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Alhazred posted:No: SuperMechagodzilla posted:In Dark Fate, Sarah retires to a resort somewhere. She has zero worry about any sort of looming capitalist apocalypse and is really just sad that John died in a random accident. Carl was effectively just an unexploded landmine from a conflict that the characters continually insist is over and done. Sarah even straight-up says ‘we saved three billion people, what more do you want?’ - and nobody presents a counterargument. She could have just retired if it weren’t for those ICE nazis interrupting her vacation. Qualia fucked around with this message at 05:44 on Aug 11, 2020 |
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Aug 11, 2020 01:18
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:The weirdest thing about the movie to me was how Grace basically thinks Sarah is a nutjob because she claims she was the former mother of the messiah. It's a big claim, sure, but she also came out of nowhere and blew away the Rev-9 Terminator with an RPG. That and Sarah's comment about her 'just being a womb' or whatever which I thought had the writers miss the point entirely of her character. Basically it's Grace's "the mission is simple, I am expendable" versus Sarah's "everything gets complicated, and loss matters"
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Aug 11, 2020 01:23
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:So there is a fate: it doesn’t matter how many computer factories Sarah blows up, because the robots already exist. She’s already met three of them, by the end of T2, and one even stabbed her in the shoulder. Somebody has to make those robots, because somebody already did. How, and why in the world would John build "a few Arnolds" and invent time travel over 30 years before Skynet, an all powerful AI, had the ability to do so? These things were designed to kill his mother and prevent his birth, remember? Besides, in their timeline they have already passed the point of a possible paradox and are moving into an undefined future so why would he? It's not like they would get to 1997 and then Judgement Day not happening would somehow retroactively cause him not to be concieved in 1984... The first two movies are a closed time loop. T1 is a perfect loop on it's own, but T2 still (mostly) neatly fits in there because of smart implementation of the leftover pieces of the T-800 at the factory. That T-800 brain chip and arm are always found and everything proceeds as normal as part of the loop. At the end of T1, Sarah still goes to Mexico, alone, after the same set of circumstances as always, hence the photo of her from the future and the one that's taken by the kid being exactly the same. The future hasn't changed from the one Kyle Reese came from. This is highlighted, Greek chorus style, by the dialogue, music, and the fact that she's literally driving into a big ominous storm. The reprogrammed T-800 and the T-1000 in 1995 in T2 can be explained as Skynet sending multiple Terminators out to different points in the timeline to maximize their chance of survival as John Connor and his squad are busting into Skynet's main computer center and on the verge of victory in 2029. Skynet sends a weaker model (T-800) to go after the target's mother, but the more advanced model (T-1000) to take him out directly. The only problem with this explanation is the same one that lies with the original film: unless the T-800 and John Connor are sent back literally simultaneously, like, down to an unmeasurably small unit of time, the T-800 has already had 44 years to kill Sarah. But that's the suspension of disbelief factor you need to have to enjoy these movies. You could always come up with some arbitrary solution like the time travel itself not being an instant process, and that moving through time itself takes... time?. So John has a few minutes to realize what's happened, and send back Kyle and the reprogrammed T-800 to those same place and time coordinates. Or something. He knows Kyle's gonna be his dad and remembers the T-800 from when he was 9 (events of T2), so he knows what to do when he gets there. The sacrifice of the T-800 at the end of T2 is a possible breaking of the loop, it's left open ended to reinforce the theme of No Fate But What We Make, at least for this iteration of the timeline! The story structure allows for the interpretation of this being the final loop, or just another part of the same thing, which is the route T3 goes with... There is nothing in the ending of T2 that either confirms or conflicts with anything we know about the future of 2029, so it's really left up to the viewer and their outlook on humanity (and mechanics of time travel) By the way, Sarah's sense of hope at the end is that she comes full circle after temporarily attempting to kill Miles Dyson to prevent Skynet, realizes the Irony of what she's doing and stops - Dyson later sacrifices himself to prevent the creation of Skynet, as does the T-800 at the end. She has witnessed the act of self-sacrifice (Kyle initially). Instead of killing to change the future, she's seen self-sacrifice from both man and machine to save the future for humanity. The sense of hope is mercy, sacrifice and the ability to learn from our mistakes, not "angelic machines to defend the meek". The ultimate irony of Skynet is that it's simultaneously responsible for it's own birth and death. It's concept as a man-made yet intrinsically tragic Lovecraftian evil is one of the best parts of the original movies... Way more interesting then most AI antagonists. SuperMechagodzilla posted:
John died in a random accident? What? Carl kills him in the beginning of Dark Fate, three years after the events of T2.
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Aug 11, 2020 04:12
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Big Bizness posted:John died in a random accident? What? By the time he dies, nobody actually wants John Connor dead. His death doesn't represent the intrusion of an apocalyptic future into the present, but an unfortunate encounter with some unexploded ordnance sent by an adversary that no longer exists. It interprets Terminator 2 as being the story of some time cops, purging the world of future-tech artifacts. Job well done, they can now retire. Whereas I think an important part of the time-loop aspect of Terminator 2 is not just that Dyson had access to the T-800 CPU, but that he had seen the arm. Sarah calls him out on this, that he knew the scope of what he was playing with. Skynet is something that people decided to make, and the decision to make it, or not, is something that is made every day and can't be decisively won by melting some stuff in molten steel.
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Aug 11, 2020 05:06
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"With the destruction of Arnold's CPU, we have put an end to the possibility of anyone building killer robots that look like people. Well, except for the hundreds of eyewitnesses to all the crazy loving robot poo poo that just happened, and all the video recordings, and the piece of Arnold left over in the gearworks, and if any metal piece of Arnold fell off at any point (which we know they will look for), that's a technological loose end about on the scale of Scotty sharing transparent aluminum in Star Trek IV. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkqiDu1BQXY ...But we're good." "Oh and AI-controlled defense networks that we can easily lose control of? Truly impossible, no one would dream of it."
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Aug 11, 2020 05:18
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Big Bizness posted:How, and why in the world would John build "a few Arnolds" and invent time travel over 30 years before Skynet, an all powerful AI, had the ability to do so? The premise of T2 is already that John Connor has gained access to a robot factory and a time machine. Since he has done that in the future, it means he will do that in the past. Fate! Cyberdyne is blown up at the end of T2 and all its research is destroyed, but we’ve already established that the creation of AI (and time travel) is inevitable. If Cyberdyne’s robot skeletons can’t take over the world, then the implication is that the liquid-metal men will rise up instead. In order to fight the liquid-metal men who are attacking him, John must ensure that he is born. However, he was born because his mom was attacked by a Cyberdyne robot in the 1980s. Since Cyberdyne is destroyed, this means that John must use futuretech to build a replica Cyberdyne robot that will scare his mom into loving Kyle Reese. quote:John died in a random accident? What? The Terminator that became Carl was acting under orders to protect Skynet - but Skynet was completely erased from history in this story, meaning that those orders were completely pointless. He is like the mythical soldier who goes deep into the jungle for years, and never finds out the war is long over.
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Aug 11, 2020 06:27
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Which is something the Terminator says to the Rev-9, in fact.
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Aug 11, 2020 06:47
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The people making Genisys absolutely ‘got’ Terminator, because Evil John Connor’s immediate goals after winning the future war are: 1) Build a time machine. 2) Build a robot factory. 3) Convince Kyle and Sarah to gently caress.
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Aug 11, 2020 07:07
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I'm in the camp that thinks T3 was the only outright bad one. Salvation doesn't get enough credit and Genisys manages to create a pretty fun twist on the original. I like Dark Fate, but the opening scene is a huge narrative problem. First, after destroying two time traveling killer robots several years apart, there's no way Sarah lets her guard down only a couple years later. She'd be crazypants paranoid for the rest of her life. Second, Skynet sending back a T-800 to kill Sarah was always a last-ditch effort while it was losing the war, and the resistance knew it so they sent Reese back. When the postponed Judgment Day Skynet was able to send back a T-1000, the resistance also knew it and sent back a T-800. Dark Fate just handwaves that and says "I guess at some point it also sent back Carl, and the resistance had no idea." I like what they did with the rest of the movie, but its premise just isn't consistent with the plot they'd set up in the first two.
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Aug 13, 2020 22:18
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Also Linda Hamilton just drags that film down
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Aug 14, 2020 06:21
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The prologue is just incredibly misguided. Like, just some general stuff: T2 already made the point that Sarah’s nightmares are not prophecies. In T1, Kyle Reese is a prophet because he’s describing memories of future events he’s experienced. As a contrast, Sarah is fantasizing about getting obliterated in a nuclear strike. However vivid her dreams may be, she doesn’t actually know what getting nukes feels like. So, out of all the clips they could have gone with, they picked the one where Sarah is genuinely going nuts. Then the narration says “that future never happened because I stopped it - to protect my son, and to save us all.” And, well... it’s not that Sarah didn’t contribute to saving the day, but the nuclear war of 1997 is pretty definitively stopped by Uncle Bob - with some credit to John, since he built Bob and told him what to do. At this point, you may realize that - outside of the videotape of Sarah being institutionalized at the start - there are no specific references to the events T2 in this film at all. You can skip straight to this from T1 and miss nothing. And, for the nonzero number of people in the audience who haven’t seen any other Terminator film, it isn’t initially shown or explained that Terminators are cyborgs that look like humans. Why’s young Schwarzenegger murking the kid? (Kyle Reese is never brought up either.) So, altogether, every choice in Dark Fate is done to present Sarah as an absolute raving lunatic. It isn’t until fairly late in the film that it’s revealed, as a twist, that Carl The Robot actually exists. That’s almost an interesting contrast with how totally unphased Dani is by all the killer robot and time-travel stuff.
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Aug 14, 2020 08:03
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I'm reminded of the TV series which made the same issue, making Sarah able to have prophetic dreams that revealed cryptic hints of the future. It was the vogue thing to do at the time, after all -- Heroes and Battlestar Galactica all featured future-dreams as a way of circumventing writing and plotting. The TV series also never really referred to the events of the films at all. Some of the characters show up, and there's a videotape of Sarah in- Wow, I'm just taking a moment to wonder about the similarities. From what I recall, Friedman, the head of the TV series, worked on Dark Fate, too. Anyway, when I did a thread in the TV forum about the TV series, I became pretty interested in why the series could use the title Terminator and the characters but seemingly couldn't have anyone utter the word 'Terminator' in the series itself (they even changed Kyle Reese's words!), nor could terms like T-800 and T-1000 be used. Apparently, the rights are a bit of a mess, but I couldn't find much more info other than that. I can't see how it would affect a major Hollywood production, but it just came to mind given your comment about how nothing from T2 is mentioned.
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Aug 14, 2020 10:25
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Anyway, when I did a thread in the TV forum about the TV series, I became pretty interested in why the series could use the title Terminator and the characters but seemingly couldn't have anyone utter the word 'Terminator' in the series itself (they even changed Kyle Reese's words!), nor could terms like T-800 and T-1000 be used. Apparently, the rights are a bit of a mess, but I couldn't find much more info other than that. I can't see how it would affect a major Hollywood production, but it just came to mind given your comment about how nothing from T2 is mentioned.
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Aug 14, 2020 11:23
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Now that I think about it again, I think the TV series only directly used things from the first movie. Silberman shows up, but he was an invention of T1. I don't think it mentions anything to do with T2. Reference is made to Sarah's time in a mental hospital, but I don't think it was ever called Pescadero. Weird stuff. Maybe T1 and T2 are separate?
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Aug 14, 2020 11:32
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Just a moronic rights thing probably. The series Ash vs Evil Dead couldn’t mention anything from Army of Darkness even though it was clearly in continuity with it, which they worked around with implied references and heavily leveraging the last minutes of Evil Dead 2 where he does get sent back to the Middle Ages.
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Aug 14, 2020 13:32
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:Now that I think about it again, I think the TV series only directly used things from the first movie. Silberman shows up, but he was an invention of T1. I don't think it mentions anything to do with T2. Reference is made to Sarah's time in a mental hospital, but I don't think it was ever called Pescadero. Weird stuff. Maybe T1 and T2 are separate? There are multiple T-1000s in the series.
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Aug 14, 2020 14:24
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Rhyno posted:There are multiple T-1000s in the series. They're called T-1001's in the series, and the regular terminators T-888's
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Aug 14, 2020 14:33
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Seemlar posted:They're called T-1001's in the series, and the regular terminators T-888's Semantics. It's clearly a liquid metal Terminator which comes from T2.
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Aug 14, 2020 14:37
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I mean yeah of course they're liquid terminators, but there's some kind of rights tussle going on that meant they couldn't even reference something so innocuous as their proper name from the movie
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Aug 14, 2020 15:10
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Rhyno posted:There are multiple T-1000s in the series. There's exactly one - Catherine Weaver - and she's referred to as a T-1001 (in supplementary materials, not in actual show dialogue). They wanted to use T-800s but, for whatever reason, couldn't, and had to invent the T-888s as a consequence. The series appeared to have a prohibition on the specific usage of T-800, T-1000, and the usage of the word 'Terminator' to refer to a type of robot, including altering actual pre-existing lines. Come to think of it, I'm not sure 'T-888' was ever uttered in the show, either. Swing and a miss. Rhyno posted:Semantics. It's clearly a liquid metal Terminator which comes from T2. Is Alex Mack a liquid metal Terminator? Semantics is pretty much the name of the game here. Genisys also altered the T-800 design, apparently for similar reasons. It seems like the rights to the robots themselves may be separate to most of the other IP elements. Having done a bit more research, it looks like that new game specifically states in the credit sequence that Studiocanal owns the rights to the endoskeletons and the depiction of them, so, that might be it. Milkfred E. Moore fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 15:54
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Stairmaster posted:Also Linda Hamilton just drags that film down Everything drags that film down.
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Aug 14, 2020 19:27
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Milkfred E. Moore posted:There's exactly one - Catherine Weaver - and she's referred to as a T-1001 (in supplementary materials, not in actual show dialogue). They wanted to use T-800s but, for whatever reason, couldn't, and had to invent the T-888s as a consequence. The series appeared to have a prohibition on the specific usage of T-800, T-1000, and the usage of the word 'Terminator' to refer to a type of robot, including altering actual pre-existing lines. Come to think of it, I'm not sure 'T-888' was ever uttered in the show, either. You're the one that said there was nothing from T2. And the show is a direct sequel to it.
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Aug 14, 2020 19:43
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I think my favorite moment from the series was when that one Terminator just suddenly headshots a major character without breaking his stride, and it isn't dwelled upon or a highly dramatic moment. It's just one slip-up and the machine gets you and keeps moving onto its primary target. I couldn't believe what I saw at first. I wish more character deaths happened like that in shows.
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Aug 14, 2020 19:52
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For the entire Terminator universe to work, Kyle needs to gently caress Sarah and have John. You don’t need Skynet. Instead evil AI is an inevitable conclusion as time marches on. Time travel and AI will intersect but it doesn’t have to be the exact same AI. That is why John in Genysis says that Kyle, Sarah and he are like on an island of time and everything revolves around them. And you don’t have the same Skynet, you have Genysis or Legion or whatever. If the future is hunky dory then John would still need to have a time travel machine and convince a civilian Kyle to go back and bang his mother. All the while someone is advancing AI. If it wasn’t for casting if Kyle and Sarah maybe Genysis could have been so much better. Although I still think Khaleesi Conner works Edit: I guess SMG is right Gatts fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Aug 14, 2020 |
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Aug 14, 2020 21:20
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Alhazred posted:Everything drags that film down. The first twenty minutes owned.
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Aug 14, 2020 21:48
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Stairmaster posted:The first twenty minutes owned. No, that part was also bad.
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Aug 14, 2020 23:04
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You are wrong.
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Aug 14, 2020 23:06
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Rhyno posted:You're the one that said there was nothing from T2. And the show is a direct sequel to it. I adore how there are always Something Awful users who are so willing to walk into a discussion, talking with such an expert affect, while revealing they don't have a clue about the topic in question.
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Aug 15, 2020 00:32
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Gatts posted:For the entire Terminator universe to work, Kyle needs to gently caress Sarah and have John. You don’t need Skynet. Instead evil AI is an inevitable conclusion as time marches on. Time travel and AI will intersect but it doesn’t have to be the exact same AI. Also, Kyle has to specifically mate with Sarah during ovulation for this to work out. If Skynet sends that Terminator back even a couple of days earlier or later, John Connor probably never exists.
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Aug 15, 2020 01:45
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Alhazred posted:No, that part was also bad. It was the worst part!
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Aug 15, 2020 01:57
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iamsosmrt posted:Also, Kyle has to specifically mate with Sarah during ovulation for this to work out. If Skynet sends that Terminator back even a couple of days earlier or later, John Connor probably never exists. It's more specific than that because the movement and fluctation of splooge means what sperm creates the zygote is incredibly random. Like our births are one in a million possibilities.
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Aug 15, 2020 03:51
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Stairmaster posted:It's more specific than that because the movement and fluctation of splooge means what sperm creates the zygote is incredibly random. Like our births are one in a million possibilities. “John Connor” is obviously a series of different people in the various movies
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Aug 15, 2020 05:47
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sticklefifer posted:First, after destroying two time traveling killer robots several years apart, there's no way Sarah lets her guard down only a couple years later. She'd be crazypants paranoid for the rest of her life. I want to see a Terminator movie where there isn't any time travel, it's just Sarah blowing up any Cyberdyne-like companies/military contractors that crop up because she thinks it's the only way to be sure. Queering Wheel fucked around with this message at 06:38 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 06:35
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Queering Wheel posted:I want to see a Terminator movie where there isn't any time travel, it's just Sarah blowing up any Cyberdyne-like companies/military contractors that crop up because she thinks it's the only way to be sure.
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Aug 15, 2020 08:37
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Payndz posted:A whole movie from the POV of the investigator hunting a terrorist blowing up high-tech factories, and only in the final scene is it revealed that the terrorist is trying to stop time-travelling killer robots from being invented. She fails, and in the last shot is killed by a time-travelling killer robot: The Cloverfield Terminator. This might unironically be the freshest Terminator reboot idea I've read
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Aug 15, 2020 15:55
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The prologue is just incredibly misguided. sarah is empathizing about getting obliterated to the point of self-induced psychosis. showing her genuinely going nuts is by far the best clip to have gone with; it avoids languishing in unnecessary exposition whilst getting to know the character. she's an unreliable narrator and it's key to understanding her mental health/state-of-mind. t1 to t6 is straight sequel without the 'fluff', just a poo poo-ton of implication. t1 -> t2 -> t6 makes for more meta, but introducing t2 begins the process of over-thinking the whole shebang (i'd be surprised to see anyone jump from t2 to t6 of their own volition). for the first-time viewer, t3, 4 and 5 are by far the least necessary of the sextology to watch assuming you only have the time &/or desire to watch a couple or few. Payndz posted:A whole movie from the POV of the investigator hunting a terrorist blowing up high-tech factories, and only in the final scene is it revealed that the terrorist is trying to stop time-travelling killer robots from being invented. She fails, and in the last shot is killed by a time-travelling killer robot: The Cloverfield Terminator. VVV yaasss Qualia fucked around with this message at 16:57 on Aug 15, 2020 |
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Aug 15, 2020 16:37
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The movie Uncut Gems, in its entirety, but at the end there's a black screen with white text, indicating that Julia was unknowingly pregnant with Howard's baby and that she would give him up for adoption where he would be given the name KYLE REESE. Then THE TERMINATOR music starts playing over the credits.
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Aug 15, 2020 16:42
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Qualia posted:sarah is empathizing about getting obliterated to the point of self-induced psychosis. showing her genuinely going nuts is by far the best clip to have gone with; it avoids languishing in unnecessary exposition whilst getting to know the character. she's an unreliable narrator and it's key to understanding her mental health/state-of-mind. The issue is which character we’re getting to know. There was a deliberate choice made to roll Sarah Connor’s characterization back to where it was around the end of T1 and start of T2: she’s crazed and hates robots, complaining about the patriarchy without the anticapitalism, etc. Remember that T2 criticized Sarah for her TERF-like ideology. She was all ranting about how the enemy will never understand what it’s like to push a living baby out of your womb, and if you can’t give life then you can only bring death, etc. John’s like “chill out, mom. Jesus Christ.” - and, to her credit, Sarah does chill out. Her arc in the movie is that she finds Christ. So this isn’t just a preference. The makers of Dark Fate specifically omitted the part where Christ dies for her sins and Sarah is converted. That’s a political choice, and it can’t be fully attributed to rights issues. iamsosmrt posted:Also, Kyle has to specifically mate with Sarah during ovulation for this to work out. If Skynet sends that Terminator back even a couple of days earlier or later, John Connor probably never exists. Dark Fate actually halfasses a thing where ‘John Connor’ is, like, a title: “she’s John!” So the stage is still set for a John Connor to send back a Kyle Reese.But the rest of the film isn’t tight enough for this to work as a ‘twist.’ It’s just vague to the point that you can assume whatever.
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Aug 15, 2020 18:54
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The issue is which character we’re getting to know. There was a deliberate choice made to roll Sarah Connor’s characterization back to where it was around the end of T1 and start of T2: she’s crazed and hates robots, complaining about the patriarchy without the anticapitalism, etc. remember that the director of dark fate is tim miller, who brought Deadpool to screen, a character who is all about them 4-wall thought-bubble breaks. the movie feels very 'hail Satan' to me, and the lack of the Jesus i can understand being a valid critique
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Aug 16, 2020 05:14
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Sir Kodiak posted:The movie Uncut Gems, in its entirety, but at the end there's a black screen with white text, indicating that Julia was unknowingly pregnant with Howard's baby and that she would give him up for adoption where he would be given the name KYLE REESE. Then THE TERMINATOR music starts playing over the credits. I maintain that it should be a by-the-numbers Rom Com where two awkward strangers meet and develop a relationship until the third act where the partner turns into an unstoppable robot murderer once it confirms its target.
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Aug 17, 2020 20:12
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