashed in the bank which I went through fairly quickly. Telsa Cola fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Apr 7, 2020 |
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Apr 7, 2020 19:05
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 7, 2020 19:13
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The culture group bonuses alone are worth holding the city for, unless you keep Middle Eastern culture even after razing the city after capturing it. Every continental culture group has wonders and in some cases buildings that are unique to it and that's not even getting into the national cultures it unlocks. Even if you don't plan to use heroes or unique units, denying them to the rest of the world is worth it alone.
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Apr 7, 2020 19:33
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Keep it. Mitigate the costs as best you are able.
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Apr 7, 2020 19:36
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AJ_Impy posted:Keep it. Mitigate the costs as best you are able. This, and if we reach a point that it’s starting to affect other things seriously, maybe raze it then. But I’d like to see the benefits of being multi-cultural!
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Apr 7, 2020 20:01
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Keep it, the city will pay for itself eventually and it's a pretty good location.
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Apr 7, 2020 20:24
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Speaking of resources, this game has quite a few that come from buildings that don't end up giving you a bonus or being used for anything. The buildings themselves usually give you gold or production but for whatever reason the devs never found a use for stuff like borax or magnesium ore.
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Apr 7, 2020 20:29
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 7, 2020 20:55
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Alright, based on people's advice I think i'll keep the city, so here's how i'm dealing with the damage: - The gold stockpile is going to tank super fast no matter what, but it can still be mitigated a little bit. Captives are going to be reintegrated back into the city to try to feed its growth back up rather than saved for buildings just to get them out of the way ASAP, the military is going to be reduced to a skeleton crew. City maintenance personnel, hunters, and the current boats will stay up, but there's going to be a moratorium on building new units for the time being, at least until I go completely broke and it doesn't matter anyway. - Since getting out of financial insolvency is priority #1, research will be switched to techs that get rid of the maintenance penalty or otherwise make money. -Persepolis is going to be focused on building just enough hammer improvements to get it out of the eternal build cycle, but is then going to be trying to make up for as much of its costs as possible. Likewise, Karakorum is going to build any building that would add gold for a while. Switching to Commerce producing tiles might occur, but I can't afford to sacrifice actual production/growth for damage mitigation, especially while the rest of the economy is on lockdown. That's about all I can really do for the moment. Fortunately, there's no one left to take advantage of Mongolia in this moment of weakness, so we should be fine, unless I somehow manage to permanently hamstring the civilization's growth in the process.
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Apr 7, 2020 20:58
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Would building a city between the two locations mitigate the income penalty?
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Apr 7, 2020 22:04
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Only if I build a Palace to designate that city as the new capital. I'm going to try to do that, but it's a long process. Jossar's Playthrough - Prehistoric 7  After a few turns, Persepolis stops being a hole in the ground. Well, becomes slightly less of a hole in the ground. I'm amazed at what gets destroyed when you take over a city from another civilization and what doesn't.  The next level in crime fighting technology becomes available, but we can't afford any of this for the time being. Worth looking out for in the future though.   There we go, a tech that's all about the money. Building a couple of the barter buildings should start getting us back in the black. It also comes with a civic that helps a little, but barely noticeably so.  Persepolis' borders extend outwards again, reconnecting its gold deposits. Not the unique stuff though, that's gonna take a while. But then again we won't have Obsidian Weapons for a while anyway.   There we go, Tribalism. I start commissioning a Tribe immediately so a city can be founded in the middle of the continent to try and lessen this mess. Unfortunately, the civic turns out to be awful for our current situation and is ignored.   Truly a battle for the ages. Hey is that...  It is! We're connected to another continent by a series of rocky shoals. Gonna get a tracker up here when I can to explore, but they're kind of deep in the jungle hunting at the moment.  We get this mysterious ranking list. Someone else has a 2nd city already?   Another fairly nice civic upgrade that we can't get because of the cost involved.   Goody huts trying to encourage us to do crimes. Not really interested even independent from cash.  A Tribe is created. Turns out I can't fit it on a boat, so I guess it's gonna need a guide as it marches down through the wilderness.   The outskirts of the 2nd continent are fully mapped. It's at the northern edge of the world, and at this point we really don't have anywhere left to explore. I cut down on the bog standard boats to have our money hold out as long as possible, and send a tracker up to conduct exploration.  Well, I held out as long as I could but we finally go broke. Science drops 25 points.   I already mentioned Atlatl Making before but a funny quirk about it is that since it boosts the Stone Tool Maker, combined with other fund raising efforts, we're finally net positive income again... as long as science funding remains 0. Oh whoops, is it time for another trait vote already? Jossar fucked around with this message at 00:50 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 00:42
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Jossar's Playthrough - 2nd Trait Vote Positive Traits Options for positive traits are the same as before. My recommendations this time are going to be really boring because we defined our strategic approach pretty well last time and this time I really just want to put out the house fire. Scientific  Same logic as before applies: Our science isn't where i'd like it to be, here's a chance to get some of it back without investing in a properly working financial system. Financial  This whole experience has shown that at least for the duration of the early game, we really do need a working financial system. We're on the verge of solving the problem by establishing a new capital in the center of the continent, but we should probably make sure this doesn't happen again. Civilized  Picking either of the above options either leaves us with a lot of useless money long term or not enough of it now. Here's a balanced option. Negative Traits Oh right, we get one of these guys now.    You know it seems kind of weird to offer recommendations on how to screw me over. Just pick one. For this vote i'm not going to take suggestions involving removing the other positive traits. Gotta be something negative. Vote lasts 24 hours from now. Jossar fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 00:42
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Edit: the old post was waaaay late, so here's a vote instead: Civilized for the positive Minimalist for the negative Akratic Method fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 00:43
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Scientific and Minimalist. No clue what Minimalist does, but what the hey.
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Apr 8, 2020 00:46
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I think Scientific. We can prob get gold from improvements we get out of that gargantuan tech tree and honestly Civilized sounds pretty garbo. If this doesn't pan out, we can grab Financial later Gluttonous for the negative  
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Apr 8, 2020 00:51
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Given the circumstances Covetous sounds like the most appropriate negative trait  And go Financial
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Apr 8, 2020 00:55
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Positive: Imperialist Negative: Foreigner idk what either of these do.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:14
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Civilized and pacifist. Go the Ashoka route and be so horrified at the brutality of the conquest of Persepolis that we do a full 180.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:16
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Civilized and Barbaric. Lets be a land of contradictions.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:18
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Super Jay Mann posted:Given the circumstances Covetous sounds like the most appropriate negative trait Yeeeees, let's go Ebenezer on this. The acquisition of wealth is surely its own reward, if I understand modern society correctly.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:19
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sincx fucked around with this message at 06:12 on Mar 23, 2021 |
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Apr 8, 2020 01:21
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Financial and Covetous
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Apr 8, 2020 01:29
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you may have noticed this already, but it looks like there's another shoalbridge south of darius' former territory connecting to more land: e: Civilized because we're all about nationbuilding, and impulsive because that's exactly what we were when we ganked darius.
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Apr 8, 2020 01:32
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Archduke Frantz Fanon posted:Civilized and Barbaric. Lets be a land of contradictions. I'm going to quote this one only because it's literally impossible. The picture with Civilized in it says that Barbaric can't be picked as an opposing trait. That's because their effects are literally opposite so it's the same as cancelling out Civilized. President Ark posted:you may have noticed this already, but it looks like there's another shoalbridge south of darius' former territory connecting to more land: Sadly that's not a shoal bridge. It might look like one graphically, but you can tell that it isn't because there's at least three tiles of water separating the two continents. Two tiles away from any form of land is always at least Sea if not some deeper form of Sea. We get to mournfully stare across the sea knowing that there's land that can't be reached for another Age. Jossar fucked around with this message at 01:48 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 01:42
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it looks like two tiles to me V Ve: it might be that you're zoomed out further than how i usually have the game President Ark fucked around with this message at 02:02 on Apr 8, 2020 |
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Apr 8, 2020 01:59
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Jossar posted:I'm going to quote this one only because it's literally impossible. The picture with Civilized in it says that Barbaric can't be picked as an opposing trait. That's because their effects are literally opposite so it's the same as cancelling out Civilized. Pfft and this game claims anything is possible 
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Apr 8, 2020 02:04
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Financial and Covetous because might as well get bad side with the good one. Sounds like we're gonna be able to hit time compression for everything up to compass or whatever enables deep water navigation, perhaps star gazing and pirogues, or some ME merchant culture.
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Apr 8, 2020 02:39
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Civilized Stubborn
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Apr 8, 2020 02:51
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