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Also actual historians have argued that the level of violence, war, rape and misogyny isn't really how the actual Middle Ages worked.
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Jul 26, 2022 20:54
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I loved how amped the peasants are about the Last Duel. I bet it ruled when the assholes who make your life suck get into fights and kill each other for your amusement.
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Jul 26, 2022 20:59
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Baron von Eevl posted:Gurm's point that history was bad too isn't really relevant since the show isn't historical. It doesn't matter what lines up with history for some time range when you also have dragons and ice revenants and poo poo. Then he should stop saying that he describes so much rape and misogyni because of history.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:21
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GRRM's "this is just history!!!," especially in the context of the show, falls apart given that it pays no respect to any questions of feudal economics, politics, senses of scale, or the realities of infrastructure. If everyone were organized into punitively aggressive hunter-gatherer tribes it would make more sense, because there's no way Westeros as depicted can sustain agriculture, and therefore an economy, and therefore these endless wars. If every Middle Ages ruler was just a psychopathic rapist warlord, nothing would function. Adding to this problem is that HBO "adult" shows historically use male gaze softcore porn to "jazz up" dialogue-heavy sequences and so on, it's almost like an HBO style guide thing. E: Pop history also pays outsized attention to the somewhat rare absolute batshit rulers and incidents, and GoT is very pop history-focused. Name Change fucked around with this message at 21:44 on Jul 26, 2022 |
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Jul 26, 2022 21:42
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Sodomy Hussein posted:it's almost like an HBO style guide thing. From what they've said in the past, it's worse than that. Some HBO exec shows up every so often and goes "hey can we get more titties?"
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Jul 26, 2022 21:48
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JOHN SKELETON posted:Also actual historians have argued that the level of violence, war, rape and misogyny isn't really how the actual Middle Ages worked. Which is also a contentious claim, because what we know of history is what's recorded and what's recorded from the Middle Ages reflects who was literate and who was empowered to narrate events, most typically men connected to political and religious power structures. Not to say that GRRM is right, but the fact there were more robust social structures in IRL medieval Europe (compared to GoT's extreme lawlessness) doesn't mean that violence, rape, or misogyny were not rampant or common problems. Just invisible or undiscussed ones in the historical record, which is true of these issues even in recent history.
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Jul 26, 2022 21:50
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Sodomy Hussein posted:GRRM's "this is just history!!!," especially in the context of the show, falls apart given that it pays no respect to any questions of feudal economics, politics, senses of scale, or the realities of infrastructure. If everyone were organized into punitively aggressive hunter-gatherer tribes it would make more sense, because there's no way Westeros as depicted can sustain agriculture, and therefore an economy, and therefore these endless wars. If every Middle Ages ruler was just a psychopathic rapist warlord, nothing would function. I do feel like the book is a bit better about this than the show but even so Martin absolutely has issues with scale hence the Wall (which does look really cool tbf)
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Jul 26, 2022 22:05
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Westeros is ridiculously huge for some reason, which among other things means that basically none of the military campaigns in it could possibly work logistically.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:13
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Alhazred posted:Then he should stop saying that he describes so much rape and misogyni because of history. Yes, that was my point.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:20
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Qwertycoatl posted:Westeros is ridiculously huge for some reason, which among other things means that basically none of the military campaigns in it could possibly work logistically. Yeah, his whole "What if Great Britain but the size of South America" central conceit is absurd on its face because, for one thing there wouldn't be seven kingdoms, there'd be like 40.
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Jul 26, 2022 22:41
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ruddiger posted:I wonder what GRRM thought of the Last Duel. "Goddamn, can Ridley Scott direct the trial by combat scenes in all my GOT spinoff shows?"
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Jul 26, 2022 23:36
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that movie stank.
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Jul 27, 2022 00:17
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Sodomy Hussein posted:GRRM's "this is just history!!!," especially in the context of the show, falls apart given that it pays no respect to any questions of feudal economics, politics, senses of scale, or the realities of infrastructure. If everyone were organized into punitively aggressive hunter-gatherer tribes it would make more sense, because there's no way Westeros as depicted can sustain agriculture, and therefore an economy, and therefore these endless wars. If every Middle Ages ruler was just a psychopathic rapist warlord, nothing would function. https://twitter.com/JessPendley/status/1551253842389614592?s=20&t=CLzvEZ69MMHHk99xC50A3Q 
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Jul 27, 2022 00:53
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Yeah, Westeros is huge. I. think I remember reading King’s Landing is something like 1300 miles from Winterfell. Which means it should take a wagon-train like the one in season 1 about a month or a little more to make that trip.
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Jul 27, 2022 01:04
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It did, didn't it? Wasn't that the entire point of why the King's Road existed to begin with?
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Jul 27, 2022 01:28
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Was it that long in the show? I was thinking it seemed shorter but I may be thinking of other journeys later in the show, where people went huge distances in what seemed like way too little time.
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Jul 27, 2022 01:39
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MrMojok posted:Was it that long in the show? I was thinking it seemed shorter but I may be thinking of other journeys later in the show, where people went huge distances in what seemed like way too little time. Enough people have had this same complaint that it does, in fact, fall at the feet of the show not being clear enough, though, but it taking half a season to reach a place wasn't going to cut it anymore when it was time to wrap up the plot. This all could've been done with a couple of shots of seasons changing or some poo poo, but LOL magic seasons, so I'unno. Do it with hair growth.
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Jul 27, 2022 02:08
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It's a little easier to imagine off-screen time passing between chapters of the book than it is between scenes or episodes of the show.
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Jul 27, 2022 02:11
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Happy Landfill posted:https://twitter.com/JessPendley/status/1551253842389614592?s=20&t=CLzvEZ69MMHHk99xC50A3Q we also gotta put the artillery in front of the infantry
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Jul 27, 2022 02:11
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Wildfire? Why would we need wildfire to fight ice zombies? Just give us some horses and some swords we can set on fire, it’s fine.
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Jul 27, 2022 03:17
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MrMojok posted:Was it that long in the show? I was thinking it seemed shorter but I may be thinking of other journeys later in the show, where people went huge distances in what seemed like way too little time. In the very first episode Cersei says "we've been riding for a month"
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Jul 27, 2022 06:49
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Captain Splendid posted:In the very first episode Cersei says "we've been riding for a month" Ah, okay. I skipped S1 during my recent rewatch because I watched it late last year, but I guess I forgot that.
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Jul 27, 2022 07:49
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The only person actually saddled with a lengthy travel time later on was Gendry during his infamous boat voyage. But then they made it up to him by having him run back to the Wall all the way from that frozen lake in like a day lol.
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Jul 27, 2022 08:44
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And then Davos ends up finding him working as a smith in King's Landing. He didn't do a very good job escaping.
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Jul 27, 2022 08:52
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Sodomy Hussein posted:GRRM's "this is just history!!!," especially in the context of the show, falls apart given that it pays no respect to any questions of feudal economics, politics, senses of scale, or the realities of infrastructure. If everyone were organized into punitively aggressive hunter-gatherer tribes it would make more sense, because there's no way Westeros as depicted can sustain agriculture, and therefore an economy, and therefore these endless wars. If every Middle Ages ruler was just a psychopathic rapist warlord, nothing would function. It's especially funny because Martin has said that one of the reason he wrote the books was to answer the question "what was Aragorn's tax policy?"
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Jul 27, 2022 09:26
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Happy Landfill posted:https://twitter.com/JessPendley/status/1551253842389614592?s=20&t=CLzvEZ69MMHHk99xC50A3Q I remember that green versus the black book having some pretty metal deaths. Toplowtech fucked around with this message at 13:03 on Jul 27, 2022 |
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Jul 27, 2022 13:01
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ruddiger posted:Wildfire? Why would we need wildfire to fight ice zombies? Just give us some horses and some swords we can set on fire, it’s fine.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:02
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TOOT BOOT posted:And then Davos ends up finding him working as a smith in King's Landing. He didn't do a very good job escaping. The last place the Gold Cloaks will look for me!
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Jul 27, 2022 19:08
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Electro-Boogie Jack posted:I found the first few episodes entertaining enough but didn't love them like some friends did, but the incredible collapse into unwatchable dreck was still pretty striking IMO. Good contrast with GOT because there are so few episodes of Sherlock, so the whole decline is really compressed; within a handful of eps you've gone from Cumberbatch having some fun being Sherlock to an ouroboros of the dumbest poo poo and most ham-handed tone shifts anyone has ever made. I enjoyed the first two series. Third felt like a let down and I actually remember the 4th occasionally putting me to sleep.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:17
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TOOT BOOT posted:It's a little easier to imagine off-screen time passing between chapters of the book than it is between scenes or episodes of the show. It also helps if it's clear that time has passed. I think maybe that was the main problem: it felt like characters were teleporting to, say, Winterfell because they'd show up the next episode but it wouldn't be clear or feel like it had been a month in Winterfell.
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Jul 27, 2022 19:20
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And there were lots of places where there just wasn't enough time for all the travel to have taken place. People laugh at Gendry running to the wall, the raven flying to Danaerys, and Danaerys flying all the way past the wall to the rescue in the span of a single night, but there's also stuff like the Knights of the Vale somehow marching north in time to save the northmen attacking the Boltons, or the Lannisters teleporting to Highgarden, or the poo poo scenes in Dorne, where they're tied to time-sensitive events in one location or another and there's simply no time for these people to have gotten where they've gone.
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Jul 28, 2022 00:33
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Pennsylvanian posted:I remember hearing that BSG's ending was really bad but that most people have come to terms with it by now. I thought BSG's ending was weird but not really bad. The season leading up to that ending was pretty awful IIRC though. But maybe it's time for a rewatch? Is BSG streaming anywhere these days? Also lol at "just a few Twitter weirdoes hated the last season of GoT!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVR5Ju8gNys
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Jul 28, 2022 09:14
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Alternate ending where the show just ends after the shot where Dany puts on the evil dress and the dragon make it look like she has evil wings too.
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Jul 28, 2022 13:04
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Shaman Tank Spec posted:I thought BSG's ending was weird but not really bad. The season leading up to that ending was pretty awful IIRC though. But maybe it's time for a rewatch? Is BSG streaming anywhere these days? BSG didn't have the worst ending possible, but it suffered really heavily from being in the LOST era of dramas where writers thought they had a green light to pack in mysteries and side stories even if they didn't have any idea where they were going with them. I didn't mind the revelation that the various "head" characters were literally angels, since the show always had a strong religious theme to it, but the later seasons suffered because they obviously had not nailed down how the finale was going to work and still had to write plotlines leading up to it. I thought what they did with Starbuck was particularly egregious -- there were scenes all through the final seasons about where she could have come from, all the weird anomalies in her Viper, this whole mystery that they tried to get the viewers invested in... and then whoops, we didn't really plan this out so no, there's no answer to the mystery, I guess she just disappears cause she was an angel too.
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Jul 28, 2022 13:46
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Even if the BSG ending was kinda bad, it still had some really powerful character moments. Baltar's, "I know about farming" line still sticks out in my mind years later.
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Jul 28, 2022 14:05
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I remember being really put off when after years of the show hyping the mystery of who "the Final Five" were and endless fan theories and debates, the show writers proudly said in an interview that they'd picked the identities a week before filming the reveal.
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Jul 28, 2022 15:26
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Combinging both great moments and dumb mysteries - Starbuck "feeling" where Earth is and screaming and sobbing uncontrollably because they're going the wrong way is an incredibly powerful moment. Yeah, God is probably manipulating events, probably for benevolent purposes, but it's still utterly terrifying because it's God sticking his thumb on the scale, and God is terrifying and unknowable. I still maintain that BSG;s problem wasn't all the religious stuff, it's that they didn't lean into it enough. Heck, S1 ends with them finding incontrovertible proof that their religious texts are historically correct, and nobody seems that affected by it.
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Jul 28, 2022 15:27
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Drunk in Space posted:Even if the BSG ending was kinda bad, it still had some really powerful character moments. Baltar's, "I know about farming" line still sticks out in my mind years later. Likewise the way Roslin goes out, and Adama's reaction to it. On a character level, the BSG finale is mostly pretty great. It just throws in these weird swings like Starbuck being an angel who disappears in a blink. And I agree, pretty much everything about the Final Five was stupid LOST bullshit. They picked a totally arbitrary number of models in S1 to create tension and paranoia. The Final Five were just going to be a bunch of randos who may or may not have been in the Fleet. It was plainly obvious there was never any significance to that in the lore until they pivoted hard that way in S3. (And the Big Reveal of who they were felt equally arbitrary. Saul Tigh? Chief Tyrol? Sure, gently caress it, I guess. Why not?) But the character conclusions were mostly really good. And I actually love the stupid little epilogue. Way better ending than GoT, which failed the show's established lore AND its character.
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Jul 28, 2022 20:21
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Xealot posted:Likewise the way Roslin goes out, and Adama's reaction to it. On a character level, the BSG finale is mostly pretty great. It just throws in these weird swings like Starbuck being an angel who disappears in a blink. "Oh poo poo! We hosed up the numbering back in season 1!" The finale wasn't the best but it could've been worse, at least they got to end it on their terms. This was dumb as gently caress, though 
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Jul 28, 2022 20:33
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https://twitter.com/BaldMove/status/1552689971995103234?s=20&t=QDYrdF4aHBSJvXGOoi1Ktg I wonder if this is the thing that already leaked, about the White Walker prophecy or whatever. Spoilered just in case
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Jul 28, 2022 21:48
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