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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

We've also not yet seen anything new about the Dragon from prophecy that IIRC (iirc first season?) Roswaal wants to kill?; its unclear to me if this dragon is the same as the one Sekmet(?) made move in order to take a nap.


MonsterEnvy posted:

I must say it's probably a good thing that Daphne and Typhon were killed.

From what Echidna said Typhon went around judging people. Assuming it was the same as with Subaru she just went around exploding people if they felt guilt.
Daphne created horrible monsters, and it's for sure a good thing she was killed because if she remained active she probably would have created more monsters.

They're not really "people", they're like Fey gods as its been suggested before. They do bad things with good intent and good things with bad intent and its a flip of the coin as to which witch is which.

If when they made the beasts was like a more primordial time, like the age of the Titans in Greek Mythology and humans were starving, these might have been boons that made the difference then.

Typhon similarly makes a similar amount of sense, if in such a time humans were more rowdy and not yet been given "fire" so to speak, maybe it made sense then to have someone going around and punishing people for evil deeds, like how Zeus would travel around visiting people (because he was the god of hospitality as well) and punished anyone who broke that covenant and mistreated guests.

I'm assuming this wasn't something they did like 100 years ago, but more like 10,000 years ago.

And in general they really haven't done anything worse than most pantheons did.

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Kung Food posted:

If you think about it, every victim of the bunnies dies just as brutally as Subaru did. The villagers, Emilia, Otto, and probably thousands of others. Subjecting huge groups of people to slow dismemberment and even being burrowed through seems a bit worse than Zeus being really horny for mortals.

Uh there are many pantheons/myths/legends and so on... Some have examples of pretty bad things. Such as Ishtar almost destroying the world because she was mad at Gilgamesh; then you have all the monsters created in Greek mythology by the Titans and their children that probably have a body count just as high if not higher. Think of the millions of people drowned to death by the god of the old testament and meteor'd two cities whose populace were just having a good time which probably killed tens of thousands instantly.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

MonsterEnvy posted:

Yeah I am guessing if Daphne was still active she would have created more and more monsters.

I mean, in many myths the creator deities seem content with what they made initially. There isn't any reason to believe Daphne would keep making more.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

MagicBoots posted:

O, well if she's stopped at three horrifying monsters then it's fine. Four would have been unconscionable.

I'm not sure what you're responding to. But it seems like the author is taking their cues from myth, and in myth generally there's like a limited number of things that get made usually in the Very Beginning. I.e when the greek gods made the clouds, animals and then finally last was man and so on; look at it from a Jungian perspective.

We're sorta supposed to look at the Witches as being somewhere between Fey and Gods, but instead of creating humans it's more like they happened to come upon mankind and granted them two sided boons.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Raxivace posted:

I think we should wage war against The Sea, personally. For too long it has been one of the natural predators of mankind, drowning us at nearly every opportunity. Sending strange, tentacled beasts after us. Giving safe passage to hurricanes onto our shores. Stranding deserted sailors on isolated islands where they starve to death.

This has gone on long enough. I won't stand for this anymore- its time we take back our planet from our watery master The Sea and embrace true freedom.

Hilariously there was an ancient King of babylon (I want to say Hammurubi?) actually did declare war on the sea because a tsunami or something destroyed a major bridge.


MonsterEnvy posted:

Though Daphne's Mabeasts have not done anything good for the world. Honestly they probably should have swapped her name with Echidna's as Echidna was the mother of monsters in greek myth.

Also given that Daphne is gluttony I doubt she would have ever stopped making monsters had she not died.

Again, I point out most mythology which the author is drawing from there there is usually some sort of implied limit. Some mythologies are quite explicit about it, i.e there's only so much "clay" lying around to mould into creatures and so on and whatever left over was used for humans and so on and so forth. Depending on how long the history of the world was Daphne may have been around for thousands of years with only three major beasts to show for it (but maybe a larger number of lesser beasts). I'm inclined to let existing mythology and jungian analysis of the text trump simple induction in this case.

Otherwise by that logic whats to stop god from making 8 days of the week because he's made 7 so far?


Clarste posted:

I think the idea we're arguing is that the witches are beyond good and evil, they're a weird sort of divinity that you have to respect simply because there's no alternative.

Like, the sea. The sea kills tons of people. It also has a lot of tasty fish in it. But you wouldn't call the sea evil, nor would you call it good. It just is what it is. And if you happen to be a religious person in a seafaring culture you would probably pray to the sea gods before every voyage, because it can't hurt to get on their good side, can it?

In other words, the witches are not people in the normal sense. They are forces of nature.

This. They operate on Blue and Orange morality alien to our own. Some, like Echidna, are basically like the Nyarlehoteps who can meaningfully interact with us, but others like Daphne are presumably more alien.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

8one6 posted:

It's not difficult to see why their labeled 'evil' when their Blue and Orange morality leads the to the suffering of hundreds if not thousands of people. Just because something's a god doesn't mean it's not an evil god.

Again though as Clarste mentions you can apply this thinking to many things we can trivially see as pointless to label as evil. The sea kills a lot of people, via drowning, via storms and hurricanes, but it also provides boons. It is an amoral force of nature. The Witches are presumably along these lines, letting in our contextual symbols regarding real life historical mythologies and religions inform our understanding of them.

Then you get into nebulous concepts like, "the State" which maintains a monopoly on legitimate violence to enforce its authority which also results in a lot of people dying in order to exist and maintain society. It is beyond good and evil. Amoral destructive things exist both in nature and as a result of human society; the Witches, like Gods in our own contemporary or ancient mythology are not any different.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

Considering she appears to have only stopped because she died, personally I'd go with yes, she probably would have.

She's not some primordial deity; she became active around 400 years ago, and it is during this period that she created the mabeasts.

For that matter, yes the intent seems to be to interpret the witches as beings with a twisted sense of morality or lacking in common sense, but ultimately they're still just people, and little different from the Sin Archbishops we've seen - varyingly deranged individuals wielding abnormal power.

First of all, I don't recall when in the anime where it says they became active 400 years ago, somewhere before in the thread I think I read that they died 400 years ago. And we should be careful to leave novel spoilers out of this discussion because I'm not sure where that information is coming from.

Even if we take it as true though for the sake of the argument, I don't think that contradicts the point being made. What does it matter if they only became active 400 years ago? When the implication is that they were reacting to very real threats to humanity that existed? Poverty, War, Famine, Ignorance and so on. Again I don't think it serves any use to apply real world logic to a text that is ultimately referencing myth and the trappings thereof. It's like complaining when the characters split up in a horror movie; they don't know they are in a horror movie anymore than the characters know they are a part of a story either with its own mythological context.

After all if we were watching a TV series set during the Trojan war saying that "Well Zeus was only acting 500 years ago" (from point of view of the story) doesn't make Zeus any less of a mythological and primordial figure.

It's a story, and a story that borrows heavily from myth. Don't look at it like you would real life, look at it with the same tools we would any other story.

The way I see it, the Witches represent the flip side of these "sins", you can't have ambition without pride and without ambition people remain content and unwilling and unable to advance to improve themselves. Without greed, they have no desires, and those no economics or trade, or prosperity which depends on people wanting more than they currently have, especially for knowledge which requires a desire to continue poking at things to learn more. Without anger there is no desire to defend yourself, only hapless, defenciveless people. And so on, the Witches come in and represent these desires that are essential for civilization.

Raenir Salazar fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Sep 6, 2020

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

I kinda think like "Satella" right now isn't probably "herself" but is more like an insane shadow of her former self.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

My take away was that Typhon was shoved out of the space by Minerva who intervene on Echidna's behalf to heal Subaru.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Mindblast posted:

Everything suggests the entire world is filled with things he can't handle. He's also stands out to anyone who can pick up on aura's. Nothing suggests he'd be safe.

And again: "don't tell or I kill the witnesses" is pretty drat terrible.

VVVV

Here's the thing, the Witch's scent at it's most minimal seems to not be a big deal by itself. It's only when he died once or twice it spikes and drives people who smell something funny initially to murderous levels of suspicion.

If he peaces out and its either been a while since he last died or hasn't died yet, then he's fine.

Likewise most of the time he can't handle anything is a direct result of being with Emilia, encountering Knights, monsters and so on. If he peaces out and just works for a random shop/bakery he's likely fine along with 99% of other regular people in the setting who don't have any apparent magic powers or jrpg martial skills.

It's only as a result of trying to either protect Emilia or advance his perception of her interests that he ends up going against others.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Cool episode, one thing I have questions about : why did Garfield backed off of Subaru at the end? Did Subaru say something? I'm not sure I understood that last exchange.

I only have questions among questions about Subaru meeting Beako at the end.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

The Subaru gets consumed by Satella scene is interesting to me because shouldn't Satella know that Subaru can RBD? She seems surprised at Subaru's actions, was it confirmed this ep if it was Emilia who was taken over? My assumption then is its Emilia who was overcome by like, the Witch's Will or something but wasn't for whatever reason actually privvy to what Satella did to Subaru?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Annointed posted:

Love me Love me Say that you Love me Subaru-kun

This stood out to me actually, that she used the same honorific that Emilia uses and then Subaru freaking out later when he wakes up next to Emilia again.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

I'm getting a little more confused now. Did Garf smell anything off of Subaru? The impression I had initially was he smelled something but pretended to be friendly. Then someone in thread mentioned that he probably CAN'T smell anything and it was someone else (Ryuzu?) who told Garf. But maybe he smelled Echidna off of Subaru? I don't understand anymore!

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Re: Garfield I don't think he's THAT unknowable. He acts differently each loop and that threw Subaru off, but only because Subaru had incomplete information as to what was different each time. Assuming, like the audience did, that it had to do with dying and gaining miasma. When in actuality it was because of Ryuzu. Once the pieces fell into place I think Subaru has a handle on it now.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

A big flaming stink posted:

wait there are multiple ryuzu? not like, mindless clone ryuzus but multiple ryuzus with their own personality?

I think this episode implied that they probably don't start with personalities but with time can grow their own. The oldest Ryuzu's are basically people, while the youngest are basically like worker ants. Autonomous and "alive" by the strictest possible definition and able to perform simple tasks, but not much else.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Ethiser posted:

Also thereís kind of a weird implication that as time continues to pass they could end up with infinite Ryuzuís since they seem to just continue to automatically be produced regardless of inputs and donít die of natural causes.

(Joke Seculation) How do you think they keep the rabbit in check?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Mindblast posted:

This episode also has potential implications some other things. Such as

Ram's hidden motive/raison d'etre. She was surprised but NOT unhappy regarding how things ended.
What motivated the maids to kill Subbs way back then. Could've easily been instigated by the employer


I dunno about the first bit, but the second is clearly because how things played out originally re: Subaru smelling like the witch.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

What I find potentially interesting for the future: Subaru gained I think a lot of power over Ros, Roswaal gave a lot of information to Subaru that Subaru gets to keep while his other parallel selves won't know they gave Subaru that knowledge. It's not like he can be blackmailed but Subaru I imagine now realizes more than ever that Roswaal isn't to be trusted and best worked around.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

So is Emilia in this timeline merely crazy or is she Satella at the end?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

The existence of possible parallel time lines and parallel "you's" is an existentialist crisis of faith waiting to happen and frankly I'm willing to forgive Roswaal a little if the knowledge of it broke them lovecraft style as its knowledge no man is meant to know, so I feel like psychopath isn't entirely warranted yet, he does seem to have genuine cares and attachments to people.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

dipwood posted:

At this point I'm flabbergasted that Subaru isn't just taking the trials as soon as he wakes up. Echidna is outside time so he only has to do them once. I bet a Garfiel/Beatrice combo can take care of the mansion.

He suggested it in one loop and Emilia immediately acted like Subaru had betrayed her; it isn't something that will cross Subaru's mind to do (because he's been very busy investigating all the stuff he doesn't know which is pretty reasonable) in the present circumstances. Now that he knows what he now knows I think we'll see him make the attempt if he can get Emilia to agree to it.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

I honestly had a thought that Roswaal is Subaru from the future.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

M_Gargantua posted:

If I'm following correctly there is one more episode next week and then the back 13 in late winter

Thank Christ! I REALLY want to see what happens next with Satella herself arriving to have a piece of Subaru

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

He knew it wasn't smart but he really, really, from the bottom of his heart wanted to just trust her. Pummeled after everything, he just wanted to let this lady - his only confidant re RbD and who has already saved him twice - help him without questioning her motives. An answer of sorts to the ongoing concern everyone around Subaru has with how he tries to shoulder everything.

Contrast with their very first meeting where he disengaged the very first chance he got.

Can't blame him really.

I really hope though he ends up negotiating a "lite" version just so we can have Echidna tagging along with Subaru for the ride. Even better if she feels what he feels for Higurashi no koro ni shenanigans where the shinto girl ate really spicy food to mess with her guardian spirit. A version where she gets to tag along and chime in seems like a win-win scenario to me where he's not obligated to do anything she tells him.

What's interesting is that the contract reminds me of the deal (Webcomic Order of the Stick spoilers) Varsuuvius got with the three fiends where three epic spellcasters joined up to their spirit. Feels very similar on a host of levels.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Nitrousoxide posted:

So Echidna seems to also imply that Subaru isn't really traveling through time per se but jumping cross parallel universes and leaving the hosed up ones behind when he dies.

If this is so it's extremely hosed up and puts a whole new twist on him trying to avoid getting killed.

Not quite. Echidna says its a possibility, as its perhaps emotionally the worst possible outcome for Subaru personally to have to deal with that level of guilt and its what the Trial threw at him, but we don't know if its actually the case, only Satella would know.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Disconnecticus posted:

I hope we eventually get a read on why Elsa is so mind-bogglingly overpowered. So far Julius is the only one who has been a match for her.

Honestly that's just the nature of the setting. It's like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Forgotten Realms I repeat myself and tripped over Elminster, Blackstaff, Drizzt, Gromph, Artemis etc in a row.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

M_Gargantua posted:

Its also like what if instead of being in a generic fantasy world Subaru was put into the Malazan and tripped over Quick Ben, Karsa, Rake, Cottilian , Icarium etc in a row

I don't know those people though. I know OF Marazan, my character in the last campaign decided to retire there.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Hence why a lesser version that's more fair can still be worth it, as long as she doesn't have control over him so the final decision is with him. Subaru is the one with leverage in that she wants to be able to leave the Tea Party and be a sort of Force Ghost able to experience new things again.

Regardless of her alienness, she's still valuable to have literally in his back pocket as an ally. He knows the risks now and has sufficient information to make decisions based off of what she says.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

I don't quite think she's a psychopath, at least not in the internet colloquial meaning of "person who does bad things and is evil".

I'm on the camp where Subaru being Subaru with his "Harem Protagonist EX" skill legitimately did in fact reach Echidna and she genuinely wants to help. It is just that her legitimately wanting to help is up there with Hastur wanting to genuinely be helpful and it probably takes more than two meetings for her to more fully come around to Subaru's level.

Although part of me thinks of this as something of a deconstruction of harem tropes just as Re;Zero has generally been a bit of a deconstruction of isekai and nerd male empowerment wish fullfillment; namely, not everyone out there who wants to bone you is going to be a good person merely because they like you and those relationships won't be healthy especially if you jump into them head first.

On some level I wonder if this is supposed to be analogous to abusive relationships... And actually come to think of it I wonder if perhaps that's part of Re;Zero's overall themes w.r.t relationships, hrm.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

Nagatsuki's said he doesn't like harems.

I guess that does reinforce my point but also feel it doesn't add much to the conversation. I think I prefer assuming Death of the Author generally since it provides a more interesting dynamic to how we engage with fiction.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Conspiratiorist posted:

And I'd say a fairly successful one at that with how much people ITT and elsewhere have been taken in by her.

We can change her! You don't know her like we do!

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

What is the egg thing a reference to.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

MonsterEnvy posted:

From what Subaru said, about her attitude being superficial, and her just dropping the act at the end. I am guessing all of her attitude gaffs included were a act to get him to trust her more. She already has been able to read through his memories. She could easily just act in a way to make herself more trustworthy to him so he would accept this deal.

If true that would explain why she acts a lot like Emilia? But I'm not really convinced its totally an act.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Grouchio posted:

It exists and Tappei is forever ashamed of making it.

There is also the Greed IF that I can now talk about if you guys want (If Subaru accepted Echidna's offer).

Maybe after the next cours. e: whoops double posted by accident.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Grouchio posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZzC8rl9l9w#t=1s

Rem: give up and leave everything to me
Subaru: very sus! emergency meeting!

Haha I understood that reference!

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Nitrousoxide posted:

So what the gently caress is Puck doing that's so goddamn important right now that he can't be helping out Emelia.

Probably being kept sealed by the barrier?

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Nitrousoxide posted:

Since apparently all of Subaru's acquaintances are witch cultists, does that make Otto a cultist of some sort. I was really getting a Minerva cultist feel toward the end there.?

Holy poo poo.

Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

Annointed posted:

Oh nooo Petra is a cultist?! But for whom?

Sekmet obviously. She follows Hbomberguy on twitter.

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Raenir Salazar
Nov 5, 2010

USNews: Biden approves $735M weapons sale to Israel


College Slice

HppyCmpr posted:

It's just a low effort reference of a really crappy meme. It's not worth getting, you're not missing out.
He deserved a probate for it.

That was quite a way to finish before the break, January can't come any sooner.
I didn't really understand the significane of Roswall removing his make up mid conversation with Subaru.

Yeah I didn't get it either, I thought he was wiping away his injuries or something but if it was his make up I wonder the significance.

I feel like this interaction reinforces my Wild Mass Guessing crackpot theory that Roswaal is Future Subaru or Ultra Past Subaru.

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