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Peaceful Anarchy
Sep 18, 2005
sXe
I am the math man.



Zephro posted:

Fair enough, that's true. Though I wonder what proportion of original buyers buy all the DLC. There's also all the $200 premium edition stuff that didn't exist back then too.

The fact is the RRP has roughly halved in real terms even as dev budgets have ballooned and team sizes have gone up by 1-2 orders of magnitude. Almost everything else I can think of has got more expensive since 1995, it would be odd if games being an exception somehow had no effect at all.
Sales have gone up by orders of magnitude too and digital distribution means marginal costs are incredibly low, so where a $50 game in 1995 (games were not $60 in 1995, I think $40 is actually more in line with what they were), would, after physical production and distribution net a return to the publisher of $10-$20, a $60 game in 2020 nets a publisher $30-$45.

Here's Descent retailing for $29.99 in 1996: https://web.archive.org/web/19961220010550/http://www.interplay.com/descent/descent.html

Peaceful Anarchy fucked around with this message at 21:02 on Feb 23, 2021

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Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





Zephro posted:

hm "Bobby Kotic rear end propaganda"; good argument

I'm not here to break down how corporate pay structures work for you. There is a plethora of resources out there for you to find if you ever want to stop licking CEO boot.

Angry Lobster
May 16, 2011

Served with honor
and some clarified butter.


Xerophyte posted:

Freespace: the Masquerade

Anyhow, I think Volition are an Embracer/THQ Nordic thing, and therefore Paradox's sworn mortal enemies and rivals in the Swedish Publisher Thunderdome.

Now that would a game worth playing.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


I definitely want Obsidian to make this when there last game was "A Competent Fallout 3 with a plot that no one remembers outside of center of the road liberalism that pretended to be socialist themes" and "So-So sequel that sets things up for another sequel that might never come out"

Western Role Playing Games are loving dead, unless done by a Russian or Polish indie or small AA studio. I suggest getting into JRPGs ladies and gentlemen

buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

NutritiousSnack posted:

Western Role Playing Games are loving dead, unless done by a Russian or Polish indie or small AA studio. I suggest getting into JRPGs ladies and gentlemen

Itís kinda wild that the vast majority of games Iíve gotten a lot of time out of have been from smaller studios lately. Cyberpunk was the last AAA I got invested in and I couldnít really tell you which one I was into prior to that. Maybe MGS5? I know Iím crossing genres here but itís cool that something is partially filling the gaming void left by the apparent collapse of the giants.

Also I canít get over how well the voice acting and facial animations were for bloodlines. I played it in 2015 for the first time so the graphics were very clearly dated, but the emotions you could see and hear in the voice acting were nuts still and made it feel like a high production game.

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


buglord posted:

Itís kinda wild that the vast majority of games Iíve gotten a lot of time out of have been from smaller studios lately. Cyberpunk was the last AAA I got invested in and I couldnít really tell you which one I was into prior to that. Maybe MGS5? I know Iím crossing genres here but itís cool that something is partially filling the gaming void left by the apparent collapse of the giants.

Also I canít get over how well the voice acting and facial animations were for bloodlines. I played it in 2015 for the first time so the graphics were very clearly dated, but the emotions you could see and hear in the voice acting were nuts still and made it feel like a high production game.

i like alot of AAA games because i know they will be at least fun but yeah, i havent had a good deep rpg in years. can't wait for the new ME remaster because yeah its not the deepest but i love the world. but yeah cyberpunk kinda "broke my heart" a bit. like yeah there are still games i am looking forward too(deathloop, UBISOFT game number 239373424) but that was the big HYPE game.

Josef bugman
Nov 17, 2011

Chomsky Boi

NutritiousSnack posted:

I definitely want Obsidian to make this when there last game was "A Competent Fallout 3 with a plot that no one remembers outside of center of the road liberalism that pretended to be socialist themes" and "So-So sequel that sets things up for another sequel that might never come out"

Western Role Playing Games are loving dead, unless done by a Russian or Polish indie or small AA studio. I suggest getting into JRPGs ladies and gentlemen

They are dead if you want the graphical set up to be top notch.

I personally really really loved Disco Elysium. But I think the problem with RPG design in "the big leagues" is that they are trying to tell a story whilst also reacting to choice. That seems to be extremely hard to do for a bunch of reasons.

Dpulex
Feb 25, 2013


Why is every new AAA RPG either a broken piece of loving garbage or boring poo poo?

buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

Dpulex posted:

Why is every new AAA RPG either a broken piece of loving garbage or boring poo poo?

My only guess is that the more money goes into a project, the more risk adverse people become developing it, and then with games that have hundreds of hours worth of content that only a percent or two of all gamers will see (supposedly modern asscreed games are like this), it becomes nightmarish to polish everything while still keeping within the terrifyingly high budget?

Thatís my thread driveby analysis of the games industry but I would actually like to hear why this is seemingly the case.

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

Zephro posted:

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Says $60 in 1995 is $103 today, and that's only to keep up with inflation. The scope and workload for an AAA game has absolutely exploded since the days when Goldeneye was cutting edge

edit: and I bet the kind of super-aggressive discounting pioneered by steam means a lot sales happen at some fraction of RRP anyway

The cost of individual games isn't really a relevant point, imo. Much more relevant that the amount of money spent on games in aggregate has skyocketed. And that companies are poo poo at using that money effectively, much like movie studios with their stupidly expensive tentpole movies that need to make more money than most countries to pay off.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


Dpulex posted:

Why is every new AAA RPG either a broken piece of loving garbage or boring poo poo?

Because the current TREND is a Battle Royal shooter and also JRPGs seems to dominating that side of the market now, even though that makes no sense people will buy both.

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


Josef bugman posted:

I personally really really loved Disco Elysium.

I clarified the Slavic block and Indie A to smallish AA publishers in general are still good and alive. Disco loving rocked

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





NutritiousSnack posted:

I definitely want Obsidian to make this when there last game was "A Competent Fallout 3 with a plot that no one remembers outside of center of the road liberalism that pretended to be socialist themes" and "So-So sequel that sets things up for another sequel that might never come out"

Western Role Playing Games are loving dead, unless done by a Russian or Polish indie or small AA studio. I suggest getting into JRPGs ladies and gentlemen

you're the first person I've seen who called Pillars of Eternity 2 "so-so." That game was awesome.

Dpulex
Feb 25, 2013


NutritiousSnack posted:

Because the current TREND is a Battle Royal shooter and also JRPGs seems to dominating that side of the market now, even though that makes no sense people will buy both.

loving hell the BR and hero shooters. Does the industry have a single original idea that isn't a half assed cash grab or a soulless derivative copy of overwatch?

NutritiousSnack
Jul 12, 2011


NikkolasKing posted:

you're the first person I've seen who called Pillars of Eternity 2 "so-so." That game was awesome.

Gameplay was a fine continuation of the previous one, I just could not care about the story or how it didn't resolve itself.

Dross
Sep 26, 2006

Every night he puts his hot dogs in the trees so the pigeons can't get them.



Descent was a semi budget title with a development cost estimated at under 500K, whereas a contemporary AAA flagship game like FF7 was closer to 40 million. A modern AAA game can crack 250 million. And the top names on the cartridge based consoles were upwards of $80 due to cost of production. Optical media were a godsend and dropped game prices by like $20-30, and then they kinda never rose again.

TheAnomaly
Feb 20, 2003


Zephro posted:

A big part of the problem is game prices have been stuck at $60 for 20+ years

This has been covered, but A) it's the xbox 360 era that sees game prices increase from 50 to 60 dollars, and many PC games came out at under 50 prior to that. So it's a 15 year time period without an increase, and in that time sales of games have gone up dramatically, DLC sales have gone up dramatically, things like sports games can sell enough in DLC to pay off the entire budget of EA games by itself. It's not "there's not enough revenue" problem, it's a "people will take poo poo pay to make games" problem.

NutritiousSnack posted:

I definitely want Obsidian to make this when there last game was "A Competent Fallout 3 with a plot that no one remembers outside of center of the road liberalism that pretended to be socialist themes" and "So-So sequel that sets things up for another sequel that might never come out"

Western Role Playing Games are loving dead, unless done by a Russian or Polish indie or small AA studio. I suggest getting into JRPGs ladies and gentlemen

JRPG's tend to be grindy, which is boring as heck. Wasteland 3 was great, PoE 2 was great, Baldurs Gate 3 has been doing really well in early access. Cyberpunk 2077 has made truckloads of money despite all of its problems. Elder Scrolls VI is highly anticipated, so much so that all the Sony fanboys who don't buy MS stuff have threatened to not buy any more MS stuff if it isn't released on playstation, even though they'll all get it on PC anyway.

In actually coming out, Diablo 4 has been announced, Avowed will be Obsidians take on an FPSRPG, ES 6 has been announced, you know there will be a Fallout 5 coming down the pipe as well, InXile doesn't have anything announced but they could do another Wasteland or Bards tale or something actually new because the studio is still active.

ErrEff
Feb 13, 2012

Have you heard the good news?

Look deeply into my eyes.

STADIA!


About game costs:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-01-08-the-future-is-digital-right

quote:

According to Sony, only 41% of Sony's PlayStation games in the second quarter were sold in the physical format, down from 55% in the same quarter in 2019. This only helped to consolidate PlayStation's revenue from digital sources -- including downloaded software, add-ons, and networking services -- which reached 77% of all global game revenue. GSD data for the UK shows a similar trend. Across the first three quarters of this year, physical game sales only accounted for 25% of sold units and 32% of sales value (among the 18 major publishers who share digital data with ISFE).

Physical overheads are getting smaller and smaller, even as costs increase. This means less physical advertising material, less manufacturing and fewer distribution deals with foreign partners. It's then also possible to "double-dip" later down the line with an exclusive physical release, for example when a port for a previously unsupported platform is finally released. The Switch and PS4 have had lots of those over the years.

And people own and buy more games than ever before thanks to digital now:

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/pressreleases/358308/How_many_games_are_you_away_from_becoming_a_Games_Collector.php

quote:

Digital game distributer Fanatical surveyed over 6,000 people to understand the growing trend of ĎGames Collectingí and to find out just how many games you need to own in order to join the club.

71% of the people asked considered themselves to be collectors, each owning a whopping 931 games on average. Considering that the average amount of games owned per person works out at 770 each, most gamers are only 161 games shy of earning the ĎGame Collectorí status.

Not the most scientific survey and probably a bit biased, but interesting.

cuntman.net
Mar 1, 2013



oh no what happened

dead gay comedy forums
Oct 21, 2011




Zephro posted:

https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

Says $60 in 1995 is $103 today, and that's only to keep up with inflation. The scope and workload for an AAA game has absolutely exploded since the days when Goldeneye was cutting edge

edit: and I bet the kind of super-aggressive discounting pioneered by steam means a lot sales happen at some fraction of RRP anyway

activision-blizzard had a record year in profits in 2020 and they fired a lot of people without compensation. given current industry ďĒĒpracticesĒĒĒ, price hikes would not guarantee any wage increase at all (that is far more of a labor struggle thing anyway)

besides, inflation had very little denting in the profitability of the industry as a whole simply by its sheer growth outpacing it by far and wide

Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Zephro posted:

A big part of the problem is game prices have been stuck at $60 for 20+ years

The market has been expanding too though, at nearly the same rate as cost of development. Games being a digital good with no scarcity, after the up-front dev costs, you have nearly 100% profit.

So more sales is pretty much directly more income. So the cost per sale doesn't need to scale.

dead gay comedy forums posted:

activision-blizzard had a record year in profits in 2020 and they fired a lot of people without compensation. given current industry “””practices”””, price hikes would not guarantee any wage increase at all (that is far more of a labor struggle thing anyway)

besides, inflation had very little denting in the profitability of the industry as a whole simply by its sheer growth outpacing it by far and wide

100%. Games could be as big as they are, and cost $60, and developers could make a good living and work only 40-hours no more with no crunch...

...if the execs would stop giving themselves $200M bonuses every year.

But that ain't happening.

steinrokkan
Apr 2, 2011



Soiled Meat

I'm going to say the survey where even the non-enthusiasts own 800 games on average is bullshit

Jack Trades
Nov 30, 2010



That announcement looked familiar. It needed a yellow background IMO.

Savy Saracen salad
Oct 15, 2013


NutritiousSnack posted:

I definitely want Obsidian to make this when there last game was "A Competent Fallout 3 with a plot that no one remembers outside of center of the road liberalism that pretended to be socialist themes" and "So-So sequel that sets things up for another sequel that might never come out"

Western Role Playing Games are loving dead, unless done by a Russian or Polish indie or small AA studio. I suggest getting into JRPGs ladies and gentlemen

I never really understood the obsession with Obsidian. Is it because of the nostalgia or because they have a dev whom posts here? They make from ok to good games, and the last good one being NV, and it only became good because of mods and patches. Everything they released after was meh and never really grabbed me the same way as for when example, meeting the legion for the first time. The only reason why the plot of NV was good because it was based on the old van buran documents. They are not able to replicate something like this today.

Wicked Them Beats
Apr 1, 2007
STAGE 4 CANCER IS NOTHING COMPARED TO MY POSTING. AT LEAST, THAT'S MY EXCUSE.

NV is arguably still the best RPG ever made, with only Disco Elysium standing as a recent challenger. And Alpha Protocol, KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 (particularly Mask of the Betrayer) all have their adherents who will argue they represent a pinnacle in RPG gaming that is largely out of reach for modern efforts in the genre (it's me, I argue that).

Obsidian does feel like they've slipped in recent years, but out of their recent efforts I'd rank PoE2 pretty highly.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





POE1 has possibly my favorite ending in gaming history.

Shame about most of the rest of the game but Iovara and Thaos and the little backstory you've created for your PC over the course of the game more than makes up for it.

Defenestrategy
Oct 24, 2010

Worst decision I ever made.


steinrokkan posted:

I'm going to say the survey where even the non-enthusiasts own 800 games on average is bullshit

I dunno, if you have a fifteen year old steam account and take advantage of humble bundles and steam sales, grabbing a library of 500+ games probably isn't that bad.

Vince MechMahon
Jan 1, 2008





Defenestrategy posted:

I dunno, if you have a fifteen year old steam account and take advantage of humble bundles and steam sales, grabbing a library of 500+ games probably isn't that bad.

Also what is it counting as games? My mom has a computer and phone full of casual games and she's a 70 year old woman.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

Warte nur! Balde
Ruhest du auch.


Savy Saracen salad posted:

The only reason why the plot of NV was good because it was based on the old van buran documents.
???

It's not. It's not at all.

Captain Oblivious
Oct 12, 2007

Right in the Kokoro



Savy Saracen salad posted:

I never really understood the obsession with Obsidian. Is it because of the nostalgia or because they have a dev whom posts here? They make from ok to good games, and the last good one being NV, and it only became good because of mods and patches. Everything they released after was meh and never really grabbed me the same way as for when example, meeting the legion for the first time. The only reason why the plot of NV was good because it was based on the old van buran documents. They are not able to replicate something like this today.

First, tell us what you think the Van Buren design docs say lol

buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

Wicked Them Beats posted:

NV is arguably still the best RPG ever made, with only Disco Elysium standing as a recent challenger. And Alpha Protocol, KOTOR 2 and NWN 2 (particularly Mask of the Betrayer) all have their adherents who will argue they represent a pinnacle in RPG gaming that is largely out of reach for modern efforts in the genre (it's me, I argue that).

Obsidian does feel like they've slipped in recent years, but out of their recent efforts I'd rank PoE2 pretty highly.

Alpha Protocol needs a redo because the gameplay and intro level felt like the $5 Bargain Bin experience, but only then once you stuck around you saw how many little details and things shifted based on your interactions.

Iíd like to see New Vegas remade as well with less goofy voiceovers and without the shackles of that weird engine with potato faced fish eyed animation, but agree that itís one of the better RPGs out there.

If big studios have problems getting good games out, whatís the solution then? And are there any recent examples of blockbuster games being made which were highly successful but also not a breeding ground for hellish work environments?

IPlayVideoGames
Nov 28, 2004

I unironically like Anders as a character.


Have they announced that the redesigned bloodlines 2 is going to be an mmo yet?

Mendrian
Jan 6, 2013



IPlayVideoGames posted:

Have they announced that the redesigned bloodlines 2 is going to be an mmo yet?

It's going to be a moba.

buglord
Jul 31, 2010




Buglord

Mendrian posted:

It's going to be a moba.
cant wait to be called the n word by Knox for killing him in center lane.

Popete
Oct 6, 2009

This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs



Grimey Drawer

Please let the new developer be Cloud Imperium Games.

jng2058
Jul 17, 2010

We have the tools, we have the talent!


Popete posted:

Please let the new developer be Cloud Imperium Games.

Well, why not? No game will ever match what we want in our heads, might as well give it to a company that never actually releases games so it stays in our imaginations forever. And then they can charge us $100 so our character in the never released game will have Anabelle's Red Leather Jackettm!

Dapper_Swindler
Feb 14, 2012

Shitposting 24/7 without regrets. my parents would be proud.


at this point i am under no illusions that the game will be good. i am more curious how much of a train wreck it will be at release and how much it will be changed.

Foxfire_
Nov 8, 2010



I think this could either be good or bad with no way to tell right now.

Hypothetical good Paradox: "Existing game is either never going to be complete or be bad enough to do more brand damage than we would get from it. We still want to expand Vampire into games though, so get a new dev, let them scavenge whatever they want from the old project, but accept that a lot of the money so far is wasted and new dev is going to be making a semi-new game"

Hypothetical bad Paradox: "Existing game is going to take too much money for Hardsuit to finish. Cut our losses by moving it to a cheap studio to make whatever exists now minimally functional, accept that it'll be bad, and get whatever we can from it."

Boogle
Sep 1, 2004



Nap Ghost

Hardsuit should've just remastered and modernized the original game with new assets to get their feet wet. They basically bitten off more than they can chew and choked to death. Oh well, it won't be the last time this happens.

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Zaphod42
Sep 13, 2012

If there's anything more important than my ego around, I want it caught and shot now.


Dapper_Swindler posted:

at this point i am under no illusions that the game will be good. i am more curious how much of a train wreck it will be at release and how much it will be changed.

Pretty much. It was a longshot to begin with (we were probably looking at getting a worse cyberpunk experience) but now its just entertainment as failure.

I've followed a few games knowing they'll be crashes just out of curiosity though, like Star Citizen.

But it feels like they should just cancel it at this point.

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