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The final 2 Bounty Hunter brackets are out. Witch Doctor should be released on the 11th and SOW on the 18th! Spoilering the brackets since maybe you could read into the result of the Championship with them... Although Rusty is making another appearance... The SOW bracket might be the weakest of the Bounty Hunters though...  
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Mar 2, 2021 11:16
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I dunno that SOW bracket has Kraken, Gigabyte, Copperhead, Perfect Phoenix. They've all looked good when things are operating well for them.
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Mar 2, 2021 17:51
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SLICK GOKU BABY posted:The final 2 Bounty Hunter brackets are out. Witch Doctor should be released on the 11th and SOW on the 18th! Spoilering the brackets since maybe you could read into the result of the Championship with them... Although Rusty is making another appearance... The only one thats still in is Gigabyte so I dont think you could divine too much from them.
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Mar 2, 2021 20:25
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In retrospect, the Bounty Hunters stuff has actually been pretty spoiler-y ever since builders revealed that the filming of them takes place during the Top 8 of the tournament to allow the bots in the top 8 to make repairs in between fights. So any bots that compete in those probably lose in top 16 at the latest. Makes me think Bloodsport, Valkyrie, Rotator, Mammoth, and Gigabyte are all losing this week.
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Mar 2, 2021 21:15
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Fish Of Doom posted:In retrospect, the Bounty Hunters stuff has actually been pretty spoiler-y It's even worse than that! If you pay close attention to the montage of hits and highlights in the first episode of this season, you can figure out the outcome of practically the entire SOW bracket.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:02
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GuavaMoment posted:It's even worse than that! If you pay close attention to the montage of hits and highlights in the first episode of this season, you can figure out the outcome of practically the entire SOW bracket. That same montage also spoiled Endgame vs. Shatter , though at the time we just assumed that was in the bounty hunters or part of the regular season and not a straight up quarterfinal match.
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Mar 2, 2021 23:19
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Tale of the Tape. With Perfect Phoenix & End Game segments for the week. Also a segment with 1 of Faruq's introduction writers... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PilBmp-vtk
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Mar 3, 2021 05:10
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Robert Cowan put up his Copperhead vs. Mammoth recap. He's not thrilled with the judges' decision but doesn't hold it against Mammoth or the judges themselves as much as the fact that there's a bit of a incongruity as to how the scoring rules are written versus how they're applied. I think it's a fair analysis of the situation but I also think that having the rigor to test bot systems after the fight that the judges think are damaged by the other bot instead of just not working because they had a problem of their own may be a bit of a leap for a TV show panel of judges, even if it would be a literal and perhaps more fair implementation of the rules. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4a5S1Vk4MMk
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Mar 3, 2021 06:34
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Here are my weekly predictions. I'll cross-out bots that are no longer in my bracket. Hydra vs Whiplash vs Valkyrie: It's very weird to have this rematch so soon. If Valkyrie can't beat Whiplash in one or two hits (and I doubt they can), they lose. Uppercut vs Tombstone vs Black Dragon: I had to look up my bracket to see who I picked. I think Tombstone will break itself on Black Dragon's weapon. Could go either way. Bloodsport vs Sawblaze vs Witch Doctor: I don't feel good about this one only because it's a pretty even match. But if it's 50/50 odds, I might as well go with my favorite. I think this will be similar to Skorpios with Witch Doctor having a bit of a harder time. Rotator vs Endgame: Endgame's been looking good and I think they're going to overpower Rotator and its defenses.
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Mar 3, 2021 07:07
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Rexxed posted:Robert Cowan put up his Copperhead vs. Mammoth recap. He's not thrilled with the judges' decision but doesn't hold it against Mammoth or the judges themselves as much as the fact that there's a bit of a incongruity as to how the scoring rules are written versus how they're applied. I think it's a fair analysis of the situation but I also think that having the rigor to test bot systems after the fight that the judges think are damaged by the other bot instead of just not working because they had a problem of their own may be a bit of a leap for a TV show panel of judges, even if it would be a literal and perhaps more fair implementation of the rules. Interesting watch and see where he is coming from. But think it's just impossible to say that Mammoth didn't cause the weapon to stop functioning since it stopped after an active attack from Mammoth being on top... Not sure you can write it off just because a team is able to diagnose and get the weapon working again before the end (or even after) the fight. Which likely also is the downside of why a function test would have it's drawbacks. As even 20-30 seconds it would take to do a function test at the end of a fight would give teams a chance to attempt to reset / cool down their systems so things work again to prove they were functioning, even if they weren't in the fight... Although making the judges go in the box every time to see the damage would be a good thing. (I guess at least when there isn't fire / battery fumes) I can say though it seems a lot of the fights, the bots were "seeded" to create interesting matchups... Especially since they put the smallest bot against the largest... no way that's accidental.
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Mar 3, 2021 09:32
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Battlebots judging seems to very much be "who do you feel won the match, now justify it" and I think for a TV show that's fine. It could be editing or technical issues, but it seems like the refs aren't consistent. Tombstone was counted out the second they lost a wheel, Kraken finishes a match on one wheel. Either way is fine to me, but if this was a "real sport" then that kind of poo poo wouldn't fly. I can see where Robert is coming from, and maybe by the letter of the rules he is correct, but I don't see how you expect the judges to be able to divine if being flipped around by Mammoth had an effect on Copperheads weapon or not. I don't have strong feelings about that fight. I feel like it could have gone either way. There have been much worse judges decisions in my opinion anyway. Personally I don't mind if the rule of cool and we're here mostly to put on a good show/have fun were the guiding principals for most of the decisions regarding Battlebots the TV show. Stuff like Hydra's bike rack should be allowed. Attachments making your primary weapon non-functional or just not intending to use your weapon should result in a massive penalty. What's to stop someone entering a bot with a massive fragile weapon, and taking it off to run a huge wedge every fight? Jake back talking to the Ref should be a DQ. I guess what I'm trying to say is even if the rules were 100% perfect and fair I don't think the show would follow them anyway. And it's a TV show so maybe they shouldn't anyway. If it was a serious sport then yes they need much better defined rules and practices they actually follow to make sure everything is fair and unbiased.
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Mar 3, 2021 14:59
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The Tombstone quick count out did seem kind of strange. And possibly the refs got redirected on when to do that by the time Kraken came around. I feel like Ray Billings probably can have some controlled movement of Tombstone even with only 1 wheel functioning... Probably should try to find the Tale of the Tape for that episode to see if they have any insight on that one... Or maybe there was some editing and the count out wasn't as instant as they made it look on TV.
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Mar 3, 2021 15:11
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Didn't do the bracket but the upcoming matches are really interesting so here it goes???: Hydra vs Gigabyte - Mumbling posted:Evil will triumph. Whiplash vs Valkyrie - whiplash is too well-driven, and valkyrie doesn't have enough destructive power to rip whiplash to shreds in a tombstone kind of way Uppercut vs Ribbot - uppercut hype is real. will we see frog bits literally embedded into glass? i sure hope so Tombstone vs Black Dragon - tombstone babeeeeeeeeeeee Bloodsport vs Tantrum - this is a bit of a tough one but i'll give it to bloodsport, i feel like they're going to go weapon-on-weapon and tantrum's fancy setup is going to break like it kinda??? did during the last fight Sawblaze vs Witch Doctor - i think sawblaze will win the low ground and that basically means witch doctor into the shovel and slammed into walls. the top armor is also not nearly enough to survive the spinner saw Mammoth vs Shatter! the ! connotes excitement - going to also go in on the mammoth hype, also i feel like the hammer itself presents a good object for the flipper to grab onto Rotator vs End Game - tough matchup but i'll believe in that well-deserved rotator durability
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Mar 3, 2021 17:07
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TomR posted:Battlebots judging seems to very much be "who do you feel won the match, now justify it" and I think for a TV show that's fine. It could be editing or technical issues, but it seems like the refs aren't consistent. Tombstone was counted out the second they lost a wheel, Kraken finishes a match on one wheel. Either way is fine to me, but if this was a "real sport" then that kind of poo poo wouldn't fly. Not to dispute your general point, but I think the rules are pretty clear on this particular bit. Crabwalking or standing still gets you counted out. If your opponent is so offensive that it's impossible to determine if either of those are going on then that's on your opponent, not the referee.
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Mar 3, 2021 17:22
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The rules are clear in this case, but I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Which fight had an aggressive opponent? Are you saying they counted out Tombstone because Skorpios was all over them? That doesn't make a lot of sense to me.
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Mar 3, 2021 17:59
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While my money's on Whiplash, Valkyrie doesn't need very much time to remove half of their wheels.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:20
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I really wanna see Tantrum go the distance, but I have no idea how its weapon is going to get through Bloodsport's weapon unless it just breaks somehow. Maybe Tantrum can throw Ribbot into the air finally. Mammoth vs. Shatter will be an amazing match, but I think on top of Mammoth being generally silly, I think it's been running out of steam. Rotator is probably going to go in very defensively, which even if it manages to not get torn up by Endgame, that could easily lose it points in aggression or damage. Sawblaze and Witch Doctor is going to be one hell of a fight, and anyone could win, but Witch Doctor has a history of fire being a bad omen, so it may come down with some motor failure. Tombstone and Black Dragon is gonna be a fun fight, but I don't think Black Dragon has enough defense or driving to escape destruction. Although considering some maybe cheating theories if Bounty Hunters competitors got knocked out, then Rotator and Bloodsport are gonna lose. MiddleOne posted:Not to dispute your general point, but I think the rules are pretty clear on this particular bit. Crabwalking or standing still gets you counted out. If your opponent is so offensive that it's impossible to determine if either of those are going on then that's on your opponent, not the referee. What counts as a crabwalk can be pretty inconsistent though, and some robots have pretty functional one-wheel maneuvers. And then there's Hijinx that is so wide that its crabwalk looks more like controlled movement which bought it enough time to win a match.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:40
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I'm sure Whiplash will do the exact same thing it did to Valkyrie like 3 weeks ago. I really want Uppercut to obliterate Ribbot in a spectacular way. Ribbot is maybe the most boring bot in the whole competition and I would love to see it get destroyed.
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Mar 3, 2021 18:57
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I didn't consider for a second that Mammoth had damaged Copperhead's weapon in any way, but I suppose y'all do have a point that the judges can't just be like "no that damage was a malfunction not real damage".
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Mar 3, 2021 19:39
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Do the rules mention crabwalking specifically? I thought Kraken was doing a pretty good job of it.
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Mar 3, 2021 19:42
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Axe backwards is the most boring because it never works. At least it's entertaining when it catches fire every time.
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Mar 3, 2021 19:47
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PostNouveau posted:I didn't consider for a second that Mammoth had damaged Copperhead's weapon in any way, but I suppose y'all do have a point that the judges can't just be like "no that damage was a malfunction not real damage". idk, if the weapon starts working again (which Copperhead’s did) then I think its pretty fair to point to a malfunction than anything caused particularly by another bot. Closest you could say would be a bot overheating when trying to push back against a pin or something similar, but I wouldn’t chalk that up to the pinning team actively doing damage.
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Mar 3, 2021 21:15
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Borsche69 posted:idk, if the weapon starts working again (which Copperhead’s did) then I think its pretty fair to point to a malfunction than anything caused particularly by another bot. Closest you could say would be a bot overheating when trying to push back against a pin or something similar, but I wouldn’t chalk that up to the pinning team actively doing damage. I don't think Mammoth did anything to Copperhead, so I look pretty dimly on that decision. Like 5-0 damage points to Copperhead there.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:36
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Have Huge or Mammoth either one had a fight where they just wrecked their opponent? Their unusual build makes it very hard to score control.
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Mar 3, 2021 22:48
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Huge has scored a bunch of KOs in years past Zach Goff said the weapon malfunction was operator error and he juiced it too fast or something Of course, the judges don't exactly know that
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Mar 3, 2021 22:49
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Halloween Jack posted:Have Huge or Mammoth either one had a fight where they just wrecked their opponent? Their unusual build makes it very hard to score control. Huge has hosed some bots up good, probably has a winning record I think maybe that fight with Copperhead was Mammoth's second win ever
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Mar 3, 2021 22:51
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Huge's weapon is pretty powerful. It tore into Bronco and Hypershock. Most of its opponents are more anxious about getting in some meaningful weapon hits than they are about getting damaged though.
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Mar 3, 2021 23:51
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PostNouveau posted:Huge has hosed some bots up good, probably has a winning record Not counting the bounty hunter episodes, Mammoth is 7-4 the last 2 seasons thus far (with 5 KOs)... Although most of their opponents have been in the B or C tier bots... Huge though is a really good bot and does some serious damage... just had some bad matchups this season with Mammoth and Hydra cheating.
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Mar 3, 2021 23:55
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With a bit of luck and favorable matchups Huge could in theory win a tournament. Mammoth would need way more luck and probably has more bots that would be hard counters to it. It would be pretty boring to only have straightforward bots that don't take any design chances so I'm glad with have both Huge and Mammoth.
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Mar 4, 2021 00:15
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TomR posted:With a bit of luck and favorable matchups Huge could in theory win a tournament. Mammoth would need way more luck and probably has more bots that would be hard counters to it. Yeah, I know we had been getting annoyed at the vertical spinner meta, so I'm really glad we've got some oddballs doing really well this year
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Mar 4, 2021 03:33
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PostNouveau posted:I don't think Mammoth did anything to Copperhead, so I look pretty dimly on that decision. Like 5-0 damage points to Copperhead there. Yeah I know. I'm just saying it from the judges' perspective. I could see scoring damage for Mammoth if Copperhead's weapon never turned back online. You could at least say that a flip or a ram or whatever caused the drum to stop working. But if it comes back online, I fail to see how you could ever attribute the temporary lapse as something that Mammoth did. Its all the more egregious that these judges are former builders - you can give them a big benefit of the doubt but something like this should be obvious to tell the difference between self inflicted and opponent inflicted.
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Mar 4, 2021 04:34
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I also heartily agree with the argument that the Copperhead guy makes in the vid regarding 'functional vs cosmetic' damage. To me, there's very little on a robot that isn't 'functional'. When you get into the semantics of that, you start getting into poo poo like 'oh well the armor was supposed to break off to protect this piece'. Sure, that's fine, but doesn't that affect your ability to defend from another hit to the same area? The point of stuff like ablative armor should be to make the robot easier to repair and take less internal damage in the fight - not so that the judges don't score damage for the other guy. I get the point of the rule - you don't want someone getting a 5-0 because he scratched paint or because some decorative LED got cracked or whatever, but it feels like some people are taking it to its logical extreme.
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Mar 4, 2021 04:42
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SlothfulCobra posted:What counts as a crabwalk can be pretty inconsistent though, and some robots have pretty functional one-wheel maneuvers. And then there's Hijinx that is so wide that its crabwalk looks more like controlled movement which bought it enough time to win a match. PostNouveau posted:Do the rules mention crabwalking specifically? I thought Kraken was doing a pretty good job of it. I feel like we're running different definitions here. To me crabwalking is when a bot is incapable of moving in anything but a circle without outside assistance and so they rock and forth between 0 and 75 degrees in a desperate attempt to move forward on momentum alone. Specifically those situations were they could never get to the other bot if left to their own devices. They're technically still moving, but they're unable to get anywhere. Kraken might have had only one wheel but it was still navigating the box on its own. I.E not crabwalking in my book. It had greatly diminished movement, but was still very much in control of it.
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Mar 4, 2021 06:05
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Here's a quick video of the checks & repairs that team Witch Doctor do between battles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_JuSaaPnAI
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Mar 4, 2021 06:23
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Snowglobe of Doom posted:Here's a quick video of the checks & repairs that team Witch Doctor do between battles: These videos as so great, also IIRC the "tale of the tape" ones. They should plug them on the show, it would take like 20 seconds. Just cut out the slo-mo black and white Billings cackling from each episode and boom, you've got your airtime 
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Mar 4, 2021 08:25
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Stumbled on this tonight at work. A college Battlebots event from like 11 years ago... With a couple familiar faces involved... Andrea Gellatly is part of the Miami U team... And Donald Hutson is mentoring 1 of the teams at the event. Also a random segment with the Whyachi crew... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8p77zh0Ajc&t=2189s
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Mar 4, 2021 13:10
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Borsche69 posted:I also heartily agree with the argument that the Copperhead guy makes in the vid regarding 'functional vs cosmetic' damage. To me, there's very little on a robot that isn't 'functional'. When you get into the semantics of that, you start getting into poo poo like 'oh well the armor was supposed to break off to protect this piece'. Sure, that's fine, but doesn't that affect your ability to defend from another hit to the same area? The point of stuff like ablative armor should be to make the robot easier to repair and take less internal damage in the fight - not so that the judges don't score damage for the other guy. The only reason it was even close is because damage is worth 5 points. damage being worth so much benefits spinners to a ridiculous degree. In theory yeah you could do no damage and win by control +aggression but since the points can be split it's nearly impossible to 3-0 either of those categories while a spinner can easily get 4+ damage points against a control bot. In a world where it's 3 points for all categories, rescore the copperhead Mammoth fight. Copperhead loses for sure since Mammoth maintained control and aggression. Copperhead may have done more damage (debatable)but it was never really in control of the fight and spent a good amount of time trying to back off and get its weapon going. By the existing rules maybe copperhead should have won. But that's less due to it's performance and more due to the advantage it's design gets from the rules.
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Mar 4, 2021 14:40
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Great Beer posted:By the existing rules maybe copperhead should have won. But that's less due to it's performance and more due to the advantage it's design gets from the rules. I suppose I'm good with that though. I want them to damage each other. If it's gonna be a field of entirely spinners, that's cool by me more parts flying around the box.
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Mar 4, 2021 14:48
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I would also like more destruction but eventually you're going to end up with a field of identical bite force / tombstone clones with the occasional huge derivative.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:52
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PostNouveau posted:I suppose I'm good with that though. I want them to damage each other. If it's gonna be a field of entirely spinners, that's cool by me more parts flying around the box. Yeah 100% agreed. Pure control/push bots aren't terribly interesting - I've seen enough of that back in the early 2000s BB/RW era. It's not like I want it to be impossible for one to win, but a pure control bot generally has the advantage due to the weight that it can redistribute and it has less things that can break (weapon motors, chains, the weapon itself, speed controllers, etc). Of course something like Duck or Tornado or Original Sin whoever is so reliable - they can use the weight they're not spending on a weapon and reinforce their armor and give themselves more internal redundancy. Given these inherent advantages, you kinda have to skew it in the direction of spinners. Even with a selection committee weeding out redundant bot designs, you'll just get more teams that want to go with a more pure wedge design (the way that vert spinners have essentially become the meta) - probably adding like a weak disc or lifter and then spending the whole match just abusing their lower, stronger wedge.
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Mar 4, 2021 15:56
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