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Stoner Sloth

Goons Are Great posted:

Took me a while to catch up here, but I really like thisw details! Since I have some academical history with biology this stuff naturally attracts me and reading how this stuff works in detail is so fascinating.

brb injecting myself tons of snake venom to prepare for my next australia visit

Excellent - the next post should be enjoyable too then friend :)

lol this reminds me of the dumbest thing I've read about venoms recently - there's a product on the market that allegedly uses snake venom to cure baldness. It is literally called Snake Oiltm :eng99:







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

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Stoner Sloth posted:

Excellent - the next post should be enjoyable too then friend :)

lol this reminds me of the dumbest thing I've read about venoms recently - there's a product on the market that allegedly uses snake venom to cure baldness. It is literally called Snake Oiltm :eng99:

Those who don't learn from history . . .


Thanks to Manifisto for the sig!

Stoner Sloth

gonna try to get another post up this weekend - we'll be taking a closer look at how venoms and poisons move into and through the body (as opposed to just individual cells) AND if I get the time we'll look at how exactly neurotoxins work!!

Stay tuned fellow yobbers and hope y'all are having a good weekend!







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

Stoner Sloth

Different methods of toxins making an entrance to the body

Okay so last time we looked at the huge effect that solubility of a toxin has on how it interacts at the cellular level, now let's take a step back so we can see how this plays out in terms of a whole organism.

Now as was mentioned earlier for a toxic chemical to be harmful it must first travel through the body to specific (or even not that specific) target sites. Regardless of how the chemical reaches an animal, whether it's ingested, inhaled or enters through the skin all chemical-biological interactions begin with moving across an epithelial layer. The skin is the most obvious example of a layer of epithelial cells since it's clearly visible and it's here that we'll start.


Skin

Skin, at least in mammals, acts as a barrier between the external environment and our personal, internal one. The outermost layer of skin is made up of dead cells while the underlying dermal layer is constantly dividing and producing new cells that die, dehydrate and then keratinize. The process of keratinization involves the buildup of keratin in the epithelial cell layer. Keratin is a fibrous protein found not only in skin but in nails, hooves, hair and even rhino horn. Bundles of keratin are quite tough clearly and, equally importantly for our purposes, they are insoluble in water. Consequently you can, for the most part, consider the keratinized outer layer of your skin to be a watertight boundary between you and the outside world.

Dead cells also have no active transport proteins associated with them; therefore water soluble compounds cannot make it through since they rely on this method of transit. Fat(lipid) soluble compounds are another story entirely. Dead cells still contain lipids that were in the cell when it was living and as a result fat soluble compounds do absorb into the dead cell layer.

The capacity of the skin to absorb lipid soluble chemicals can be both a blessing and a curse depending on the context - for example transdermal medicated adhesive patches take advantage of this capability of the skin to absorb lipophilic compounds in order to administer chemicals such as scopolamine, an anti-sea sickness drug, or nicotine for those attempting to quit smoking.

Unfortunately it also means that substances like urushiol, the active ingredient in poison ivy, oak and sumac, can also take advantage of the skins capacity to absorb small, lipophilic chemicals to cause considerable pain and irritation. Worse still some creatures have even evolved to deliver poison directly through this path which can have much more severe results - poison dart frogs of the family Dendrobatidae are the most notorious example of this. Although these usually brightly coloured creatures are amazing to look at;





they also have more sinister side. They have developed the ability to absorb a range of small, lipophilic chemicals from the environment such as batrachotoxin, epibatidine, histrionicotoxin , allopumiliotoxin 267A and pumiliotoxin 251D and then exude them from their skin as a chemical defense system. All up there are 28 distinct structural classes of alkaloid toxins known to be absorbed in species of these frogs. Many of these are exceedingly toxic - batrachotoxin in particular is made use of by the golden poison dart frog, Phyllobates terribilis, the most toxic of poison frogs.



Batrachotoxin is one of the most deadly of alkaloid poisons - the LD50 for subcutaneous injection in mice is a mere 2 micrograms (millionths of a gram) per kilogram! It is also an extremely fast acting neurotoxin. It's no wonder that the toxic secretions of these frogs were cleverly used by indigenous Amerindians to poison the tips of blowdarts used for hunting and warfare given that a single dart can almost instantly cause paralysis in large monkeys or birds. Of course great care had to be taken when harvesting this poison - careless would-be hunters could easily find themselves succumbing to the very venom they seek to use!

As a final note the skin is obviously a vulnerable barrier to venomous animals in particular - by using mechanical methods to puncture the skin such toxins receive a much more efficient way of crossing the epithelial barrier than through sheer chemistry. This is particularly important to venomous animals since as noted earlier most venoms are peptides and proteins and are water soluble.

The Lung

Lungs are fundamentally different from the outer skin in the sense that its cells are all very much alive but the two do share an important characteristic - there is no protein mediated transport of compounds from the air sac or alveoli into the lung. Beyond that though the similiarties between these two epithelial layers pretty much comes to an end.

The lung represents a volume of space across which oxygen and carbon dioxide diffuse - in an amphibian such as a frog, the lung is configured like a small bunch of grapes with a few quite large air sacs, a relatively small total surface area (combined surface area of all the 'grapes' in the bunch) and a relatively large diffusion distance from the centre of the air sac to the animals blood.

In contrast to this a mammalian lung of similar volume (say a small rat in comparison to a large bullfrog or toad), the alveoli are much smaller and more numerous. The rat also has a much higher metabolic rate which of course necessitates faster diffusion of oxygen into the blood. This partially accomplished by decreasing the diffusion distance (smaller alveoli means less diffusion distance) and by increasing surface area. Consequently oxygen is delivered from the air to the blood and carbon dioxide is removed from the blood to the alveoli much more quickly and efficiently in the rat relative to the frog.

It's not just simple gases, such as oxygen and carbon dioxide, though that diffuse across the lung epitheleum - vapours can also be absorbed (as most yobbers can probably attest to). A vapour is the gas phase of a substance as it evaporates or volatizes from a liquid (think about the vapours rising from a small drop of perfume for example), and all chemicals do not generate vapours to the same degree. Water soluble compounds do not volatilize (create vapours) and remain stubbornly dissolved in water. Even if the water completely evaporates these compounds are unlikely to enter the atmosphere but will instead be left behind as a solid residue, often in the form of salts.

Consequently, carrier proteins for the transport of water-soluble compounds are not found within the lung as those compounds rarely present themselves to the lung in any appreciable concentration.

What about the more volatile organic compounds? Even for these compounds there aer differences in degree to which they are absorbable and the determing factor is the compound's blood:gas partition coefficient. To understand how this blood:gas partition coeffficient governs absorption consider a vapour enclosed in a cocktail shaker with a bit of water. After this 'cocktail' is shaken the vapour can partition either into the water or can primarily remain in the atmosphere within the shaker. In this case, chemicals that remain in the shaker's atmosphere have low blood:gas partition coefficient, whereas chemicals found predominantly in the liquid have high values for the coefficient.

These tendencies dramatically influence the capacity for absorption because low values of the blood:gas coefficient are indicative of low rates of absorption, whereas higher coefficient values predict much higher rates of absorption across the lung epithelium.

Gills are an interesting further twist on respiratory organs. Unlike the lung, the fish gill interacts with the water allowing for the uptake of dissolved oxygen from the water and release of carbon dioxide from the blood directly into the water. In addition to this the direct association between the gill and the water allows for transport of water-soluble compounds. As such the fish gill, unlike the mammalian lung, is enriched with proteins that allow for the transport of water-soluble compounds, specifically inorganic ions such as sodium, calcium and potassium. The fish gill is not just a respiratory organ (an organ used to exchange oxygen and carbon dioxide with the environment), but is also an ionoregulatory structure like the mammalian kidney - working to maintain appropriate concentrations of key elemental ions within the blood.


The Digestive Tract

While chemical traffic across the skin is for the most part minor, and the traffic across the lung is restricted to a few highly specific chemical classes, chemical traffic accross the epithelial layer of the digestive tract is rapid and continuous. The primary purpose of the gastrointestinal epithelium is to absorb food on a molecular level. Therefore, the intestinal epitehlial membrane is completely festooned wtih proteins that function to move water-soluble compounds out of the intestinal tract and into the blood where such chemicals can be transported to the liver.

The transport of lipids across the intestinal epithelium, which might be expected to be simple given the way things have gone so far, is actually quite complicated. When consumed lipids - fats and oils - tend to mix together in the stomach and intestine to form large globules rather than remaining isolated as individual chemicals. These larger globules of fat have to be broken down into smaller droplets in a process of emulisifcation. Emulsification occurs in the digestive tract through the action of bile salts and acids that reduce the surface tension of the lipid globule, causing it to thereby break into smaller globules known as micelles. These small aggregates of fat and oil can then migrate across the digestive epithelium membrane to ultimately reach the blood.

The chemical thoroughfare across the digestive system, vital to bring food molecules into the body, is unfortunately also well suited to the absorption of toxic compounds. Proteins designed to trasnport water-soluble food molecules can also mistakenly transport water-soluble toxic compounds. Lipid-soluble compounds generally become incpororated into the large fat droplets within the intestine and are also proportioned out into the micelles as they form. Along with the beneficial fats and oils within the micelle so necessary to our survival, lipophilic contaminants can ride the micelles across the epithelial membrane and into the blood.

It's also worth noting here that many proteins and peptides will not survive a trip through the stomach - for this reason many venoms are technically safe to consume (though you shouldn't since a small cut in the mouth or esophagus could mean they have an alternate route of entry). This is because the acidity of the gut is designed to break most proteins down into amino acids for easier absortion and the fact that a protein designed to operate under such acidic conditions probably wouldn't function well in the more pH neutral environs of the vascular system.


In the Blood

Regardless of how it gets there, whether through direct injection, skin contact, inhalation or ingestion, once a chemical has gotten inside the body it cruises through the blood vessels towards its ultimate sit of action - it's target tissue. How chemicals travel through the vascular system depends upon a number of factors, including of course the chemical's solubility. Water-soluble compounds dissolve intot he blood plasma and ride the flow, for the most part, in a free and unbound form. Lipid-soluble compounds, however, bind to proteins and an equlibrium develops betwen a small pool of free compound in the blood and a much larger pool of bound compound.

This is important, as the free form is the biologically active one, being able to diffuse from the blood to the target receptor. However as the free form of the compound diffuses from the blood into the extracellular fluid and the waiting target cell, the equilibrium shifts and more of the bound form is freed. The bound form of the compound acts like a kind of time-release capsule, slowly releasing free and biologically active compounds into the blood where they can diffuse across the nearby capillary epithelium.

While a toxic compound may intially enter the body through a variety of different means, it's target is often in distant tissues and to get there thecompound will travel within the bloodstream. It's movement into the blood from the epithelial cells where absorption took place will be consistent with the process by which it made its way into the epithelial layers. For fat-soluble compounds, entry into the blood will not be an issue - they will not be barred by the cells making up the blood vessels. Water-soluble compounds, on the other hand, may have to use carrier proteins to shuttle them across cell membranes.

A compounds ability to move from tissues into the blood is not solely determined by its own chemical attributes, for the blood vessels themselves will either help or hinder this exchange. Blood capillaries within the brain adhere tightly together so that no transport can occur without the compound being directed through the cells of the capillary network. Consequently, water-soluble molecules can only enter the brain through the cells that make up the blood-brain barrier.

In contrast to this the capillary network of the liver is less densely organized with holes so that bulk fluid can flow from the blood into the liver tissue and back again easily. The system allows for water-soluble food molecules (such as sugars) to enter the blood readily but it also allows for water-soluble toxic molecules to follow the same route.

Once a compound enters the blood, its residence within the bloodstream depends upon its solubility. In water-soluble compounds, the chemicals remain dissolved in the aqeous blood and are trapped until they are allowed to exit via channels or gates or through large holes or fenestrations such as those that occur in the liver of kidney. Water-soluble compounds are ushered around the bloodstream, then, in a very controlled fashion in general. On the other hand lipid-soluble compounds enter, and often exit, the bloodstream in an uncontrolled fashion.

On a cellular level, our bodies wage an energetic, ongoing battle between control and chaos and uncontrolled lipophilic compounds present a direct confrontation to our commmand over our internal environment. Fortunately, fat-soluble compounds are not maintained in their freestylin, go-anywhere-they-drat-well-please form while in the blood but are instead harnessed to large and charged proteins. This binding creates a charged supermolecule or protein-toxic compound conjugate that is essentially polar and therefore locked into place within the blood. For many toxic compounds (and nonpolar, nontoxics alike such as sex steriods), a large pool of these conjugates are in equlibrium with the much smaller pool of free nonpolar compounds. As the free compound dissociates from the plasma protein it resumes its more nomadic form and can easily diffuse across the cell membranes of the capillary beds, leaving the bloodstream. Therefore the conjugated compound in the blood slowly liberates free compounds that can diffuse and become available at the waiting target receptors where toxic compound can cause adverse impacts.


Sequestration

From the blood, the chemical compound can migrate to cell membranes and bind to the target molecules on the cell surface or it can enter the cell and bind to the target molecules within them. When a compound enteres a target cell, it can follow a number of different routes, with various consequences beyond the obvious one of damaging the cell. Some compounds can become sequestered - that is embedded in the body in a stored form, remaining relatively begning. For example, water-soluble metal ions can become incorporated into the bone (this is not entirely a good thing - think about radioactive strontium 90 which the body treats as calcium) whereas lipophilic compounds can become incorporated, understandably enough, into the fat deposits.

Compounds that are sequestered can remain in tissue depostions for life, or they can be removed from the body in an inert form (think arsenic or organic mercury compounds being excreted into hair or DDT leaving the body through breast milk), or they can be liberated back into the bloodstream (as several cases of pesticide poisoning have shown this can happen in toxic amounts when a person loses weight due to say an illness and the sequestered pesticide is released from adipose tissue as a result). Regardless of the specific pathway along which chemicals travel or their level of toxicity, chemicals obey the rules of diffusion and are carried toward their designated target tissues accordingly.



Okay that's a good place to stop this post, for my next one there's been a slight change of plans but it will work out better I feel - next I'm going to discuss some of the body's defense mechanisms against toxic substances. After that I'll move on to how exactly neurotoxins function, promise! Hope you enjoyed and I'll be back to post more very soon!

e: and as always don't be shy to ask questions if you have them!

Stoner Sloth fucked around with this message at 13:29 on May 20, 2019







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

Manifisto


wow, more great information. I feel like I'm getting a master's course in poisoning, which is bad news for my enemies.


ty nesamdoom!

Stoner Sloth

Manifisto posted:

wow, more great information. I feel like I'm getting a master's course in poisoning, which is bad news for my enemies.

drat enemies, I hate those guys! :oldmanyellsatclouds:

Don't get too cocky is my advice though - most of this so far is only obliquely usable for nefarious porpoises and frankly the problem with most toxins (and toxicants for that matter) is that they're highly traceable in these new fangled and modern times. That and dosage makes all the difference - especially in the case of poisons - too much can induce emesis (vomiting) and actually be less effective than a subtler dose.

Still you can probably see why those with sophisticated knowledge (or even relatively primitive knowledge going further back) were rightfully feared throughout history when the general understanding was low and the methods of detection inadequate - especially as the results of exposure to toxic substances can be horrifying particularly with chronic poisonings like arsenic, organic mercury compounds or thallium. Let alone use of venomous animals which have evolved in an arms race of toxicity vs resistance over millions of years.

Oh and also poisoning animals/people is ethically dubious or so I'm told? :shrug:

e: also forgot to lead with the fact that I'm glad you're enjoying my weird posts!! I'm happy to keep this up for as long as folks are interested cause it's such a vast topic and touches on that really interesting area of where biology meets chemistry and/or physics - ties in to how life stems from nonlife in many ways :)

e2: didn't like the way that this post could be read in a way that seemed to encourage bad things, edited to avoid my fierce levels of stupid causing problems.

Stoner Sloth fucked around with this message at 01:47 on May 7, 2019







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

take the moon

by sebmojo
am I correct in assuming that if a frog is any weird colour it should def not be touched? asking for a friend who also wants to know if licking counts

ToxicSlurpee

-=SEND HELP=-


Hello thread, how are you doing?

Just checking because I am a toxin and I exist.

I'm sewage flavored.

Stoner Sloth

take the moon posted:

am I correct in assuming that if a frog is any weird colour it should def not be touched? asking for a friend who also wants to know if licking counts

Probably - but mostly cause touching frogs can give them skin infections and stress them out.

These frogs are pretty hard to find in the wild because they live in Central and South American rainforests - outside of the wild they're not to hard to find as they've long been a favourite of hobbyists keeping them. However because they only get their poison from their natural diet, those in captivity aren't dangerous.

Bright colour can certainly be a warning of toxicity in the animal world but it's not a terribly reliable one - for a start usually you get harmless mimics of toxic species appearing but also sometimes toxic mimics. And of course many toxic species value camoflage over gaudy advertising.

Toads would be safer bet for licking... but I wouldn't recommend that either since bufotoxins can be pretty drat harsh on your internal organs if you find a particularly toxic toad.

Stick to smonking the beeper is my considered advice!

PS As with all my advice keep in mind that I'm not a doctor.


ToxicSlurpee posted:

Hello thread, how are you doing?

Just checking because I am a toxin and I exist.

Hello ToxicSlurpee! Doing okay - finally managed to get a bit of sleep so today should be alright. Think I'll get on with writing up another post to keep the momentum going :) How about you my toxic friend?







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

take the moon

by sebmojo
hi toxicslurpee im ok inductively, hope ur good too

Stoner Sloth posted:

toxic mimics.

what are these exactly? milder poisons? because their evolution couldn't be bothered to evolve the real deal?

lol but

body is a dinosaur

take the moon posted:

what are these exactly? milder poisons? because their evolution couldn't be bothered to evolve the real deal?

it says in the post dude

Stoner Sloth posted:

Bright colour can certainly be a warning of toxicity in the animal world but it's not a terribly reliable one - for a start usually you get harmless mimics of toxic species appearing but also sometimes toxic mimics.

no wait actually reading this again has left me as confused (and intrigued) as you

Stoner Sloth

take the moon posted:

hi toxicslurpee im ok inductively, hope ur good too


what are these exactly? milder poisons? because their evolution couldn't be bothered to evolve the real deal?

Just meant that sometimes a creature mimicking another toxic creature can evolve to use toxins itself, or a mildly toxic creature can as you say take advantage of a similarly marked creature which has put way more resources into evolving potent toxins. I'll get more into the evolution of toxins in later posts but it's worth remembering that highly potent, complex toxins require a lot of resources so they're always a trade off... if you look similar to a ridiculously toxic frog, for example, then simply having a mild irritant or even compounds that make you taste bad can add to the illusion that you're dangerous to prey on.

Also you get situations where a venomous creature mimics a poisonous one to get the advantage of appearing dangerous to eat.

To give one brief example though of this kind of thing in the real world slow loris seem to mimic king cobras both in terms of coloration patterns and threat displays - their venom is much, much less dangerous (though still potentially lethal to humans) than a king cobras but by mimicking a large, dangerous creature they are able to scare off things that might otherwise eat them.







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

lol but

body is a dinosaur

Stoner Sloth posted:

slow loris seem to mimic king cobras both in terms of coloration patterns and threat displays

i am almost definitely being a human POV chauvinist but i cannot see it

Only registered members can see post attachments!

Stoner Sloth

lol but posted:

i am almost definitely being a human POV chauvinist but i cannot see it



Gotta remember a lot of things aren't great at colour vision in the way we are - plus they stand on their hind legs with their arms raised up above their heads - this also allows them to easily lick their toxin secreting elbows so that they can deliver a venomous bite. They also make hissing noises while doing this.

Unfortunately people often mistake this behaviour for wanting a hug whereas most animals have the common sense to realize it's a threat.







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Manifisto


I was wondering whether the mimic octopus was itself toxic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LTWFnGmeg

I still don't know the answer to this question, probably it's not, but it mimics a number of toxic things. more importantly, I will seize upon the flimsiest excuse to bring up the mimic octopus because it is objectively badass and amazing


ty nesamdoom!

Stoner Sloth

Manifisto posted:

I was wondering whether the mimic octopus was itself toxic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-LTWFnGmeg

I still don't know the answer to this question, probably it's not, but it mimics a number of toxic things. more importantly, I will seize upon the flimsiest excuse to bring up the mimic octopus because it is objectively badass and amazing

Awesome thing to bring up actually! In fact as we relatively recently discovered ALL cephalopod with the sole exception of nautilus are in fact venomous. So yeah, the mimic octopus is a great example of this phenomenon!

Also it means that the heaviest venomous animal is probably the colossal squid (depending on how you define things but in common terms anyways).

But yeah - you know how you often find sea shells at the beach with little perfectly symetrical holes in them? Well one of the things that does that is octopus essentially using their radula as well as acidic secretions to drill through the shell of the mollusc inside. Then they use their venom to paralyze the muscles that hold the shell together and pop it open like a lunch box.

Octopus are pretty metal.







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Goons Are Gifts

Stoner Sloth posted:

Octopus are pretty metal.

I love octopus. I'm like 80% certain that they are aliens from another world who came to poison us all, while secretly being our overlords.

I love to hear more about their venom, too!! I don't plan to hug one in the near future but maybe actually I do want to do that, because look how amazing they must be at hugging.


Stoner Sloth

Goons Are Great posted:

I love octopus. I'm like 80% certain that they are aliens from another world who came to poison us all, while secretly being our overlords.

I love to hear more about their venom, too!! I don't plan to hug one in the near future but maybe actually I do want to do that, because look how amazing they must be at hugging.

They are certainly the best huggers in the animal kingdom - but they're basically on our side in that they keep down jellyfish numbers. I plan to add more entries on both jellyfish so you can see why they need to be kept in line and also on squids and octopus too!

But really I think they're mostly just the benefactors of a lucky accident of 'evolutionary scaffolding' - by moving their 'shell' inside of their body instead of the more obviously defensive armor of most molluscs they provide the structure necessary to anchor muscles in place early on, eventually though the evolved beyond the need for it and were able to harness jet propulsion, mimetic camoflage, highly neurotoxic to their target venom (though that mostly isn't us) and highly developed nervous systems on a similar though in many ways very different principles to more complex life forms (though not necessarily in this order).

Part of it is due to the structure of their nervous system - they basically have broader nerve channels than us which makes up for being less efficient. That and their amazing eyes which developed from all of this to make them more capable active hunters.

Weird that one small little factor like that can so shift the balance of things.

That said we shouldn't underestimate the intelligence of more 'primitive' molluscs - after all cone shells regularly take down and consume fish despite being basically snails.







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Goons Are Gifts

In general I'm a huge fan of not underestimating non-centralized nervous systems. We humans with our huge rear end brains think that size matters here, but as with many invertebrates, there are other concepts that do not involve having a big center of nerves in one place, which may be efficient in some cases, but very hindering in others, not to say about the vulnerability of having all the vital stuff in one spot.

Especially squid prove that they can be massively intelligent from whatever point of view we define that term, while also having a lot of arms for the important jerking off challenge, plus amazing venom and jet propulsion!! Think about how long it took us to invent that.

I could say Cthulhu here as obvious proof of concept, but also that might summon him and we are not yet ready for him yet, also if he got venom I'm sure it's very unhealthy for us!! :cthulhu:


Stoner Sloth

Goons Are Great posted:

In general I'm a huge fan of not underestimating non-centralized nervous systems. We humans with our huge rear end brains think that size matters here, but as with many invertebrates, there are other concepts that do not involve having a big center of nerves in one place, which may be efficient in some cases, but very hindering in others, not to say about the vulnerability of having all the vital stuff in one spot.

Especially squid prove that they can be massively intelligent from whatever point of view we define that term, while also having a lot of arms for the important jerking off challenge, plus amazing venom and jet propulsion!! Think about how long it took us to invent that.

I could say Cthulhu here as obvious proof of concept, but also that might summon him and we are not yet ready for him yet, also if he got venom I'm sure it's very unhealthy for us!! :cthulhu:

Absolutely - I think really though intelligence only really makes sense within context. Social species, as I'm sure ants attest to, are capable of greater adaptive intelligence that crosses environments, even if it's through just following relatively simple group communication and rules. For us it's surely far more complex but even simple creatures are capable within their own context. But that said within their own niche alot of relatively 'simple' creatures can exhibit extraordinarily complex behaviours.

Also found octopus more intelligent than squid - oddly little blue ring octopus seem one of the most canny of the lot of 'em. But also cuttlefish seem exceptionally intelligent (from the generalistic ways we'd judge another mammal I mean at least).

But yeah - molluscs will be one of the next options after the two more posts i have planned - that or mammals will be fun to start on next depending on what our viewers decide!!







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ToxicSlurpee

-=SEND HELP=-


Goons Are Great posted:

In general I'm a huge fan of not underestimating non-centralized nervous systems. We humans with our huge rear end brains think that size matters here, but as with many invertebrates, there are other concepts that do not involve having a big center of nerves in one place, which may be efficient in some cases, but very hindering in others, not to say about the vulnerability of having all the vital stuff in one spot.

Humans don't even have a centralized brain. There have been increasing references to the "second brain." You know those gut feelings you get? Those are real. That is literally all the nervous bullshit going on in your stomach telling you something. That sinking feeling in your gut that something is wrong usually means that something is, in fact, wrong. We mostly don't notice it as its primary job is keeping all that complex digestive machinery doing its thing and it's entirely subconscious but it's definitely there. Even so digestion is a really complex task especially when you're as complex as a person.

Even so, you know those times where you get a really bizarre craving for something oddly specific totally out of nowhere? There's a reason for that; your second brain knows what's going on and is telling you "I need whatever is in that thing I'm telling you to go eat."

This is also probably why antidepressants can cause stomach or intestinal problems. Since it's functionally a second brain increasing serotonin levels affects it which can sometimes cause problems.

I'm sewage flavored.

Manifisto


when it comes to human evolution, I think we may want to set our sights on chromatophores, those are pretty rad (and socially useful!)

Stoner Sloth

ToxicSlurpee posted:

Humans don't even have a centralized brain. There have been increasing references to the "second brain." You know those gut feelings you get? Those are real. That is literally all the nervous bullshit going on in your stomach telling you something. That sinking feeling in your gut that something is wrong usually means that something is, in fact, wrong. We mostly don't notice it as its primary job is keeping all that complex digestive machinery doing its thing and it's entirely subconscious but it's definitely there. Even so digestion is a really complex task especially when you're as complex as a person.

Even so, you know those times where you get a really bizarre craving for something oddly specific totally out of nowhere? There's a reason for that; your second brain knows what's going on and is telling you "I need whatever is in that thing I'm telling you to go eat."

This is also probably why antidepressants can cause stomach or intestinal problems. Since it's functionally a second brain increasing serotonin levels affects it which can sometimes cause problems.

Yeah... dunno mate, I think we're somewhat over blowing this in the sense that yes, of course we have a somewhat decentralized nervous system that plays a part in how our body self regulates basic systems but at the same time labeling it as a 'second brain' or with the loaded term subconcious (though obviously on some level that's correct) is getting ahead of ourselves. I think pop science tends to over simplify things to a worrying degree like with gut bacteria.

Also I think that such a simple part of our nervous system would only be able to judge it's needs in crude terms - look at how many people live for years with chronic malnutrition of one form or another (iodine for example) while thinking they're absolutely fine. I mean sure it's obviously a body system of some importance and allows feedback to some extent... but we tend to think of these things popularly in quasi-mystical terms instead of going 'oh another cluster of nerve cells like the "brain" in our eyes that makes sense of things to a certain degree before we visually process them in the central nervous system' or 'oh you mean like how we recoil from a hot thing we've just stupidly touched before it is processed by our brain as painful or hot?'

:shrug: just thinking out loud really there but figure we always, as is so human to do, rush to explain lots of things based on pretty scant evidence cause it fits how we feel or a pattern we perceive (real or not) or whatever. Not mean as a criticism of you Toxic Slurpee though, just being skeptical rightly or wrongly - was an interesting post friend!

e: also it ties in obliquely to the start of our next piece of the toxicological puzzle!!

Stoner Sloth fucked around with this message at 17:13 on May 9, 2019







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

Stoner Sloth

Manifisto posted:

when it comes to human evolution, I think we may want to set our sights on chromatophores, those are pretty rad (and socially useful!)

Mostly just a bump cause to remind myself to get started on the next post. Sorry I blame business and post-depressing election result malaise - but I will definitely have the next post up this week!

But yeah, chromatophores would be cool as gently caress - particularly the sorts used by cuttlefish, they can see circularly polarized light with their amazing eyes and can utilized to send visual messages to each other that almost nothing else can see!







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

Manifisto


Stoner Sloth posted:

Mostly just a bump cause to remind myself to get started on the next post. Sorry I blame business and post-depressing election result malaise - but I will definitely have the next post up this week!

But yeah, chromatophores would be cool as gently caress - particularly the sorts used by cuttlefish, they can see circularly polarized light with their amazing eyes and can utilized to send visual messages to each other that almost nothing else can see!

yay, looking forward to more toxin stuff!

that sounded wrong . . .


ty nesamdoom!

Goons Are Gifts

Poison us!!


xcheopis


Stoner Sloth posted:

Mostly just a bump cause to remind myself to get started on the next post. Sorry I blame business and post-depressing election result malaise - but I will definitely have the next post up this week!

But yeah, chromatophores would be cool as gently caress - particularly the sorts used by cuttlefish, they can see circularly polarized light with their amazing eyes and can utilized to send visual messages to each other that almost nothing else can see!

Is it next week yet?

Stoner Sloth

xcheopis posted:

Is it next week yet?

It is but I have been slack/busy/bad frame of mind to write complex stuff - definitely going to fix that very soon though, hopefully this weekend just about to start!







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

xcheopis


Stoner Sloth posted:

It is but I have been slack/busy/bad frame of mind to write complex stuff - definitely going to fix that very soon though, hopefully this weekend just about to start!

Thenk yew

Goons Are Gifts

Pumped. Gonna write an ant crew effort post right now to compensate.


take the moon

by sebmojo
sorry for necroing toxin crew not :twisted: but i found this cool toxin called tetrodotoxin which has been used to uh alleviate heroin withdrawal symptoms apparently. anyway thats it, ty

Stoner Sloth

take the moon posted:

sorry for necroing toxin crew not :twisted: but i found this cool toxin called tetrodotoxin which has been used to uh alleviate heroin withdrawal symptoms apparently. anyway thats it, ty

I feel bad about not updating, oddly enough got yelled at about a tv show that mentions tetrodotoxin. i'll try to do better friendo







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

Goons Are Gifts

Ah no worries, just resurrect toxin crew whenever you feel like posting. Ant Crew made it to byob page 3 like, thrice, already, too.

Also, I read about tetrodotoxin a while back as well, super cool stuff


Manifisto


I have eaten fugu

it was very weird, I was in japan on business and I happened to bring it up with a client just like "oh have you ever eaten it haha"

then this client like set up a meal just because I had said that where there was like a huge plate of it just for me (it tasted very bland)

this is the kind of thing that can happen in japan folks

also by the way I died of ttx poisoning and I am ghostposting


ty nesamdoom!

Goons Are Gifts

Wait are Ramen a kind of ghost?? If they are toxic


take the moon

by sebmojo

Manifisto posted:

also by the way I died of ttx poisoning and I am ghostposting

unfortunate

thats what you get for posting in toxin crew without a tag


Goons Are Great posted:

Wait are Ramen a kind of ghost?? If they are toxic

instant ramen is toxic af. i went to an experimental film thing which was all about immigrant experiences in :canada:. the leadoff short film was someone reciting a list of ways instant ramen would literally kill you slowly, accompanied by a slideshow of it photographed in the way you'd expect gourmet/hand prepared whatever ramen to be. ive had it literally twice since then. each time it filled me with existential terror.

instant ramen culture is shockingly beautiful tho, i guess like many unhealthy things.

Stoner Sloth

bump because new things are coming soon!







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

Heather Papps

hello friend


Stoner Sloth posted:

bump because new things are coming soon!

teach me about bee venom professor sloth



thanks Dumb Sex-Parrot and deep dish peat moss for this winter bounty!

Stoner Sloth

Heather Papps posted:

teach me about bee venom professor sloth

so scorpions and bees - i think i can make an interesting poast or two about both of these fascinating groups of aminals! i'll try to get something up in the next week about scorps and then do a bit on bees (might have a bit more to say there cause they're so well studied and much history given our close relationship with them)







sigs by the awesome Manifisto, Vanisher, City of Glompton, Pot Smoke Phoenix, Nut, Heather Papps,Prof Crocodile, knuthgrush, Ohtori Akio, Teapot, Saosyhant, Dumb Sex Parrot, w4ddl3d33, and nesamdoom!! - ty friends!

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Goons Are Gifts

A fly crawled into the ant's nest yesterday by accident, not aware of what it was entering, and I saw three ants jumping on it, sounding the intruder alarm and they immediately covered it in venom. The fly was dead after less than a second.
Poor fly, but drat it was fascinating to see this work on something else than my too thick to hurt hand skin! I could even see the drops of liquid shooting out of the ant butts onto the fly. I wish I had filmed that in slow motion.


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