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Phssthpok
Nov 7, 2004

fingers like strings of walnuts

What if the real eye of the universe is actually the friends we made along the way?

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GENUINE CAT HERDER
Jan 2, 2004




Wedge Regret

Phssthpok posted:

What if the real eye of the universe is actually the friends we made along the way?

Oddly enough, this is actually like the one time that stupid joke actually works. Willing all your friends back into existence by controlling probability and having one last jam session at the End Of Everything really was kinda bittersweet.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Also, how hosed up do you think Solanum is? Her consciousness is basically trapped on the north pole of the quantum moon forever but only when it is around the eye of the universe. Anywhere else, she's just dead. Does she know that everyone else in her life died while she was doing her pilgrimage to the quantum moon?

Also, if they knew that the quantum moon could orbit the eye of the universe under certain circumstances, why didn't they bring something there that would help them located it normally? Or bring pieces through that building and construct a ship on the north pole and fly to the eye? I feel like they could have done something to help figure out where it was.

Ablative
Nov 9, 2012

Someone is getting this as an avatar. I don't know who, but it's gonna happen.

Cojawfee posted:


Also, if they knew that the quantum moon could orbit the eye of the universe under certain circumstances, why didn't they bring something there that would help them located it normally? Or bring pieces through that building and construct a ship on the north pole and fly to the eye? I feel like they could have done something to help figure out where it was.

Leaving the moon's atmosphere at the sixth location just dumps you back in system where you entered from. As for the first point, they did try to track it when it went there, nothing they built could manage it.

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

If you shoot your probe to the Quantum Moon, once it hits the atmosphere it can no longer be tracked. Presumably, the same thing happened to their sensors as to yours. There are a bunch of logs (and some of Solanum's conversations) that talk about how they tried everything they could think of to use the Quantum Moon to access or locate the Eye, but were always stymied.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Cojawfee posted:

Also, if they knew that the quantum moon could orbit the eye of the universe under certain circumstances, why didn't they bring something there that would help them located it normally? Or bring pieces through that building and construct a ship on the north pole and fly to the eye? I feel like they could have done something to help figure out where it was.
Like all quantum objects the moon's only actually orbiting something if you can see it. So to use the moon as a reference point to find the Eye you first have to find the Eye then look for the moon somewhere around it.

AndrewP
Apr 21, 2010

Ball Hard Enough.


Apropos of nothing but one of the coolest moments of my playthrough was about halfway through, when I was piecing together the Ash Twin Project and then realized I could use a projection pool to watch inside the Ash Twin core at the end of the loop. What a moment when the music ends and the warp core is unveiled and fires up. I hadn't figured out how to actually get in there yet, but it was a finally a real glimpse into this massive mystery.

TK-42-1 posted:

VR mod out. I haven't gotten a chance to try it tho.

I don't think I could handle most of this game in VR. Maybe Timber Hearth.

Pigbuster
Sep 12, 2010



Fun Shoe

AndrewP posted:

Apropos of nothing but one of the coolest moments of my playthrough was about halfway through, when I was piecing together the Ash Twin Project and then realized I could use a projection pool to watch inside the Ash Twin core at the end of the loop. What a moment when the music ends and the warp core is unveiled and fires up. I hadn't figured out how to actually get in there yet, but it was a finally a real glimpse into this massive mystery.

...god, of course that would work.

Phssthpok
Nov 7, 2004

fingers like strings of walnuts

Can I get a hint?

I think I have been everywhere except the Ash Twin Core.

I have jumped into the eye from the sixth location but it didn't seem to do anything except lock me out of the sixth location.

I have the coordinates and can reach the Vessel.
The advanced warp core in the Vessel is broken. Can I repair it or replace it with a new one?

The high energy lab has extra warp cores and can direct energy into pairs of them.
The advanced warp core looks like it might fit in the twin-core socket.
Is there enough time to get the damaged warp core from the vessel and bring it to the high energy lab and back?

What about the advanced warp core in the Ash Twin Project?
I can't get into the Ash Twin Core. I think the only way in is through the warp tower with the broken ceiling. The warp panel has an intact warp core and looks like it is working, but I cannot stay on the panel.

luxury handset
Jan 24, 2018

THE DEM DEFENDER HAS LOGGED ON


Phssthpok posted:

Can I get a hint?

The advanced warp core in the Vessel is broken. Can I repair it or replace it with a new one?


yes, you can

Phssthpok posted:


The high energy lab has extra warp cores and can direct energy into pairs of them.
The advanced warp core looks like it might fit in the twin-core socket.
Is there enough time to get the damaged warp core from the vessel and bring it to the high energy lab and back?





Phssthpok posted:


What about the advanced warp core in the Ash Twin Project?
I can't get into the Ash Twin Core. I think the only way in is through the warp tower with the broken ceiling. The warp panel has an intact warp core and looks like it is working, but I cannot stay on the panel.


keep trying. you very nearly have figured it out

the part you are stuck on is easily the most complained about puzzle in the game but you only have the one thing left to figure out, and you're almost there

Krazyface
Jul 15, 2011

A: to get those sweet first-place bonus points



Hair Elf

You're extremely close.

As a general hint, keep in mind that for any warp panel there's a window of just a couple seconds where the bodies are aligned just right; as long as you can just TOUCH the panel in that time, you're good. Also note that it doesn't matter which way you're facing; the note in the White Hole station that talks about looking up was just so that the player could see which planet they were getting warped to.

Or, if you want something more explicit, you've got to hide under the bridge until the ash column is directly overhead, then run onto the panel. You'll start to get sucked upwards, but if you time it right, you'll get warped out of there. Once you've done it once, you'll understand it much better.

Microcline
Jul 27, 2012

For every
volunteer
an opportunity.



A lot of the remaining confusion would be reduced if the sand stream twisted like a cyclone to make it clear it has an eye in the center

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003





Part of the issue is that you don't want people solving the problem until quite late. That's why they've decided to put the new heavy hints inside the Black Hole Forge - it's a location that people almost always get to towards the end of the game.

Rynoto
Apr 27, 2009
It doesn't help that I'm fat as fuck, so my face shouldn't be shown off in the first place.

MikeJF posted:

Part of the issue is that you don't want people solving the problem until quite late. That's why they've decided to put the new heavy hints inside the Black Hole Forge - it's a location that people almost always get to towards the end of the game.

I made it to that location super early by having found the button to raise the forge itself and then ramming the ship into the platform upside down until it let me land near the forge. So not perfect but a hell of a lot better. Also I still judge the game harshly for the Core puzzle just because it's the only teleporter that acts differently in that they're supposed to require alignment to the body you want to go to and yet the core which is always in alignment requires its twin to be overhead instead which is just nonsensical.

Phssthpok
Nov 7, 2004

fingers like strings of walnuts

Rynoto posted:

I made it to that location super early by having found the button to raise the forge itself and then ramming the ship into the platform upside down until it let me land near the forge. So not perfect but a hell of a lot better. Also I still judge the game harshly for the Core puzzle just because it's the only teleporter that acts differently in that they're supposed to require alignment to the body you want to go to and yet the core which is always in alignment requires its twin to be overhead instead which is just nonsensical.

Yeah if there were teleporters to any other moons then maybe the mechanic could have been introduced better.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003





Yeah I was talking about the latest version of the game (Jun 19th) which revised the text in the forge to straight up say "both of the teleporters for the twins align based on the line between the two planets"

MikeJF fucked around with this message at 07:47 on Jul 19, 2020

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Rynoto posted:

I made it to that location super early by having found the button to raise the forge itself and then ramming the ship into the platform upside down until it let me land near the forge. So not perfect but a hell of a lot better. Also I still judge the game harshly for the Core puzzle just because it's the only teleporter that acts differently in that they're supposed to require alignment to the body you want to go to and yet the core which is always in alignment requires its twin to be overhead instead which is just nonsensical.

If you went there early enough, you might have missed the latest patch where they have a better explanation. Where they explain that the teleporters are based on the center of each planet. The center of the ash twins is the barycenter which is in the space between them. Also, the teleporters work plus or minus 5 degrees off from the center which gives you more time to get to each teleporter.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles


Cojawfee posted:

If you went there early enough, you might have missed the latest patch where they have a better explanation. Where they explain that the teleporters are based on the center of each planet. The center of the ash twins is the barycenter which is in the space between them. Also, the teleporters work plus or minus 5 degrees off from the center which gives you more time to get to each teleporter.

I think that actually contributes to some of the difficulty, because at least in my case, since the alignment could be off by 5 degrees, and exact alignment would be in the centre of the column, I was sure I was being told "don't try to be inside the column". I thought waiting on the platform would mean I'd hit that 5 degree alignment just before the column hit me.

I don't think it would hurt to have something like this on the Sun Station:
Idaea: Ramie, I appreciate the novel design of the towers on Ash Twin, but the delay it has added to the construction is...irritating.
Ramie: Why, Idaea? What's the problem?
Idaea: The problem? I am being pulled off the warp platform by the sand column because you haven't finished the roof yet!
[aside] Idaea: This is like the fifth time it has happened, and I'm sick of it.
Ramie: But that shouldn't be an issue for your tower. You're not just loitering around on the platform waiting for your alignment, are you?
Idaea: It's not like I have much else to do while I'm waiting. If the tower had a roof, it would save me having to continuously check for my alignment.
Ramie: The roof will be finished soon. Until then, you'll just have to step on while the aligment is occurring.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

I think any supplementary explanation that isn't outright stating how it works will only make the puzzle harder, since the problem is that people are spectacularly overthinking it in the first place. Without the fluff you'd just think it's a puzzle straight out of early Myst and get it immediately. "Whoa, a place with one themed teleporter tower per planet, gee I wonder why there's twin towers for the twin planets".

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles


Chev posted:

I think any supplementary explanation that isn't outright stating how it works will only make the puzzle harder, since the problem is that people are spectacularly overthinking it in the first place. Without the fluff you'd just think it's a puzzle straight out of early Myst and get it immediately. "Whoa, a place with one themed teleporter tower per planet, gee I wonder why there's twin towers for the twin planets".

The problem for me the stumbling block in the problem definitely wasn't "I wonder why there's twin towers for the twin planets", it was specifically "The sand column seems to make Ash Tower unusuable". I knew which tower was the entrance in the nomai's time, the problem was actually using it.

Upmarket Mango
May 21, 2011


I beat this last night after buying it a month ago. Got a solid 29 hours out of it and yet it feels like I spent no time at all with it. Definitely gonna try and get all the achievements so that number will go up.

I don't really have much to comment on the story, I thought it was very engaging and touching at times. I guess the only thing I'm a little confused about is at the very end what point do the rest of the Hearthians learn of your fate and how did they survive the supernova in regards to the museum? Is that just quantum magic pulling stuff from your brain and the museum isnt "real"?

Great game though. I really hope they make another, with a bigger solar system, bigger planets, animal life???,

I didn't want this to end

Zerilan
Jan 11, 2008

I have to believe I can do this.







Upmarket Mango posted:

I don't really have much to comment on the story, I thought it was very engaging and touching at times. I guess the only thing I'm a little confused about is at the very end what point do the rest of the Hearthians learn of your fate and how did they survive the supernova in regards to the museum? Is that just quantum magic pulling stuff from your brain and the museum isnt "real"?

Yeah, it's that.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

Upmarket Mango posted:

I beat this last night after buying it a month ago. Got a solid 29 hours out of it and yet it feels like I spent no time at all with it. Definitely gonna try and get all the achievements so that number will go up.

I don't really have much to comment on the story, I thought it was very engaging and touching at times. I guess the only thing I'm a little confused about is at the very end what point do the rest of the Hearthians learn of your fate and how did they survive the supernova in regards to the museum? Is that just quantum magic pulling stuff from your brain and the museum isnt "real"?

Great game though. I really hope they make another, with a bigger solar system, bigger planets, animal life???,

I didn't want this to end

I think it's just that museum and forest are created as a construct to allow you to recreate the universe. You go to the eye of the universe, but the sun still explodes and everyone dies. None of the people at the end are real, they are just pulled from your mind as people that were important to your journey.

Devils Affricate
Jan 22, 2010


Upmarket Mango posted:

Great game though. I really hope they make another, with a bigger solar system, bigger planets, animal life???,

This game already had more than enough animal life imo

AndrewP
Apr 21, 2010

Ball Hard Enough.


RE: Ash Twin Project - I'll admit I had to look up some of the finer points of accessing it, but I'm actually glad it's as hard as it because I think it's crucial that the player doesn't get there until the end. Wish I could have fully gotten in there alone but it was still a hell of a reveal that wouldn't have had nearly the same punch if I had stumbled into it early.

The main thing is I didn't know *running* into the center as it passed was any different than standing on it and letting it wash over me. One works, one just gets you sucked up.


e: though I guess you're already in the middle of it since you're under the bridge... ooooh now I get it.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Reveilled posted:

The problem for me the stumbling block in the problem definitely wasn't "I wonder why there's twin towers for the twin planets", it was specifically "The sand column seems to make Ash Tower unusuable". I knew which tower was the entrance in the nomai's time, the problem was actually using it.
That's the stumbling block for most people though, which is why all fixes tend towards overexplaining it and only making it confusing.

Why did you feel it seems to make it unusuable though? It's not like the sand column is an instant kill. Like, sure, the first time you're gonna get swooped to the ember twin but all that should do is convince you the next time you need to use the surroundings and/or jetpack to be on the teleporter at the right time.

cock hero flux
Apr 17, 2011





i literally just stood on it and it worked, the idea that it was even a puzzle at all is baffling to me

Regy Rusty
Apr 26, 2010



Grimey Drawer

You just have to use a bit of critical thinking to work it out if you don't get it by accident. I don't think it needs anything else to hint towards the solution.

Reveilled
Apr 19, 2007

Take up your rifles


Chev posted:

That's the stumbling block for most people though, which is why all fixes tend towards overexplaining it and only making it confusing.

Why did you feel it seems to make it unusuable though? It's not like the sand column is an instant kill. Like, sure, the first time you're gonna get swooped to the ember twin but all that should do is convince you the next time you need to use the surroundings and/or jetpack to be on the teleporter at the right time.

When I discovered that the teleporters should work within 5 degrees of alignment I thought "ah OK, so the trick is I need to be standing on the platform beforehand, so I'll be within the window before getting pulled up by the sand. When that didn't work I figured "OK, so the sand column must cover the entire 5 degree alignment. Since this is the only tower that's affected by the sand column, I guess that's there deliberately to stop me using the tower to access the project. I need to find another way in."

Zodack
Aug 3, 2014


Similarly, I think there doesn't need to be any extra help. It's a combination of critical thinking, using clues you've discovered already, and testing. For me, the process was:


I know each tower represents a planet, and the dual towers has one for Ember and one for Ash. You can test the one for Ember...
Weirdly, the one for Ash has a broken roof and is the only tower that has a broken roof. I wonder why that is? Game-play wise, it hints at the period being during the sand column. To confirm, I just stood on the platform for the rest of the loop to see if there was any other point.
From there, you just need to figure out a way to stand on the platform during the sand, or touch it during that window. Obviously standing straight on it is out.
But weird, there's a small closet right next to it that keeps you safe from the sand...

a ha!


Alternatively, you could just stick your probe to it and it'll teleport into Ash Twin during the sand column window, confirming the theory as well. Sticky feet, I guess?

In my opinion from both an in-game perspective with the knowledge it gives you, and from a "this is a video game" perspective, it isn't too hard to figure out. Plus, heck, it's the last big important puzzle in the game.

Khanstant
Apr 5, 2007

HONKING IS VIOLENCE


Phssthpok posted:

Can I get a hint?

The high energy lab has extra warp cores and can direct energy into pairs of them.
The advanced warp core looks like it might fit in the twin-core socket.
Is there enough time to get the damaged warp core from the vessel and bring it to the high energy lab and back?



Wow, this question and logic actually made me realize that the weird timing requirements of the Big Event are probably explicitly done so you can't have time to attempt what you were thinking here.

Phssthpok
Nov 7, 2004

fingers like strings of walnuts

Reveilled posted:

I think that actually contributes to some of the difficulty, because at least in my case, since the alignment could be off by 5 degrees, and exact alignment would be in the centre of the column, I was sure I was being told "don't try to be inside the column". I thought waiting on the platform would mean I'd hit that 5 degree alignment just before the column hit me.

I don't think it would hurt to have something like this on the Sun Station:
Idaea: Ramie, I appreciate the novel design of the towers on Ash Twin, but the delay it has added to the construction is...irritating.
Ramie: Why, Idaea? What's the problem?
Idaea: The problem? I am being pulled off the warp platform by the sand column because you haven't finished the roof yet!
[aside] Idaea: This is like the fifth time it has happened, and I'm sick of it.
Ramie: But that shouldn't be an issue for your tower. You're not just loitering around on the platform waiting for your alignment, are you?
Idaea: It's not like I have much else to do while I'm waiting. If the tower had a roof, it would save me having to continuously check for my alignment.
Ramie: The roof will be finished soon. Until then, you'll just have to step on while the aligment is occurring.


That would have been more consistent with other challenges.

Most of the puzzles in this game are either (a) "find an alternate way around a blocked path" or (b) "use a planetary hazard to your advantage instead of your detriment". And sometimes in the course of investigating (a) you find a clue telling you how to do (b) instead. But the ash twin teleporter really looked like an instance of (a), and I spent about 10 hours scouring the solar system for an alternate route. But it turned out to be just "dodge the planetary hazard" instead of using it to your advantage.

Phssthpok
Nov 7, 2004

fingers like strings of walnuts

Khanstant posted:

Wow, this question and logic actually made me realize that the weird timing requirements of the Big Event are probably explicitly done so you can't have time to attempt what you were thinking here.

It would be pretty cool to be able to operate the Black Hole Forge and High Energy Lab for their original purposes. There is some kind of manipulator at the front of the Forge that looks broken. I tried putting empty warp cores into it and then lowering it into the black hole.

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

That would be really cool. One of my weird brain things is that, when a game takes place after a civilization died out, I always want there to be a way to experience these places as they were back then. Oblivion made me wish I could see the Ancient cities as they were when the Ancients were alive, and Breath of the Wild made me wish I could have seen castle town and other places before Ganon destroyed everything. But I guess there wouldn't be much game if everything was all hunky dory and there wasn't some monster to defeat.

MikeJF
Dec 20, 2003





The selfish part of me wants a sequel set in the Blackrock system of Gloaming, the place that the Nomai found that was a stable haven.. The rest of me knows that this is all done and over and that's the best package.

Chev
Jul 19, 2010


Switchblade Switcharoo

Reveilled posted:

When I discovered that the teleporters should work within 5 degrees of alignment I thought "ah OK, so the trick is I need to be standing on the platform beforehand, so I'll be within the window before getting pulled up by the sand. When that didn't work I-
I'm cutting there because it works, as long as you maintain yourself in position with the jetpack. But truth to be told, I'd already assumed the sand column would cover the whole alignment, because obviously it would, and to me that meant it was a puzzle to solve, not an obstacle preventing me from using the thing at all. It's even correctly telegraphed according to the game's visual standards because if a mechanism isn't meant to be used by the player it's always broken, but the teleporter is clearly intact and online..

K8.0
Feb 26, 2004

Her Majesty's 56th Regiment of Foot

Personally I thought there had to be a way to reverse the sand column. Chert even mentions this as a thing that happens, so it seemed to me that this had to be the solution, perhaps triggered by something in the HEL. Overall I think it's a really poorly designed puzzle, because while there are other puzzles you can solve through similar means, none of them have an intended solution that works like that. And one of the other two late-game locations has a similar sort of intended solution - the black hole forge intends for you to visit two planets to access it. And the ending of the game works that way as well.

K8.0 fucked around with this message at 17:50 on Jul 19, 2020

Cojawfee
May 31, 2006
I think the US is dumb for not using Celsius

I think all they needed to do was have a casual mention somewhere of "Hey I got sucked up into that column of sand. Did you know it's just a ring shape? there's nothing in the middle of it." Or maybe even make it cyclone shaped to give you a hint that there might be an eye in the middle that you can stand in to tie it into giant's deep. Every other hint they put in is kind of clear based on basic observations, but the actual solution to the puzzle and reason is never made clear anywhere unless you just randomly figure it out on your own.

Phssthpok
Nov 7, 2004

fingers like strings of walnuts

Maybe if you start a new game and use the jetpack in the zero-g cave to get to Ash Twin before the statue activates (which is synchronized with the probe launching), then the hazard won't be flowing against you yet.

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The Cheshire Cat
Jun 10, 2008



Fun Shoe

Cojawfee posted:

I think it's just that museum and forest are created as a construct to allow you to recreate the universe. You go to the eye of the universe, but the sun still explodes and everyone dies. None of the people at the end are real, they are just pulled from your mind as people that were important to your journey.

Yeah, it's this. A very key piece of evidence is that if you never went to the quantum moon, Solanum won't be there in the ending, because you never met her.

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