Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Vichan
Oct 1, 2014

I'LL PUNISH YOU ACCORDING TO YOUR CRIME

Barudak posted:

If the US had unique boxart it is always the worst version

Heavy Rain being an infamous example.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


jokes posted:

Yeah but Vaan didn’t have a shirt on and didn’t have a job until the game started, making him more of a Florida Butz.

Zidane, Tidus, Locke, arguably Cloud kinda, Zell, all solid Butz iterations.

At this point we have to figure out what we mean by 'the Butz mold', then, because I don't think I entirely agree on some of these.

I see Butz as essentially the perfect 'Nobody Special Hero' in Final Fantasy. The guy who didn't have to matter, who's not a big Destined Hero, who's important entirely because of what he does. But I think an additional important thing about Butz is that the game is always aware of that about him, and never pushes him into a higher status beyond that, it just lets him be Some Guy Doing What's Right. As well as him being a bit of a dipshit, which the game is also aware of.

So to me I can't really say Tidus is in the Butz mold, because every single part of his story is tied to who he is, where he's from, and the fact his dad is Sin. His deeds never really get to exist decoupled from his preexisting story relevance. At the same time I do think Zidane is right in there, because (like Butz, in fact) while he does have a familial connection of some sort to the greater plot, it's not actually relevant to most of the game's plot, where he's fully allowed to be a Heroic Dingus and nothing more.

Cloud is a REALLY tough one. I think my call is that he fits barely into the Butz mold in the original FFVII, but none of his other appearances, mostly because those other appearances forgot to let him be a dipshit.

But I also have to point out, not all Butzes are actually good. The series' most recent Butz is Prompto, and Prompto is awful.

Super No Vacancy
Jul 26, 2012

yahallo


Prompto is cool

ZenMasterBullshit
Nov 2, 2011

Ziggy Hero!
Ziggy! Save! Everyone!



Cleretic posted:

The last time we had a Butz we all swapped him out for Balthier, though.


Vaan wasn't a butz at all. Kid couldn't even tell a joke or get drunk with his best friend, a man 4 times his age.

Ventana
Mar 28, 2010

*Yosh intensifies*


NikkolasKing posted:

Get Lightning off my FFXIII-2 cover and logo. She's in 1% of the game.

And I thought it was bad when Seifer ended up being a bit player in FVIII despite being so prominent on the FFVIII US cover.

Fwiw I think the bait and switch with Lightning in 13-2 is kinda fine, since I'd rather be bait and switched than just spoiled. Going through FFX with my partner and she keeps joking about how the drama would work better if the re-releases didn't prominently include FFX-2 Yuna on the cover/logo which make it clear that FFX's plot will probably end up fine. Not that FFX is that surprising of a game/story, but it certainly doesn't help.


VVVVV Yeah, which I'm kinda fine with too, I'll see how it works when we get there

Ventana fucked around with this message at 17:23 on Oct 17, 2020

Barudak
May 7, 2007



FFX and FFX-2 is one of the few examples where that might make you falsely confident though

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes




If I remember correctly there is a quote that fully explains Butz as a character:

"Bartz, Bartz, Bartz... so enthusiastic and yet so stupid”

He’s just a stupid, cool, and chill dude. Just a positive dude who wanted to hang out with his bud/dog/chocobo.

E: I read more about him and his character is supposed to represent the wind which makes a lot of sense. Protagonists should always be a breezy boi who’s here for a good time and, probably, not a long time.

jokes fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Oct 17, 2020

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

I think we can all agree Final Fantasy needs more pianist heroes. That’s what makes Butz so compelling and relatable.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes




nrook posted:

I think we can all agree Final Fantasy needs more pianist heroes. That’s what makes Butz so compelling and relatable.

His skills are superhuman, even.

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


Help Im Alive posted:

I didn't know until just now that FF boxarts being white backgrounds with the cool amano logos was only a Europe/Japan thing



Just noticed the tilted horizon means that Tidus is like at a 45 degree angle to the ground?

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


https://twitter.com/acosmos/status/1316500670351060999

CPColin
Sep 9, 2003

Big ol' smile.

Grimey Drawer

CharlieFoxtrot posted:

Just noticed the tilted horizon means that Tidus is like at a 45 degree angle to the ground?

Maybe the tide is going out

HD DAD
Jan 13, 2010

Generic white guy.



Toilet Rascal

CPColin posted:

Maybe the tide teed is going out

Violet_Sky
Dec 5, 2011



Fun Shoe

I like FFX's story but Jecht is kinda a dick. How the gently caress did his wife stand him?

DrakePegasus
Jan 30, 2009

It was Plundersaurus Rex's dream to be the greatest pirate dragon ever.


Violet_Sky posted:

I like FFX's story but Jecht is kinda a dick. How the gently caress did his wife stand him?

Kinda assuming a bit about Jecht’s marital status there.

Violet_Sky
Dec 5, 2011



Fun Shoe

DrakePegasus posted:

Kinda assuming a bit about Jecht’s marital status there.

I assume his wife divorced him when he stopped making money

Augus
Mar 9, 2015

BORN TO DIE
WORLD IS A FUCK
Kill Em All 2010
I am trash mon
410,757,864,530 DEAD COPS


Violet_Sky posted:

I like FFX's story but Jecht is kinda a dick. How the gently caress did his wife stand him?

jecht was an absolute sweetheart to his wife and a total dick to basically everyone else.

NikkolasKing
Apr 3, 2010





All mothers in FFX have no names and this will always bug me.

Jecht and Tidus' Mom.
Braska and Yuna's Mom.
Jyscal and Seymour's Mom.


Violet_Sky posted:

I like FFX's story but Jecht is kinda a dick. How the gently caress did his wife stand him?

Love is a helluva drug and as Tidus' Farplane flashback shows, his mom was pretty into Jecht, to the extent she might have loved him more than her son.

I don't think we're ever told when she dies but the implication is she died shortly after Jecht vanished because she wwas too heartbroken over it and as for lil' Tidus...meh, that stranger with the red coat can take care of him, I guess.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


Cleretic posted:

At this point we have to figure out what we mean by 'the Butz mold', then, because I don't think I entirely agree on some of these.

I see Butz as essentially the perfect 'Nobody Special Hero' in Final Fantasy. The guy who didn't have to matter, who's not a big Destined Hero, who's important entirely because of what he does. But I think an additional important thing about Butz is that the game is always aware of that about him, and never pushes him into a higher status beyond that, it just lets him be Some Guy Doing What's Right. As well as him being a bit of a dipshit, which the game is also aware of.

I mean, his dad was a Chosen Hero from Another World so if he's a nobody it's only because the rest of the party are literally royalty.

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes




Jecht was probably only sweet to Tidus’s mom because she fawned over him all the time. The dude’s a celebrity first and an everything-else second.

CharlieFoxtrot
Mar 26, 2007


https://twitter.com/Dreamboum/statu...604956724252673

CharlieFoxtrot fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Oct 18, 2020

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Bruceski posted:

I mean, his dad was a Chosen Hero from Another World so if he's a nobody it's only because the rest of the party are literally royalty.

Yeah, and in a lot of other stories, that would matter. That would be his main Thing, he'd have a whole 'I'm a Jedi, like my father before me' moment that characterizes him. But in V the fact that Dorgann is important barely matters for Bartz's story.

Also, I'd actually call Faris a 'Nobody Special' hero in a different way. Basically every time the fact she's a princess comes up, she rejects it and evetything it entails, and... well, the story lets her. She wants to be a nobody defined by her own accomplishments, and the game does that. As do the crossover games, they characterize her as 'Pirate Captain', not 'Princess'.

Bregor
May 31, 2013

People are idiots, Leslie.


NikkolasKing posted:

Get Lightning off my FFXIII-2 cover and logo. She's in 1% of the game.

And I thought it was bad when Seifer ended up being a bit player in FVIII despite being so prominent on the FFVIII US cover.

on XIII-2

Seifer makes more sense, he fades more as the game progresses and we get further away from Squall’s death at the end of disc 1

Barudak
May 7, 2007



FFX is a game about 3 different people whose lives are upended by the hole of their fathers passing so while its not pleasant none of the mothers are named, it fits with the motif of the game.

I also originally had a point about Lulu's summoner not getting a name either since she's a woman but lol nope I just forgot she has one.

Onmi
Jul 12, 2013

If someone says it one more time I'm having Florina show up as a corpse. I'm not even kidding, I was pissed off with people doing that shit back in 2010, and I'm not dealing with it now in 2016.


Cleretic posted:

Yeah, and in a lot of other stories, that would matter. That would be his main Thing, he'd have a whole 'I'm a Jedi, like my father before me' moment that characterizes him. But in V the fact that Dorgann is important barely matters for Bartz's story.

Also, I'd actually call Faris a 'Nobody Special' hero in a different way. Basically every time the fact she's a princess comes up, she rejects it and evetything it entails, and... well, the story lets her. She wants to be a nobody defined by her own accomplishments, and the game does that. As do the crossover games, they characterize her as 'Pirate Captain', not 'Princess'.

Except for the fact that both of them are literally the chosen ones, chosen by the crystals. And I can and will directly argue that being a Chosen One is what makes Bartz a hero, as until he was chosen, he was content to literally be a wanderer with no goal in life beyond going from place to place. Even his first response to Lenna and Galuf going to the wind shrine is "Neat, take care."

Cleretic
Feb 3, 2010

Like a bull in a china shop.

Well, if the bull owned the china shop.


Onmi posted:

Except for the fact that both of them are literally the chosen ones, chosen by the crystals. And I can and will directly argue that being a Chosen One is what makes Bartz a hero, as until he was chosen, he was content to literally be a wanderer with no goal in life beyond going from place to place. Even his first response to Lenna and Galuf going to the wind shrine is "Neat, take care."

Yeah, Chosen Ones are always a curveball when I try to define essentially 'heroes by deed' and 'heroes by rite'. I've always kinda hated the concept. But Bartz seems like his response is basically 'sure, why not', and he goes along with it not outright because he was chosen to, but because he personally thinks it's a good idea.

But I will note, Dorgann is unrelated to Bartz being a Chosen One; Lenna and Faris were chosen, after all, despite the Tycoon lineage being entirely unrelated to the Dawn Warriors. I'm pretty sure FFV's Warriors of Light are literally just chosen by proximity to an exploding crystal, which... isn't exactly a very choosy criteria.

Mustached Demon
Nov 12, 2016



Grimey Drawer

Cleretic posted:

Yeah, and in a lot of other stories, that would matter. That would be his main Thing, he'd have a whole 'I'm a Jedi, like my father before me' moment that characterizes him. But in V the fact that Dorgann is important barely matters for Bartz's story.

Also, I'd actually call Faris a 'Nobody Special' hero in a different way. Basically every time the fact she's a princess comes up, she rejects it and evetything it entails, and... well, the story lets her. She wants to be a nobody defined by her own accomplishments, and the game does that. As do the crossover games, they characterize her as 'Pirate Captain', not 'Princess'.

Dorgann was kind of an oddball in the warriors of dawn too. The other three were leaders of their respective areas. Dorgann, like butz, was just along for the ride. I could be reading into it too much since I don't recall any real backstory of dorgann.

nrook
Jun 25, 2009

Just let yourself become a worthless person!

Really? I thought that Xezat became a king because he was one of the Warriors of Dawn, not the other way around. This doesn't really make any sense, but I felt like it fit with the video game logic that held FFV together.

Mustached Demon
Nov 12, 2016



Grimey Drawer

nrook posted:

Really? I thought that Xezat became a king because he was one of the Warriors of Dawn, not the other way around. This doesn't really make any sense, but I felt like it fit with the video game logic that held FFV together.

The wiki says his last name was surgate and also says he became king after. So uh dunno maybe he was a bum too and took the name afterwards.

Cattail Prophet
Apr 12, 2014



The biggest effect Bartz being Dorgann's son has is "helps convince a wolfman to open a door that he was almost certainly going to open anyway once Galuf talked him down from full aggro."

...Actually, I'll go ahead and make the argument that without Bartz's lineage, the party might not have generated enough goodwill with the werewolf community to get Requiem and the free potions. So Bartz is important because he makes bard even better than it already is.



Wait. A significant portion of the songs are obtained as a result of Bartz's actions or backstory. He's the only one stupid enough to poke the sheep that leads to Romeo's Ballad, and you only get Alluring Air after Bartz reminisces about his childhood. And he's the one playing all the pianos! Is Bartz actually the secret to bard's power???

Bregor
May 31, 2013

People are idiots, Leslie.


Cattail Prophet posted:

The biggest effect Bartz being Dorgann's son has is "helps convince a wolfman to open a door that he was almost certainly going to open anyway once Galuf talked him down from full aggro."

...Actually, I'll go ahead and make the argument that without Bartz's lineage, the party might not have generated enough goodwill with the werewolf community to get Requiem and the free potions. So Bartz is important because he makes bard even better than it already is.



Wait. A significant portion of the songs are obtained as a result of Bartz's actions or backstory. He's the only one stupid enough to poke the sheep that leads to Romeo's Ballad, and you only get Alluring Air after Bartz reminisces about his childhood. And he's the one playing all the pianos! Is Bartz actually the secret to bard's power???

His hometown is Lix... licks... slang for songs...

Mustached Demon
Nov 12, 2016



Grimey Drawer

Cattail Prophet posted:

The biggest effect Bartz being Dorgann's son has is "helps convince a wolfman to open a door that he was almost certainly going to open anyway once Galuf talked him down from full aggro."

...Actually, I'll go ahead and make the argument that without Bartz's lineage, the party might not have generated enough goodwill with the werewolf community to get Requiem and the free potions. So Bartz is important because he makes bard even better than it already is.



Wait. A significant portion of the songs are obtained as a result of Bartz's actions or backstory. He's the only one stupid enough to poke the sheep that leads to Romeo's Ballad, and you only get Alluring Air after Bartz reminisces about his childhood. And he's the one playing all the pianos! Is Bartz actually the secret to bard's power???

He has the best dancer sprite too.

He's Justin Timberlake.

Mega64
May 23, 2008





Don’t forget that after Bartz leaves Lix a bard moves into his house, and he has a music box and becomes a piano savant with no formal training and “Bartz” and “Bard” share the first three letters.

Bardtz being a Bard is canon.

Booourns
Jan 20, 2004
Please send a report when you see me complain about other posters and threads outside of QCS

~thanks!


My first FFT playthrough I did a bunch of grinding and was averaging level 50 when I got to Finath River and had to just reset until there was only one red chocobo

MechaX
Nov 19, 2011

"Let's be positive! Let's start a fire!"


Booourns posted:

My first FFT playthrough I did a bunch of grinding and was averaging level 50 when I got to Finath River and had to just reset until there was only one red chocobo

Between this battle and running into the Monk Fiesta on Grog Hill, I've always just saved before moving even once across random battle maps as a habit.

zenguitarman
Apr 6, 2009

Come on, lemme see ya shake your tail feather




A lot of lessons learned the hard way in that game

Evil Fluffy
Jul 13, 2009

Scholars are some of the most pompous and pedantic people I've ever had the joy of meeting.

MechaX posted:

Between this battle and running into the Monk Fiesta on Grog Hill, I've always just saved before moving even once across random battle maps as a habit.

I reached that place at probably 15 levels above the story and my first attempt had 3 red chocobos.

The last time I played through PSX FFT I picked up a chocobo and bull demon in ch1 and walked until I had a red chocobo and a sacred (well, 2 of them because I poached 1 for an eventual holy lance). It wasn't even close to fair.

Scalding Coffee
Jun 26, 2006

You're already dead


I always had trouble with the Chocobo rush in mission 2 or 3. Step right up to the chain-spam healing encounter, WARK!

zenguitarman posted:

A lot of lessons learned the hard way in that game

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.



I'm so glad FF14 embraced that. The lead-in quests to one of the FFT raids included fighting 2 red chocobos and was quite deadly (apparently even worse when first released, and not made easier when you got aggroed by the ones everyone else spawned doing the quest) and the new relic weapon zone has more of them including a boss encounter.
"It's Dalamund all over again! Run!"

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

The White Dragon
Nov 14, 2007

すご▞い!
君は働か░い
フ▙▓ズなんだね!


Mega64 posted:

Don’t forget that after Bartz leaves Lix a bard moves into his house, and he has a music box and becomes a piano savant with no formal training and “Bartz” and “Bard” share the first three letters.

Bardtz being a Bard is canon.

well fartz and bartz are just one letter apart so why isnt his job class flatulent npc

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply