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Vasudus
May 30, 2003


With those truck changes I might actually run trucks.

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Tamba
Apr 5, 2010



LonsomeSon posted:

Iím still reeling from the idea of using more than one truck per station! How could one wind up needing so much throughput that theyíre using more than one vehicle to deliver a thing?! Not to mention, the effort of correctly setting up a filtration and overflow-grinding conveyor system would seem greater than justÖbuilding another truck stop nearby.

The maximum throughput of a truck station is limited by the belts going in and out. But you only actually get that throughput if the distance is short enough that the destination stop doesn't completely empty out before the next load arrives.
For example:

You want to use a truck station with a two MK 4 belts in and out (960 items per minute), which will be possible with the next update.
A truck has 48 inventory slots. You transport coal, which stacks to 100, so a full truck is 4800.
If your truck route takes 6 minutes, you won't actually get the full 960 items per minute, because the truck is too slow.
You will get a maximum throughput of 4800/6 = 800 per minute.
If you add a second truck to the same route, you will get the full 960 items again (the trucks could even transport 1600, so if you upgrade to MK5 belts later, it would still work)

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Mayveena posted:

No ETA on the update right? Like it matters to me because I have to wait for stable and passive mod. But who knows? They've promised that a peaceful mode will exist before the game gets to 1.0.

In the first video about update 5 they said "this fall", but also ofc that is just their target and not a commitment.


Also IIRC the big change to modding that happened after update 4 (when mods totally stopped working for like 2 weeks while the mod team re-wrote their loader code) was to target a more official system the developers added for modding. Like, mods are still unsupported during EA, but the foundation for it is now in place.

End result is that I expect mods to be updated for U5 fairly promptly. Like if you wait for the actual U5 release, rather than jumping on experimental branch, mods will definitely be ready to go.

NoEyedSquareGuy
Mar 16, 2009

Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."


Going to take advantage of vehicle pathing becoming more reliable by doing all my long-distance transport with armies of factory carts.

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

NoEyedSquareGuy posted:

Going to take advantage of vehicle pathing becoming more reliable by doing all my long-distance transport with armies of factory carts.

I want to see the Letís Game it Out guy making his computer catch fire by unleashing thousands of factory carts.

Maybe they can battle with the now sentient tractors he had trapped.

drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



I just unlocked nuclear generators, only to be shocked (shocked I say) that it doesn't just take a conveyor belt of uranium ore as input.

Alkydere
Jun 7, 2010
Capitol: A building or complex of buildings in which any legislature meets.
Capital: A city designated as a legislative seat by the government or some other authority, often the city in which the government is located; otherwise the most important city within a country or a subdivision of it.




Non-poo poo trucks in Satisfactory has finally made me actually eager for Update 5.

Triarii
Jun 14, 2003



drunken officeparty posted:

I just unlocked nuclear generators, only to be shocked (shocked I say) that it doesn't just take a conveyor belt of uranium ore as input.

But that's how it works in real life, doesn't it? You get a big crate of uranium ore and shovel it into an open furnace like the boiler on a steam train

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Triarii posted:

But that's how it works in real life, doesn't it? You get a big crate of uranium ore and shovel it into an open furnace like the boiler on a steam train

sure, why not?

NoEyedSquareGuy
Mar 16, 2009

Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."


drunken officeparty posted:

I just unlocked nuclear generators, only to be shocked (shocked I say) that it doesn't just take a conveyor belt of uranium ore as input.

Of course not.

You need water as well.

Speedball
Apr 15, 2008



Yeah, back when fluids were introduced I was skeptical of how much they'd add to coal and other forms of production but it kind of made the whole process more intriguing and even allowed for extra nice recipes such as the ones that purify ingots out of raw ore and water, which increases throughput by like 10x, absolutely worth it.

best possible use for Petroleum Coke is the alternate recipe that lets you mix that with iron instead of coal to make a TON of steel. (I will admit that after many playthroughs I downloaded a cheat mod to get all the alt recipes unlocked at the start, if only so I can get to the good stuff faster).

Triarii
Jun 14, 2003



Those pure ingot recipes are kind of a tradeoff in that you'll get more ingots out a given resource node (1.86x as much for iron, 2.5x for copper, 1.5x for caterium) but at the expense of much more power spent per ingot and the hassle of having to get water and ore together. Depending on where you are in the world, it might be easier to just find more resource nodes than to bother with that.

The coke steel recipe gets you 1.33x as much steel for your iron, but the solid steel recipe gets you 1.5x as much, so I'd only use the coke one in a situation where there's a lot of convenient oil but no coal (especially because you're probably also spending that oil to generate power and make rubber/plastic).

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


The three-Normal oil patch along the western coast has two Pure Iron nodes about 600m south, up a ridge and into the forest a bit, giving you enough Iron Ore to do a sizable build with both Iron and Steel parts as well as petroleum products.

Thereís a Pure Caterium node a bit above the beach on a crag coming out of the giant cliffside (not on top, spent about 20 minutes this morning looking for it up there), if you can score Caterium circuit boards.

If not thereís a Pure Copper a bit south of the southern Iron in question, so either way that sizable build can eventually spit out Super Computers, too.

drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



The flow rates on pipes make absolutely no sense and Iíve given up trying to put logic to it. I can jam 2 600/m wells into one pipe and it will just wildly go up and down from 50-450 on a whim.

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


drunken officeparty posted:

The flow rates on pipes make absolutely no sense and Iíve given up trying to put logic to it. I can jam 2 600/m wells into one pipe and it will just wildly go up and down from 50-450 on a whim.

If you've got a section of pipe where, when fluids enter, they never need to come back under any circumstances, slap a valve there (once you have oil products for Improved Fluid Handling) so that section stops contributing to the general slosh effect. At one point I believe that unpowered mk1 Pumps allowed flow freely, and also had a valve effect, so you could use them for early valving needs but I have no idea if that's still true.

Think of pipe segments as long, narrow tanks. When you're elevating fluids over a pipe segment, it needs to 'fill up' in order to get to full flow rate into the next pipe segment.

Triarii
Jun 14, 2003



Yeah, I've had flow problems that were fixed by throwing valves in seemingly random places. In one spot I had a simple, non-branching length of pipe between two pumps that refused to flow smoothly, until the moment I slapped a valve in the middle of it, and it suddenly jumped to a perfect 600m3/m.

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


We really need mk1 valves, and for the current ones to become mk2 valves.

drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



Almost all of it is well / water pump -> tank. Then it gets dispersed from the tank which I mostly donít have issues with because the connections are short. But Iíve tried everything except making a pipeline entirely out of pumps. I give up and am resigned to slow oil.

drunken officeparty fucked around with this message at 00:51 on Sep 12, 2021

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES




Exciting Lemon

The water-requiring alternates are best for priority tap offs for ore near buildings that produce water as a biproduct. So they'll be idle most of the time but when you have wastewater it will get consumed for more efficient ingots. The amount of time and resources it takes to setup refineries to process all your ore like that is insane due to all the water requirements, as well as the fact its already nearly impossible to reach full utilization of the ore on the existing map.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


LonsomeSon posted:

The three-Normal oil patch along the western coast

What, the islands? That's not 3 normals, it's 2 normal and 2 pure.

I agree that it's a great place to do computers, but IMO not great for steel because those pure iron nodes aren't really that close and there are far better locations for steel production.



Coke steel isn't a great recipe IMO, and that's coming from someone who normally is very happy with the alts that trade resource efficiency for higher output rate. Often I like the high-output recipes because it means you can build fewer machines. However, not all machines are created equal. I'd much rather build 17 foundries and 22 smelters to produce 1k ingots with solid steel, versus 10 foundries and 12 refineries to do the same with coke steel.

I've used coke steel in builds where it was convenient, but I wouldn't ever use it as a main steel supply.


LonsomeSon posted:

We really need mk1 valves, and for the current ones to become mk2 valves.
You get valves as soon as you get oil. You don't need valves for coal power plants, all you're doing with coal is piping water to the generators.

drunken officeparty posted:

Almost all of it is well / water pump -> tank. Then it gets dispersed from the tank which I mostly donít have issues with because the connections are short. But Iíve tried everything except making a pipeline entirely out of pumps. I give up and am resigned to slow oil.
Get rid of the buffer tank. Buffers are completely useless in like 90% of the places people use them, and they're really good at causing problems with flow rate. Buffers don't even out flow rate when you stick them in the middle of a pipeline. A lot of the time they make it more uneven.


IMO that's the fix that CS should do with the fluid system, move the basic buffer out of that the coal power tier. Put it in logistics mk3 or something, so that people build their first coal power plants without them and learn that they're not required.

Speedball
Apr 15, 2008



Storage containers are good for physical buffers but fluid buffers have the problem of needing to be at least partially filled before they start outputting again at a significant enough rate.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Speedball posted:

Storage containers are good for physical buffers but fluid buffers have the problem of needing to be at least partially filled before they start outputting again at a significant enough rate.

Frequently true in practice. But it's not a simple rule like that, so technically not true. A buffer can start outputting at full rate right away if the conditions are right -- like if the buffer is the highest point of the pipe network.


The only unique mechanic for buffers is how they interact with head lift. A 100% full buffer transmits the full head lift to the other side. A partly-full buffer only transmits head lift equal to the fluid level inside the buffer. So if you have a mk2 pump sending water into a buffer with 50m head lift, the head lift on the other side will be 4m when the buffer is 50% full, then 7.6m when the buffer is 95% full. Only when the buffer is 100% full does the head lift suddenly shoot up to the full 55m. If your buffer is below other pipes that can cause massive flow loss because the output will constantly "stutter" on and off.


The other thing to know about buffers is that they often promote slosh and backflow, which are what makes your pipe network unable to reach full 300 or 600* m3/m flow. This isn't due to any special rules about the buffer, it's just an artifact of the fluid sim. All pipes have bidirectional flow, and flow in both directions counts towards the max flow limit. Buffers are a big blob of fluid, that fluid is higher than the 2 pipes directly connected to the buffer, so it often sends a bit of fluid "backwards" into the supply pipe.
*600 m3/m may in fact not be achievable even in ideal circumstances

OTOH there are plenty of other ways to cause difficulties with backflow in pipes other than buffers. The most common is underfloor pipes where every machine is connected by a vertical pipe. Aiming for 270-80 m3/m rather than 300 is the easiest way to deal with that.


tl;dr:
don't use buffers just 'cause, they probably aren't helping. every machine has an internal buffer, your pipe network generally just needs to be a delivery system.
keep some margin below max flow rate in your pipe networks unless you want to dive into the details of the fluid sim. and even then you will probably need a bit of troubleshooting to figure out why this valve works and that valve doesn't.

Ice Fist
Jun 20, 2012

^^ Please send feedback to beefstache911@hotmail.com, this is not a joke that 'stache is the real deal. Serious assessments only. ^^


Klyith posted:

tl;dr:
don't use buffers just 'cause, they probably aren't helping. every machine has an internal buffer, your pipe network generally just needs to be a delivery system.
keep some margin below max flow rate in your pipe networks unless you want to dive into the details of the fluid sim. and even then you will probably need a bit of troubleshooting to figure out why this valve works and that valve doesn't.

*Reads this excellent post*
*Looks at massive aluminum refinery that I've spent two days setting up expecting full 600m3 pipes to work properly*
*Screams internally*

I set up a aluminum refinery based on the 5 alumina solution refineries = 1 600m3 pipe. I have 4 floors of this.

Oh, and I have 25 water pumps all completely filling 600m3 pipes.

*sigh*

Just going to deal with it for the moment. Redoing it is :effort: rn.

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


Ice Fist posted:

*Reads this excellent post*
*Looks at massive aluminum refinery that I've spent two days setting up expecting full 600m3 pipes to work properly*
*Screams internally*

I set up a aluminum refinery based on the 5 alumina solution refineries = 1 600m3 pipe. I have 4 floors of this.

Oh, and I have 25 water pumps all completely filling 600m3 pipes.

*sigh*

Just going to deal with it for the moment. Redoing it is :effort: rn.

Connect the machine on the end of each floor together into their own array, get 5 sets of 4 not 4 sets of 5? Not great to have to hack that into your existing pipe system, but you get your full throughput still without having to redo everything.

e: also if you donít have buffer tanks in your water system, itís likely you can get most of the capacity out of your water feeds without having to redo them. Try adding valves and poo poo to guard against backflow?

NoEyedSquareGuy
Mar 16, 2009

Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."


Ice Fist posted:

*Reads this excellent post*
*Looks at massive aluminum refinery that I've spent two days setting up expecting full 600m3 pipes to work properly*
*Screams internally*

I set up a aluminum refinery based on the 5 alumina solution refineries = 1 600m3 pipe. I have 4 floors of this.

Oh, and I have 25 water pumps all completely filling 600m3 pipes.

*sigh*

Just going to deal with it for the moment. Redoing it is :effort: rn.

The precision errors with Mk.2 pipes generally aren't enough to warrant designing around them. You might not hit the perfect 100% efficiency you should theoretically be getting based on a build planner but it will be close enough that you shouldn't notice unless you're really OCD about it. If you run into serious issues with waste water backing up your aluminum production lines you can always get rid of it with wet concrete.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


Ice Fist posted:

*sigh*

Just going to deal with it for the moment. Redoing it is :effort: rn.

If it turns out to have bad problems with flow, post pics and I can probably help figure out where to put a couple valves or minor changes to piping to fix it. Or upload your save and I'll take a look.

Most of the time the changes needed to fix a pipe problem aren't difficult at all, it's knowing what parts of a network are potential causes.


Otherwise NoEyed is right, the mk2 pipe issue is not worth designing around, especially at that scale of build. The worst case is like one refinery out of each of your blocks of 5 is running at 80-90%. If that's enough to make the whole system fall out of balance and jam up, then you were going to have problems eventually from gradual accumulation of small errors.

SkunkDuster
Jul 15, 2005






I'm using the Minimal Factory mod which has a Water Extractor x10 module with an output of 1200 water. Since pipeline Mk2 pipes only support 600 water, how can I get the full flow of 1200 from the Water Extractor? A junction cross right at the output of the extractor? I don't know if junction crosses have flow limits.

edit: I just built a Water Extractor x10 and the configuration screen for it shows a max flow rate of 600, so the tooltip must be wrong. Also learned that I can't hook a junction cross direction to the output.

SkunkDuster fucked around with this message at 01:45 on Sep 14, 2021

LonsomeSon
Nov 22, 2009

A fishperson in an intimidating hat!


SkunkDuster posted:

I'm using the Minimal Factory mod which has a Water Extractor x10 module with an output of 1200 water. Since pipeline Mk2 pipes only support 600 water, how can I get the full flow of 1200 from the Water Extractor? A junction cross right at the output of the extractor? I don't know if junction crosses have flow limits.

To my knowledge you canít, since you need to run a pipe to the cross junction. Check and see if that mod added capacity to pipes, or better pipes

LonsomeSon fucked around with this message at 18:55 on Sep 14, 2021

SkunkDuster
Jul 15, 2005






Is there a limit to how much steam can pass through a pipe? Also, if I'm creating a steam manifold with 15 inputs and 20 outputs, would that create balance problems?

NoEyedSquareGuy
Mar 16, 2009

Just because Liquor's dead, doesn't mean you can just roll this bitch all over town with "The Freedoms."


SkunkDuster posted:

Is there a limit to how much steam can pass through a pipe?

Same as liquids. 300 for mk.1, 600 for mk.2

quote:

Also, if I'm creating a steam manifold with 15 inputs and 20 outputs, would that create balance problems?

Guessing you mean nitrogen since steam isn't in the game. Manifolds will work the same way as with liquids, just look at how much you're getting from the source and divide it by how much each machine requires. Whether or not you run into balance problems is purely a matter of making sure you have enough belts/pipes to handle the output. The only extra considerations you have to make with nitrogen are that you don't need pumps to cover vertical distance unlike fluids and you need to check the wells around the fracking pump for purity to see how much each one is putting out. Impure gives 30, normal 60, pure 120.

Tamba
Apr 5, 2010



Power plants in Satisfactory directly turn fuel and water into energy. There is no steam step like in Factorio.

drunken officeparty
Aug 23, 2006



Iím just some turbomotors away from unlocking the last research bundle. I guess Iím kind of finished because the only other thing to do would be wait dozens of hours to send the last space elevator?

SkunkDuster
Jul 15, 2005






NoEyedSquareGuy posted:

Same as liquids. 300 for mk.1, 600 for mk.2

Guessing you mean nitrogen since steam isn't in the game.

I've been using the refined power mod since graduating from biomass burners, so I thought steam was a vanilla thing. My mistake.

There is a mod called something like "treat all fluids like gas", but I haven't used that one. From the title, I was under the impression that gasses acted different in pipelines than fluids.

Triarii
Jun 14, 2003



SkunkDuster posted:

I've been using the refined power mod since graduating from biomass burners, so I thought steam was a vanilla thing. My mistake.

There is a mod called something like "treat all fluids like gas", but I haven't used that one. From the title, I was under the impression that gasses acted different in pipelines than fluids.

I think the only difference is that you don't need pumps to send gasses uphill.

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



I like the look of that mod, the jump from biomass to coal always seemed a bit drastic to me. And a massive solar farm out in the desert would seem appropriate.

Klyith
Aug 3, 2007

GBS Pledge Week


drunken officeparty posted:

Iím just some turbomotors away from unlocking the last research bundle. I guess Iím kind of finished because the only other thing to do would be wait dozens of hours to send the last space elevator?

Vastly expand your factories to produce the endgame materials on a scale such that, when you finally hit the big 'on' switch, it finishes production in a single session? :c00l:




But seriously that's what the final space elevator shipment is there for. If you like the game, that is the real satisfactory starts here challenge where you have all the tools and now need to build 10 times more stuff to complete it in reasonable time. But if you've had enough of the game, you can move on because it's super optional & there's no additional game behind it.


SkunkDuster posted:

There is a mod called something like "treat all fluids like gas", but I haven't used that one. From the title, I was under the impression that gasses acted different in pipelines than fluids.

Gasses are different:
ē they don't need pumps
ē they flow evenly in all directions without caring about gravity / height

That second thing means that they're easier to work with for flow rate -- fluid that wants to go "down" is a frequent cause of backflow. But it also means you can't use head limits to control fluid sources / priority, which is the best way to deal with waste fluids.

lagidnam
Nov 8, 2010


Update to Unreal Engine 4.26 is coming next Tuesday on the experimental branch. It will come with some optimizations for conveyor belts and also DX12 and Vulkan support.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJyfSle4o_U

priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

Oh gently caress yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_PEIFKPPoE

Will watch it after work, cannot wait.

M_Gargantua
Oct 16, 2006

STOMPIN' ON INTO THE POWER LINES




Exciting Lemon

Lets Game it Out really is the best possible advertisement for anything.

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priznat
Jul 7, 2009

Let's get drunk and kiss each other all night.

M_Gargantua posted:

Lets Game it Out really is the best possible advertisement for anything.

Yeah my wife who has zero interest in games whatsoever will laugh at these videos just because of the voice, editing and timing that Josh has. Itís really entertaining. And then on a game you like and play a lot it is a bonus because you then realize the amount of effort he is putting in!

His Valheim one almost had me getting it but I was just too swamped to invest time in another builder game.

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