Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Conspiratiorist posted:

Taken out of context the Subaru and Emilia scene can be read that way, but ultimately the point of it is they're both wrong.

Subaru hosed up, and he tells it straight he hosed up, but makes the mistake of overlooking just how important the promise was to her, then hoping Emilia would understand his feelings even though he can't explain them, and lastly snapping and in desperation demanding she accept his behavior as is because he owes her at least that much in light of all he's done for her.

Meanwhile, Emilia was hoping Subaru would be her friend, and doesn't understand he loves her. Can't understand it. That someone would truly be willing to push themselves like this - even against her own wishes - just because of personal affection towards her is simply something she can't internalize. And ultimately decides that what's best, for Subaru, is to push aside the matter of his reasons and cut contact with him.

The importance of promises is also something that's a quirk of hers that she's nevertheless pushing onto him, even though Subaru has little way of knowing.

It's a failure of communication on both sides. The scene with Rem, then, serves as the exact opposite: both parties patiently listen as they take turns pouring out their hearts to each other.

...Nah. Emilia was right. He was just projecting stuff onto her. I mean, she doesn't hate him overall, but he was kinda being an rear end in a top hat right there at that exact moment.

Anyway, I liked the second half of the season tearing down Subaru and all that, but the whale sashimi was super boring and I'd have cut that out if I were the writer. It's not that this success doesn't matter, it's that it's not important enough to spend that much time on. Just give us the cliff notes, thanks.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I don't feel like continuing this conversation, but I'll just say that think your strangely passionate defense of Subaru and the show is more creepy than interesting and makes me appreciate it less than I did before you responded.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Conspiratiorist posted:

It's not a defense of Subaru; it's an analysis of Emilia.

I'm sorry you find uncomfortable to talk about a work beyond a surface reading of it

I said I didn't want to talk about this, but I guess I lied.

Saying "actually, both sides were in the wrong" is generally only used when one side is clearly in the wrong you don't want to admit that. In this case, Subaru had just been acting like a jerk in public before yelling at her that she didn't appreciate everything he'd gone through for her. Things that A) she didn't know about because they mostly happened in different timelines, and B) she never asked for. She reacted by... telling him that. That she owes him nothing because he's the one who one-sidedly pushed his feelings onto her. And that's right. She was 100% right. And Subaru needed someone to tell him that. He's generally sympathetic character because of everything he goes through, and it's sort of understandable that he'd react the way he did, but Subaru was absolutely 100% wrong and Emilia was 100% right. It wasn't a "miscommunication" or anything.

Emilia later feels guilty for hurting his feelings because literally anyone anyone would feel guilty about hurting a friend's feelings, but that doesn't mean she was wrong. In fact, the idea that a woman is responsible for handling a man's feelings with kid gloves is pretty fundamentally sexist.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


The idea that Emilia is somehow at fault for not tiptoeing around Subaru's feelings is exactly what I'm saying is sexist. It's the double standard we have for women. Quite frankly he didn't deserve any respect at that exact moment, and Emilia should not be faulted for not being a literal saint who would forgive everything he ever does. Yes, she was starting to like him too over their short time together, but not so much as to forgive his asshat parade followed immediately by that outburst. Heck, even if they'd literally been married at that point I'd call that pretty reasonable grounds for a divorce.

Edit: They reconcile later entirely because Subaru has made steps to become a better person.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 13:20 on Apr 7, 2019

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


After reading far too many isekai stories for my own good, I've come to realize that it's actually a little different from that. It's not just that they're so uncreative that they can't come up with a more interesting setting (not saying they aren't though), but rather that they're intentionally imitating every last little detail of every other isekai story in existence. It almost reminds me of bands playing a cover of another band's song. The point isn't to make something new, but to present something the audience already knows the words to by heart, so they can sing along.

It's certainly a strange phenomenon.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Dzhay posted:

A hearty chuckle at Subaru cutting off the exposition dump.

Not that it would have helped, as it turns out.

I'm sure he'll stop to listen after a few deaths when he starts to remember this happening and also needs more clues.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


To be fair, for all he knew Emilia was currently in mortal danger so he was probably feeling a little impatient with her toying with him.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


The first death of a loop always takes a while to happen, iirc.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I mean, I guess it probably had to be after they enter the Sanctuary in order to keep the "problem" the same. If they're not trapped then he can convince Emilia not to go or other unusual solutions.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Enerugii

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Monotremes 4 life!

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Not Keyser Soze posted:

I really enjoyed this episode but at the same time I find it amusing that the first phase of some mystical gauntlet everyone talks up as perilous is...remembering that your parents are cool and love you and that you're gonna be okay.

"Beware! Foolish adventurers. You have strayed into the Caverns of Catharsis!"

I think it was more like placing him in the worst part of his life, when he was in the midst of his depression, except all the experiences he's had since then allowed him to approach it differently than he did before. He was supposed to continue being "stuck" there just like he'd been stuck for the last 3 months. Which is why the witch was surprised he came so early: most people don't overcome that sort of thing so easily.

Edit: Leaving also requires him to choose to intentionally abandon his parents.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 08:53 on Jul 30, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Nitrousoxide posted:

It is pretty hosed up that he keeps shoving her back into the gauntlet over and over when she clearly can't handle it.

I liked the implication that he's doing exactly the same thing to her that he got angry at Rozwaal for.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Nitrousoxide posted:

Perhaps. However his demeanor is more in line with a archbishop of pride. Since he was incredibly offended when he was interrupted and not paid his proper respect.

Didn't Beetlejuice specifically say the archbishop of Pride was a vacant position? That's why he thought Subaru might be the one.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 00:48 on Aug 20, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I mean, I'd believe it.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I never had any doubt that she was the best girl.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Well, in a certain weird way you could say that by absorbing all the other witches, Satella is now responsible for everything any of them have done.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I think the idea we're arguing is that the witches are beyond good and evil, they're a weird sort of divinity that you have to respect simply because there's no alternative.

Like, the sea. The sea kills tons of people. It also has a lot of tasty fish in it. But you wouldn't call the sea evil, nor would you call it good. It just is what it is. And if you happen to be a religious person in a seafaring culture you would probably pray to the sea gods before every voyage, because it can't hurt to get on their good side, can it?

In other words, the witches are not people in the normal sense. They are forces of nature.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 05:00 on Sep 6, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Well, as far as we know the only thing that's ever managed to kill a witch is another witch, so either way you'd better get used to them being around?

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Conspiratiorist posted:

The White Whale is stated to have been plaguing the world for 400 years, and Daphne died 400 years ago, therefore she made it shortly before she died.

This is all in the anime: popular belief is that the Witch of Envy created the mabeasts, but what we're learning is that Daphne created at least the three Great Ones and possibly the rest as well - with all of it being latter attributed to Satella since she became de-facto the Devil after she killed half the world around that time.

The implication of which is that she stopped being active 400 years ago and was active for an unknown amount of time prior to that. While it's not specifically stated, they do seem to be kind of immortal-ish so until otherwise stated I think her being a few centuries old prior to her death is a safe assumption, possibly even thousands of years.

I mean this is a setting with elves and stuff so a godlike magical being that lives for thousands of years or more and whose soul persists even in death seems pretty normal to me?

Clarste fucked around with this message at 12:07 on Sep 6, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


AnoHito posted:

I would also like to point out that, so far in the story, Satella hasn't actually done anything other than make Barusu functionally immortal. Most everything else about her has been second/third hand stories from people that already hate her and everything she stands for.

Well she also kills him or who he's talking to whenever he tries to explain that he's immortal.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Mindblast posted:

Satella literally strong armed Subaru into a situation where he'd constantly be in harm's way, and wired her "gift" to kill anyone who learned about it.

Subaru is only in any particular danger because he insists on sticking with Emilia, who is constantly in mortal danger at all times. If he just walked away he could easily live in peace. He always has a choice.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Kung Food posted:

Would be funny is he lived a full uneventful life with Rem and died of old age peacefully in his bed surrounded by loved ones, then goes immediately back to the last save point. Now that I think about it that is probably what would happen, I don't think he gets to nope out of his destiny.

According to what Echidna said this episode, the curse doesn't give a poo poo about what happens to anyone else, only whether Subaru himself is in danger in the near future. Why is why his save points update when they do. I guess Emilia could be an exception because she's the reincarnation of the witch or whatever, but there's no real indication that Satella cares if she lives or dies. In fact she clearly doesn't.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Hogama posted:

If the set-up's largely done, then as we have it - Mansion-wise: Elsa and Maylie show up with orders to kill the maids and Beatrice. Their arrival is flexible - they apparently were ordered to wait until Subaru is returning from Sanctuary, though if he leaves early enough they can be caught out as they seem to have some arrival/set-up time. It's not enough time (starting from the second day at least) to bypass them altogether, though. They may have an upper limit on how long they wait.
Elsa knows about the Door Crossing's brute force condition - this suggests some insider knowledge and may be the most damning evidence that Roswaal has hired her for the attack. Ram knew about it too (she mentioned it to Subaru when she as showing him around the mansion one loop), so it's at least known by the staff/residents of the manor, but given everyone else's states, it seems highly unlikely that it's anyone but Mathers himself who'd have told her. Elsa herself is a ridiculous opponent - she either has some serious ninja tricks to avoid death or she has some way to circumvent/regenerate from it, given Beatrice's attack. Maylie has a bunch of mabeasts with her - these may be a lesser threat overall (recalling that even Subaru was able to dispatch one), but it's potentially a troublesome amount of reinforcements and obstacles to escape. No one at the mansion seems capable of taking the duo out, and even Ram's addition isn't enough. Roswaal might be powerful enough to drive them off but he wouldn't be likely to help for various reasons. Maybe transformed Garfiel and Emilia would be enough to tip the scales? Subaru would need to find some way to get them out, which probably means finishing the trial.


The simplest solution to this is that if Roswaal really did hire Elsa, he could have simply ordered her to only kill anyone if Subaru shows up without Emilia or whatever. And do nothing otherwise. In which case this is a cruel test of character where Roswaal punishes Subaru for choosing "wrong" while still leaving everyone alive and well if he chooses to sacrifice them for Emilia. Which fits his MO as a psychopath who doesn't care what happens as long as the correct future exists, somewhere. It's not like he has any reason to have Elsa kill his own loyal vassals as long as Subaru complies.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Yak of Wrath posted:

Roswaal's comment about being fine with murder/death as long as an alternate him can potentially fulfill his longterm goals, made me think, there is no reason that any "bad" timeline would end with Suburu's death, maybe they're chugging along empowering Satella as Suburu fumbles about trying to find the "good" universe.

Roswaal said it would "end" for him when Subaru died which implied to me he believes that the alternate timelines will completely cease to exist past that point. I was actually assuming that the alternate timelines persisted until he said that. Then again, there's no reason to believe he fully understands the mechanics of this either.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Hogama posted:

I'm thinking Roswaal doesn't specifically know the details of Return by Death, and he only really seems to confirm suspicions that Subaru is looping at all when he starts mentioning things like "over and over." It seems that he's deduced that Subaru must be repeating timelines, and believes strongly enough that it really doesn't matter if "he" dies because his book continues to show the future that "should be", so when things go wrong he needs only trust Subaru to reset and do things properly the next time so that Roswaal will live on and go a step further to his goal. But he doesn't seem to actually know that death is the trigger - he questions Subaru on still not resetting after he roughs him up, which implies to me that he thinks that Subaru is in control of the power. I find it far more likely that he'd murder Subaru himself if he knew he could force it that way.

What's very possible to me is that his book actually has things written in it and he at least attempts to follow the script to the letter, and he's been piecing together the "whys" as it goes.


Yeah I noticed that too. He seems to be making some incorrect assumptions about it.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


smenj posted:

Great episode this week. Curious about something though:





So, Roswaal says the above just before he beats up Subaru, around 21:50, and audibly and with emphasis says "smart" in English, hence the italics in the subtitles. I'd not have thought much of it and might've just assumed it was a loanword in Japanese, if not for the fact that he immediately asks Subaru if he used the word correctly. Is this a word Subaru used around Roswaal before and Roswaal's using it to taunt him, and I've just forgotten about it, or is the show implying that Roswaal is aware that Subaru comes from another universe/world, and somehow knows enough about it to know some English words?

I got the impression that he learned it from Subaru (who has a habit of casually saying things that people wouldn't understand) but I don't remember any instance of him using that word specifically.

Actually come to think of it Garfiel does the same thing only backwards which is funny.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I agree that it's probably possible to negotiate a better deal with Echinda. Since even if he doesn't promise her a billion lifetimes of torture to satisfy her curiosity, she still gets way more out of tagging along with him than she does not doing that. Then again, I guess it would be hard for Subaru to trust her advice knowing that she may inflict eternal torture on his friends at any time for no reason.

Clarste fucked around with this message at 05:16 on Sep 24, 2020

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Yeah, assuming that she doesn't get control over his body somehow, the worst case scenario is just that he does exactly what he's been doing so far except she's always nagging him to run off into the woods and eat weird berries or whatever.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


Maxwell Adams posted:

I'm pretty sure that Echidna is doing all of this in service of her one true goal: sticking it to Satella.

First off, she gained Subaru's trust, and engineered a situation where Subaru would stab himself to get out of Satella's clutches. Satella didn't like that one bit.

After that, we've got the current situation. Subaru went to try and start up another tea party, but for some reason, it kicked off the second round of the trial instead. That was Echidna, breaking down Subaru so he would be ready to accept a helping hand when it was offered to him. She sent the witch of Lust in there first, which is a weird curveball, but whatever. When she offered the contract, Subaru was ready to accept it.

Now, it stand to reason that the witch of ENVY wouldn't be happy about someone else getting their mitts on her boy. I think there may be more to it than that, though. The other witches implied that a contract with Echidna would be an exclusive contract. What if Subaru currently has a contract with Satella? A new contract would overwrite it. That might even cause him to lose his RFD power. In any case, it would definitely piss off Satella, which seems to be Echidna's main objective.


That makes no sense at all, unless we assume that literally everything we know about her (like her greed for knowledge, etc) has been a lie. It's much more reasonable to assume that she's being honest about what she wants from him, which is to experience literally everything in the world by making Subaru die in every possible way.


Raenir Salazar posted:

If true that would explain why she acts a lot like Emilia? But I'm not really convinced its totally an act.

The biggest clue that it's not entirely an act is that she didn't seem to realize that her speech would turn him off. The whole point is that she doesn't truly understand him enough to only tell him what he wants to hear.

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


I have realized that Echinda actually represents all the readers who complain that Subaru isn't doing the "rational" thing by constantly killing himself to obtain minor advantages.

I have to assume that they're out there, I know how this works.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Clarste
Apr 15, 2013

Just how many mistakes have you suffered on the way here?

An uncountable number, to be sure.


The way I saw it, Roswaal was just smiling and nodding and thinking "good loving luck, sucker." The only possible result of it, as far as he can tell, is that Subaru experiences an even more crushing despair for the next loop, so why not? What does he have to lose?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply