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Ilor posted:The underlying assumption that links exploration with colonization is the idea that the area being explored is populated by "primitives" or that it contains resources/people ripe for exploitation. The way to "decolonize" is to break this fundamental assumption - the area you're exploring turns out to be filled with advanced societies that are technologically/magically/culturally superior to your own. Turns out your region is the back-water, that you are the "primitive." Somehow I'm reminded of the Crusader Kings "Sunset Invasion" event chain where the Aztecs invade western Europe. They proceed to complain about how backwards and tiny European cities are compared to the metropolis of Tenochtitlán and how horribly stinky Europeans are. (The city had several hundred thousand inhabitants at the time of the Spanish conquest and was rivaled only by major European cities like Paris or the recently-repopulated Istanbul, and its inhabitants bathed frequently--there's one account that says the Aztecs followed the conquistadors around with incense burners to mask the Spaniards' terrible odor.) Aschlafly fucked around with this message at 23:24 on Apr 25, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 23:20
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Self Edit : This is about fascists in TRAD gaming, if I still want to talk about Fallout so badly I'll head over to a different forum, sorry
Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 00:10 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 25, 2019 23:51
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Urgh, that is a shame to hear about Sandy Peterson. Anything on Gregg Stafford or Robin Laws?
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Apr 26, 2019 00:31
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PinheadSlim posted:Self Edit : This is about fascists in TRAD gaming, if I still want to talk about Fallout so badly I'll head over to a different forum, sorry Thanks.
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Apr 26, 2019 00:42
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In an effort to re-rail this thread, I'm gonna bring up what I brought up in the historicals thread. How do y'all feel about featuring swastikas on German armies, and the people who play them in general? I'm always a little hesitant of people who exclusively play Germans in WW2, that's mostly because of so many bad experiences I've had with people who play Confederates in American civil war games. My civil war buff uncle got me into traditional gaming and he brought me to a lot of racists basements where I got to overhear all sorts of horrible poo poo no 9 year old should hear.
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Apr 26, 2019 02:09
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If they put the swastikas there, it's because they're Nazis, or Nazi-adjacent. This is a healthy rule of thumb that will steer you right so drat many times....and you know what? If you somehow meet the one exception, well, what did you lose, really?
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Apr 26, 2019 02:40
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PinheadSlim posted:In an effort to re-rail this thread, I'm gonna bring up what I brought up in the historicals thread. I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with color matching or having the correct unit insignia in a game that's meant to display a historical period in time. I've known perfectly normal people play Germans in FoW or Bolt Action and I've known complete loving weirdos who have SS officer uniforms in their closets that they've shown me as if it's something cool to cosplay as. The latter definitely have a different "feel" about them personality wise. The difference is that the mostly normal folks in the historical scene doing that will talk about the innovative or interesting facts about the FG 42 while the wehraboo will reveal himself as he tries to orally fellate the gun's memory as if it was the second coming of <insert your favorite non apocryphal gunsmith here>. As an interesting compromise, I kinda like what Paolo Parente's Dust does with the German forces, modifying the unit insignia of the Afrika Corps and Luftwaffe to swap the overtness of the swastika for the iron cross.
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Apr 26, 2019 02:44
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Brock Samsonite posted:As an interesting compromise, I kinda like what Paolo Parente's Dust does with the German forces, modifying the unit insignia of the Afrika Corps and Luftwaffe to swap the overtness of the swastika for the iron cross. I like this too and I think it provides a decent litmus test for Nazi sympathizers. Sympathizers and wehraboos are often saying stuff like the German army was German first, Nazi second, and that any pride they might feel is mostly for Germany and it's military traditions. If this is true then why wouldn't the symbol for the army itself be a more appropriate symbol than the one for the Nazi party? Also I just realized a pretty easy way to win any argument about using the Totenkopf. Ask if they would willingly paint and play a miniature with slicked hair and a gasmask moustache, why or why not? It existed before Nazis but doesn't it make you think of only one thing? It's like symbolism is somehow lost on these people. How would they feel if I put muttonchops and a stovepipe hat on a miniature then got incredulous when they associated it with Abraham Lincoln? "I just wanted Marneus Calgar to be dapper, why do yo people have to insert politics into everything!?" Punkinhead fucked around with this message at 03:08 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 03:03
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Brock Samsonite posted:I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with color matching or having the correct unit insignia in a game that's meant to display a historical period in time. I've known perfectly normal people play Germans in FoW or Bolt Action and I've known complete loving weirdos who have SS officer uniforms in their closets that they've shown me as if it's something cool to cosplay as. The latter definitely have a different "feel" about them personality wise. The difference is that the mostly normal folks in the historical scene doing that will talk about the innovative or interesting facts about the FG 42 while the wehraboo will reveal himself as he tries to orally fellate the gun's memory as if it was the second coming of <insert your favorite non apocryphal gunsmith here>. I've discovered that anybody who mythologizes Nazi tanks instead of understanding that they were frequently terribly engineered, costly, hard to use, and not nearly the superior wunderwaffe they get made out to be is more often than not the sort of person likely to fetishize other bits of Nazi Germany. I don't know if it's a 100% overlap on the Venn diagram, but actual military history nerds seem less likely to fall into that trap than somebody who has uncomfortable ideas about the coolness of Nazis.
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Apr 26, 2019 03:45
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yea there's nothing inherently wrong about giving ww2 german soldiers historically correct imagery (though of course there's also nothing wrong with NOT doing that, I like that 'eeeeh just use the iron cross instead' option). In my experiences the types of guys who are REAL into their nazi army tend to make themselves known pretty well without needing to stress about if the dude with a swastika on his german tank did it for historical accuracy or because he loves hitler. Of course, anyone doing Nazi Space Marines or whatever can probably be written off as garbo right away. We have Nazi Space Marines already, they're called Space Marines, there's no reason to put a hat on a hat unless that second hat is your SS officer replica hat you wear to crank it.
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Apr 26, 2019 03:51
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I get legit disappointed when a rules set doesn't somehow punish the player for fielding a Tiger.
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Apr 26, 2019 03:54
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Kai Tave posted:I've discovered that anybody who mythologizes Nazi tanks instead of understanding that they were frequently terribly engineered, costly, hard to use, and not nearly the superior wunderwaffe they get made out to be is more often than not the sort of person likely to fetishize other bits of Nazi Germany. I don't know if it's a 100% overlap on the Venn diagram, but actual military history nerds seem less likely to fall into that trap than somebody who has uncomfortable ideas about the coolness of Nazis. What's funny is that these people often have no idea about things like M18/M36 tank destroyers or 76mm Sherman cannons. Frankly I'm amazed more people don't know about our 50MPH Tiger killers.
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Apr 26, 2019 04:10
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jakodee posted:Can I nominate “anyone who is really, REALLY into Gary Gygax as a person as, not a fascist as such, but deeply weird and likely fash adjacent? Gygax basically used D&D to hang out and smoke pot (one of my friends personally knew him when he was living in Lake Geneva), so I'm not so sure fascist is the first thing that pops in most peoples head.
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Apr 26, 2019 05:19
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LordAba posted:Gygax basically used D&D to hang out and smoke pot (one of my friends personally knew him when he was living in Lake Geneva), so I'm not so sure fascist is the first thing that pops in most peoples head. Yeah and obviously Gygax smoking pot with people means... something... and therefor he could not be a lovely authoritarian who seriously used Wounded Knee as an example of how Paladins would act. Simple logic, really
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Apr 26, 2019 05:43
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Darwinism posted:Yeah and obviously Gygax smoking pot with people means... something... and therefor he could not be a lovely authoritarian who seriously used Wounded Knee as an example of how Paladins would act. Simple logic, really Pretty sure most people know him as "that cool D&D guy that smokes pot on Futurama" rather than not, so yeah. It means maybe don't automatically label fans of his as facists?
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Apr 26, 2019 06:00
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Kai Tave posted:I've discovered that anybody who mythologizes Nazi tanks instead of understanding that they were frequently terribly engineered, costly, hard to use, and not nearly the superior wunderwaffe they get made out to be is more often than not the sort of person likely to fetishize other bits of Nazi Germany. I don't know if it's a 100% overlap on the Venn diagram, but actual military history nerds seem less likely to fall into that trap than somebody who has uncomfortable ideas about the coolness of Nazis. Nazi-era German engineering could be summed up as "good, remarkably forward-thinking ideas implemented in the most inexplicable and most dumbfoundingly stupid and counterproductive ways" The ideas sounded good on paper (or in a history book describing them, I suppose), but anyone who thinks Nazis made actual good battlefield weapons that could even hope to keep up with the practical and rugged equipment the Allies made in a real combat situation is suspect, IMO.
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Apr 26, 2019 06:11
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LordAba posted:Pretty sure most people know him as "that cool D&D guy that smokes pot on Futurama" rather than not, so yeah. It means maybe don't automatically label fans of his as facists? Nobody did that.
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Apr 26, 2019 06:19
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LordAba posted:Pretty sure most people know him as "that cool D&D guy that smokes pot on Futurama" rather than not, so yeah. It means maybe don't automatically label fans of his as facists? lol here we are chatting about fascists in trad gaming and look who's shown up to go "b-b-b-but maybe we shouldn't be too quick to jump to conclusions about people being fascists, sometimes it's fine to say you're cool with putting kids in camps" Beasts of War responded to me (or Warren did anyway, from his personal account) and I got a p. standard "huh well politics is hard huh, we'll look into it I guess!!!" response. 
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Apr 26, 2019 06:31
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LordAba posted:Pretty sure most people know him as "that cool D&D guy that smokes pot on Futurama" rather than not, so yeah. It means maybe don't automatically label fans of his as facists? I think its blatantly obvious why you're defending fash.
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Apr 26, 2019 06:34
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LordAba posted:Pretty sure most people know him as "that cool D&D guy that smokes pot on Futurama" rather than not, so yeah. It means maybe don't automatically label fans of his as facists? Maybe you should stay out of discussions about fascists. Did you think we all forgot about you?
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Apr 26, 2019 06:38
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Nobody did that. Jakodee was literally saying that (or fascist adjacent, whatever that means) on the last page.
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Apr 26, 2019 07:17
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LordAba posted:Jakodee was literally saying that (or fascist adjacent, whatever that means) on the last page. Go back and read it again.
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Apr 26, 2019 07:37
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LordAba posted:Jakodee was literally saying that (or fascist adjacent, whatever that means) on the last page. Hey why is your AV a spinning nazi logo and vomiting space marine?
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Apr 26, 2019 07:39
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I wonder what it could bequote:It's not a good solution, but likening them to concentration camps is jumping the shark. At least call it what it is: jailing I don't agree with. Unless you can post some info that says the living conditions of these people are subhuman or they are being detained for no reason (even if you don't agree with being arrested for illegal entry, doesn't mean it isn't a reason).
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Apr 26, 2019 07:50
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:Go back and read it again. quote:Can I nominate “anyone who is really, REALLY into Gary Gygax as a person as, not a fascist as such, but deeply weird and likely fash adjacent? I mean, I guess it depends on what you mean by "really really into Gary as a person", cause there is an obvious disconnect from "I've hung out with him and he is a cool guy" and "I've read all his racist/authoritarian stuff". Technically jakodee wasn't advocating for automatically labeling either, so I apologies for that.
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Apr 26, 2019 07:52
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LordAba posted:I mean, I guess it depends on what you mean by "really really into Gary as a person", cause there is an obvious disconnect from "I've hung out with him and he is a cool guy" and "I've read all his racist/authoritarian stuff". Do you think other people can't see your avatar or something? Like, try to ignore people all you want but everyone sort of knows where you stand when it comes to fash. Pendent fucked around with this message at 07:58 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 07:55
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LordAba posted:I mean, I guess it depends on what you mean by "really really into Gary as a person", cause there is an obvious disconnect from "I've hung out with him and he is a cool guy" and "I've read all his racist/authoritarian stuff". So you're into him as a fascist, or what?
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Apr 26, 2019 07:56
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Elector_Nerdlingen posted:So you're into him as a fascist, or what? Nope, in fact I don't know much about his political beliefs. He made a cool game and I've heard fun stories about his gaming sessions (plus stories from his brother at a couple cons in Madison). He's in the milieu of nerd culture, not as some sort of fascist headpiece. I'm sure he said some dumb poo poo, and people who follow him for that are idiots.
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Apr 26, 2019 08:05
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Corrode posted:I wonder what it could be There really are some horrid people in this hobby... LordAba posted:Nope, in fact I don't know much about his political beliefs. He made a cool game and I've heard fun stories about his gaming sessions (plus stories from his brother at a couple cons in Madison). He's in the milieu of nerd culture, not as some sort of fascist headpiece.  I'm sure lots of bad people have done a couple of fun things/smoked a bit of weed too, it doesn't cancel it out like some fascist carbon offset, and most people would stop defending them. Chiwie posted:Hey why is your AV a spinning nazi logo and vomiting space marine? Ah... that's why.
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Apr 26, 2019 08:19
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Oh well this is awkward. You saw the title and thought it was a goonmeet didn't you?
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Apr 26, 2019 09:26
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LordAba posted:Nope, in fact I don't know much about his political beliefs. He made a cool game and I've heard fun stories about his gaming sessions (plus stories from his brother at a couple cons in Madison). He's in the milieu of nerd culture, not as some sort of fascist headpiece. Mors Rattus posted:https://twitter.com/FreyjaErlings/status/1106279415825293314 gently caress Gary Gygax and also you’re an idiot bootlicker.
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Apr 26, 2019 10:33
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I got a reply back from Green Stuff World:quote:Hello, https://twitter.com/greenstuffworld/status/1121707957903867907 So...I don't know. It seems hard to stumble across this kind of thing on accident, but it is technically possible so I'm willing to call the case closed if they're willing to actually denounce hate and promised to rework the deign in the future. I asked them if they have an ETA on that rework for people who might want to buy the edited version, so we'll see. I'm willing to say it's probably a misunderstanding. That said they only seemed to reply once you guys started turning the screws on Twitter. :/
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Apr 26, 2019 12:40
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richyp posted:I'm sure lots of bad people have done a couple of fun things/smoked a bit of weed too, it doesn't cancel it out like some fascist carbon offset, and most people would stop defending them. I think you missed the point... which was that many people don't know that side of him, so branding people a certain way based on if they like Gary or not is pretty disingenuous. Though fairly recently a native american activist group got in touch with Target and Noble Knight games to get an offensive board game taken down, so there are routes you can take if you think D&D has some lingering traces of it. LordAba fucked around with this message at 13:31 on Apr 26, 2019 |
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Apr 26, 2019 13:24
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Deified Data posted:I got a reply back from Green Stuff World: I don't think you could accidentally run across the Black Sun image, or mistake it for being actually Norse because it literally first shows up when Heinrich Himmler decided to remodel a castle, but it is possible that one of their sculptors slipped it past them with that as a story.
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Apr 26, 2019 13:28
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Wondered how long it would take Aba to show up...Deified Data posted:I got a reply back from Green Stuff World: Yeah it sucks that it took more than a few people but at least there's a response and it's a positive one. Good job everyone. Corrode posted:lol here we are chatting about fascists in trad gaming and look who's shown up to go "b-b-b-but maybe we shouldn't be too quick to jump to conclusions about people being fascists, sometimes it's fine to say you're cool with putting kids in camps" This on the other hand is disappointing as poo poo. What's he gonna look into?
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Apr 26, 2019 13:50
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This thread is doing good work. Thank you everyone. I think there is a bunch of willful ignorance and path of least resistance in the general wargaming. I think often dudes think that since it doesn't hurt me directly, and calling the dude out would be socially difficult. I mean, this happened to me at a local gamestore, the dude was the owner's buddy and he found out I played orks, we brought up how he wanted to make a nazi ork army from kromlech, and how funny it would be, like as a joke, haha. It was real weird, I wasn't sure how to react and I haven't been back. Also, Fascism defenders please log off.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:08
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Be like "yeah haha Nazis are basically subhuman troglodytes huh like a joke haha" Which is a huge insult to the Orks, who are precious and pure (in a good way) but whatevs
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Apr 26, 2019 15:37
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This thread loving rules. My brother and I would honeypot dipshits at our local store because he painted his German army in neon pink and the Wehraboos couldn't help but trip over their own dicks to defend the tiny plastic Nazi honor. Always call these assholes out because surprise, they're all giant cowards and are used to being in settings where people just stay quiet and try to ignore them until they go away and anyone telling them to gently caress off is a huge shock to them.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:39
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This is why every historical player needs a Nazi army. There is something to the old wargaming philosophy that not every faction needs to be viable and some for lack of a better word should be designed to lose more than they win. Nazi armies should be in the hands of people who enjoy losing with them, like Goblins in Bloodbowl.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:45
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I can't really speak to historical stuff except to say that I don't think I could be comfortable playing a WW2 historical at all, even without the wehraboos. It's too...personal, too close, for me. It's much easier for me to look at fantasy and sci fi wargames in general for that reason.
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Apr 26, 2019 15:47
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