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The crystal is making fairly close to the correct frequency. My lab is still in boxes because I've been so busy doing everything else and I can't find my USB oscilloscope. But this stupid thing is hard to lose. The first picture shows what the waveform looks like, the second is scaled in a bit for better time scale resolution to determine frequency. In the first pic, I have the time scale set to 10uS and the voltage scale set to 10mV (with a 10x probe because I can't find any 1x probes around (also a 10x probe is better at not loving with a delicate circuit like a crystal)). I'm using AC coupling. I have no idea what the waveform is supposed to look like in a watch nor do I know what the voltage at the crystal should look like. If I put the scope in AC coupling and hook it across the battery I see a pulse of about 50mV several times a second. Again, I have nothing to go by, but that seems kind of excessive. It may after all be the new battery. I'm afraid to hook it to a power supply since I don't know if it relies on a high battery internal resistance to avoid letting the smoke out.  This second picture is kinda blurry and crappy, but it gives better resolution for finding a frequency. The time scale is set to 5uS. I'm going to say the period is 30.05uS, maybe a smidge less. That gives a running frequency of 32.787kHz which is really close to what I'm assuming the ideal frequency of 32.768kHz should be. I'm not a clock doctor, though, so I'm not entirely sure how to use any of these data...  EDIT: I forgot my fluke 87V is a true RMS meter and really accurately measures frequency.... It measured 32.77kHz, so I was really close with my pos old CRO. Oh also I realized I forgot to mention above... It runs correctly for about 30 seconds after connecting the battery, then it starts going haywire, eventually getting stuck twitching. If I disconnect the battery and wait a few minutes, this repeats. So either the battery is in fact hosed, or something builds up a charge after a while and decides it isn't happy. nfi. chrisgt fucked around with this message at 03:50 on Apr 27, 2019 |
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Apr 27, 2019 03:40
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I was gonna say from your first image it's probably a 32kHz crystal which is pretty typical for a watch/clock. I think the oscillator is fine.
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Apr 27, 2019 05:47
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Maybe one of the gears has some schmoo on it and it's sticking and then suddenly releasing?
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Apr 27, 2019 12:50
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I'll bet it's sticky oil/grease causing the motor to bog down, which causes the voltage to drop. It needs an Italian tuneup: fire up your time machine and run forward and back a couple hundred years quickly, that'll loosen up the gears. Honestly, hop over to the watch repair thread and ask there, I think it's in Ask/tell.
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Apr 28, 2019 14:33
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sharkytm posted:I'll bet it's sticky oil/grease causing the motor to bog down, which causes the voltage to drop. It needs an Italian tuneup: fire up your time machine and run forward and back a couple hundred years quickly, that'll loosen up the gears. Oh that's a good idea. I did a quick search and didn't find anything, but I've been lazy at internetting. I have done a bunch of work but haven't done a good job with pictures and making posts, maybe tomorrow I'll take some pics and make a good post...
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Apr 30, 2019 02:48
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I've sucked at internetting lately, life gets in the way of cars sometimes. Last weekend I went couch shopping, hiking, slept in (which almost never happens), and put some time into slow_is_fast's land cruiser so we can hopefully do some offroading later this summer. I somehow managed to fit in enough time to get some biturbo work done over the weekend. I got the cherry bomb muffler from autoplicity in double time (maybe they saw it was me and didn't want a repeat amazon complaint. According to my wife who works as a sales assistant or something, if amazon gets multiple complains for the same thing, especially from the same customer, it's not good). Anyway, I got the muffler, bought some pipe, and did some welding. I didn't clean the stupid coating off the pipes and used flux core since I'm too lazy to go buy a tank of gas, my welds ran on worse than my sentences when I'm tired. The final result with hangers and everything. Fits like a glove and sounds just fantastic.  I also changed the transmission oil and rear diff oil. This is the lubricants page of the owner's manual, it's kinda crap.  In 86 or 87 (depending on what source you go by) they changed from the crappy differential that apparently only holds 1.4 pints of gear oil to a unit that holds well over a quart. I found this out when I bought a quart of gear oil and used the whole thing after the store closed. In reality it takes nearly two quarts. The manual also doesn't list manual transmissions. I think manual transmissions before 87 were somewhat rare, but they obviously did offer them since it lists Brakes and CLUTCH circuit. The manual transmission is a ZF S5-18/3 which seems to be an extremely common transmission used in dozens of different cars through the 80's and 90's. A good thing since 2nd gear synchro in mine is kinda sad. Probably from the PO driving around with a failing slave cylinder.... Anyway, I was able to find the manual from ZF and it said to just use SAE30 engine oil. Easy enough. I also found you can get dogbox versions of this transmission, just saying... Slow_is_fast gave me a work bench that fits perfectly in my little garage, so I need to spend some time getting organized here. I think I'm going to put a shelf under the bench so I can store things under it and then also under the shelf on the floor.  I think it would be better situated on the other side of the garage behind the mercedes. I'd have to put the mercedes in the other bay and relocate the lovely wire shelves.  The reason it may be better on this side is it's where the 240v outlets are. The electrical panel is back in that corner along with the 240v outlets, I might also just make a long extension cord for that. (or buy a 50 foot generator cord for $30 on craigslist...)  If I park the mercedes by the door I'm not sure I'll be able to open it... It's kind of a long car, the door is in a stupid place and has to open inwards...  Last week I spent a bunch of time measuring the gas shocks for the hood and for the trunk trying to find replacements. I found some gas shocks and end adapters on mcmaster carr that I thought would work for the trunk. It took some modification of the screw on end caps, but they did work. The trunk now stays open on its own, exciting.  I could not find anything suitable for the hood, so I just bought replacements from an ebay seller who I'm not going to name (yet...). I got a package that seemed way too light to contain a pair of gas shocks... Open the package and all I found inside was the protective sleeves the things SHOULD have been in, some business cards that (conveniently) had their phone number, and a packing slip. After some head scratching, I realized the person whose job it is to put poo poo in a package, seal the package, and put it in the mail didn't do their loving job.  I'm really hoping the fedex driver had a son with a riced out honda but he couldn't afford gas struts for the hood. It would be amazing if he managed in getting these to fit perfectly and then drove it to one of those car shows where everyone it flatbrims walks around and tells each other that their cars are so "clean" and "fresh." Then someone wrote down the part number for the gas shocks and realized they were for a maserati and everyone was like WHAT THE gently caress HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU FIGURE OUT THAT MASERATI PARTS WORK PERFECT ON A HONDA. Anyway, I didn't get the poo poo I ordered so I called the company. They were super nice and said they'd ship me new parts ASAP and give me a new tracking number. That was on monday and I haven't received parts or a tracking number from them... Right now I'm kinda blocked by not having tags. I could go pull the whole car apart and spend the next couple months rebuilding everything. And it's not that I won't eventually do that, but I kinda wanna drive it for a bit, fix the things that are really pressing, and backlog the rest until winter. The nice thing about a fairly small insulated garage is it should be pretty easy to keep at a decent temperature through most of the winter. I've also been spending some time trying to get my electronics lab set up at home, when that's all organized I'll pull the gauge cluster out and see if I can figure out why half of it doesn't work. 
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May 3, 2019 02:36
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chrisgt posted:I've also been spending some time trying to get my electronics lab set up at home, when that's all organized I'll pull the gauge cluster out and see if I can figure out why half of it doesn't work. A little disappointed that there is no video of the new mufflered sound. Hint. 
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May 4, 2019 18:47
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Darchangel posted:I know what you mean, but that right there is why it doesn’t work. That emblem. I feel bad starting it up, running it for a minute, then shutting it off. That's really bad for an engine. I'm gonna have to move it out of the garage to shuffle things around soon and do some maintenance on the toyota, so I'll get a video. Annoyingly the injector nozzles I need for the mercedes are backordered everywhere (I hope they're still available), but once I get those I'll send the injectors out for rebuild, then the mercedes is stuck where it's parked for a couple weeks. And yea, they plastered the emblem on every other square foot of the car just so you know it's going to be expensive to fix.
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May 4, 2019 18:55
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Ford seems to do that too, they want you to know every part that your swapping is Ford and no that one wont fit your car cause yours was made on a Wednesday and that part number only fits Thursday cars produced in months that have 30 days or fewer but not February unless its painted green.
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May 4, 2019 23:45
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Yea, and if it's a ford from the 70's through 90's it's probably a random mix of sae and metric hardware, too. Like usual I was out all weekend and got little done, I did swing by slow_is_fast's shop on the way home, though. He has a plasma cutter that he doesn't use that doesn't cut great. So I'm borrowing that. Plasma cutters are one of my favourite tools, so I'm gonna figure out why it's not cutting well and have fun randomly cutting poo poo into smaller pieces. He also has a bench vise not being used, so that made its way to my shop, too. I'm getting there in terms of the tools I need and making things organized. I need to swing by HF and pick up the $40 welding cart. That's not only cheaper than I could make one for, I don't have the time. I need to take a long lunch break one of these days and get some 75/25 bottles.  I have never lived in Vermont, that was just on the wall when I moved in. I like license plates, so I'm just gonna leave it. Now that I think of it, I've only been in Vermont a couple of times, too bad really; Vermont is a beautiful state. OHHH I also thought I'd be smart and take the gauge cluster out of the maserati. Figured I could pull it apart and figure out why the speedometer is intermittent and change the light bulb in the right blinker indicator. Maybe even fix the volt meter and make the tachometer start at zero. I started taking it out and there are wire nuts behind the dash, wires soldered onto the back of the cluster, the connectors go over a bent flex PCB with lifting traces and broken clips and standoffs.... So yea, I noped out really hard and pretended I didn't see any of it.
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May 6, 2019 11:38
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Gauge clusters bespeak such unknown horrors. Especially on low-run / DIY cars. Speedo cables that transmit physical rotation. Temp probes carrying ACTUAL FLUID to the gauge. I lay on my back in the footwell of a Superformance Daytona Coupe with blood running down my arm and despaired of ever again finding the screw anchor. All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. Time to die
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May 6, 2019 12:20
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chrisgt posted:
You’re going to have to deal with it sooner or later. It’s probably not all that bad, but then, I like fixing stuff like that (while cursing the idiot engineer who did *that*, and the DIY twit who did *this* the whole time...) Those flexible printed circuit things are terrible, though, especially when the just bend into a cavity, and the connector plugs into the same cavity.
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May 6, 2019 16:04
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Data Graham posted:Gauge clusters bespeak such unknown horrors. Especially on low-run / DIY cars. That's the voice of experience, right there.
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May 6, 2019 17:14
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My dad asked me to fix the cluster and dash wiring on his 71 cutlass once. It was so hosed by years of previous PO’s I noped out of that poo poo too, sorry dad not gonna be responsible for that poo poo pay someone to do it 
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May 6, 2019 17:26
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Applebees Appetizer posted:My dad asked me to fix the cluster and dash wiring on his 71 cutlass once. It was so hosed by years of previous PO’s I noped out of that poo poo too, sorry dad not gonna be responsible for that poo poo pay someone to do it poo poo, that one's easy. Source: I own a '70 Cutlass. My favorite is the clock that's wound by contact points.
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May 6, 2019 17:57
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Data Graham posted:Gauge clusters bespeak such unknown horrors. Especially on low-run / DIY cars. Let the past die. Kill it if you have to.
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May 6, 2019 21:06
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Data Graham posted:Gauge clusters bespeak such unknown horrors. Especially on low-run / DIY cars. The biturbo gauges are all electronic (except for vacuum/boost), as proudly printed all over the gauge faces. Darchangel posted:You’re going to have to deal with it sooner or later. It’s probably not all that bad, but then, I like fixing stuff like that (while cursing the idiot engineer who did *that*, and the DIY twit who did *this* the whole time...) I have no interest in touching this poo poo. I put it back together and it seems to work about the same as before. I'm aware of the fact that I'll have to fix it some day, I'll have to fix a lot of other things some day, too. Today is not that day. I really want to drive it some, see what's most pressing, and target those things. This winter when everything else is in storage I can blow the biturbo apart and start fixing all the "some day" projects. I have some ideas on how I can fix the problems with the connectors and whatnot. Even though I work in a painfully heavily regulated industry (medical) that saps most creativity out of engineering, I can still find solutions to poo poo outside of that sphere...
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May 6, 2019 22:44
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Oil pressure, of course. gently caress. I kept thinking to myself, no way, it couldn't have been coolant temp, nobody would do that because THAT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS
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May 6, 2019 23:13
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Data Graham posted:Oil pressure, of course. gently caress. Mechanical coolant temp sensors do exist, but they don't have active coolant going to them. If you were to attach a tube from the engine to a sensor you would have no flow past the sensor, thus it would be a meaningless reading (it would just read ambient temp). If you've ever seen a mechanical temperature gauge they have a sensor that goes into active coolant flow with a thin copper tube going all the way to the gauge, you can't remove the tube from the gauge so they're kind of a pain, you have to feed the sensor end all the way from the gauge mounting location to the engine, coiling up excess tube. I've never taken one apart, but if I had to guess how mechanical temperature gauge works, this is what I'd guess. If anyone actually knows how they work, please tell. They have a tube going from the sensor in the coolant passage to what's essentially a pressure gauge. The tube is filled with some sort of alcohol or solvent much like an old thermometer. As the sensor warms up, the fluid in the tube expands creating pressure which then moving the gauge. Tonight I got a lot of nothing done. Kept trying to organize the shop, failed to get the plasma cutter to cut well, and yelled at some lady walking a dog who didn't clean up her dog poo poo. Basically run of the mill crotchety old guy stuff.
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May 7, 2019 02:42
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That is exactly how old-school remote-reading thermometers work, using the vapor pressure of a volatile liquid, alcohol is the most common choice for low temp stuff, but water or water-glycerin mix can be used too, and yeah, if you break open the system at any point they're hosed for good, unless you have a highly specialized skill set and variety of tools, same goes for if they lose calibration, that's why they've been largely supplanted by RTDs or RTEs, which are cheap, easy and calibratable, even in industrial applications. You could totally make a direct-reading thermometer in the dash though, you'd just need a well in two lines, one from the suction and one from the discharge of the pump, so that there was flow over the sensing bulb. This would, of course, be a horrible, sociopathic thing to do as an automotive engineer, but most definitely possible. I mean wouldn't cars be more fun if you had to diagnose a series of fluid leaks from the dashboard?
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May 7, 2019 06:01
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Data Graham posted:Speedo cables that transmit physical rotation. Speedo cables were common into the 1990s, I don't see what the issue there is.
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May 7, 2019 06:03
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Being back the days of the temp gauge being in the radiator cap and visible from the drivers seat
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May 7, 2019 12:27
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Elviscat posted:I mean wouldn't cars be more fun if you had to diagnose a series of fluid leaks from the dashboard? VW's way ahead of you on this one. Look up coolant migration. They managed to transfer fluid via the wiring harness, resulting in such wonders as leaky ECUs and auto-filling blinker fluid.
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May 7, 2019 17:07
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Oil pressure gauges have a tiny tube to them that can actually do that, at least the hard wired parts store style ones. And older Subarus have that wonderful failure mode where trans oil migrates up the speedo cable sheath and pours out from under the instrument panel
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May 7, 2019 17:39
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Don't forget the fluid migration through the master cylinder mounted cruise control brake switch that was burning down late 90s/early 2000s Explorers and F series trucks.
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May 7, 2019 18:54
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My favorite is coolant migration from the overflow, through the wiring harness and ending up in the tailights, ECU, and door locks in some VW's
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May 7, 2019 19:47
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chrisgt posted:I'm aware of the fact that I'll have to fix it some day, I'll have to fix a lot of other things some day, too. Today is not that day. I really want to drive it some, see what's most pressing, and target those things. This winter when everything else is in storage I can blow the biturbo apart and start fixing all the "some day" projects. I have some ideas on how I can fix the problems with the connectors and whatnot. Even though I work in a painfully heavily regulated industry (medical) that saps most creativity out of engineering, I can still find solutions to poo poo outside of that sphere... I was thinking basically wire directly to the board, like some already are, and use a Molex or Metri-Pak or the like connector. Also, my Cutlass has Autometer mechanical oil pressure and coolant temp gauges.   So far, neither has peed the car, the oil pressure one tried when I installed it. At least I don't have an ammeter.
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May 8, 2019 00:14
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I spent way too much putting an electric Stewart Warner oil pressure gauge in Bernice and it sucks. It says right in the instructions that it has to warm up before giving a reading. On an oil pressure gauge, the one where immediate and accurate information is most necessary. That and I don't think it's correct at all since it never moves. I'm going back to a 30 dollar parts store danger of hot oil spraying on my balls mechanical one next time I work on it, it's worth the risk. There probably isn't too many good 283 blocks left and my balls will heal.
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May 8, 2019 01:02
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All electric ones aren't that expensive these days...
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May 8, 2019 01:09
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It wasn't super expensive, I think like 50 for the gauge and 60-70 for the sender but it's failure to perform was just a waste of money.
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May 8, 2019 01:18
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I’m sorry, you had to pay extra for the sender? Sounds like maybe Stewart Warner is your problem. Electric oil pressure gauges don’t need to “warm up@, ever, in my experience. The Autometer in my RX-7 always worked instantly. The factory gauges in pretty much everything are electric. It’s not a new technology. It’s well understood. I only put Autometer in my RX-7 because the ‘79 and ‘80 models didn’t have a factory oil pressure or voltmeter. (Technically it does have a voltmeter, but only when the engine isn’t running, or there is a voltage issue. It switches the tach to display volts!)
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May 8, 2019 17:55
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Yea I know for sure Stewart Warner is the problem, I never would have bought it if I knew it needed to "warm up" or that it wouldnt function at all as far as I know. The gauge and sender were sold separately which isnt that odd I dont think. Some of the VDOs Ive bought I got the sensor separately that fit the threads of whatever I was putting them into so it didnt look stupid with adapters. Just gonna stick with VDO and Autometer anyway. Im more interested in whats going on behind the dash in the biturbo anyway, sounds like its gonna trounce all of our gauge stories. May cost Chris his sanity but none of us would be here if doing dumb poo poo wasnt fun.
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May 8, 2019 19:20
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Yeah, my cheapo Autometer oil pressure gauge in the C10 reads instantly.
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May 8, 2019 21:21
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shy boy from chess club posted:I spent way too much putting an electric Stewart Warner oil pressure gauge in Bernice and it sucks. It says right in the instructions that it has to warm up before giving a reading. On an oil pressure gauge, the one where immediate and accurate information is most necessary. That and I don't think it's correct at all since it never moves. I'm going back to a 30 dollar parts store danger of hot oil spraying on my balls mechanical one next time I work on it, it's worth the risk. There probably isn't too many good 283 blocks left and my balls will heal. Sounds like you got a temp gauge sender.
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May 9, 2019 02:44
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Reinstalling a freshly-rebuilt SBC into a vehicle with a mechanical oil gauge and forgetting to hook up the sender tube is a right of passage. Few things give such a spectacular show indicating you hosed up and attention to detail is important while still being relatively harmless and easy to clean up.
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May 9, 2019 05:10
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I dunno, having the sender tube pop out of a gauge mounted to the bottom of the dash is always a lot of fun. Especially if you're wearing shorts.
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May 9, 2019 05:45
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I've been doing a bunch of other stuff in the shop, mowing the lawn, working on other non-interesting projects, etc. I'm sorta blocked by not having registration, I'm blocked on the mercedes by having to order injector nozzles from Germany, I'm blocked on doing toyota maintenance because i wanna have the mercedes all fixed and running well before I take toyota apart... I am, however, wildly uninterested in oil pressure gauges. This post contains some really  wiring content. Proceed only if you have a strong stomach.First, let's look at some factory wiring fuckery.  Everything about this is wrong and makes me want to cry. Beyond that, the car uses glass festoon fuses, the ceramic german fuses, and two sizes of blade fuse. I should make a spare fuse kit... Let's move on to PO wiring fuckery. The radio, why is it mounted like this? Does the hole not support a full depth radio? It can't have been easy to shift into R, 2, or 4. It also had a CD stuck in the drive that refused to eject. My money was on lovely Italian music.  I pulled the radio out to find this. It's an itallian car so I'll use an itallian word to describe what I see. Spaghetti.  With the wires for the speaker re-routed to go under the mounting cradle and the bulk of the poo poo removed, the radio (more on that later) actualy fits all the way in the hole. The car immediately looks like homeless.  Ok so what actually is this piece of poo poo radio.  That's right, a pyle of poo poo plus. From 2006 no less, as stated by a tag on the other side. I had no idea car radios had to comply with DHHS. Don't neglect your radio or the government will take it from you.  I have seen car radios with string and knob setups like this... out of shitboxes in the 70's. Shitboxes before that actually had really clever mechanical systems that let you save presets. You could tune the dial to a frequency, pull the button out, and then push it back in, then if you pushed it the radio would go to that frequency. I digress, but it's a cool system. (i actually have one such radio in a box somewhere, maybe I'll showcase it).  It has the most hilarious brand capacitors I've ever seen.  I sorta wish I did a video tear down of this thing, it was so bad I just kept swearing at it. Anyway, pile of rubble all went in the trash.  Oh yea, I'm sorry if anyone likes these guys....  Ok, on to other bullshit. The inner headlights are actually 100 watt driving lights which is kinda awesome. One of them didn't work. I pulled the light bulb out (and broke it in the process), but it turned out that the bulb wasn't the issue. So now I have to buy a new one, anyway, this is (probably) the issue. I haven't actually tested that disaster with a voltmeter yet because it's sorta behind the battery with no access. I'll have to pull the battery out and probably replace several inches of wire.  We all know that wire nuts are bad in cars, however the headlights on the other side are wired like this and they still work just fine.  In conclusion: Wire nuts are better than stripping half an inch of casing off the a wire and then twisting another wire around it.
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May 10, 2019 01:49
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Good loving lord.
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May 10, 2019 05:25
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I take it back, I dont want to see whats behind the gauges, I dont get enough sleep as it is.
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May 10, 2019 12:20
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I wanna see what's behind the gauges
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May 10, 2019 15:38
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