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Wooper
Oct 16, 2006

Champion draGoon horse slayer. Making Lancers weep for their horsies since 2011. Viva Dickbutt.


make uboat but it's total war and you run a whole fleet of submarines and you zoom into the action when things are actually happening

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Popete
Oct 6, 2009

This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs



Grimey Drawer

ZombieLenin posted:

This is what I hate about hardcore u-boat/Second World War sub games. I am sorry, doing trigonometry is not that fun; had I been a U-Boat commander I would have delegated the course and speed calculations to a subordinate.

This is probably why I find all of the realism mods for Cold Waters engaging, but none of the Silent Hunter III realism mods.

You don't actually have to do any calculations in UBOAT, you enter in observations to the computer and it spits out a solution. The steps are:

1. Identify the ship in your book
2. Measure the ships height using the stadimeter (this involves shifting a ghost image of the ships waterline to it's mast height)
3. Measure the ships speed by letting it's length cross your fixed binocular position using a stop watch (this is all handled for you, just hit start/stop at the right time)
4. Measure or guesstimate the ships bow angle relative to your ship, usually you want this as close to 90 degrees as possible and most of the time I just make a rough guess.
5. Select your torpedoes speed/depth/spread angle and how many you wish to launch, then hit the big red launch button.

You can repeat steps 2-4 as you get closer to the ship to continue to improve your solution. Once you do it a few times it's pretty intuitive. It gets trickier when you're doing snap shots or targets are maneuvering such as a convoy zig-zagging. It's fun to setup multiple solutions forward and to your rear and try to time all your torpedoes hitting at the same time.

Mode 7
Jul 28, 2007



What's a good baby's first subsim for people like me who think subs are cool but don't know a hell of a lot about them other than that?

Although thinking about it, weirdly I remember that 688 Attack Sub was one of the first DOS games I ever played on my Dad's PC, despite being too young to grasp any of it at the time.

mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





MrYenko posted:

There’s also DCS: Type VII

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1530920/Crush_Depth_UBoat_Simulator/

No comment on whether it’s worth a drat though, $50 is pretty steep for what’s clearly very early access.

Scrolling, scrolling, "dev update: "We are exploring the possibility of an engine switch." Well that's a death knell right there.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Uboat but instead I get to play in an alternate universe and also get to play, in no particular order:

-Russian Submarines
-Japanese Submarines
-British Submarines
-Italian Submarines
-Anything except loving US and German Submarines
-Seriously gently caress off with all the German and US Submarines

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Countries with Submarines at some point in WW2 according to Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1992 Ed.

-Great Britain
-Japan
-France
-Italy
-Soviet Union
-Poland
-Estonia
-Latvia
-Yugoslavia
-Romania
-Finland
-Sweden
-Norway
-Denmark
-Netherlands
-Portugal
-Spain
-Greece
-Turkey
-Siam
-Brazil
-Argentina
-Chile
-Peru

Sure some of them were older models or just copies or ex-subs from other nations but christ almighty give me SOME level of variety. Edit: And some were potentially discarded/scuttled (just) prior to WW2 but I'm tired of the US/German only naval experience.

Hypnobeard
Sep 15, 2004

Obey the Beard





Jobbo_Fett posted:

Countries with Submarines at some point in WW2 according to Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1992 Ed.

-Great Britain
-Japan
-France
-Italy
-Soviet Union
-Poland
-Estonia
-Latvia
-Yugoslavia
-Romania
-Finland
-Sweden
-Norway
-Denmark
-Netherlands
-Portugal
-Spain
-Greece
-Turkey
-Siam
-Brazil
-Argentina
-Chile
-Peru

Sure some of them were older models or just copies or ex-subs from other nations but christ almighty give me SOME level of variety. Edit: And some were potentially discarded/scuttled (just) prior to WW2 but I'm tired of the US/German only naval experience.

Unfortunately there are a lot more Wehraboos and 'murica-damnit! types. :(

habituallyred
Feb 6, 2015


Jobbo_Fett posted:

Countries with Submarines at some point in WW2 according to Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1992 Ed.

-Great Britain
-Japan
-France
-Italy
-Soviet Union
-Poland
-Estonia
-Latvia
-Yugoslavia
-Romania
-Finland
-Sweden
-Norway
-Denmark
-Netherlands
-Portugal
-Spain
-Greece
-Turkey
-Siam
-Brazil
-Argentina
-Chile
-Peru

Sure some of them were older models or just copies or ex-subs from other nations but christ almighty give me SOME level of variety. Edit: And some were potentially discarded/scuttled (just) prior to WW2 but I'm tired of the US/German only naval experience.

Admit it: you want a Surcouf simulator.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

habituallyred posted:

Admit it: you want a Surcouf simulator.

You bet your loving rear end I do :france::quebec:

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Give me an I-400 where I launch the Aichi M6A and then fly that around.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry



Pirate Radar
Apr 18, 2008

You're not my Ruthie!
You're not my Debbie!
You're not my Sherry!


I was going to say “didn’t they make a Silent Hunter where you can be Japan” but no, they literally added the Pacific U-boats to SH4 instead of letting you play as a Japanese submarine.

Popete
Oct 6, 2009

This will make sure you don't suggest to the KDz
That he should grow greens instead of crushing on MCs



Grimey Drawer

Mode 7 posted:

What's a good baby's first subsim for people like me who think subs are cool but don't know a hell of a lot about them other than that?

Although thinking about it, weirdly I remember that 688 Attack Sub was one of the first DOS games I ever played on my Dad's PC, despite being too young to grasp any of it at the time.

If you want WW2 I would say UBOAT, it has a lot of options to customize how complex it is and they've made strides in making it more user friendly.

If you want more modern, Cold Waters. It's one of my favourite games, really great atmosphere and it's pretty easy to pick up as a new player.

Freedom Trails
Feb 19, 2005

THE DARK SIDE OF SCIENCE BREEDS A WEAPON OF WAR


Buglord

I want a Great War u-boat sim where they present this to you as your command screen with absolutely no explanation provided. I'd like it in color though; if this requires an engine switch, I'll wait.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



I want an U-boat toilet simulator.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

There was a WWI U-boat sim published by Strategy First back in the early aughts which was interesting mostly because you don't have a gyro-angle on your torps so every shot has to be plotted to go straight-on but also the visibility and detection mechanics were kinda borked and it was way too easy to get spotted. Too bad.

I thought the very first Silent Hunter was a really good sub-sim as far as being simple enough to get into as a newbie while also having modern enough graphics and interface to be playable comfortably, but unfortunately it's not readily available.

Silent Service 2 is on Steam. The DOS graphics and the keyboard-only experience takes some getting used to, but that kept me entertained for many a long night when I only had a lousy old work laptop to play on.

I haven't played UBOAT so I can't comment, and from what Popete is posting it might be better, but Silent Hunter 4 is a pretty good intro to the genre - with all of the AI assist turned on, targeting a torp is just point-and-shoot, but you can still miss if the angle is too bad or you get spotted on the way in, but SH4 also mostly does away with the crew management of SH3 that you'd otherwise have to mod out.

Xenolalia
Feb 17, 2016


Has anyone ever tried doing a goon v goon combat mission game where info is staggered, ie the higher rank of the player determines tbe speed/type of intel they get? I feel like the exact parameters would be tough to nail down but i think there's a really compelling experience that could be created from that.

Mans
Sep 14, 2011

We have the dimension of an empire.


Jobbo_Fett posted:

Uboat but instead I get to play in an alternate universe and also get to play, in no particular order:

-Russian Submarines
-Japanese Submarines
-British Submarines
-Italian Submarines
-Anything except loving US and German Submarines
-Seriously gently caress off with all the German and US Submarines
The Pharnakes LP has taught me that Dutch submarines were incredibly stubborn and are driven purely by revenge. I'd love to play with one.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




German submarines just have the best campaign. Definitely the nation to focus on for submarine warfare for obvious reasons. Japanese ones might be very interesting though, weren't their torps insane?

I’d be more into other nations submarines if it were WW1.

Yooper
Apr 30, 2012



Xenolalia posted:

Has anyone ever tried doing a goon v goon combat mission game where info is staggered, ie the higher rank of the player determines tbe speed/type of intel they get? I feel like the exact parameters would be tough to nail down but i think there's a really compelling experience that could be created from that.

I looked at doing a version of this where each turn would be shown from the different commanders viewpoints, and only that. So each platoon would have a vid link, each company would see from the CO area, etc. Then all communication would have to occur in-thread or Discord. But I became concerned that the cinematic aspect would be lost (for the commanders) and it might become tedious. I dunno, I still think it has potential as an idea. To be done right you'd need a puckster to handle communications and add delay and such.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

HerpicleOmnicron5 posted:

German submarines just have the best campaign. Definitely the nation to focus on for submarine warfare for obvious reasons. Japanese ones might be very interesting though, weren't their torps insane?

I’d be more into other nations submarines if it were WW1.

The IJN subs had some excellent torpedoes - incredible range and very reliable. The main downside was that their subs IIRC were rather large - bigger than German Type IXs and US fleet boats, and consequently couldn't dive as quickly.

And also that their doctrine discouraged them from preying on merchant traffic. I don't know how you might handle that in a game.

Panzeh
Nov 27, 2006

This is why we have orders, general.



There's always seaplane launching subs.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

gradenko_2000 posted:

The IJN subs had some excellent torpedoes - incredible range and very reliable. The main downside was that their subs IIRC were rather large - bigger than German Type IXs and US fleet boats, and consequently couldn't dive as quickly.

And also that their doctrine discouraged them from preying on merchant traffic. I don't know how you might handle that in a game.

You make it non-historical. Bam, non-factor.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Like I don't get why its an issue to worry about tactical doctrine and what-have-you when my German sub floats up and down the Baltic shooting flak rounds into Sweden while I torpedo whales and piss off the Kaiser.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

I didn't mean to imply that "I don't care what the doctrine was, sink whatever you want" couldn't be a valid answer.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



Jobbo_Fett posted:

You make it non-historical. Bam, non-factor.

No you silly, you give them historically appropriate missions, like firebombing Oregon. Sinking merchants has been done to death anyway.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


I'd just give the player more points/rewards for going after doctrinally-appropriate targets.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Nenonen posted:

No you silly, you give them historically appropriate missions, like firebombing Oregon. Sinking merchants has been done to death anyway.

Watch my stream as I meticulously study weather patterns and wind charts so that I can send three balloons full of magnesium shavings (or was it something else?) and then fly the balloon in a mini-game where you dodge angry seagulls and cold-air currents.

Gort posted:

I'd just give the player more points/rewards for going after doctrinally-appropriate targets.

And now we've just solved the problem for any devs out there in under 3 hours. Good work, team, early lunch for everyone!

Bold Robot
Jan 6, 2009

Be brave.



Throwing another review of the latest UBOAT update on the pile: it is good now. A lot of content has been added to the campaign layer, so your patrols feel more varied and unpredictable. I appreciate all of the UI and QOL tweaks that were made; crew management is a lot less of a pain in the rear end now. I haven't encountered any bugs. There are still some annoying nits here and there - would it kill them to let me automate or schedule the color of the lights? - but overall it's a fun experience.

SkySteak
Sep 9, 2010


I'm ashamed to admit that legitimately one of the reasons I'm cautious about touching Silent Hunter 4, is that either by vanilla or mods, I have to deal with Mark 14 Torpedoes.

gradenko_2000
Oct 5, 2010



Lipstick Apathy

SkySteak posted:

I'm ashamed to admit that legitimately one of the reasons I'm cautious about touching Silent Hunter 4, is that either by vanilla or mods, I have to deal with Mark 14 Torpedoes.

you can start a game in 1943/1944, or just turn off realistic torp duds

Abongination
Aug 18, 2010

Life, it's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come.


Pillbug

Wolfpack is good but the dev time is getting out of hand. The fact you can have multiple people playing as different subs in a wolfpack, attacking the same target is awesome.

UBOAT I'm still iffy on, I keep trying to go back and despite changes it feels like more of the same.

If you have VR my latest guilty sub pleasure has been IronWolf VR coop with a group of friends. Simplified compared to Wolfpack but has charm and stuff for everyone to do like power management and such.

HerpicleOmnicron5
May 31, 2013

How did this smug dummkopf ever make general?




Nenonen posted:

No you silly, you give them historically appropriate missions, like firebombing Oregon. Sinking merchants has been done to death anyway.

Honestly, this is way better than "patrol grid square" for the umpteenth time

ZombieLenin
Sep 6, 2009

All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people.

-Vladimir Lenin

gradenko_2000 posted:

The IJN subs had some excellent torpedoes - incredible range and very reliable. The main downside was that their subs IIRC were rather large - bigger than German Type IXs and US fleet boats, and consequently couldn't dive as quickly.

And also that their doctrine discouraged them from preying on merchant traffic. I don't know how you might handle that in a game.

Right, and I think you have hit on exactly why Silent Hunter 4 added German Pacific U-boats rather than IJN submarines.

With one short lived exception where the IJN and Kriegsmarine conducted a joint operation in the Indian Ocean, IJN submarine doctrine had IJN submarines working in concert with surface fleets, or one off missions targeting land installations and warships; all while IJN commanders were highly discouraged from ‘wasting’ torpedos on merchants.

Honestly, this sort of thing is why you never see games featuring British, French, or Russian subs either. You end up with Second World War sub sims featuring exclusively German and American submarines precisely because these were the only two countries that engaged in tonnage wars with wide scale unrestricted use of submarines.

To do the sub branches of other navies justice you have to make a much more complicated game, with either far fewer merchant targets, or where a player has to somehow operate in concert with AI surface fleets, target only warships, or spend 2/3rds of the game laying mines.

Either that or you have to abandon any sense of historical accuracy and come up with a compelling alternative history that will entice enough of your typical Second World War sub sim audience into buying your game.

Nenonen
Oct 22, 2009



I-25's missions seem look like they would make a great campaign. Destroy a baseball field, drop firebombs, sink a few tankers and one (unknown to you) Soviet sub...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_submarine_I-25

Pirate Radar
Apr 18, 2008

You're not my Ruthie!
You're not my Debbie!
You're not my Sherry!


ZombieLenin posted:

Either that or you have to abandon any sense of historical accuracy and come up with a compelling alternative history that will entice enough of your typical Second World War sub sim audience into buying your game.

Aceilent Huntcombater.

Jobbo_Fett
Mar 7, 2014

It would be a sad error in judgement to mistake me for a corpse.


Clapping Larry

Grave Depths

There, figured out your game's name.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


SkySteak posted:

I'm ashamed to admit that legitimately one of the reasons I'm cautious about touching Silent Hunter 4, is that either by vanilla or mods, I have to deal with Mark 14 Torpedoes.

Easy, just always fire your fish at a 70 degree angle to the target, no problem

unless it circles back

Randomcheese3
Sep 6, 2011

"It's like no cheese I've ever tasted."

ZombieLenin posted:


Honestly, this sort of thing is why you never see games featuring British, French, or Russian subs either. You end up with Second World War sub sims featuring exclusively German and American submarines precisely because these were the only two countries that engaged in tonnage wars with wide scale unrestricted use of submarines.

To do the sub branches of other navies justice you have to make a much more complicated game, with either far fewer merchant targets, or where a player has to somehow operate in concert with AI surface fleets, target only warships, or spend 2/3rds of the game laying mines.


This isn't quite true for the British, who did carry out a fairly major tonnage war with their subs in the Mediterranean. It wasn't on the same scale as the American or German ones, sure, but it could still be represented well, especially since it offers options for secondary tasks like landing SOE saboteurs or shelling coastal targets. They also participated in the Pacific sub campaign, as did the Dutch who are rarely represented either.

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mllaneza
Apr 28, 2007


Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1993-1952





Xenolalia posted:

Has anyone ever tried doing a goon v goon combat mission game where info is staggered, ie the higher rank of the player determines tbe speed/type of intel they get? I feel like the exact parameters would be tough to nail down but i think there's a really compelling experience that could be created from that.

Grey Hunter did that with his WW1 corps-level games. Those were amazing, I'm really glad I got in the second one (until I lost my entire brigade). In both games the opposing commands each badly misinterpreted enemy intentions and strengths. Divisional commanders would "interpret" orders from corps, and the brigade commanders all thought they were always about to be horribly killed [1] and deployed appropriately. This led to exactly the kind of command and control confusion that actually happened when forces that size, with such terrible communications, maneuvered against each other. They could be written up and snuck into a real history of 1914 and readers would be hard pressed to spot the fake battle. The format would also be excellent for training actual military officers on why we have radios now.


[1] To be fair, the brigade commanders were usually right.

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