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Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

IOwnCalculus posted:

That seems likely. The other option would be if the clutch air gap was too tight, but that seems unlikely.

Agreed. Depending on where that compressor is sitting you might even be able to do this without opening the system.

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everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

OK here we go.

1992 Toyota Celsior (exact same engine as Lexus LS400).

AC not working. Hooked a gauge set to it I got to the point I figured no refrigerant. This system is still R12. Call an old guy who does work on the side. We tried to add R12 but Compressor would not turn on. He pulled the relay and jumped the compressor to turn on and it sucked down the refrigerant and AC was bitterly cold. Lasted a few days and now back to zero so obviously it all leaked out somewhere.

So compressor is good AC works but it is escaping somewhere. R12 is very expensive. This old guy wants to shoot the cheap R134 into it with dye to find leak he says he has filled dozens of cars without doing any changes and they have been fine.

So tell me why not to do this and what to do instead. If I can get the AC working and confidently know it is going to be rock solid going to list this vehicle on BAT. It has 19k actual miles and is amazing car.

Thanks for any opinions or info.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

everdave posted:

This old guy wants to shoot the cheap R134 into it with dye to find leak

To find the leak, no problem.

everdave posted:

he says he has filled dozens of cars without doing any changes and they have been fine.

Filled is a different story - depends on what oil is in your system. If it's got mineral oil in it that's a no-go. You need to drain what oil you can from everywhere and put a sufficient amount of PAG or POE in there. If you don't get all the old oil out it's not the end of the world, you're just reducing the system capacity somewhat (that's my understanding and experience, but I bet someone will yell at me for that). But you absolutely DO need a sufficient amount of something that will actually mix with the 134 or it will end up killing your compressor. I've drained presumed mineral oil out as much as possible, put the entire rated amount of POE in and then charged with 134.

Be aware, it's not likely to be very cold when you're sitting in traffic.

If the old guy is up for a challenge have him fill it with R152a out of computer duster cans (and sufficient POE oil). It will be like a meat locker in there.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

Motronic posted:

To find the leak, no problem.


Filled is a different story - depends on what oil is in your system. If it's got mineral oil in it that's a no-go. You need to drain what oil you can from everywhere and put a sufficient amount of PAG or POE in there. If you don't get all the old oil out it's not the end of the world, you're just reducing the system capacity somewhat (that's my understanding and experience, but I bet someone will yell at me for that). But you absolutely DO need a sufficient amount of something that will actually mix with the 134 or it will end up killing your compressor. I've drained presumed mineral oil out as much as possible, put the entire rated amount of POE in and then charged with 134.

Be aware, it's not likely to be very cold when you're sitting in traffic.

If the old guy is up for a challenge have him fill it with R152a out of computer duster cans (and sufficient POE oil). It will be like a meat locker in there.

Thank you! Can you just use a can tap on the computer duster cans and puncture the side?

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

everdave posted:

Thank you! Can you just use a can tap on the computer duster cans and puncture the side?

Yup. That's what I do. The skinny can's don't fit properly in mine so my elegant solution was to ball up some cardboard and duct tape it to the other "arm" of the can tap to make up the difference.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

Motronic posted:

Yup. That's what I do. The skinny can's don't fit properly in mine so my elegant solution was to ball up some cardboard and duct tape it to the other "arm" of the can tap to make up the difference.

So letís pretend we find the leak and fix. Then I want to fill with computer duster. I know system holds 36 oz capacity. What oil do I add with it or how do I find out? 1992 Toyota 4.0 v8. OR is there a r134 with the correct oil in it? I just want to list car for sale but I donít sell things without it being fixed where it will stay fixed as far as I know.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Unless the system has explosively vented itself or you've replaced major components, I doubt it's low enough on oil to worry about making that up.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

everdave posted:

So letís pretend we find the leak and fix. Then I want to fill with computer duster. I know system holds 36 oz capacity. What oil do I add with it or how do I find out? 1992 Toyota 4.0 v8. OR is there a r134 with the correct oil in it? I just want to list car for sale but I donít sell things without it being fixed where it will stay fixed as far as I know.

You don't want R134 with oil in it. It's such a pain in the rear end and it slugs the compressor if you do it wrong. You also have little control over how much is going in.

Bad news: stock fill is mineral.

http://techchoiceparts.com/refriger...apacities/lexus

Take out as much as you can and put in 7 oz of PAG 46. 36 oz of R12 would be replaced with about 27 ounces of R134a if the system is full capacity. It's going to be less than that since you're not going to get all the mineral oil out, so you'll have to charge by running pressures. If you want to go R152a - dammit I didn't put the spreadsheet I made up for conversion weights in the OP. Let me know if I need to dig it out for you.

Big Taint
Oct 19, 2003



The A/C wasnít working in my Ď00 E320. Code was for the coil. Tested and it was no good. The coil has a little fuse that blows if it gets too hot. I bought a used compressor off eBay, and I figured Iíd replace just the clutch bits and see if that would sort it without having to open the whole system up.

Access is pretty terrible to the bolts holding the wiring for the coil on top of the compressor, I removed the windshield washer tank to get a better shot at them. And the coil and pulley are held on with circlips that are inset and really annoying to get on and off when you canít see them.

I persisted.



The old stuff is pretty clearly hosed. The coil is burned, and the magnet on the clutch is mostly gone. The compressor spun freely though, so I put the new stuff on and fired her up.

Blows nice and cold, I hooked up the little recharge can and itís reading right at the bottom of ďgreenĒ (25 psi). I let it idle for a while and no weird sounds. Drove it about 10 miles yesterday and it made some weird noises intermittently. Iím hoping the compressor is just a little tired from sitting for however long, we will see.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

Motronic posted:

You don't want R134 with oil in it. It's such a pain in the rear end and it slugs the compressor if you do it wrong. You also have little control over how much is going in.

Bad news: stock fill is mineral.

http://techchoiceparts.com/refriger...apacities/lexus

Take out as much as you can and put in 7 oz of PAG 46. 36 oz of R12 would be replaced with about 27 ounces of R134a if the system is full capacity. It's going to be less than that since you're not going to get all the mineral oil out, so you'll have to charge by running pressures. If you want to go R152a - dammit I didn't put the spreadsheet I made up for conversion weights in the OP. Let me know if I need to dig it out for you.

Could I add a can or two of r152a and just see what happens? Would it be possible he overfilled it and it caused it to leak or is that impossible?

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

everdave posted:

Could I add a can or two of r152a and just see what happens? Would it be possible he overfilled it and it caused it to leak or is that impossible?

If he added enough to "make it leak" that's not a temporary condition: something was damaged.

And r152a is not miscible with mineral oil, so running it like that will trash the compressor in short order.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

Motronic posted:

If he added enough to "make it leak" that's not a temporary condition: something was damaged.

And r152a is not miscible with mineral oil, so running it like that will trash the compressor in short order.

Good to know I did not understand that.

So my plan now is fill a can or so of r134 with dye to look for leak.

Then hope I identify leak and fix.

If I do so then fill with r12?

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

everdave posted:

If I do so then fill with r12?

If you can get it, sure. That's going to work best with the least effort.

Your other reasonable choices are:

- R134a: reduced performance, need to change the oil or add more for even further reduced performance.
- R152a: great performance, still need to remove and/or add oil. Weird loving choice for something you want to sell if you're disclosing everything. But it performs great and maybe that's not an issue to your buyer.

If I wanted to move something I'd fix the system and refill with R12. You should be able to get your hands on some, but be drat sure the system is right before you fill it.

I don't remember where you are, but with corona crazy I'll offer that I have about 40 lbs of R12 in small cans (in Pennsylvania). Choose a reasonable price based on whatever, like ebay sales or something, and I'll send what you need. I'm just unintentionally hoarding this poo poo now. I will likely "negotiate" your price down if this becomes a thing that is useful to you.

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.


Top Cop

If its an R12 system and you fix the leak, just fill it with R12. When you sell it you can go "wow all original" and not go "ok so you know the dark arts that is air conditioning? Ok so you know computer duster? The stuff you can buy at Staples yeah....so that is in this Celsior..wait hey where are you going?"

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

If I am confident I can fix the leak and it is really fixed I should be able to get enough R12 to get it most of the way full. Me being arrogant we used half of old dudes stash to fill it first, but I will take you up on your offer if needed. I at least have access to 18-24 oz probably from old guy. drat that was a big waste using it first but I was trying to do the right thing. Was empty, jumped the compressor and it sucked it down then everything worked perfectly. So I was like letís fill it to capacity! Goodbye $150.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Import thread spilling into my safe space!

(Kaker is right)

KakerMix
Apr 8, 2004

8.2 M.P.G.


Top Cop

Motronic posted:

Import thread spilling into my safe space!

(Kaker is right)




Importing is probably the biggest potential consumer of R12.

Anything I've had that's R12 and isn't leaking I've filled with this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/R12-Refrig...=item3fc3513a38


R12 is "easy" to get in that I don't seem to have an issue getting it. It is pricey, sure, but when I can fill poo poo like my 1984 Rugger and it starts blowing gloriously cold then I'll pay that price.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

everdave posted:

drat that was a big waste using it first but I was trying to do the right thing

I'm gonna go back to this.

The "right thing" to test if its leaking is a dry gas mix: https://www.epa.gov/sites/productio...LeakTesting.pdf

I'm not saying I have the equipment/facilities, but it's a best practice and you shouldn't be blowing R12 into the atmosphere on untested systems. I'd be pressure testing with CO2 or whatever to verify a tight system. If it wasn't and I couldn't detect it myself somehow I'd find someone who had the right equipment. It's unlikely given your "good" to "not cooling" timeframe that you can't find this, but you/your old dude needs to not be loving around and leaking refrigerant. If he doesn't know he doesn't know. But it's not okay to just keep throwing green house gases at the problem, even if they are "less worse" than R12.

Some responsibility needs to be taken here. Especially as a business owner.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

Absolutely, I try to be responsible. I may take it to a shop I used to use. Not trying to waste money OR hurt the atmosphere.

EDIT: I took it to a shop I used to use who is right down from my store (working in isolation here) and they are desperate for work. Explained everything and they are going to try to find the leak. If they do and can be fixed might be contacting you about the R12 if we don't have to switch the whole system over to 134. Will keep you updated.

DOUBLE EDIT:

The shop evacuated the system, found a leaking O-Ring, has had it under pressure for 3 hours. They have literally one last stash of R12. With tax it is going to be $414, yes I could save money ordering the R12 myself but they are desperate for work and I have used them for nearly 10 years off and on and they strongly feel that this will be rock solid no other leaks. I said go ahead.

I will chalk up the previous money spent to learning some more about mysterious AC which I do know a lot more about thanks to Motronic, this thread and actually getting in there and doing stuff.

Edit:

Freshly fixed and filled with Motronicís tears, but are they tears of joy or sadness?



Edit part deux: It is nearly 80 today and driving the Celsior because I am picking up the kids and 4 doors (my youngest complains about "not having her own window" in the back of one of the Skylines) and AC not blowing cold! Compressor is coming on, I see the R12 flowing freely through the looking glass, WTF? It is back at the shop seeing if they can figure it out before I have to get it back in 2 hours to get the kids and go on lockdown. Dang it dang it

everdave fucked around with this message at 17:59 on Mar 27, 2020

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


So my AC has been short cycling for a bit, and now that it's warmed up a lot, it barely keeps the cabin below "swamp".

Enter $60 Harbor Freight gauges (minus 20% off coupon, of course). Idling with it ~75 outside showed short cycling and ~20 PSI low/didn't even look at high at that point. The total system capacity is ~24 oz. I had one full and one half full can (both 12oz). It sucked it all down.

The best pressures I got were a little below 30 PSI low, 150 PSI high. An improvement. Not ideal, but I'm guessing the compressor is tired. Don't have a thermometer to measure vent temps, but it hurt my hands to keep them in front of the vents for too long after, and it's not short cycling now (instead it just runs nonstop until I rev it, then the low side drops low enough that I assume the low cutout is kicking in). I think I'm gonna run into issues with the evap freezing at this point, though the air coming out of the vents was ice cold and dry instead of kinda coolish and damp for the first time since I've owned it.

What's not an improvement, however...



That oily/neon greenish spot wasn't on the back of the compressor before I started. It was bubbling a bit from both valves too, but it has what looks like fairly new caps on them, so hopefully that'll keep that at bay for now. Someone definitely put dye in it at some point.

So I guess I get to slam another compressor into it. The newest model year they used it in on my car is 2004; however, it looks like the compressor (DKV14G) was used in lots of other cars. Are there any differences in them aside from the pulley? I'd much rather grab a used OEM compressor, I'm fine with one from another model year and just swapping the clutch and pulley... but I don't want one that's almost the age of consent. Or should I drop the $300ish on a lovely Seasons reman? I plan to replace the schrader valves while it's apart.

Car is a 2003 Subaru Outback with the 2.5, 146k miles. Likely safe to assume it's the original compressor, judging by the buildup behind the pulley.

It's ice cold for now, but given how much oil appeared after getting it that way, I doubt it's gonna stay that way too long.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

I scored 6 old cans of R12 for $50 total from FB marketplace and the shop i used said they looked and felt good. Got my 85 acty van with very rare factory ac, not blowing cold not hearing compressor come on hopefully I can get that sorted...

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





STR posted:

So I guess I get to slam another compressor into it. The newest model year they used it in on my car is 2004; however, it looks like the compressor (DKV14G) was used in lots of other cars. Are there any differences in them aside from the pulley?

Depends on how specific that model number is. Could be variations in where/how it mounts, where the pulley is relative to those mounts, where the suction/discharge ports are, and even how those ports connect. The Denso compressor on my WJ had an interchangeable top plate where the suction/discharge ports were, so you could theoretically grab another compressor with the same mounts / pulley and swap that out.

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


Fair enough. Seeing as it was used on multiple makes, I'm gonna guess that's the case here.

Might try to find a low mileage one then, or gamble on a lovely Seasons for nearly $400....

Trying to figure out if it might be a CVC or regular compressor. The pressures refusing to budge despite throwing an extra half can in make me think it might be CVC, same with it not cycling once it was really "on", If that's the case, I'll need to vacuum it and charge it by weight. And with the compressor having obviously bad seals on the back, well.. it's not gonna hold vacuum.

STR fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Apr 30, 2020

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

I checked at advance for you and with the 25% coupon after you turn the core back in part is $300 or so total with tax here probably less tax in TX

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


That's about 1/4 of what the car is worth, so that's a hell no from me as long as it retains some refrigerant.

DrBouvenstein
Feb 28, 2007

I think I'm a doctor, but that doesn't make me a doctor. This fancy avatar does.


I need to replace the compressor in my 2008 Mazda 3S.

Technically, it's just the coil+clutch that's bad, but I cannot get the bolt out of the clutch for the life of me. It's an Allen cap screw (well, WAS and Allen screw, it got rounded off right-quick from my first attempts) and no manner of screw extractor has worked, and the last attempt resulted in the screw extractor breaking off in it, which was last spring and I suffered all summer in it without AC.

Rather than attempt the foolish notion of drilling out the clutch screw with, like, diamond bits and re-tapping the hole, it seems the more logical option is to replace the compressor.

I'd rather not have to buy an AC pump and gauges I'd really only need once, so I assume I can go to a shop, preferably one that specialized in AC repair, have them evac out the old stuff, I bring it home and replace the compressor, then go back there and have them pull a vacuum and recharge it with R-134a and...oil? Or do new compressors typically come pre-oiled?

I'm also going off the idea that since I know it's just a bad coil, I should be ok not replacing anything else, because I looked at some videos for replacing the expansion valve and dryer and it's extraordinarily labor intensive, especially the valve...requires taking apart most of the passenger side dash.

DrBouvenstein fucked around with this message at 21:22 on May 22, 2020

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

DrBouvenstein posted:

so I assume I can go to a shop, preferably one that specialized in AC repair, have them evac out the old stuff, I bring it home and replace the compressor, then go back there and have them pull a vacuum and recharge it with R-134a and...oil? Or do new compressors typically come pre-oiled?

Yup. And compressors usually come with oil in them - enough to replace the amount of oil that would normally be left in the compressor in a properly oiled system.

IOwnCalculus
Apr 2, 2003





Motronic posted:

Yup. And compressors usually come with oil in them - enough to replace the amount of oil that would normally be left in the compressor in a properly oiled system.

This last part varies. The Denso compressor I put in my WJ came with way, way more oil in it than needed.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

IOwnCalculus posted:

This last part varies. The Denso compressor I put in my WJ came with way, way more oil in it than needed.

Good point. It's probably best to drain the oil out and measure how much is in there. Let the shop know. They can decide how much to put back in.

everdave
Nov 14, 2005

For The Record...

My Celsior woes appear again. After nearly 2 months of morgue like temperatures after ship found second leak in o rings it is now not cooling. I am not using it as it still has R12 and compressor running when activated (first time we had to jump it bc empty). I have a shot ton of dye, r12 and my old
Man mechanic coming tomorrow see if we can find this new leak. Not unexpected. A time capsule car that never had its ac turned on probably since 92 things dry out.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.


Question with charging and pressures.

AC system was retrofitted with new compressor and expansion valve two or three years ago. I had a small leak on a fitting last year and my pressure was low this spring.

Evacuated the system, took a look at the leak joint, retightened and replaced o ring etc. Brought the system under vacuum for recharging and started to charge. Put in about 200g of refrigerant, started up the car, started to draw in more via low side. (Total system capacity is 750g). Instead of seeing the compressor cycle, the pressure just kept rising. Added in maybe another 125g of refrigerant before I turned it off. Pressure was up at 70-80psi low and 400+ high.

I think the 4seasons expansion valve might have failed. Low side pressures seemed way too high, you could see the high side effectively maxing out at 400+... Last year the expansion valve was making horrible noises at idle too.

Thoughts? I wouldn't expect a system which was just low on refrigerant to act this way.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


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Grimey Drawer

Yup. You have a clog. Start with the easiest poo poo to get at.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.


I can hear gurgling from the evaporator core/expansion valve so that is my first suspect. There is a chance I have too much oil in this system, due to conflicting information. I wonder if the oil may have clogged something.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Sgt Fox posted:

I can hear gurgling from the evaporator core/expansion valve so that is my first suspect. There is a chance I have too much oil in this system, due to conflicting information. I wonder if the oil may have clogged something.

You would have to have an amazing amount of oil to cause that it likely would have slugged your compressor. I just don't think, from what you've said, that this could be the issue.

Sgt Fox
Dec 21, 2004

It's the buzzer I love the most. Makes me feel alive. Makes the V8's dead.


At most I would have less than two ounces too much.

So I guess start disconnecting things and use some compressed air to check for obstructions?

Edit: took out the evap core and expansion valve unit. Air seems to flow freely through the core/valve. Put the airline on the suction line of the rest of the system, air flows freely through to the high side. Does not seem to be any clog.

Sgt Fox fucked around with this message at 03:06 on May 30, 2020

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

What's the pressure valve setup like in this? It's is low/high valve? Curious why it was still running at that high pressure.

And maybe you have WAY too much oil in there but haven't slugged the compressor. You said the system was retrofitted - what did that entail as far as line lengths/mix and match components and how was the system capacity derived after that?

STR
May 12, 2006

I thought I was a nice jester


IOwnCalculus posted:

This last part varies. The Denso compressor I put in my WJ came with way, way more oil in it than needed.

This. The one I got for Saturd came with a full system fill.

.... which didn't get drained or measured by the "professional mechanic" friend that swapped it for me. It grenaded within a week, and the car was WAY down on power anytime the AC was on (couldn't break 60 when it could normally hit the 108 mph limiter).

Suicide Watch
Sep 8, 2009


Was charging my a/c today but it's still not cold...I think I'll be taking it to the shop soon but want to have some reference point going in.
It's about 80-90ļF outside today and my static pressures were about 100-110psi. After starting the engine and turning on a/c, I could see the compressor clutch engage, with low pressure indicating around 14-20psi and high pressures around 70-90psi. The car interior still isn't getting any colder at all. What's keeping the system from working?

From what I can tell:
1) Compressor seems to work
2) System seems to be taking refrigerant
3) Static pressures on hi/lo seem to equilibrate, so no clogs?

If it helps, last summer when I charged the system I got cool air even from when the low gauge was only up to about 10psi.

Motronic
Nov 6, 2009


MOTRONIC FOR MODERATOR, MAKE AI GREAT AGAIN


Grimey Drawer

Is the condenser fan running at all? If yes, does it have blades on it? All of them? Is the condenser clean enough for air to go through it?

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Suicide Watch
Sep 8, 2009


Motronic posted:

Is the condenser fan running at all? If yes, does it have blades on it? All of them? Is the condenser clean enough for air to go through it?

Well, I never thought about that but it runs. The car has the radiator and condenser in-line with a shared fan, and I haven't had any cooling issues either.
Could it actually be the compressor? There's a slight hissing noise that comes on only when I turn the a/c on. Could it be faulty even if the a/c clutch engages and a pressure differential exists between the hi and lo gauges?

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