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Not only that, exoskeletons simply are too unstable and fragile in larger scale, as the gravity becomes a problem at some point and external structure like an exoskeleton cannot support it very long. The main reason however why insects in general are small is again their lack of lungs. Trachea and spiracles are nice, but very ineffective compared to full active breathing. You can't get enough oxygen into a larger system to function properly, which is why larger insects also have muscles to contract their trachea a bit and suck in air more quickly. Still, a centralized breathing system is vital for even more growth.
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Apr 9, 2019 15:35
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man i fukken love learning about biology especially stuff like why things evolved certain ways, why certain systems make sense for one animal but not another, etc what's the deal wit hthe big rear end dragonflies, like the 6 footers i always hear about in dino times, if bug can't be too big, how dragonfly get so big
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Apr 9, 2019 15:59
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Well there's a long and wildly complicated answer and a super short one, but I'm going with the chill one instead. For one, Dino times were warmer and nicer, stuff was generally bigger. There is no hard limit there when evolution says "lol no, you're not going to get this big, you dick", it's variable and depends on many factors, like climate, diet, predators, dangers, genetic history etc. Hence why Dinos got so rear end big, while modern lizards are relatively okay in size. For two, 6 ft is wildly optimistic for any insect. There are fossil findings of dragonflies of up to 80cm in size, which already is HUGE, imagine that guy hitting your windshield, they'd probably smash it (not really but definitely turn into like a Liter of soup which is a ghost, so you'll be haunted). There are estimates that they might even go up to a meter, but not clear proof so far, anything above is wild speculation. For three, dragonflies fly, which means airs get sucked in over their trachea all the time they move, plus they might be long, but not really massive as they are limited additionally due to their wings and ability to (dragon)fly fast. This allows more growth in general, as size is always relative to mass. For four, dragonflies, at least the big ones, have a crazy active breathing system with muscles in their trachea to wildy improve oxygen intake. It's safe to assume that those old ones had similar setups, probably even more funky, to improve that situation. Plus their low mass and stretched body allows the exoskeleton to stay stable in its entirety, compared to for example bugs that usually are rather compact. Note that all insects depend on temperature, they have no ability to warm themselves up like we humans do, unless they cuddle intensively (which bees for example famously do). The larger the body, the more surface area you can lose heat from, so there's another limiting factor here. Also just imagine the time a 6 ft dragonfly would need to get ready in the morning. As we all know, they are fashionable animals and take great pride in their appearance. 
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Apr 9, 2019 16:43
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Goons Are Great posted:Also just imagine the time a 6 ft dragonfly would need to get ready in the morning. As we all know, they are fashionable animals and take great pride in their appearance. You'd think they'd take a long time but they actually roll right out of bed looking fly as hell. |
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Apr 9, 2019 19:47
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Goons Are Great posted:Not only that, exoskeletons simply are too unstable and fragile in larger scale, as the gravity becomes a problem at some point and external structure like an exoskeleton cannot support it very long. Yeah I'd read that too - cool about the larger bugs using a sort of jury rigged breathing. I'd also read a theory that high oxygen levels might make some difference in terms of insect size - not just because it meant their inefficient breathing system worked better but also some of what I'd read suggested that with the high oxygen levels they actually needed to grow larger to cope with oxidative stress - like how we use antioxidants to counter oxygen damage. Not sure if true though lol. Goons Are Great posted:Note that all insects depend on temperature, they have no ability to warm themselves up like we humans do, unless they cuddle intensively (which bees for example famously do). The larger the body, the more surface area you can lose heat from, so there's another limiting factor here. Yeah had heard that Asiatic honey bees even use weaponized cuddling - basically larger hornets attack their nests and they're not really equipped physically to deal with them so instead they respond by grabbing onto the initially hornet scouting the nest with a large number of bees and heat themselves up by using their wing muscles. Because they're smaller than the hornets they can survive a couple of degrees higher temperature and so they basically overheat it with cuddles.
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Apr 9, 2019 22:31
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They totally do that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5QxUR-mZVM
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Apr 10, 2019 01:31
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Goons Are Great posted:They totally do that: Cool video  bees always make me smile, I often go and smoke a joint while watching the big nest of them just outside the door to my room. They seem to be really healthy gals - the colony has been there for years and throws off multiple new swarms every year.S'pretty funny too cause the nest is set up in an old possum box that someone used in a vain attempt to stop possums nesting in their house and the bees came along and repurposed it... starting to get so large that it's growing out of the old box too.
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Apr 10, 2019 01:53
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I'd like to encourage you to make a few photos of that, it sounds amazing and bees are friends!!
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Apr 10, 2019 02:13
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By the way, next up for effortposting is a report about slave hunter ants and slavery in ant culture, currently looking for a good photoshop item for that purpose to lighten up the mood in there, if anyone got an idea!
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Apr 10, 2019 02:17
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Yeah I'll definitely try to get some pics up of the bee friendos soon! Hmmm... not too sure about ideas for the slaver ants, perhaps little pharoah hats?
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Apr 10, 2019 02:24
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Ok so while my ants for some reason started constructing sand walls on the surface and I'm not sure why, let's talk about slave hunter ants! Since there are not amazingly many pictures to share about those guys, as it's just ant business, I decided to instead include nice pictures to lighten up the mood. Just like this puppy discovering a small group of ants:  So slavery is a thing for ants. It shows no specific limitations and happens for forest ants from the subfamily Formica as well as Formicinae, however the over all numbers of slave hunter species is relatively small and most of them do it optionally, so those colonies sometimes have slaves and might even have a lot of them, but they never rely on them and do not need it for survival. A few species however are doing it the Sparta way and are entirely dependent on slaves. All of those species are more or less exclusive to central and southern Europe. Now, obviously, when there are slave hunters there also are slaves. Basically any species that cannot defend themselves properly can turn into victims here, however, there are specific slave ants: Serviformica. Those species are named that way because they happen to be victims all the drat time and are also adapting against the slave hunters, which in turn causes them to specialize for them, a process that is called co-evolution.  For an example of how this works, let's look at the Amazon ant, Polyergus rufescens. Those guy were discovered like 200 years ago and scientists were amazed by how crazily effective they get in the slave game, which they need to be as they entirely rely on them. At first, they send out scouts in every direction, looking for possible slave colonies. The scout sneaks upon the target colony, tries to judge whether or not they can raid those and then runs back as fast as he can, laying out a pheromone trail to find the way. The scout then tells his sisters at home, he recruits a commander and that commander then runs around the nest, spreading a special recruitment pheromone, which causes almost every slave hunter ant in the nest to get together and form a raid army. The army then starts marching towards the target nest, with the scout and commander on the vanguard. https://i.imgur.com/DmoZSn3.mp4 Once they reach their target, almost all inhabitants immediately flee the nest in sight of the army, taking as much of their babies with them as they can possibly carry. This is not only because JESUS loving CHRIST RUN RUNNNN which is an appropriate reaction, but also because the commander ant is spraying a "propaganda pheromone" causing panic across the nest and making them run for their life, climbing on grass and trees nearby the nest in hopes that they spare them. The Amazon ants then enter the nest strategically through every entrance they can find or that the scout reported about. They kill every ant that enters a fight with them, using their small, but specialized in piercing mandibles to bit them in their head, instantly killing them. Once inside, they take most eggs, larvae and cocoons they can find, leaving the queen and non-fighting worker ants on their own. They do not take every child though, as they do not want to weaken the nest too much in one raid, so that they can come back, to steal more slaves.  They bring them back to their nest, where the already existing slave ants will then carry in and take care of them, raising them as their own. The slave ants obviously cannot reproduce at all in their captors nests, as queens are never slaves, so that the slave hunters have to raid continuously and get more slaves. The ratio of slaves vs. master ants roughly 90-95% slaves, the rest are the hunters. It is not exactly known why the slave ants take care of the brood, find food, nourish their captors and don't flee, but for one it's likely because the slave ants usually are of the same species, so that in their eyes they are taking care of their regular sisters (which, given that they raid the same nest over and over again, is actually likely) and also it's believed that the master queen is spreading a submission pheromone that causes them to stay loyal. As such, it seems possible that the slave ants actually are not aware that they are slaves at all, as they were all stolen when they were babies and since ants find their home due to a certain "home smell" to it, and they only know this one, for them it's most likely just their home after all. Sounds scary, and surely is scary! Nature however does not know any mercy and only those who can adapt accordingly will survive, no matter how cruel it appears to be. Before you leave my thread forever, here, take a dog feeding a baby sheep: 
Goons Are Gifts fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Apr 11, 2019
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Apr 11, 2019 02:06
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Another great post GAG! That's fascinating - wish science would hurry up and discover more about how this works but what you've explained already is already amazing. Interesting that slave ants are usually of the same species - wonder how that weighs up in terms of group vs kin selection arguments. Also wonder what led them down this path evolutionwise - can see the benefits but it's an odd behaviour to have adopted all the same. Anyways that's a good doggo too and looking forwards to more of your posts Oh and wonder what your ladies are building there with the surface walls?
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Apr 11, 2019 02:16
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Stoner Sloth posted:Oh and wonder what your ladies are building there with the surface walls? Oh yeah, they started constructing these:  On the honey that's natural, as they try to defend it from potential predators that would also enjoy some honey, however they also started building those across the surface, making tiny Mount Anterests.
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Apr 11, 2019 11:22
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Pretty cool pics - perhaps your talk to them about Antman has them in a rush to build that cinema? Now a question... those ants spraying venom in the ant slaver post - do many species do that and are any specialists in that kind of chemical attack?
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Apr 11, 2019 11:55
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Stoner Sloth posted:Pretty cool pics - perhaps your talk to them about Antman has them in a rush to build that cinema? I will sure as hell not buy distribution rights for that movie for them though, but I heard ants are amazing lawyers anyways.  The ants doing this are these guys:  Formica Rufa, or Red Wood Ants. They are common in Europe and temperate regions around the world, sadly by now endangered, in some regions devastatingly endangered, due to insecticides and loss of forests. I included them in the slave hunter post, because they sometimes are facultative slave hunters and sometimes have a small number of slaves in their nest, but do not rely on it at all, it's just an option. As with most evolutionary advanced and specialized ants they reduced their venom stinger to spraying devices and as you can see, they do have an amazing range and also concentration. As with all Formica species though, they do not spray venom alone, but Formic Acid, which they heavily use to burn off the armor of their main diet: Bugs. Amazingly, as you can see, the acid lands back on them and you might think "lol, but they are burning themselves then, right? Because if they burn through chitin in a bug's exoskeleton, they surely hurt themselves" and that is actually true. However, as pointed out earlier in this thread, some ants have hair and those guys, as you can see on the relatively high res picture above, they also do have them. This offers some sort of protection, but it does hurt them in general, so yeah, they are doing this as an act of desperation over this monstrous stick attacking their home nest, which for them means a potentially fatal attack on their entire family. Now, the general act of spraying venom (or acid) like this is in fact extremely common, almost any non-stinger owning advanced ant species have those devices inside their butts, spraying acid or venom en mass. My ants, in fact, also do this. They just take this position:  Aim carefully with their asses and pew pew pew pew pew! 
Goons Are Gifts fucked around with this message at 13:38 on Apr 11, 2019
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Apr 11, 2019 13:36
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That's all really cool apart from ants being endangered - stay safe ant friends! And it reminds me of something else I wanted to ask about - you've mentioned fire ants before and I'd read somewhere that a type of ant uses their own venom to neutralize fire ant venom/formic acid... think it was a raspberry crazy ant? If that's the case was wondering if any ants that spray acid/venom mixtures have some chemical methods of self protection? Also in the context of ants, can you tell us about crematogaster (not sure if spelling is right) ants abilities in this regard?Thank you for all your effort posts and excellent pics again so many interesting things to learn!
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Apr 11, 2019 13:59
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Apr 11, 2019 17:37
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Apr 11, 2019 17:57
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I'd advise all gamer ants to AVOID "The Last of Us." Contains imagery that might upset some insects. All I'll say is that it's certainly not a "fung-ame." |
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Apr 12, 2019 01:01
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Stoner Sloth posted:That's all really cool apart from ants being endangered - stay safe ant friends! Oh don't get confused with Fire Ants and Formic Acid, a quick trip into taxonomy: The family of Ants (Formicidae) is categorized in a number of subfamilies, most of them are extinct by now, or very small and only contain one or a few single genera, sometimes even just a single species. However, by far most ants belong to one of those big subfamilies: Primal Ants (Ponerinae), Gland Ants (Dolichoderinae), Bull Ants (Mymeciinae), Nodal Ants (Myrmicinae) and Scale Ants (Formicinae). Since ants are a very old insect family (~200-250 million years), many of those still possess very old properties, as they never had to reduce it via evolution, as ants belong to the very few kinds of animals that can compensate changes in environment and evolutionary pressure by being insanely adaptable. Also, since every single ant ever found and classified was eusocial and as such, many factors that usually lead to mutations and changes in the family (a high genetic frequence, mutation, selection, genetic drift, genetic separation and gene flow) are reduced and don't affect ants as much as they affect other animals. This is the reason why we can find ants today that barely changed from the oldest fossils (150-200 million years) that we have nowadays. From those subfamilies listed only Myrmicinae and Formicinae are relatively advanced in their evolutionary progress (so they were able to reduce the stinger, develop an acidopore to spray things, reduce the cocoon of the pupae, develop claustral queen-only founding phases and more), the others share similar properties as their predecessors do (having a stinger, having cocoons, usually be semi-claustral which means the queen does leave her founding tube, don't develop highly specialize strategies like slavery etc.), as they never changed as much. That doesn't mean that either subfamily can't share certain properties of another subfamily (like still owning a stinger, or even re-gaining it due to different evolutionary pressure etc.) Now, exclusively the subfamily Formicinae is able to produce Formic Acid (plus venom sometimes), all other subfamilies produce exclusively venom and also still possess a stinger. Fire Ants (Solenopsis) belong to Myrmicinae, so they have a stinger and produce potent venom. I had to look up which ants you mean, however yes!The Raspberry crazy ant, Nylanderia Fulva (being part of Formicinae) are able to neutralize the venom Fire Ants produce, by rubbing themselves in their own Formic Acid. It is not known how exactly that works, as Formic Acid does not neutralize the Alkaloids and proteins Fire Ant venom contains, but we know that it does protect them against the Fire Ant venom, simply as they have a massively increased chance of survival when doing so before battling Fire Ants. Ants usually do not develop chemical counter strategies against other ants, simply because ants do not often use venom against other ants. They try to do so of course, but it's very dangerous, as in order to do so they have to expose their vulnerable gaster towards the enemy, who might try to use their mandibles to bite you there, which would potentially be lethal, as most organs are inside the abdomen. This is especially true for Fire Ants, as they have to get their stinger at best inside the rival ant, which then looks like this:  (Those are not Fire Ants, but Jumping Ants, who belong to the Primal Ants, but since they have the same stinger, you get the idea) As you can see, it does work, but it's not exactly a safe strategy to be used in close combat. However, fascinating it is either way!!
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Apr 12, 2019 13:46
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(Note that all of the stuff above is a bit simplified and none of this is exclusive. While it is true that all Myrmicinae have a stinger and Formicinae never have one, many Mymicine species do have spraying devices to spray their venom a bit, usually not terribly far. Also all Formicina ants do have Formic acid but most also have venom, which they spray along with Formic acid. None of those properties are defining the subfamily exclusively, it's the combination and many genetical factors plus ancient history from where they originate from that results in these categories.) I had to look up Crematogaster ants, part of Formicinae, as well, but those guys are a invention-heavy genus that mostly live peaceful, as long as they are not attacked. They have drastically reduced acideoporae, so they are unable to spray their Formic acid, instead they have to rub it all over the place, which surely is a nasty process. They barely ever hunt moving objects and mostly steal eggs or pupae from other insects and get creative in getting food, as they for example are heavily into the herding game and love to eat worms. Some species aren't even territorial and are happily inviting other ants to live nearby or even merge their nests, even if they are of different species, which is an extremely rare process. Now, I couldn't find much regarding their ability to neutralize venom, but as they have to rub their stuff around, it seems possible! Have to dig through more books for more details though.
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Apr 12, 2019 14:19
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Ah okay - I think I see what I did there, sort of mixed things up there while stoned but that makes sense. Also my own post was confusingly mixed up too. Guessing the two species (raspberry crazy ants and fire ants) evolved in the same area with close competition for resources and space + frequent flooding that forced competition. Heard that the crazy ants were one of the few species that tend to displace fire ants and even though they were an invasive species they had less environmental effect and caused less displacement or extinction of native ant species. The crematogaster ones though I was more asking about their venom shooting abilites - think I'd read they were particularly good at that and folded their abdomen up over their head in almost any direction. If I'm not confused I'd read of some species being referred to as acrobat ants? Anyways thanks as always for taking the time to explain and provide more cool pics of ant frens!!
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Apr 12, 2019 15:13
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Classic position from the kam-ant-sutra |
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Apr 12, 2019 15:44
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Stoner Sloth posted:The crematogaster ones though I was more asking about their venom shooting abilites - think I'd read they were particularly good at that and folded their abdomen up over their head in almost any direction. If I'm not confused I'd read of some species being referred to as acrobat ants? Acrobat Ants or Cocktail Ants are according to wikipedia actually just synonymes for the genus Crematogaster. Funnily, the English wikipedia page is actually contradictory to itself, too, no idea what happened there. Either way, Crematogaster are indeed known for their ability to be super agile with their asses and aim everywhere, but they mainly do it to appear more threatening and booo don't come close. Some species do in fact not have any venom anymore, all species have a spraying device, sometimes larger and better than others, but most of them are no longer able to actually spray it around. They produce venom and it just drops out, so they then rub their rear end in a top hat on the enemy to shock and stun them. Other species there are able to produce a lot of venom and spray a tiny bit, but still they mainly use their agile butts to rub them all over the place, just like this:  Or this  That white thingy on the rear end is venom froth dropping out of its rear end.
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Apr 12, 2019 18:11
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SciFiDownBeat posted:Classic position from the kam-ant-sutra "Oh Jennifer, I love you, let's try something new for once!" "Okay, let me just find out what happens if I stick this thing into your chest and... hello? You still here? Wake up! I wasn't THAT bad!"
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Apr 12, 2019 18:13
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Goons Are Great posted:Acrobat Ants or Cocktail Ants are according to wikipedia actually just synonymes for the genus Crematogaster. Funnily, the English wikipedia page is actually contradictory to itself, too, no idea what happened there. Okay - that's quite interesting. Sounds weird that they lost that ability but maybe they just didn't really need it for much in which case loss of venom is common in the animal world. Marbled sea snakes are a perfect example of that, by specializing in eating only fish eggs they lost the need for venom and as a result lost not only their venom but the venom glands and even their fangs eventually. Either way I love the idea of them having super agile asses and threatening things by shaking their booty at them.
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Apr 12, 2019 23:22
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How is ant frens doing OP?
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Apr 13, 2019 17:46
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Nothing special. Wall construction has seized and I'm going to rebuilt their outworld because a biological experiment not mentioned at all so far failed on a holy poo poo it's loving mutants taking over the world-level, so I'll be busy with taking care of my non ant friends that are connected to their nest over the upcoming week. Queen has not moved yet, workers seem to enter slow building mode in nest #2, the queen probably has doubts moving now as I fixed the water situation, so they're not too eager on working on a new nest, they probably keep it as a backup. Still no idea in terms of brood. If she did not lay any until now stuff might be seriously wrong, but I can't know without destroying stuff, so I'll be patient. I also am kinda running out on effort posts to make, as more exciting ant specials like parasitic ants, vampire blood sucking ants or similar special things probably go too far, so this thread might get slow until I have stuff to report. 
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Apr 13, 2019 22:04
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Aww. This thrad is wonderful, GAG, and you're doing an amazing job. If you have to take time off, that's completely understandable, but if you want to get (even more) esoteric, I'm certain we'd love reading anything you wish to post. *hug*
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Apr 13, 2019 22:36
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Oh no all is well, it's just that ant colonies move slowly compared to thread lifetimes, as that kind of stuff takes months to develop. Happy to do more effort posts though if you guys want to know something!!
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Apr 13, 2019 23:42
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Goons Are Great posted:Oh no all is well, it's just that ant colonies move slowly compared to thread lifetimes, as that kind of stuff takes months to develop. That's okay mate it's been plenty entertaining so far!!All of the special things sound interesting as gently caress... but figure I'd start with something (hopefully) simpler - can you tell us about 'ant plants' and symbiosis between various sorts of flora and our and friendos! I love your effort posts and also curious as hell to know about this biological experiment when you have the time - hope the Queen has lots of brood going in any case and that your friends, ants and non-ants are doing okay too
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Apr 14, 2019 00:45
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Will have to do some major botanic reading about ant plants, but I already know that some plants are heavily, sometimes even mainly distributed by ants who accidentally carry around their seeds (like harvester ants, but they are usually way too efficient for that), but I see what i can do!! The long story short about my side project here is that the ants live in their nest, but there also is a tube that connects them to the actual outworld. Usually food, water and everything is only given there, but since the outworld has a lot of other living creatures in it, I am not encouraging the ants to go there in fear of them getting infected by something bad. At the same time, I also do not stop them from going there, which seems weird, but I was very undecided what to do about this. Since those creatures there kinda started doing biology and mutated into holy poo poo they're everywhere and they are zerg rushing the poo poo out of my setup, I need to evacuate the ones I intend to keep from those I need to release into the wilderness of my garden, clean the entire thing up and then rebuild it from the ground, so I can actually can have a calm mind when my ants explore their outworld. Stuff that developed there that I did not plan to have there: spiders bugs SPIDERS mites (which are spiders and I can't really stop those from infesting living material after all, but, you know) a tomato plant because a single seed survived the feeding frenzy and went like "lol, I'm so going to grow right now" a weird plant that I couldn't identify yet, competing with moss flies moths???? for a brief moment, a bird fungus some things I found while microsping the ground and what the gently caress is that kind of party As you can see, not an optimal situation for a vulnerable, small and perhaps damaged ant colony of which I don't even know if they are well and having brood yet, so I need to set a certain limit of what life I can allow in there for now Maybe I'll post pictures later!!
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Apr 15, 2019 00:11
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the colony must survive |
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Apr 15, 2019 20:07
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 This is the current outworld. As you can see, stuff. I got new soil and fresh things to start over with today, so I try to get the fixing started today or tomorrow. The ants so far have not touched that ground yet as far as I can see, obviously I can't be certain as I don't monitor them 24/7 but if one scout would have discovered it, he'd have laid a trail and they'd travel there more often. Need to find a way to take everything out without killing everyone involved there, remove the entire soil, clean the thing massively and then rebuild using new soil, before I can replant the hopefully still living stuff I evacuated, mostly Springtails and the moss. Not sure how to do that yet though. If everything else fails I may have to dump everything out and release it in the wild (it's all local animals, so should be fine for both the environment and the animals) and start over entirely to ensure no infestation remains. I sincerely hope this won't be necessary though.
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Apr 16, 2019 15:09
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Also, my colony is still alive! I was worried as I haven't seen my guys for three days at all, but it turns out after adjusting my using-lamps-behavior (the ants live next to me and my computer, which means if I'm awake they usually will have to tolerate some light, even at night) and providing darkness for them even if I need light, they started to be more natural and turn into night shift workers. Saw them doing ant business at night, so it seems cool. I can't wait to see at least one new ant or one carrying brood or giving me any kind of sign that the queen is busy doing Royal business with her butt, so I can finally stop worrying that something terrible is off.
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Apr 16, 2019 15:13
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sending thoughts and prayers to ant friendos. here's hoping they'll adjust to their circumstances and start to thrive and that the queen is brooding away noicely and doing extremely Royal things with her butt!
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Apr 16, 2019 15:45
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stay safe ants! 
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Apr 16, 2019 20:50
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How many ants would you estimate live in your colony currently? Will you expand their universe and include more condominiums of ants in the future?
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Apr 16, 2019 21:07
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Oh it's only 3 ants that I know of right now, plus hopefully a few eggs or larvae. I cannot expect adult ants to spawn for another month, as the queen merely moved into her chambers a month ago and this species takes roughly 2 months to grow from egg to worker. The setup can easily hold more than 400 ants before they would start looking for another place (resulting in them breaking out constantly, as the colony enters expansion mode), I can't expect the colony to grow more than to maybe 50 ants until winter hits, so plenty of space. Next year however, if all goes well, this growth can massively increase in speed. I could add more outworlds or even nests easily, my setup is entirely modularly, so if that becomes necessary, I will surely add stuff! Never another ant colony though, they would end up in ant war immediately, as they cannot tolerate any other ants nearby and would fight for death. I do however plan to relatively soon get another Vivarium and start herding fruit flies in there, so I can offer the ants something to hunt once they start to go into hunting mode. Those will explode in population in no time. |
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Apr 16, 2019 23:17
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Goons Are Great posted:Happy to do more effort posts though if you guys want to know something!! I want to know literally anything about cool ants and bugs |
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Apr 17, 2019 00:05
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