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Gort
Aug 18, 2003


UltraShame posted:

It'd be nice if the fee for entrance wasn't "shitloads of disposable income and time" because then we'd get many more entrants, but it's not a "real" sport.

That's pretty much the definition of entrants for a real sport though

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Fish Of Doom
Aug 18, 2004
I'm too awake for this to be a nightmare




Bertha the Toaster posted:

Like someone said earlier, how bad were the fights that weren't televised?

In the first 3 seasons, they showed every fight from the top 16 on up regardless of how bad it was. In season 4, they started curating it, but since it was always a single elimination tournament, it ended with stuff not making any sense. In season 4, Gary Gin's first bot ever got 2nd place and the finals were its only televised fight. It was like, "It's the lightweight finals! We have Ziggo which everyone loves oh and some other guy who we haven't mentioned a single time the entire season," and it's really hard to care when it's aired like that. One of the bots who had won their first few fights could have been quietly eliminated off camera. So while you only got decent fights, you also had no idea what was going on in terms of following the tournament or who had beaten who.

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Great Beer posted:

Sounds like Robotica. I think it's deal was to be a midway between things like FIRST and Battlebots but it didn't do either well.

Looking up an example on Youtube, I guess the ridiculous tone mismatch I remember is there between the relatively tame events and the announcers trying to play up the violence and savagery of the little boxes on wheels, but I don't think I remember these events. Maybe they changed the events in later seasons or something. Maybe my memory just replaced them with something from Ninja Warrior.

It really makes me wonder what it was like pitching these shows to networks since there's such a difference in how the narrators want to present things and how the competitors actually are. These robots don't seem particularly designed to deal with the kind of challenges presented to them either.

Bodyholes
Jun 30, 2005



There were some great fights each season of the CC Battlebots but as a percentage, it was much lower.

Vlad vs Biohazard
Biohazard vs Son of Whyachi
Vlad vs Mechavore
Diesector vs Vladiator (both times)
Maximus vs Vladiator

Those spring to mind. Still timeless fights. Especially Biohazard vs Son of Whyachi... which is still the greatest championship match to date imo. Comedy Central were poor curators of the show. They had fake stats that had nothing to do with the judges' scorecards. They showed a tiny percentage of fights in later seasons and began skipping important top 16 fights if they felt they were boring. The new show doesn't do *everything* better but most things about it are better.

Bodyholes fucked around with this message at 01:17 on Apr 6, 2021

Fish Of Doom
Aug 18, 2004
I'm too awake for this to be a nightmare




Some other decent fights just off the top of my head

Complete Control vs. Bad Attitude, Complete Control at its best.
Dr. Inferno Jr. vs. Wedge of Doom and vs. Gamma Raptor are both driving clinics. They all wedge/lifter bots so it's basically a showcase of good driving ability.
Ziggo vs. Scrap Daddy for the total destruction
Ziggo vs. Big B for an actual good lengthy Ziggo match.
MOE vs. The Matador is the original Minotaur vs. Bronco
Hazard vs. Blade Runner is another destruction fest

UltraShame
Nov 6, 2006

Vocabulum.

Gort posted:

That's pretty much the definition of entrants for a real sport though

I was thinking of this wrong, I have a friend whose kid plays hockey and you are 100% right.

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004



Fish Of Doom posted:

Some other decent fights just off the top of my head

Complete Control vs. Bad Attitude, Complete Control at its best.

This is also a good demonstration of why we need reliable killsaws to make a return. Right now a control bots options are the useless and frequently broken pulverizers, ramming into the screws and hoping the target gets stuck, or just driving around.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Great Beer posted:

This is also a good demonstration of why we need reliable killsaws to make a return. Right now a control bots options are the useless and frequently broken pulverizers, ramming into the screws and hoping the target gets stuck, or just driving around.

Control bots are dull compared to a good damage bot though. I'd much rather see bots blown clean in half by a good spinner hit than some grabby-claw bot holding the opposing bot motionless for thirty seconds, arguing with the ref about it the whole time

Rectal Death Deft
Jan 10, 2020


Why did the announces keep claiming in their commentary that the killsaw activations were mistakes this season? I think it happened probably a half dozen times.

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004



Gort posted:

Control bots are dull compared to a good damage bot though. I'd much rather see bots blown clean in half by a good spinner hit than some grabby-claw bot holding the opposing bot motionless for thirty seconds, arguing with the ref about it the whole time

Spinner bots are dull compared to a good control bot though. I'd much rather see bots get driven circles around being slammed into walls by a good control bot than some 4wd box with a wheels and a small vertical spinner, losing it's belt almost immediately.

Plus "control bot" doesn't have to be a bot that can't do damage. I'd consider whiplash, sawblaze, and skorpios to be control bots, for example. But making the arena more deadly would be a serious boost to bots like Kraken and help push the meta away from everyone becoming Bite Force.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Great Beer posted:

Spinner bots are dull compared to a good control bot though. I'd much rather see bots get driven circles around being slammed into walls by a good control bot than some 4wd box with a wheels and a small vertical spinner, losing it's belt almost immediately.

Plus "control bot" doesn't have to be a bot that can't do damage. I'd consider whiplash, sawblaze, and skorpios to be control bots, for example. But making the arena more deadly would be a serious boost to bots like Kraken and help push the meta away from everyone becoming Bite Force.

Agree to disagree, I suppose - Uppercut destroying Sawblaze in a giant fireball was rad as hell, as was the Valkyrie vs Rotator slugging match. My ideal match is one where a bot knocks the other bot out with a weapon hit, and I find pushing matches dull. Sure, bits of bots can break (looking at you, Tombstone) but that's as true of weapons as it is of motors, wheels, batteries, and so on.

To counter the vertical spinner meta, I'd like to see rules changes like the weight of a hammerbot's hammer not counting towards the bot's weight. Let's bring other weapon types up to the feasibility of the vertical spinner.

I remember UK Robot Wars had a pit where if a robot fell in it was eliminated. It was extremely anti-climactic, and is part of why I don't want to see arena hazards be decisive in a match.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!




Functional and effective killsaws (maybe designed by the teams to be like, triple-toothed thick spinners) or an eggbeater (or two) mounted to the sides of the arena could give you destruction opportunity even once the competitors burn out or throw belts.

Hazards like that would be basically free weapon weight if you can effectively use it, even if they only turn on in the final minute.

In the past, especially in lighter classes, hazards could really make a difference and also spice up the driving battle in the case of saws.

The Glumslinger
Sep 24, 2008

Coach Nagy, you want me to throw to WHAT side of the field?




Hair Elf

Chronojam posted:

Functional and effective killsaws (maybe designed by the teams to be like, triple-toothed thick spinners) or an eggbeater (or two) mounted to the sides of the arena could give you destruction opportunity even once the competitors burn out or throw belts.

Hazards like that would be basically free weapon weight if you can effectively use it, even if they only turn on in the final minute.

In the past, especially in lighter classes, hazards could really make a difference and also spice up the driving battle in the case of saws.

Yeah, the hazards were a much bigger deal for light weight and middle weight, much less so for Heavyweight++

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Complete Control could suplex other robots, which was really exciting.

I feel like I wanna see more robots punished for being glass cannons. Like powerful spinners that do lots of damage are exciting, but it feels wrong to me if they aren't strong in other aspects, like they should have well-built drive systems, and they should be able to deal with being shaken or flipped instead of just hoping that they never have to deal with another robot that could do that.

I like to see reliability and good, useful engineering win matches.

Fish Of Doom
Aug 18, 2004
I'm too awake for this to be a nightmare




I'd much prefer a diverse meta where grabber clamp bots have a way to do damage to their opponents than something that's just endless Biteforce clones ramming into each other. Either bring back the killsaws or give non-spinners a weight advantage.

Kraken didn't have a single bad match this season. How is it boring?

Gromit
Aug 15, 2000

I am an oppressed White Male, Asian women wont serve me! Save me Campbell Newman!!!!!!!


Rectal Death Deft posted:

Why did the announces keep claiming in their commentary that the killsaw activations were mistakes this season? I think it happened probably a half dozen times.

Every now and again you see some little bollards come out of the floor but they never get mentioned and almost never come out during a fight, only during the warm-up. I've never heard them referred to ever.

Borsche69
May 8, 2014



Fish Of Doom posted:

In the first 3 seasons, they showed every fight from the top 16 on up regardless of how bad it was. In season 4, they started curating it, but since it was always a single elimination tournament, it ended with stuff not making any sense. In season 4, Gary Gin's first bot ever got 2nd place and the finals were its only televised fight. It was like, "It's the lightweight finals! We have Ziggo which everyone loves oh and some other guy who we haven't mentioned a single time the entire season," and it's really hard to care when it's aired like that. One of the bots who had won their first few fights could have been quietly eliminated off camera. So while you only got decent fights, you also had no idea what was going on in terms of following the tournament or who had beaten who.

Yeah, plus they never bothered posting a bracket at any point in time as far as I can remember.

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004



Gromit posted:

Every now and again you see some little bollards come out of the floor but they never get mentioned and almost never come out during a fight, only during the warm-up. I've never heard them referred to ever.

Those are specifically for loving with ground scraping wedges. They pop out randomly the entire fight but rarely make a difference.

halokiller
Dec 28, 2008

Sisters Are Doin' It For Themselves



I do think there could be a good balance between slightly more than decoration of Battlebots hazards and Robot Wars OP house bots.

Not gonna lie though, even the boring control bots I got excited for. Biohazard vs Vlad the Impaler is one of my favorite matches of all time because the pedigree and experience between both drivers even though neither bot could really damage each other.

Snowglobe of Doom
Mar 30, 2012

Because if I tell you, you'll tell your friends, your friends are callin' me on the horn all the time, I gotta show up at shopping centers for openings and sign autographs and shit like that and it makes my life a *hell*. Okay? A living hell.


Gromit posted:

Every now and again you see some little bollards come out of the floor but they never get mentioned and almost never come out during a fight, only during the warm-up. I've never heard them referred to ever.

Greg Munson mentions them briefly on the Yotuube interview series, he calls them "whack-a-moles"
E: discussion start at 23:00

Snowglobe of Doom posted:

New Tale of the Tape ep, there's a big interview with Greg Munson from 17:18 about the possible rules changes and arena changes they might introduce in future in response to things like Hydra's cow catcher, teams choosing not to use their primary weapon and just wedgebot a fight, etc etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntvPZBjhlNw

Snowglobe of Doom fucked around with this message at 04:41 on Apr 8, 2021

Sirotan
Oct 17, 2006

Sirotan is a seal.




Watching the Bounty Hunter eps as they air on Discovery, the newest one has Axe Backwards vs Lockjaw and I have to ask- has Axe Backwards ever not sucked? They didn't even have a weapon this time, they turned their axes into a single bar/wedge, and it did just as much nothing as the axes normally do.

Gazaar
Mar 23, 2005

.txt

Sirotan posted:

Watching the Bounty Hunter eps as they air on Discovery, the newest one has Axe Backwards vs Lockjaw and I have to ask- has Axe Backwards ever not sucked? They didn't even have a weapon this time, they turned their axes into a single bar/wedge, and it did just as much nothing as the axes normally do.

Yeah it seems like a design from CC battlebots that should've been iterated on already for the last 15 years. Instead it's just this low power sausage with gigantic weak points.

Borsche69
May 8, 2014



Sirotan posted:

Watching the Bounty Hunter eps as they air on Discovery, the newest one has Axe Backwards vs Lockjaw and I have to ask- has Axe Backwards ever not sucked? They didn't even have a weapon this time, they turned their axes into a single bar/wedge, and it did just as much nothing as the axes normally do.

a big problem with a 'full bodied drum' is always gonna be that the wheels have to be larger than the weapon so you basically get the most vulnerable part of the robot that is always in the way lol. best thing they can do is use the wedge setup (with angled slopes on the sides) and lead with that unless they're loving with something that they can just drive the drum into.

Bodyholes
Jun 30, 2005



Fish Of Doom posted:

I'd much prefer a diverse meta where grabber clamp bots have a way to do damage to their opponents than something that's just endless Biteforce clones ramming into each other. Either bring back the killsaws or give non-spinners a weight advantage.

Kraken didn't have a single bad match this season. How is it boring?

The problem I have with most of the proposals I've seen is that they don't actually hurt vertical spinners at all usually. They only hurt horizontal spinners--which are not winning and have not been since season 2. For instance a weight advantage to non-spinners hurts horizontal spinners way more since they rely purely on damaging their opponents, while vertical spinners could still toss around a brick they can't damage. The tip speed limit meant to reign in spinners doesn't hurt verts, only zants.

What some people running the show seem to fail to grasp is that vertical spinners ARE control bots. They are the best control bot. That's what makes this tricky. I think changing the arena is the best way to go.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


Borsche69 posted:

a big problem with a 'full bodied drum' is always gonna be that the wheels have to be larger than the weapon so you basically get the most vulnerable part of the robot that is always in the way lol. best thing they can do is use the wedge setup (with angled slopes on the sides) and lead with that unless they're loving with something that they can just drive the drum into.

The most successful "full bodied drum"-esque bot is HUGE insofar as it has all of the same design principles, but also saw that running the whole body as a spinner wouldn't be as effective as just doing a single blade.

Chronojam
Feb 20, 2006

This is me on vacation in Amsterdam
Never be afraid of being yourself!




Xelkelvos posted:

The most successful "full bodied drum"-esque bot is HUGE insofar as it has all of the same design principles, but also saw that running the whole body as a spinner wouldn't be as effective as just doing a single blade.

It also leaned entirely into having oversized, exposed wheels, but makes it work.

Gort
Aug 18, 2003


Chronojam posted:

It also leaned entirely into having oversized, exposed wheels, but makes it work.

It works until it meets a horizontal spinner, at which point it dies messily

MiddleOne
Feb 17, 2011



The king of exposed wheels is Tombstone.

Gazaar
Mar 23, 2005

.txt

I'm Ray asking why I'm being counted out when I have only 1 wheel.

Xelkelvos
Dec 19, 2012


One wheeled robot when?

Fish Of Doom
Aug 18, 2004
I'm too awake for this to be a nightmare




Bodyholes posted:

What some people running the show seem to fail to grasp is that vertical spinners ARE control bots. They are the best control bot. That's what makes this tricky. I think changing the arena is the best way to go.

It's definitely true that the reason Bite Force is so good is that it's Duck with a weapon. It's a compact solidly built brick, but it also has a ridiculous spinner on top.

SLICK GOKU BABY
Jun 12, 2001

A Little Known FACT: Burger King's Bacon King is superior to the Baconator.


Gazaar posted:

I'm Ray asking why I'm being counted out when I have only 1 wheel.

Seems like a legit question though, at least the way it's edited, counted out almost right away. Ray has a lot of time driving Tombstone... I would imagine he can have pretty controlled movement with 1 wheel. There was another fight with a bot with controlled movement even though they only had 1 wheel later on too (I think maybe it was Kraken?).

SlothfulCobra
Mar 27, 2011

STOP BEING EVIL.


Sirotan posted:

Watching the Bounty Hunter eps as they air on Discovery, the newest one has Axe Backwards vs Lockjaw and I have to ask- has Axe Backwards ever not sucked? They didn't even have a weapon this time, they turned their axes into a single bar/wedge, and it did just as much nothing as the axes normally do.

Once.


Its main weapon is really weak to the point that people forget that it exists and its secondary axes just don't do anything ever, and it's got those two big exposed wheels so you don't have any of the usual defensive advantages of full-body spinners.

It keeps coming back because I guess it has a pass from getting in earlier, and the driver has a good attitude about getting wrecked, but I don't know who would ever sponsor the piece of garbage.

Great Beer
Jul 5, 2004



The secondary axes aren't weapons, they're just stylized bars so it doesn't rotate in place instead of moving. Same deal as the arms hanging off the back of huge. It can technically hit with them but they won't ever do anything.

sweet geek swag
Mar 29, 2006

Adjust lasers to FUN!





Great Beer posted:

The secondary axes aren't weapons, they're just stylized bars so it doesn't rotate in place instead of moving. Same deal as the arms hanging off the back of huge. It can technically hit with them but they won't ever do anything.

Sometimes they put a bar between them and use that as a wedge. It's semi effective against horizontal spinners, but against verticals, nah.

PostNouveau
Sep 3, 2011

Why god?





Grimey Drawer


I feel like I haven't seen an online exclusive "bonus" fight yet that wasn't a sad slapfight by two barely functioning robots.

Bodyholes
Jun 30, 2005



Fish Of Doom posted:

It's definitely true that the reason Bite Force is so good is that it's Duck with a weapon. It's a compact solidly built brick, but it also has a ridiculous spinner on top.

If you'd told me 15 years ago I would think about adding a pit to Battlebots I'd never believe it, but here we are. A pit actually would bring crushers and grabbers back into the game. The same way I think some OOTA zones are good to keep flippers viable. The counterargument is that fights that might've been close entertaining 3 minute dogfights could sometimes become lame 40 second pittings.

Bertha the Toaster
Jan 11, 2009


I don't know if I'm making it up but I think the pit in BuggleBots is on a timer, it isn't active for the first minute, seems like the best way to have it. If a fight isn't over after the first minute, open up some more options to end it.

Tunicate
May 15, 2012





Instead of a pit, have an elevated mesa.

Countdown starts the moment you are on it. If you can't get off of it in 10 seconds you lose.

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SLICK GOKU BABY
Jun 12, 2001

A Little Known FACT: Burger King's Bacon King is superior to the Baconator.


Sirotan posted:

Watching the Bounty Hunter eps as they air on Discovery, the newest one has Axe Backwards vs Lockjaw and I have to ask- has Axe Backwards ever not sucked? They didn't even have a weapon this time, they turned their axes into a single bar/wedge, and it did just as much nothing as the axes normally do.

They might be a better bot if they didn't explode as soon as they got hit. Not sure though.

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