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Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




Soft/hard clearance changes are great.

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NoEyedSquareGuy
Mar 16, 2009

Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."


Never actually used Smart Mod but I'll probably install it on my next playthrough if zooping is as far as they're going to go towards implementing their own version of it. I get wanting to limit some of the Smart Mod functionality like building entire manifolds with one click but building a big rectangle of foundations isn't really an engaging part of any build.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




Zooping seems like it should take out most of the headaches that come with laying foundation for me that I don't need more, but I might need to check out Smart as well, because one of my current building gripes that I still hope they address is the tedium of splitter->belt->machine->belt->merger.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Oxyclean posted:

Soft/hard clearance changes are great.

100% a thing that I've always been stupefied that they tried to do any other way.


NoEyedSquareGuy posted:

Never actually used Smart Mod but I'll probably install it on my next playthrough if zooping is as far as they're going to go towards implementing their own version of it. I get wanting to limit some of the Smart Mod functionality like building entire manifolds with one click but building a big rectangle of foundations isn't really an engaging part of any build.

TBQH as someone who uses Smart, there are tradeoffs and I love the look of Zoop mode. Smart is far more powerful, but if you've never used it, the downside is that there's a minimum amount of fiddling around with rotations and key-holding. I'll use both, and in some ways I think they're even complimentary.

Like, sometimes placing 5 things with Smart isn't really faster than clicking 5 times, it's just less annoying. So zoop will place 2-20 things faster than smart, but smart has a big advantage at 10x10 and bigger. Personally a whole lot of stuff I do is in that lower range. Zoop will be perfect for that, assuming they get the contextual logic about how to build based on how the player drags the mouse right.


(Also you never used smart?! You build everything in massive boxes. Cripes, your index finder must be beefy as gently caress from that workout!)


Oxyclean posted:

Zooping seems like it should take out most of the headaches that come with laying foundation for me that I don't need more, but I might need to check out Smart as well, because one of my current building gripes that I still hope they address is the tedium of splitter->belt->machine->belt->merger.

I was gonna write about how Smart's auto-manifolding was functional, but ugly and annoying. For me anyways, because I care a lot about designing everything bespoke and very compact, and hate boring repetitive rows. But I haven't been playing satisfactory recently and decided to check if the mod had updates to fix that stuff.

And, um, holy poo poo.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

I need to fire up my save and try getting to the drones, I kind of petered off the game when that update hit and the new update looks pretty cool too.

Need to have a resource train that just circles the map dropping off resources where needed or something, I recall getting bored with something along those lines.

NoEyedSquareGuy
Mar 16, 2009

Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."


Klyith posted:

(Also you never used smart?! You build everything in massive boxes. Cripes, your index finder must be beefy as gently caress from that workout!)

Either that or I'm giving myself carpal tunnel. There are techniques you can use to speed up things like laying large foundation rectangles or adding windows once a build is complete but it's always going to be busywork with hours of mindless clicking for something I could do in seconds with Smart Mod. I generally like playing games in their vanilla state to experience the "developer vision" of the game but after 1000 hours put in over two saves I'm more than ready to do away with that part.

queeb
Jun 10, 2004

m





Klyith posted:

100% a thing that I've always been stupefied that they tried to do any other way.

TBQH as someone who uses Smart, there are tradeoffs and I love the look of Zoop mode. Smart is far more powerful, but if you've never used it, the downside is that there's a minimum amount of fiddling around with rotations and key-holding. I'll use both, and in some ways I think they're even complimentary.

Like, sometimes placing 5 things with Smart isn't really faster than clicking 5 times, it's just less annoying. So zoop will place 2-20 things faster than smart, but smart has a big advantage at 10x10 and bigger. Personally a whole lot of stuff I do is in that lower range. Zoop will be perfect for that, assuming they get the contextual logic about how to build based on how the player drags the mouse right.


(Also you never used smart?! You build everything in massive boxes. Cripes, your index finder must be beefy as gently caress from that workout!)

I was gonna write about how Smart's auto-manifolding was functional, but ugly and annoying. For me anyways, because I care a lot about designing everything bespoke and very compact, and hate boring repetitive rows. But I haven't been playing satisfactory recently and decided to check if the mod had updates to fix that stuff.

And, um, holy poo poo.

what the gently caress, thats amazing.

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002




hahaha gently caress this guy is way better at making the game than the devs. I was waiting for a good reason to revisit and nothing in that dev blog really grabbed me (soft clearance is nice to finally have, not building conveyers/foundations in the huge empty space above buildings with smoke stacks was bullshit), but that just loving blew me away.

Just hire him already and let him loose, and lock everything he does behind an "expert mode" or whatever if you don't want the complexity scaring off new players.

Oxyclean
Sep 23, 2007




Has their aversion to blueprints and similar really been a matter of overwhelming players?

What the mod guy has pulled off feels...almost too powerful in ways. I totally get why the devs don't want the game to just figure out how to place almost everything for you.

That said, given what they said about zooping, hopefully they will come around on some more building conveniences or means to ease repetition.

necrotic
Aug 1, 2005
I owe my brother big time for this!

Chadzok posted:

hahaha gently caress this guy is way better at making the game than the devs. I was waiting for a good reason to revisit and nothing in that dev blog really grabbed me (soft clearance is nice to finally have, not building conveyers/foundations in the huge empty space above buildings with smoke stacks was bullshit), but that just loving blew me away.

Just hire him already and let him loose, and lock everything he does behind an "expert mode" or whatever if you don't want the complexity scaring off new players.

He’s really good at making one specific feature for the game. Working in a team on a whole shitload of stuff is not exactly the same. And mods are basically locking it behind an expert mode so he’s in a great spot.

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



Yeah obviously, my point is quality of life things like making things align, snapping to grids, building large scale, etc are all major flaws of this game so far that shouldn't need a mod to fix. There's a sweet spot that they haven't hit yet in between blueprinting entire bases factorio style and tediously trying to line up every single item by hand.

Gadzuko
Feb 14, 2005


Chadzok posted:

Yeah obviously, my point is quality of life things like making things align, snapping to grids, building large scale, etc are all major flaws of this game so far that shouldn't need a mod to fix. There's a sweet spot that they haven't hit yet in between blueprinting entire bases factorio style and tediously trying to line up every single item by hand.

I agree, Smart isn't making the game less complex, it's just improving the user experience and allowing you to spend more time being creative and less time mindlessly clicking and pixel hunting.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Oxyclean posted:

Has their aversion to blueprints and similar really been a matter of overwhelming players?

No, I'm pretty sure the blueprint thing has never been about complexity for players, or difficulty of making a good UI, or the amount of dev work. I think they are very averse to adding a tool to the game that would, if used optimally, result in a much less creative and diverse set of outcomes.

Making zoop mode or Smart or blueprints is pretty straightforward (though they do eventually want to do a console port, which limits how complex the controls / UI can be). Making a tool that doesn't tilt the community towards stamped-out "this is the optimal design to max the blueprint limit" patterns is hard because you don't know where that line is until you cross it. And that's a genie bottle situation, they can't say "oops that tool turned out to be too good" and take it away.


Their vision of the game has at least as much minecraft as it does factorio, if not more. That's why they just did a 20 minute video that's mostly about a ton of new cosmetic blocks. And if you look at the stuff they themselves make to show off various updates, I think that's what they want to see players making.

Triarii
Jun 14, 2003



People say you shouldn't ship all your resources to one mega-factory, and that it's not ideal to put all your products onto a central bus.



Not sure why! Seems to work great!

Triarii
Jun 14, 2003



Welp, my janky factory churned out enough to complete the final space elevator delivery, so I guess I'm done for now. Some thoughts that kept coming up as I worked through the final stretch:

- The indicator lights showing building status are pretty insufficient. For one, it seems off that "output buffer is full" and "ingredients are missing" both earn a yellow light. To me, the former usually means I'm topped up on the output and everything is fine, while the latter means I've got a problem with my resource flow that needs to be fixed. And when a building does have a problem, I want the indicator to do something like shoot a beam of light way up above it that can be spotted anywhere in the factory instead of getting lost among the buildings.

- Producer buildings really don't need such gigantic input buffers for resources. It causes all sorts of production delays, and makes it hard to tell at a glance whether your resource ratios are out of whack or things are fine and just haven't settled into place yet. It can get really egregious with things that take a long time to produce, like the Adaptive Control Units for Assembly Director Systems - they're built at a rate of one per minute and an assembler's input can hold fifty of them, so a decently sized line of assemblers fed by a manifold can take literal hours to get fully producing. I coded this sort of thing once and I think the logic I used for the buffer size was "enough to produce the selected recipe for 30 seconds, or to produce the recipe twice, whichever is greater".

- The hover pack is fantastic and makes working on a factory way smoother and more enjoyable, to the point that I'm kind of mad that they make you wait so late in the game to get it. I'd love for it to be introduced way earlier, but it's easy to trivialize exploration with it, so they'd probably have to come up with a way to keep it limited to just base building at first.

- I tried out that Smart mod, and being able to copy-paste whole production lines is potentially a bit much, but the way it lets you place foundations and walls is wonderful and should just be how it works in the game. Even that zooping feature that they previewed still seems unnecessarily laborious for such a basic, boring step of the building process.

GotLag
Jul 17, 2005

食べちゃダメだよ


Triarii posted:

- Producer buildings really don't need such gigantic input buffers for resources. It causes all sorts of production delays, and makes it hard to tell at a glance whether your resource ratios are out of whack or things are fine and just haven't settled into place yet. It can get really egregious with things that take a long time to produce, like the Adaptive Control Units for Assembly Director Systems - they're built at a rate of one per minute and an assembler's input can hold fifty of them, so a decently sized line of assemblers fed by a manifold can take literal hours to get fully producing. I coded this sort of thing once and I think the logic I used for the buffer size was "enough to produce the selected recipe for 30 seconds, or to produce the recipe twice, whichever is greater".

I agree with this, but I will note that the most common newbie question/complaint in the Factorio Discord and IRC channel is "why have my inserters stopped even though the machine's input isn't full??????"

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Triarii posted:

- The indicator lights showing building status are pretty insufficient. For one, it seems off that "output buffer is full" and "ingredients are missing" both earn a yellow light. To me, the former usually means I'm topped up on the output and everything is fine, while the latter means I've got a problem with my resource flow that needs to be fixed. And when a building does have a problem, I want the indicator to do something like shoot a beam of light way up above it that can be spotted anywhere in the factory instead of getting lost among the buildings.

A different indicator color is for empty vs full isn't a bad idea (I'd have output buffer full = dark green, that would be both noticeable and have no color blindness issues).

But the other option is to feed overflow into resource sinks at the final / important steps of your chain. That way you never have full output buffers, your machines are always producing, power usage is flat, and you get tickets. Any yellow means lack of input.


Having the indicator visible from long range is problematic because the indicators don't actually update at long range. There's a distance from your player where the machines stop animating for performance reasons, which also stops their indicators from changing color.

Triarii posted:

- Producer buildings really don't need such gigantic input buffers for resources. It causes all sorts of production delays, and makes it hard to tell at a glance whether your resource ratios are out of whack or things are fine and just haven't settled into place yet. It can get really egregious with things that take a long time to produce, like the Adaptive Control Units for Assembly Director Systems - they're built at a rate of one per minute and an assembler's input can hold fifty of them, so a decently sized line of assemblers fed by a manifold can take literal hours to get fully producing.

For production lines that involve low items/minute and are slow to fill a buffer, the solution is to think smarter about your conveyor belts. Use a balancer or splitter tree instead of a standard manifold. This is a really good idea to do with nuclear production since you have much less radiation to deal with.


One thing that I saw on a dev Q&A stream a while ago was their main designer talking about the programmable splitter, and how they weren't happy with how it isn't particularly useful. One thing they might do with it is have the ability to set a ratio on the outputs. I really hope that makes it in at some point. It would make balanced splitter arrays much more compact.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




You know, while I'm not generally in favor of completely gutting the ecology of any given area I work in, and just kinda prefer working around the flora...



gently caress this area and its eighteen billion poison fog spewers.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




Okay, sorry for the double post but



what the gently caress, game, why are they back

Back Hack
Jan 17, 2010


Patch day maybe.

Synastren
Nov 8, 2005

Bad at Starcraft 2.
Better at psychology.
Psychology Megathread


Back Hack posted:

Patch day maybe.

His build numbers are the same in each shot.

But it was going to happen when the next patch hit anyway!

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




I didn't even close the game, I just zoned out back to my main base to grab some supplies, came back, and the white trees were back, and I couldn't chainsaw them back down until I saved and reloaded. It was weird as hell.

GotLag
Jul 17, 2005

食べちゃダメだよ


Free biomass! Score!

ClassH
Mar 17, 2008


Has anyone used the powersuit modules mod? There is a logistic module that refills your inventory with a set amount of an item, sorta like you can do on factorio with logistic bots. I started messing with it last night but didn't have enough time to get very deep into it, however it looks very similar to power armor from factorio. You can craft different modules to put into it to get different effects like shield/speed/flying ect.

https://ficsit.app/mod/BezrE8aswqXLRX

Thinking of adding this on the update 5 playthrough.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


ACES CURE PLANES posted:

Okay, sorry for the double post but



what the gently caress, game, why are they back

There are limits to how many trees & bushes you can cut down in the world. I'm not quite sure how the game keeps track of removed plants, it's something smarter and more complicated than just "list of object_IDs that are gone". But it's capped (for performance and/or savegame size reasons) and you hit that cap long before you cut down every tree in the world.

The game definitely prioritizes foliage near or intersecting your buildings to retain as removed. I'm not sure if that is just a simple priority, or if it ignores the cap entirely for that. Finding out would be effort, and I try to avoid mass deforestation in my game.


tldr: pave the swamp

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Klyith posted:

tldr: pave the swamp

:hmmyes:

drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



I’m about to unlock tier 7 and 8 for the first time.

Computers, supercomputers, and heavy modular frames can bite me.

ACES CURE PLANES
Oct 21, 2010




GotLag posted:

Free biomass! Score!

I actually ended up with 12 full industrial storage containers of solid biomass and a full one of gas filters by the end of my rampage. I will probably be set for life on that front.

Bussamove
Feb 25, 2006



drunken officeparty posted:

I’m about to unlock tier 7 and 8 for the first time.

Computers, supercomputers, and heavy modular frames can bite me.

I feel like I'm the only person that actually enjoys mathing out and then finding a suitable place to build heavy modular frame factories.

Yes I do spend several hours on it and yes most of that is making it look good instead of a jumble of platforms and no I won't be taking any questions at this time.

Tamba
Apr 5, 2010



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kh3lVrBdjFE

queeb
Jun 10, 2004

m







nice

LifeSunDeath
Jan 4, 2007

I hated your old avatar so much I paid for this one from a gay furry visual novel. gay rights and smoke weed every day


NICE
:nice:
NICE

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



Oh hell yes, this is going to go a long way to having a proper substitute for trains in the early game.

If you don't want to watch the video, the changes they're making:

  • Vehicles will now follow a spline between nodes rather than make a straight line, so they'll more reliably follow routes
  • If a vehicle gets stuck, it will try to back up and go around the obstacle, and if it still can't do that it'll eventually just noclip to the next node
  • Vehicles will calculate how much fuel they need to complete their route, and both only take as much as they need and not set off until they have loaded enough to get there
  • You can now save paths and apply them to multiple vehicles (of the same type)
  • You can build a truck station on an existing route and the route will automatically add a pause there to load/unload
  • Truck stations have two inputs and outputs for double the throughput

This'll go a long way to making truck logistics properly usable, I'm excited to play with it.

Tamba
Apr 5, 2010




Max transfer rate isn't high enough :colbert:

Ben Nerevarine
Apr 14, 2006

That Old Ash Magic


Tenebrais posted:

Oh hell yes, this is going to go a long way to having a proper substitute for trains in the early game.

If you don't want to watch the video, the changes they're making:

  • Vehicles will now follow a spline between nodes rather than make a straight line, so they'll more reliably follow routes
  • If a vehicle gets stuck, it will try to back up and go around the obstacle, and if it still can't do that it'll eventually just noclip to the next node
  • Vehicles will calculate how much fuel they need to complete their route, and both only take as much as they need and not set off until they have loaded enough to get there
  • You can now save paths and apply them to multiple vehicles (of the same type)
  • You can build a truck station on an existing route and the route will automatically add a pause there to load/unload
  • Truck stations have two inputs and outputs for double the throughput

This'll go a long way to making truck logistics properly usable, I'm excited to play with it.

Changes look slick

Now they just need to implement proper roads and truck transportation could really be a thing

Mayveena
Dec 27, 2006

People keep vandalizing my ID photo; I've lodged a complaint with HR


No ETA on the update right? Like it matters to me because I have to wait for stable and passive mod. But who knows? They've promised that a peaceful mode will exist before the game gets to 1.0.

Tenebrais
Sep 2, 2011



None yet. Last time they had a pretty long lead-up time hyping up the upcoming fixes and features; I'd expect it's still a couple of months out.

Then there's the further time in Experimental before going on to the main EA branch, which should be enough time for mods to update.

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



Hopefully this makes trucks a viable option, one of the times I calmly placed the game down to go and breathe deeply was after spending hours setting up a truck coal delivery route only to discover that the trucks were periodically launching themselves into the stratosphere for no reason that I could control for. I mean, they didn't specifically mention fixing the trucks innate desire for low earth orbit, but I'm hoping they'll warp back onto the correct path now after each adventure.

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


I’m still reeling from the idea of using more than one truck per station! How could one wind up needing so much throughput that they’re using more than one vehicle to deliver a thing?! Not to mention, the effort of correctly setting up a filtration and overflow-grinding conveyor system would seem greater than just…building another truck stop nearby.

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Speedball
Apr 15, 2008



I found a viable truck route in my most recent run of this game for transporting crystals long distance, but that took advantage of the natural road paths that exist along the north-northwestern areas. Not sure if Update 5 will change that area as well, it's not quite in the forest biome, it's in the pink forest area.

These changes are welcome.

Now if only you could wear a gas mask when driving through toxic areas...heh.

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