Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


https://twitter.com/Rezero_official/status/1204327995344707584
Probably worth posting here, too.
S2 in April, S1 re-airs starting in January with an additional epilogue after the final episode.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


And to be clear, arc 4 can definitely fill 24 episodes.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


where the red fern gropes posted:

is there a list of all the changes between original and directors because i dont really want to watch the whole series again
MAL has a pretty good list. By and large the changes are either brought over from the BDs and/or minor updates and edits, but episode 7 had the whole Julius and Subaru fight redrawn and Episode 13 got some new facelifts beyond the extra epilogue as well.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


And that was only basically the epilogue of Arc 3.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


This was back in episode 22.

As far as I recall, this is about the only explicit context for Subaru and Pride thus far.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Sankara posted:

Six? I thought it was seven deadly sins.
At a guess here, the Cult doesn't presume to formally have an Archbishop of Envy because of Satella.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Amusingly enough, Betelgeuse did the PV for this episode.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX6zjUqLlqc

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Clarste posted:

I liked the implication that he's doing exactly the same thing to her that he got angry at Rozwaal for.
From the set-up alone, the direction for Subaru's development this arc seems to be about learning to really consider others' feelings and maybe try and be proactive in learning who they are. Don't forget when he met Beatrice on coming home and upset her by treating her like someone obligated to give him whatever information he asks for.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Argue posted:

I didn't exactly follow what Roswaal did. He "purposely led these events to happen"? What are "these events"? So, more than withholding information, he what, told the witch's cult to attack? Was he also somehow responsible for the white whale attacking, in order to secure the alliance?
I'd say we do not yet know the extent of his involvement in everything (which could range from "somehow had advance warning of plans and made sure everyone was in his desired places" to "purposefully and personally conspired to set events in motion"), but at least from the context of that talk, I think he's saying that he knew that the Witch's Cult was going for Emilia and made sure that Subaru and Emilia would be in a position to stop the Cult (with assistance - Rem was with Subaru to make sure he could use the mineral rights as an alliance sweetener), that Roswaal himself would out of reach of intervention (so no one could directly petition his aid), and it seems also so that the villagers would need to be evacuated to Sanctuary (which was part of why he left Ram at the mansion) to in turn get held hostage to force Subaru and Emilia to come after them and get stuck doing the Trial.

If he's savvy enough to guess what would need to be done without his help, he's clever enough to know the most likely options they'd take.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


I enjoyed Ram and Frederica being sparring partners in banter, and the episode also confirmed my suspicions from last time that Ram definitely has... SOME kind of vestigial recollection (her face when Subaru mentioned Rem during the argument with Roswaal was not the face of someone who wasn't affected at all). Interesting implications on the absolute limits of Gluttony's power.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


MonsterEnvy posted:

Well it is a name that sounds a lot like hers. But Ram herself said that looking at Rem's body all she could feel was a blank, despite being able to clearly feel they were related.
She said herself seemed to recall being tossed before Subaru even mentioned Rem this loop, but there's absolutely no context where he'd be allowed to do that except the specific case with her sister, and with Rem being written out of her memories, it's got to be hella confusing to try and rectify that thought.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


So far, Subaru's checkpoints have been situations where he, personally, is neither in immediate danger of dying nor seriously incapacitated, and has at least hours if not days to resolve the major obstacle in his path. If Return by Death were to update anywhere starting now, following the pattern, Beatrice would likely have to fully heal him and ensure he's in a position to not be troubled by Elsa. I'm not sure she quite has that capacity, so my feeling is that this is still a failed timeline, but he's not quite done learning everything he can for the loop.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


The aftermath of arc 3 has shown that even if Subaru "wins" he is not guaranteed a "golden ending" so the stakes are raised to "can Subaru pull this off without sacrificing too much and being unable to try again for a better outcome?" The nature of Return by Death being mostly out of his control retains a tension in the whole arrangement.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Most people don't seem to notice Subaru's witch-scent, so it's pretty fair that he wasn't anticipating that to disrupt his loops again.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Clarste posted:

Did Beetlejuice specifically say the archbishop of Pride was a vacant position? That's why he thought Subaru might be the one.

Hogama posted:

This was back in episode 22.

As far as I recall, this is about the only explicit context for Subaru and Pride thus far.
On a further review, Betey-boy actually asked if Subaru was Pride on their very first meeting, too.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Isekai Quartet was being just as cheeky before this season started.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Basic set-up never changes in individual arcs, complications just keep getting piled on while Subaru tries to figure things out. His actions and demeanor affect how people react to him, but nothing on a "failed" timeline has any real lasting effects except for populating Subaru's memories (and potentially those existing outside of time like Echidna). A good supercut of just the "true timeline" might help keep things straight for the plot, though obviously we can't do that for Arc 4 until next year.

It's amusing to remember, for instance, that Emilia's first meeting with Subaru (from her perspective) involves finding him together with the thief who stole her insignia and then nearly as suddenly as they met he's calling Puck by name to protect her from a surprise Elsa attack.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Well, judging from the PV, next episode is certainly going to be interesting.

Is it Wednesday yet?

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Vincent Van Goatse posted:

When you said explosion girl I was hoping against hope it'd be Megumin.
Emilia is Megumin, there's a joke about it in one of the first season PVs. (That is, Rie Takahashi voices both.)

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Dzhay posted:

I'm glad to see that not all the other witches were blameless good guys unfairly villainised by history. Grey-goo-bunny witch was probably more of a threat than whatever Satella did.
I've gotten fey vibes from Echidna this whole time and the others aren't really doing anything that makes me think they're different.
Assume the witches are simply telling the truth. Echidna has already said (without specifics) that she's done things she regrets in her greedy pursuit for all the knowledge of the world.
Daphne apparently created beasts to "save the world from starvation"; of both the White Whale and the Great Rabbit, she asks about whether they couldn't feed a lot of people. But also that it's selfish to eat without considering that you could be eaten as well. Still, she's not at all concerned about the possibility of their destruction, either. (I also note that the Black Serpent has yet to be defined.)

It seems like dealing with them is always going to be skewed by their nature, and that any gift comes with a price, so I think it's entirely possible that they largely don't act out of malice, but if you think about how the avatar of limitless appetite is going to come up with solutions to world hunger, it's probably never going to go as well as you might hope. In the same vein, asking Echidna for the knowledge to bring the current troubles to an end (particularly when she knows about Return by Death) is probably going to have further consequences to satisfy her greed, but she can still be sincere when she states a desire to help and that it feels nice to be depended on.


Speaking of witches, I'm fairly certain Envy's shown up because Subaru was talking about Return by Death so freely. There wasn't a hint of her stopping him while he was at the tea party, but that seems to be some kind of soul/mind dimension where she might not be ABLE to affect him, so... Flood of Shadows in the real world it is, then.

Since we also haven't yet met the other two witches, and there's talk of a third tea party, I assume that's when Subaru will be meeting them. Chekhov's Witches.


As for the post-credits, Roswaal having his own book was definitely set up. Given he specifically knew about Beatrice's copy and that it's apparently one of TWO copies of a "magical text that tells the true future" (bold emphasis mine) that're the closest to "Tome of Wisdom", it only makes sense that he'd have the other one if not the true Tome of Wisdom. That he calls the Gospels "defective versions" also implies that neither Roswaal or Beatrice are actually part of the Cult. So... Roswaal tells Subaru not to make mistakes next time and has a magical text that tells the future. Presumably he knows that Subaru can loop through time, if only because he knows when events DON'T match what's in the book (I bolded the true part because that says to me that it's not likely to have the details of every failed timeline). That certainly explains his faith in Subaru. I remember that Betelgeuse said that his Gospel didn't mention Subaru, so either what's written is excessively vague or it's just the limitations of being a defective copy. Beatrice pokes some holes in my theory though: she does some things in failed loops that she doesn't in the "Real" timeline, which wouldn't work if her book can't see what happens in failed timelines. Unless she's just lying about following what's written in the book, I dunno. I guess some questions then are: "Where's the Tome of Wisdom (and who owns it)", "What's written in Roswaal and Beatrice's books", "Why do any of them have these books," and "Why do the Archbishops have defective versions?"

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Minerva mains Healer and this is why she is the Witch of Wrath.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Barusu still isn't quite there yet, no, even though he set out trying to be more supportive - of Emilia's ambition, at least.
Besides not having a good interaction with Beatrice yet, he is also still struggling with the whole concept of "people like him, consider him their friend, and are willing to put their lives on the line to support him".

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


How and why Subaru's gotten Return by Death remains a mystery (along with just entirely how he got taken to another world), but I've been thinking it in light of some things Echidna's done:

1) Echidna has affected Subaru on the outside of her dreamscape tea party - death hasn't been a particular hindrance to this, so Satella being sealed isn't likely to have meant much in similar regards (even before we had this Sanctuary appearance)
2) Echidna has taken Subaru's memory of their encounter once, clearly stating so, and if we hadn't seen it (and he hadn't gotten it back) it would have remained unknown despite it meaning something - if Subaru had made some kind of arrangement with Satella in exchange for RbD and she took his memory as payment, we would not know without being shown
3) This reaches back a bit to a different character, but every time Emilia died, Puck would come out and initiate Operation Death Blizzard in accordance with his contract.

The hypothesis I'm forming is that Subaru, somehow, encountered and formed a contract with Satella that he doesn't remember, and he's been given Return by Death as part of that, but one of the (the only?) stipulation(s) is that he absolutely cannot discuss his power with anyone. It's only when he makes the attempt that she gives him the ol' friendly heart squeeze, and it was only when he resolved to keep talking even if it killed him that Emilia went down instead. Right now there's a roaming witch flooding the world with shadow, and that's directly after he's told someone "I can Return by Death" without the "kill the listener" bit kicking in (Echidna's already dead, of course).

Presumably this is meant to be one of the longest-standing mysteries, so even if I'm right, it's unlikely that the exact specifics will be cleared up until very late in the overall story.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Some rough cuts in this one, but I suppose that's a casualty of hellworld.
They'd hinted at one of the reveals this go before, but I kinda wasn't expecting them to EXPLODE.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Raenir Salazar posted:

The Subaru gets consumed by Satella scene is interesting to me because shouldn't Satella know that Subaru can RBD? She seems surprised at Subaru's actions, was it confirmed this ep if it was Emilia who was taken over? My assumption then is its Emilia who was overcome by like, the Witch's Will or something but wasn't for whatever reason actually privvy to what Satella did to Subaru?
My take is simply that she doesn't want Subaru to die because she loves him, and is shocked that he would kill himself over spending his life safe with her. She doesn't seem to have a set goal for him other than "stay alive", so Return by Death seems more of a fail-safe than "die to fix things" for her part, regardless of how Subaru uses it.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Raenir Salazar posted:

Cool episode, one thing I have questions about : why did Garfield backed off of Subaru at the end? Did Subaru say something? I'm not sure I understood that last exchange.
In addition to things already said, here's the author's notes on the episode (he has them for every episode but it's relevant to this question.)
https://twitter.com/nezumiironyanko/status/1303708835383713792
https://twitter.com/nezumiironyanko/status/1303709096487448576
https://twitter.com/nezumiironyanko/status/1303709325072846850

quote:

Garfiel, who is overwhelmingly stronger physically, being overwhelmed by Subaru is due to him seeing Subaru's eyes in a situation where he could kill him with a flick of his wrist. When Subaru was entirely ready to accept being killed by Garfiel with nothing more than "Ah, that's what you do this time around.", he has gained the will to not care at all if he dies.

That's Garfiel's impression of Subaru at this moment. Garfiel's reaction of losing his voice and such, I think it would be good if you kept that in mind for the future.

When you see Subaru Natsuki acting and speaking this way, it feels like you can see a glimpse of an air where he'd be willing to pile up life after life for the sake of the best future, and it's a really heavy-hearted feeling, isn't it?

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Regarding Garfiel, going by what has been shown, changes his assessment of Subaru based on the first post-Trial conversation - where Ryuzu shows up. On the first loop, Subaru doesn't mention his own taking of the Trial, and he hasn't died yet. He only continues to support Emilia's attempts, and by the end, Garfiel finally brings up "knowing" that Subaru has taken the Trial (after many chances to talk with Ryuzu along the way), and that Emilia is "facing the past." This is when he suggest Subaru take the Trial in Emilia's place. On the second loop, Subaru brings up taking the Trial and suggests taking it in Emilia's place; this gets Garfiel worked up and adamant that Subaru not finish it - but he doesn't get more hostile than that. On the THIRD loop, Subaru appears to try and play things out like the first loop (the montage is made up of scenes from the first loop - though there's one new cut where Ryuzu is giving a side-long glance and narrowing her eyes), but he's already died twice at this point so his miasma smell is stronger, as we know from the past. This is when Garfiel brings Subaru out to talk to Ryuzu Shima (one wearing white instead of Bilma's black), and it's after he brings up the idea of passing the Trial in Emilia's place THEN that Garfiel subdues Subaru... on Ryuzu's will, apparently. On the fourth loop, there's the whole Witch situation going on so there's no time to talk with Ryuzu, and Subaru learns about the clones. Which brings us to the current loop - they're a bit delayed in leaving the graveyard this time and have a chat (with no Ryuzu), and Garfiel shows no apprehension towards Subaru despite the fact that he's died four times now. After having his own private talk with Ryuzu, he learns that most of the clones are either gaurds or "Sanctuary's eyes" and that Garfiel has taken the Trial before. He only asks that she not tell Garfiel about him being an Apostle of Greed or that they've had that conversation, but Garfiel is still an Apostle, too. But there was still time for Ryuzu to talk with Garfiel at all - in the morning, he's mad at Subaru for smelling like the Witch, but doesn't bring up the Trial.

Given that most people don't seem to smell the Miasma (in Season 1, it's like... Beatrice, Rem, the mabeasts, and the Witch Cultists are the only ones to notably react to it - Betelgeuse wonders why the Witch's Love clings so heavily to him, and the first time Subaru wanders into the Cultists (before he meets 'Guese), they very noticeably leave him alone), it's a weird thing to accuse Subaru of without having a reason. Looking at the circumstantial evidence, it sure seems like GARFIEL can't smell the miasma, but with the timing of his mood changes, it seems that RYUZU can sense it and informs him of it out of Subaru's sight. Remember a Ryuzu encountered him before his checkpoint - on the first loop, his miasma would not have changed between that meeting and leaving after the Trial, but each subsequent loop, Subaru's miasma grows in potency, so it would be readily apparent to anyone who could both smell the miasma and compare him before and after he enters the tomb.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Spoilers from live broadcast:

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Nitrousoxide posted:

Even if she did, he still retained damage after dying to the great rabbit unless he somehow escaped from the rabbits.
He managed to get away from the rabbits somehow without completely dying on the spot, but he bled out. His actual loop death was there at the end.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


If the set-up's largely done, then as we have it - Mansion-wise: Elsa and Maylie show up with orders to kill the maids and Beatrice. Their arrival is flexible - they apparently were ordered to wait until Subaru is returning from Sanctuary, though if he leaves early enough they can be caught out as they seem to have some arrival/set-up time. It's not enough time (starting from the second day at least) to bypass them altogether, though. They may have an upper limit on how long they wait.
Elsa knows about the Door Crossing's brute force condition - this suggests some insider knowledge and may be the most damning evidence that Roswaal has hired her for the attack. Ram knew about it too (she mentioned it to Subaru when she as showing him around the mansion one loop), so it's at least known by the staff/residents of the manor, but given everyone else's states, it seems highly unlikely that it's anyone but Mathers himself who'd have told her. Elsa herself is a ridiculous opponent - she either has some serious ninja tricks to avoid death or she has some way to circumvent/regenerate from it, given Beatrice's attack. Maylie has a bunch of mabeasts with her - these may be a lesser threat overall (recalling that even Subaru was able to dispatch one), but it's potentially a troublesome amount of reinforcements and obstacles to escape. No one at the mansion seems capable of taking the duo out, and even Ram's addition isn't enough. Roswaal might be powerful enough to drive them off but he wouldn't be likely to help for various reasons. Maybe transformed Garfiel and Emilia would be enough to tip the scales? Subaru would need to find some way to get them out, which probably means finishing the trial.

Beatrice made it pretty clear that the only way to free her from her contract is to kill her or overwrite it. Narratively, I would say all signs point to Subaru overwriting the contract - he definitely doesn't want her dead, and she's been exhibiting signs that she cares about him the whole time. Plus, now that we know that her book of the future is blank and has been for a long time, nothing was written to tell her to protect Subaru, but she does it anyway. So his goals in going to the mansion are likely going to be "make a contract with Beatrice, deal with Elsa and Maylie (likely going to have to involve a fight to get everyone out alive)."

Sanctuary-wise: the barrier keeping halfs inside (specifically, since Frederica was able to leave under the conditions) will not go away until the Trial is successfully completed. It has three stages, with the first being "facing your past" - Emilia is having great difficulty with this step, and seems to only be keeping it together with Subaru's support (we don't see what happens after he leaves on the first two loops, but on the third loop Emilia is taking the trial when Garfiel hunts down Subaru, and after he wakes, the snow's happened - on the most recent loop the snow happened much sooner, and Emilia has already snapped. Loop 4 is the anomaly but given the Witch of Envy's appearance that's understandable. We know that Roswaal is the one making it snow, and he suggests that the Great Rabbit was drawn by it - he is an extremely powerful magic user, after all. I don't know for certain but the timing hints to me that Roswaal makes it snow if Emilia breaks down from a failed trail without Subaru there to lean on (alternatively, if Subaru's gone too long - both times are also after Subaru wakes up in the prison room). Dealing with Ryuzu seems to be the key to Garfiel, so Subaru needs to get her on his side early. Then he either needs the Trial to be completed as fast as possible or he needs to prevent Emilia from taking it while he deals with the Mansion (if he can?) - if he takes too long he appears to lose any element of surprise which seems like a necessary factor for murder prevention and besides, who knows when/if the Great Rabbit will show up without the snow?

The biggest problem is that it looks incredibly difficult to thread the needle on getting everything to align at two locations. Roswaal wants Subaru to focus on nothing besides Emilia, but I can't imagine that Subaru would be willing to give up on everyone else (especially with Rem at the mansion) for her sake.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


I'm thinking Roswaal doesn't specifically know the details of Return by Death, and he only really seems to confirm suspicions that Subaru is looping at all when he starts mentioning things like "over and over." It seems that he's deduced that Subaru must be repeating timelines, and believes strongly enough that it really doesn't matter if "he" dies because his book continues to show the future that "should be", so when things go wrong he needs only trust Subaru to reset and do things properly the next time so that Roswaal will live on and go a step further to his goal. But he doesn't seem to actually know that death is the trigger - he questions Subaru on still not resetting after he roughs him up, which implies to me that he thinks that Subaru is in control of the power. I find it far more likely that he'd murder Subaru himself if he knew he could force it that way.

What's very possible to me is that his book actually has things written in it and he at least attempts to follow the script to the letter, and he's been piecing together the "whys" as it goes.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Nitrousoxide posted:

How long has it been since Subaru arrived in this world at this point? I noticed a couple of episodes ago when he was reading their language and it was clearly not Japanese. That would mean should have been there at least several months to have a very basic ability to read unless it's was magically instilled in him when he was brought over.
Arc 1-2 take place over a week, then there's like a month gap between 2-3 where little stories like Memory Snow happen, then it's about a week and change for arc 3 leading in to arc 4.

(for placing arc 3 relative to arc 1)

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Wicked Them Beats posted:

Subaru has also been there longer than the actual surviving timeline. He got to pull a bit of a Bill Murray in Groundhog Day with learning to read.

If Return by Death were more predictable he could spend a couple loops having Wilhelm teach him to swordfight.
I think a potential hurdle in trying to abuse Return by Death to train physical skills is that his body resets, too (disregarding brain chemistry involved in creating and storing memories).
He might learn the basic theory behind motions (like, for instance, when he knows to turn a vegetable to peel it with a knife instead of the massacre he tried at first), but he might not be able to build up any real muscle memory beyond what he can train in a single timeline.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Sindai posted:

Well that's as good as saying Roswaal's name after last episode. Unless it's intentional misdirection.
Going back a handful of episodes, Garfiel said something familiar.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


It was inevitable, given they've been in the OP since the start, but it looks like the whole gang's going to be here next time!

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


https://twitter.com/nezumiironyanko/status/1308274355642626048

Season 2 was GOING to start on Subaru's birthday and end on Emilia's birthday but COVID-19 ruined that plan. Confirmation that it's 26 episodes, though.

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


Oh. The gang's ALL here.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Hogama
Sep 3, 2011


As anticipated, Echidna never lied to Subaru, as long as lying is defined as telling falsehoods. She deceived him by only telling enough of the truth to get him to jump to conclusions. Like when she brought the other witches in the second party, she never said they COULDN'T manifest separately, only that she could trade places with them - so he'd assumed that was a necessary aspect. The other witches point out that there's a lot she hasn't told him, and that she generally makes contracts with an "in the end" clause. You can assume that's part of all her promises - she says she should be able to come up with a way for Subaru to deal with his problems...in the end. She'll help him achieve the best possible future...in the end.
They'll "agonize over" and "struggle with" problems. Subaru can Return by Death "all he wants until he reaches his desired future" after all. Her heart has affection for him and there is a desire to help him. It's all just that her greed is such that her curiosity will come first in the arrangement, and she's under no obligation to hurry him to his goal or minimize the suffering of anyone involved.

And all that isn't quite enough to fully put Subaru off, even though he realizes that she's very superficial in her care. It's the fact that she put Beatrice, her ostensible daughter, through 400 years of solitude and uncertainty, all for the sake of satisfying her interest in whether Betty would willingly end the contract through her own will, despite explicit terms being incredibly important to spirits (as Puck keeps reminding Subaru). And on Beatrice desiring death over continued existence in that set-up, well Echidna just thinks it's drat wonderful. That's it, Betty was an experiment. Subaru would be one, too, no doubt. The Witch of Greed seems to have the demeanor of a mad scientist. This is where he ultimately rejects her - someone capable of toying with his friends and loved ones for the thrill of LEARNING isn't who he wants a partnership with.

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply