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Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Well this looks interesting.

If nothing else, it's encouraged me to try a game in the mod to try and join you in the trainwreck.

(EDIT: Just downloading the thing is already causing my computer to eat posts, that's not a good sign.)

Jossar fucked around with this message at 21:35 on Feb 8, 2019

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Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Super Jay Mann posted:

Maybe it's partially my fault for being unclear but I should say in no uncertain terms that my comments on the game are most certainly not an invitation to play through it yourself. I mean, feel free to if you feel you'd get something out of it but it takes a certain uh... mindset to power your way through this experience and I wouldn't wish that kind of thought process on anyone :v:

My only goal is being able to convey the experience properly through this LP. I may or may not succeed but I sure as heck am going to try.

Having tried it out for a few hours my result is that i'm not a person of that mindset...

But mainly because I forgot that I like watching Civ LPs more than I like playing the game itself. So that would probably have been the case even if I was playing Vanilla Civ. :v:

There are some interesting things that will be popping up soon-ish from a viewer perspective, so at least for us it won't be quite as tedious. But as has been stated numerous times before: for the player this is a long haul.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:




No context needed for MAD MAX FURY ROAD!

I have no idea when, if ever, this lets up. To be fair, I also had a lot of military units die because I wasn't paying attention, but still it's kind of horrifying to see that the entirety of the map is out for your blood the instant you leave your hidey-hole.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


B

Home is where the heart is, and I love the world.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Zurai posted:

I'm seconding this motion. C, Nomads for doggos and early economic boost. So what if it falls off 150,000 years down the line?

Then we haven't gotten the trait's worth, since it'll still be the prehistoric era. :shepicide:

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Status report on the run this LP inspired me to try:

The giant barbarian doomstacks eventually wind down, but i'm uncertain as to whether there's an actual variable in play decreasing their numbers after a certain time point or I just expanded hard enough to decrease their spawn zones...

And expand I have, as I now basically control the entirety of the world that I can actually reach. This is mostly because I got a capitol snipe on the weakest player back in the Prehistoric, which let me catch up to my opponents' tech advantage in Ancient and then wipe out everyone on my continent by Classical. I'm aware of two other civilizations who comprise the other 25% of the world, but I cannot reach them as they lie across the ocean and I only just reached the Medieval Era. The tech for ocean-faring boats is one of the latest ones on the medieval tech tree, one of the many fun facts about boats that i'm sure Super Jay Mann will describe in "loving" detail as boats become relevant. But for now i'm just going to be spending the next 100 turns (probably more than that) waiting to get the ability to steamroll the last parts of the earth map. It has pretty much become a waiting game at this point, with the occasional poke to my cities to make sure that they aren't doing anything too stupid.

The main thing i'm curious about is if the Caveman2Cosmos AI will be able to actually provide a decent, but not overbearing challenge on Immortal. In my experiences with the game, the AI either walks over you from its bonuses or you leverage human ingenuity to get a slight advantage which then explodes into you owning the entirety of the map. Then again, i'm not a very good player so maybe the dynamics are different at the most challenging difficulty settings.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


EDIT: Beaten to the explanation by the actual person with game expertise.

Some actually "useful" content though: Part of the reason why they don't change the name is that there's other buildings dealing with stone tool production. So if you called the city one a Flintknapping Site, that would leave people confused with the similarly named building that shows up if you have Flint as a resource.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 05:13 on Feb 16, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


A lot of this follows the general pattern of Civilization where you have to invent things that you really should have already discovered already for the sake of introducing new mechanics to the game instead of dumping them in your already busy start, so I can't blame the mod creators too much. Especially when things are even more complicated here. Alas, the idea that this isn't humanity as we know it is not one of the reasons: Anatomically modern humanity has a bit of a problem in terms of its origins, but relatively recent findings show that humanity may in fact be older than the start date of the mod: https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/06/world-s-oldest-homo-sapiens-fossils-found-morocco

Also, as someone who introduced Cannibalism without knowing what the heck it did, I can explain what happens: It never goes away naturally, but as you get later and later in the game it starts applying worse and worse unhappiness debuffs to your cities. You can eventually remove it as an option from your civilization via a Great Person (but not every type of Great Person can do it) or a Lawyer unit (that can only be produced way further down the tech tree) removing it from your capitol.

Of course, that's actually a simplification, since this is C2C. What it ACTUALLY does is build a "Worldview - Cannibalism" building in your capitol, which builds a seperate "Worldview - Cannibalism: Active" building in each of your cities (including the capitol) which enables the effects universally, and as the techs are introduced and (I think) cities reach a certain size, the cities auto build penalty buildings which are what provide the extra unhappiness.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot - Cannibalism also has default happiness/unhappiness modifiers that it provides based on civic types. So if you're running a suitably bloodthirsty enough civilization already, then it may actually be net neutral or give a slight happiness bonus to your cities.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Feb 22, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


oh no how did i get here this is not sustainable city planning

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


To put that in perspective, the final tech of the game, if I researched it now, would take around 1700 turns of my current science production.

So the answer to your question is: ridiculously so.

EDIT: Also, I edited out the map lest it distract from this mess, but this is with the entirety of the land part of the planet apart from this border mountain range under my control. I'm 300 years ahead of schedule compared to how the devs planned it. This will likely take even longer for SJM who is playing on Immortal, rather than Prince difficulty , and thus will likely not wipe the map by Renaissance. Then again, I am not very efficient, hence why playing on Prince in the first place, so who knows?

Jossar fucked around with this message at 22:18 on Feb 23, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


NewMars posted:

Why the hell do you have moon druids?

It is so much dumber than that.

The real Moon is so far away you can't even see it yet, even with all of this nonsense. Cislunar represents Space from the beginning of orbit until you reach the Moon. The row of mountain peaks is just supposed to be there as a neat little flourish marking the difference between where Earth ends and Space begins. As you'd think from three rows of solid mountain peaks, there's nothing useful here, just a bunch of moderate hammers. You also know that you're not supposed to be here because the entirety of the mountain ranges are blocked by a row of ice that land units cannot move over...

Except there's an Industrial era tech that lets your work ships break through the ice barrier. And there's an even earlier tech that lets you move onto and settle mountain peaks for the purpose of creating Machu Picchu-like cities and having really durable workers. So you can build cities at the very edge of the mountain range and have their culture expand out into orbit, because according to the game it's just another tile, albeit one with different terrain features.There's no real purpose to doing this except for maintaining 100% map control and to give me something to do while I wait for the game to tick over to late Atomic when the next meaningful period of advancement begins.

The closest "narrative" equivalent to this is, in the equivalent of the 1800s, shoving a small village on the top of Mt. Everest and claiming that everything from the town's geographic area up to space is your sovereign territory.

They're druids because I didn't bother to research religion early on, seeing it as a waste of time when I had to play the tech catch up game, and instead just converted from the first city I captured. At this point the entirety of the civilization's cities have converted to Druidism and i'd lose a lot of bonuses if I tried to convert to something else without MASSIVE prepwork, based on both the state religion bonus and civic related stuff.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Feb 24, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Never enough techs.

Also, I think my game's bugged. I managed to get Lawyers and still can't remove Cannibalism, so unless there's some secret menu option i'm not noticing, my civilization will just be eating people for the rest of time.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Super Jay Mann posted:

I think Emancipation Proclamation gets rid of all the worldviews? Try going for that or, failing that, perhaps a Great Statesman?

I've had the Emancipation Proclamation for a while, all it does is add an extra happiness in all of your cities. Maybe the Great Statesman might help, though with all the other players eliminated i'm not sure what I can do that's really "statesman" like.

It's mostly a matter of curiosity as for all intents and purposes, apart from those cities at the edge of the world which will EVENTUALLY get connected to the rest of my civilization (the tech allowing you to do so is pretty darn late, all things considered), the rest of my cities have basically locked themselves into equilibrium where they have ridiculous food gen and thus can never decrease from their current mid-tier city sizes but are otherwise messed up industrial holes unable to grow.

The back half (?) of the Atomic has been spent using a tiny fraction of my research power to research religions while rolling towards actually useful techs and trying to spread literally every religion to every city. Again, this is mainly for amusement value since even all of the religions combined wouldn't have the happiness boost levels to actually change the situation, although a small number of the buildings might be useful for other reasons.

I've learned enough that I would do things differently if I played the game again. But while going through the whole game once is an interesting experience (and I want to see for myself how crazy it gets), it isn't really fun enough to want to do it a second time.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 06:42 on Mar 1, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Banemaster posted:

Do you have the Lawyer in the correct city? It needs to be in the city where Cannibalism originally started from.

Yep, he's been parked there since the Renaissance.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


I was going to leave a funny comment here, but nothing I can say is really going to top the juxtaposition to that last post.



(This is also the last one of these I post, because the ways in which the game flips out become less visibly interesting after this point.)

Jossar fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Mar 4, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Deep Dish Fuckfest posted:

Oh god there's something wrong with me the more i read this the more i want to give it a shot and it can't be entirely ascribed to civ4 being the best in the series oh god please send help this isn't normal

It's horribly mesmerizing that way. I've lost dozens and dozens of hours at this point just wanting to see what's next.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


oystertoadfish posted:

i don't think anybody ever finished a fall from heaven LP on this forum. not seeing anything in lparchive.org. if i'm wrong, i'd love to get a link - but if i'm right, one of you should make an LP for it so i can see the whole story!

the same thing goes for Crusader Kings II's After The End but that's not related to this thread

These might require archives, but...

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3515773 - The big FFH LP that I remember, has a link to a bunch of others on-site, including one for Rise from Erebus and one for the scenarios. I dunno if these go through literally everything, but there's a lot there.

https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3725369 - The After the End LP. The first playthrough died due to a save file corruption and the second one petered out but it's still a pretty good read up until that point.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 05:32 on Mar 5, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Also probably a matter of sunk cost at this point - especially for big mods like C2C and FFH, even if people wanted to reinvent the wheel it would be a massive undertaking to create the same level of content for a new game. Combined with the fact that the modders still don't see themselves as done, for example the C2C mods are currently in the middle of discussing how to introduce new late-game mechanics, why switch over?

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Industrious and :sparkles:.

Only through hard work and industry shall we achieve the wondrous, shiny future that is to be!

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


I have come to the conclusion that C2C is indeed the most realistic of all mods, as I stand here in a board room meeting trying not to throttle the five Great Engineers who won't shut up about trying to put diesel engines on everything despite the fact that my civilization has had clean energy for years, the Great Merchant who is advocating inventing a religion to make money, and the Great General who is adamant that I issue a formal proclamation that the grouper be made the navy's mascot, so that the army will stop making fun of them for not having a mascot.

(I would acquiesce to the last one, but I need to keep the general around in case I need more golden ages in the future.)

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Man, the more I look at this, the more I realize that I just sort of opportunistically bungled my way to dominance over the AI in my game rather than having any sort of coherent plan for it. Glad to see you're actually managing to use espionage and the criminal units as intended.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 14:06 on Mar 13, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Only truly human robots can understand what it means to make beads better than a traditional craftsman.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


King Doom posted:

Unicorns, phoenix from either hawks or eagles and I wanna say one more?

Dragons from various big scaly lizards.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


I think it's great that the dev was willing to answer your questions!

That said, here's my reflections on their reflections. Mostly on concept stuff, since i'm not great enough on mechanics to really argue those one way or another.

quote:

Too many people play games to get to the end. This one is so that each phase of the game feels like its own game and that many games within the one game are taking place. It's making the point that the game is enjoyed in the playing, not in racing to an end achievement, but in each little one you experience along the way. Your experience in playing with your hunter [RIP Boksi ] was a good example of this

This was how I played the mod... but a lot of my experiences, especially in the Industrial/Atomic Era, were made up because I wanted to try and give myself a narrative rather than because one naturally existed. Once you finally defeat the AI, you are going to have a long period of time where things are mind numbingly boring and static because you are lord and master of the planet and there's nothing you can really do for AGES apart from developing a faster and faster engine. And it WILL happen. SJM admitted as much, and someone I spoke to on Discord who was a more experienced C2C player that said that if any of your opponents are left past turn 1000, you are suffering them to live. I found myself racing for an end achievement until the space phase started because there wasn't anything to do apart from colonizing silly places on the map or trying to spread eleven religions to all of my cities, or hunting all the animals to extinction, which didn't reflect the real human experience during these ages and felt like I was trying to distract myself after I had reached some Fukuyama-esque End of History. I finally put the game down at Nanotech (although we'll see how long that lasts this time :v:) because the experiences that did open up once I finally made it off planet just seemed like, after the brief initial expansion period, it was going to be several hundred more turns of the same.

quote:

BUT, this is a turn based strategy game that's intended to be experienced rather than simply beaten and that experience should be truly epic. I mean the subject matter begs for it, does it not? We're talking about a game that covers all of human history and everything we suspect lies ahead. How can that NOT be a HUGE game? Why would one even want it to be a glossed over game without any finely detailed resolution on that one mega story - the story of Mankind as a whole?

Civ has always disappointed me with how much detail it lacks considering the topic matter. In Civ I I understood that it was due to limits in computing. Also true in II. Beyond that, it seems the limit is established by the public's overall terrible attention span rather than the limits of design. With C2C, one should find it has made them smarter, wiser, deeper and has given them new perspectives on every aspect of Humanity's existence just to have played it. And it should have been as realistic a simulation as possible, while maintaining a 'What if' element throughout it's design.

That said, where details are concerned, the team has a deep and rich history of arguing savagely over various subjects. And how much to include or not include has always been a big one. I don't agree with everything we have in the game being there, but I also understand this is a conglomeration of donated efforts and I tend to defend the works of others because I know it was all a labor of love by those who contributed. You'd also find, that as the mod's team leader, I'm trying to address each individual problem with a sense of prioritization. Some building reviews to get them to work a bit more in harmony with one another, particularly through era upgrades and in resource generation and consumption, are pending much more development soon. But y'know, this ship IS huge and it's like trying to drive a barge... it takes a lot of time to make any large adjustments. My traits took 3-4 years to develop alone.

I like this motivational statement. I really do! I am not that much of a fan of Civ IV and was mainly in this for the C2C experience of seeing all of human history...

But, as a way of trying to sum up my feelings from above in a way that directly addresses the mission statement: C2C's scope was too big after all. And not in the sense that people are talking about with regards to there being 5 billion animals or buildings or techs or mechanics. It's possible to have a lot of options and they can still be weird, fun, and informative. C2C is too big because Civ INDEED really isn't that ambitious, and the mod is trying to shove the entirety of human history in a game that isn't built to last as long as it takes to tell that story. You might as well stop playing the game in the last half and just read the Civilopedia instead.

I'm not sure what could be done about that, even if the game was built from scratch (which I recognize is not practical here based on what the dev said), because it's a common strategy game problem. Design it as some kind of variant city builder instead?

Jossar fucked around with this message at 02:24 on Mar 17, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


WhitemageofDOOM posted:


It's scope expansion, you have a bunch of mechanics that work fine with 1-4 cities and then break down at 15+.
I would argue this happens to strategy games because expansion comes by adding new "cities" rather than just slowly pulling out.

Sure when you are a city state you build individual buildings, but when you are a Nation State you should instead be building a "University grant" that when finished creates a "Universal secondary Education" project.

I'm going to half disagree on this and say that's the one problem that is at least recognized. Even though you mechanically reach the post-Earth content by adding new cities, those cities have different building trees and are eventually meant to be much different in scale from your earlier cities. So even if what you list here isn't quite executed perfectly, the devs did think about how things should zoom out, as far as they could twist the baseline Civ mechanics for a single map.

But the fact that it takes until the Nanotech era for stuff like that to start showing up is pretty indicative of an emphasis on trying to plan things out on the basis that players will reach that far in the game despite the fact that the gameplay has been otherwise the same for a very long time.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Mar 17, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Super Jay Mann posted:




I find it interesting that we already have City Garrison III while only having City Raider I, as if early aggression in the Prehistoric Era when each player only has one city was ever a thing that needed to be guarded against. Maybe in multiplayer?


I mean, you laugh but that's how I managed to finally get ahead of my opponents in my game. Specialized to have a better military than they did and beat down the weakest player, from which I was finally able to catch up and then surpass my opponents during Ancient.

So it's a legitimate concern!

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Alberto Gonzalez posted:

What a delightfully weird civ mod. Loving it so far, at this rate we're going to space in just a couple of years!

Everyone keeps highlighting this, but the truly terrifying thing is that by the time this is true, you're still only 2/3 of the way through the game.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


In my heart of hearts, 1 seems like the most appropriate option because Civ is the kind of game where even if you're just sitting on your rear, the very fact of having those cities up means that they're building themselves up, so you now have an advantage over the AI unless you have a moratorium on doing anything at all. And even then you'd still be wasting time, just future-oriented instead of having already wasted the time. So better to just eat the consequences now and redo the whole thing properly.

But in the long run it's all the same anyway, and the first two options are just making it even longer.

3

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Super Jay Mann posted:


NEXT TIME: BOATS


Oh boy, there were some things about boats that annoyed me, and I look forward to hearing that they were fixed, how I should have been organizing the boats in the first place, or your lovely misadventures with these fine aquatic vessels...

Assuming they aren't all devoured by Great White Sharks the instant you move two spaces away from the shore.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 23:54 on Apr 8, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Prav posted:

homo superior: 9 million beakers

Seems about right for a Nanotech era tech. I made it up to just about to that point in the tech tree in my game before I stopped and you're making several million beakers a turn, so depending on how much of your civilization you devote purely to beakers, you could have it up and running in 2-3 turns.

Also, I see that all :shittydog: of the future also do double duty as Scruff McGruff the Crime Dog.

Jossar fucked around with this message at 14:33 on Apr 9, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Gotta go with Rhinos.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


There are two upsides to the time horizon, however:

1: A large part of the early game is just building up your infrastructure. Therefore, now that the basic stuff is in place, things should move at least a little bit faster.

2: The Prehistoric is the 2nd longest era in the game (by a single tech), so even if the above doesn't hold true, the next few eras should be easier to get through.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


The instructions on how to get the version with daily updates (SVN) are here: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/c2c-svn-changelog.429816/

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Funny enough, for all this talk, that's one of the things that will be solved later on, unless I did things horribly suboptimally in my run. At some point around say... the Atomic Age/Information Age transition, it will become a huge pain in the rear if not impossible to advance any further unless you've researched everything that comes before that point. So eventually history gets back on schedule, even if you're a few hundred/thousand years out of sync.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Super Jay Mann posted:

Not that you'd get very far into Ancient Age without those techs, but you can certainly start it at least.

Also we haven't talked about it that much, but the game can penalize you for heading up the tree without the backline techs.

Beeline Stings is a (default?) gameplay option which automatically raises the cost of all techs in each preceeding era by 20%. So it is very possible to try and hit Ancient Age, only to find out that you're tech blocked, and now you find yourself falling behind if it's a close game because you need to research all the predecessor techs and everything takes a turn extra to research (or more) than it used to because you tried to jump the gun for the free tech.

It may still be worth it depending on the situation, and arguably there's very few times you'd be in a close enough game in C2C for it to matter but it at least makes you think a little bit about whether you want to be going up "right now".

Jossar fucked around with this message at 16:05 on Apr 29, 2019

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


SSNeoman posted:

So we can't cross into the ice up north?

Like a lot of this game the answer is "You will be able to eventually, after another 3000 turns."

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Pvt.Scott posted:

Canít wait to run a galactic empire of thousands of worlds, all broken down into normal Civ maps where I have to move individual units to plant space trees.

You laugh but the devs have mentioned wanting to implement galactic panspermia at some point, so pretty much literally this.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Yeah, that seems like a fairly ridiculous amount of gold for this point in the game. Eventually it'll be pocket change, but that's not for several eras yet. Seconding SJM on how easy it can be to spend it all once you start getting serious about buildings though.

Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


Clearly religion is being picked on the basis of the sound that the priests make upon converting cities, and therefore SJM is waiting for Rodnovera.

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Jossar
Apr 2, 2018

Current status: Angry about subs :argh:


President Ark posted:

Can you post an image of just the map where we can see everything? I'm having trouble picturing where the other nations are relative to you.

you do not know what you ask for it is too horrifying to contemplate

(This is not a problem yet, but funnily enough the devs haven't gotten around to fixing Satellites to work with space maps, so once it's researched you gain the ability to see the whole map, including some stuff that is utter nonsense for you being able to see at that point in the game.)

Jossar fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jun 4, 2019

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