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SirPablo
May 1, 2004



Pillbug

June was in Gilead for what, five years? And she was on that stand for maybe ten minutes.

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BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


Where did they get the new batch of handmaids? Commander Lawrence even points out how much more behaved they are, having grown up in Gilead. So where are they getting new ones? Can't be many more divorced mums to press into service?

And what is the long term life of a handmaid like? Let's say there is a handmaid who produces a string of babies. Then hits menopause. What happens to her? Unless there is some reward in the future if you serve your time in a red dress, why would any of them even try? Die today, or die after 15 years as a sex slave? Who would not choose die today?

Normy
Jul 1, 2004

Do I Krushchev?




Commanders giving up their fertile "daughters" into sex slavery?

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011



SirPablo posted:

June was in Gilead for what, five years? And she was on that stand for maybe ten minutes.

She basically recapped the whole show. Like wtf just fire up Hulu and show them.

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


BattyKiara posted:

And what is the long term life of a handmaid like? Let's say there is a handmaid who produces a string of babies. Then hits menopause. What happens to her? Unless there is some reward in the future if you serve your time in a red dress, why would any of them even try? Die today, or die after 15 years as a sex slave? Who would not choose die today?

You're thinking this with a mind that hasn't been steeping its entire life in an oppressive theocracy. After a certain point, people's conception of morals are going to be completely hosed and the new batch of handmaids buys into the whole sacred duty thing rather than being forced into it.

Lum_
Jun 5, 2006

Ask me about nerfing your paladin!

DasNeonLicht posted:

The twisted theology of Gilead has always been one of the most interesting aspects of The Handmaid's Tale for me — if the Sons of Jacob we're not mainline Protestants or Baptists — what real-world equivalent were they?

There is none; Atwood made it clear it was a splinter of Christianity that was spawned from the fertility crisis. "Sons of Jacob" and "Rachel And Leah Center" come from the biblical story of Rachel, Leah and Jacob in Genesis which is the theological justification for Handmaidens. Other new syncretic religions were referred to as well, the "libertheos" were a militant liberation theology Catholic sect that had taken over Central America.

Out of all the difficult-to-believe things in this series, a fertility collapse creating hosed up cults is probably the least difficult to believe. If anything, the latest season doesn't hammer home exactly how much of a blow June's spiriting away a plane full of kids really was - that may well have been all the children for a given state. But the series has kind of devolved from "fertility has collapsed, women are now chattel in a post-apocalyptic reaction" to a more general girlboss June saves the world every week and gets everyone around her killed in the process narrative.

Lum_ fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jun 8, 2021

SirPablo
May 1, 2004



Pillbug

The June Osborn Ugly Cry Hour

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

Definitely foreseeing a “Hannah for June” thing going on in the finale. Can’t remember if it was someone here or elsewhere who predicted that, but it seems very likely to me now. Then maybe the transport they’re taking her back in gets attacked by the resistance group (I forgot their name).

SirPablo
May 1, 2004



Pillbug

How about June kills Waterford and becomes a prisoner in Canada? The irony!

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

This is worse than the red text.


Nick really is a stealth wizard.

Stalins Moustache
Dec 30, 2012

~~**I'm Italian!**~~

BattyKiara posted:

Where did they get the new batch of handmaids? Commander Lawrence even points out how much more behaved they are, having grown up in Gilead. So where are they getting new ones? Can't be many more divorced mums to press into service?

And what is the long term life of a handmaid like? Let's say there is a handmaid who produces a string of babies. Then hits menopause. What happens to her? Unless there is some reward in the future if you serve your time in a red dress, why would any of them even try? Die today, or die after 15 years as a sex slave? Who would not choose die today?

I can't remember where I read this (Might have been the sequel book The Testaments?) but for the sinful handmaids, it's straight off to the colonies for them to work to death once they aren't able to make children anymore. As for the actual pious ones - no idea. Maybe econowife or becoming a Martha?

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

It seems pretty pointless to send obedient handmaids off to the colonies when you have all these black-clad soldiers and intelligence agents who want wives.

SixFigureSandwich
Oct 30, 2004


Exciting Lemon

SirPablo posted:

How about June kills Waterford and becomes a prisoner in Canada? The irony!

I'm pretty sure she's going to try and assassinate Serena after converting her support group to a terrorist cell lmao

enki42
Jun 11, 2001
#ATMLIVESMATTER

Put this Nazi-lover on ignore immediately!


Halloween Jack posted:

It seems pretty pointless to send obedient handmaids off to the colonies when you have all these black-clad soldiers and intelligence agents who want wives.

Do they want infertile wives though? (and especially ones who by the hosed up morals of Gilead are probably considered 'damaged goods'?) Seems like a post-menopausal handmaid wouldn't be exactly a coveted position in Gilead.

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

I think the fascists want to rape someone without regard for their fertility, yeah.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

This is worse than the red text.


Anyone think June goes from "save my daughter from Gilead" to "thank you so much for bringing me a few pictures of my daughter" pretty quickly?

Vanderdeath
Oct 1, 2005

I will confess,
I love this cultured hell that tests my youth.





mcmagic posted:

Nick really is a stealth wizard.

I know it will never happen but goddamn I just want Nick to get murked already. I don't care how much Max Richter-esque violin music you play over them, show, I am never going to like that creepy motherfucker.

mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

This is worse than the red text.


Vanderdeath posted:

I know it will never happen but goddamn I just want Nick to get murked already. I don't care how much Max Richter-esque violin music you play over them, show, I am never going to like that creepy motherfucker.

Is there anyone watching this show who buys into the Nick/June romance?

Escobarbarian
Jun 18, 2004




Grimey Drawer

I doubt it, but there’s a bunch of people writing it that seem to

Halloween Jack
Sep 11, 2003

Let your word be "Yes, Yes" or "No, No"; anything more than this comes from the evil one.

Nick is the most realistic character in the show, because he's exactly the kind of amoral fuckup that becomes an intelligence agent. Works for a nation dedicated to raping kids, while also being just conflicted enough about it to get his child bride drowned in a pool.

Owlspiracy
Nov 4, 2020




how the gently caress are random commanders visiting canada now

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003







Owlspiracy posted:

how the gently caress are random commanders visiting canada now

I mean the Waterfords did it in earlier seasons. They Canada/Gilead thing isn't like a full out shooting war.

Owlspiracy
Nov 4, 2020




socialsecurity posted:

I mean the Waterfords did it in earlier seasons. They Canada/Gilead thing isn't like a full out shooting war.

yea but when the waterfords did it was a Big Deal and was part of normalizing relations as part of a specific diplomatic trip - and then later as soon as Waterford crossed into Canada not on that trip he was arrested. now rando commanders are popping in for... reasons?

Lum_
Jun 5, 2006

Ask me about nerfing your paladin!

Owlspiracy posted:

yea but when the waterfords did it was a Big Deal and was part of normalizing relations as part of a specific diplomatic trip - and then later as soon as Waterford crossed into Canada not on that trip he was arrested. now rando commanders are popping in for... reasons?

One would assume a Commander being on trial with the ICC would be a big deal that would prompt visiting dignitaries to be allowed to visit the prisoners.

(One would also assume a Commander being on trial with the ICC wouldn't loving be let off the hook for promises of spilling info that may or may not be relevant but that would require better writing)

In retrospect, the series really should have ended with Waterford's capture. It's been downhill ever since.

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011



Lum_ posted:

One would assume a Commander being on trial with the ICC would be a big deal that would prompt visiting dignitaries to be allowed to visit the prisoners.

(One would also assume a Commander being on trial with the ICC wouldn't loving be let off the hook for promises of spilling info that may or may not be relevant but that would require better writing)

In retrospect, the series really should have ended with Waterford's capture. It's been downhill ever since.

I'd be fine with last week's being the series finale. You needed June confronting Fred in court and laying bare what was done to her. Even the extremely dark ending of that episode would hurtle this series back into horror territory and leave it there.

I was actually hoping they'd dangle letting Fred off in exchange for information but yank it back at the last second. I guess that can still happen but it seems unlikely.

SirPablo
May 1, 2004



Pillbug

The Canadian border is 2000 miles long. You can't just build a wall along it!

Wafflecopper
Nov 27, 2004

I am a mouth, and I must scream



SirPablo posted:

The Canadian border is 2000 miles long. You can't just build a wall along it!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Wall_of_China

Owling Howl
Jul 17, 2019


I do not give a poo poo about the Waterfords. Write them out and forget about them.

timp
Sep 18, 2007

Everything is in my control


Lipstick Apathy

Okay goddamnit. How much does Luke know about June and Nick?? I've been waiting for her to come clean to him ever since they were reunited. Did I miss that? Are we to assume she told him everything, including that time they hosed all over the Boston Globe for a weekend?

The writing is so all over the place that I can't tell if I was just on my phone and missed a scene or if they really are just ignoring the dissonance here. I know Luke knows that they had sex to try to get her pregnant and that Nick has helped her secretly in the past, but does he realize the extent of their relationship, and the fact that she still clearly has feelings for him?

If he knows, I could see Luke chalking it all up to the fact that June was a prisoner and clearly not in a mental state where you could blame her for falling in love with a sympathetic accomplice, especially if she was already attracted to him. Luke is an extremely reasonable and patient guy so I could see him forgiving her.

If he doesn't know and June is keeping it a secret, which is what it seems like, I wish they would make that a little clearer somehow. I thought it was so weird that the cliffhanger last episode was "I need to tell you about the last time I saw Hannah" instead of "I need to tell you about me and Nick"

But either way, I feel like we deserved to see that scene instead of, like, literally any Waterford scene maybe

In conclusion: OOOOOFF

Normy
Jul 1, 2004

Do I Krushchev?




Luke was told that Nicole was "conceived in love" in a letter June got out of Gilead if I remember correctly.

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


So Nick remarried, did he? Another child bride?

Dolphin
Dec 5, 2008

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


Holy poo poo that episode was bad

flashy_mcflash
Feb 7, 2011



BattyKiara posted:

So Nick remarried, did he? Another child bride?

Sounds like it. Are there any available women that June has not gotten killed that would be shocking for him to have married?

Dolphin
Dec 5, 2008

by Jeffrey of YOSPOS


The US government giving immunity for crimes against humanity in exchange for useless information actually has a very long historical precedent though

BattyKiara
Mar 17, 2009


flashy_mcflash posted:

Sounds like it. Are there any available women that June has not gotten killed that would be shocking for him to have married?

I'm just surprised they give him another bride when he couldn't control the last child bride.

socialsecurity
Aug 30, 2003







BattyKiara posted:

I'm just surprised they give him another bride when he couldn't control the last child bride.

You know at first I thought it was dumb how they haven't taken over Chicago with seemingly how little defenses it had, then I remembered Nick was in charge of that so it all made sense.

Onomarchus
Jun 4, 2005



I've got to say I haven't seen a season of TV improve this much in a long while. (Bojack Horseman maybe?) Not that it's perfect or like season 1 now, but the first half of season 4 was dire, really only worth it for "I'm not a mushroom." OK, that line did justify those 5+ hours, but now the episodes are good and each worth watching, imo. Anyway I was originally just going to try to make fun of this show but now it's earned its way back to being worth debating and, yes, picking some nits.

My current take based on my viewing (and some history), Gilead is not at war with Canada though it is tense like US and Germany in early WW2, German was the single most common ethnicity in America during WW2, WW2 started without America being in it and much of the country wanted to stay out, people love Fred and Serena now pretty much solely because of their pregnancy and the validation it brings, the court was the ICC not a Canadian court, the court proceeding was like a jury-less informal grand jury determining whether Fred gets indicted (i.e. not a trial), and given the fertility devastation and the USA becoming Gilead you have to expect courts work differently in this alternate reality (beyond, you know, giving license to it being TV). Adding in what some people contributed from the book(s) the Sons of Jacob sounds like a combination of the Council on Foreign Relations and the Promise Keepers. I don't want to E/N up the thread, but the Sons of Jacob and the Commanders it gave rise to remind me way, way, way, way too much of my own father for comfort. (In other words, they are disturbingly realistic.) Anyway, it's not really a religious denomination at all; observation I had during a previous season: we have yet to see a Gilead worship service in a Gilead church. (Revival type minister in Serena's mom's house, Nick's wedding during a group marriage ceremony, and that community festival presenting the local newborns to the various castes don't count.)

Still, there's not really an answer to all the points raised because the show is known for reversing itself, dropping threads, or doing things that make no sense. Two examples. One season (last?) built Nick up as some important guy in the military that had secretly done something super sinister. I figured he was the guy who killed the President or bombed the Supreme Court or whatever it was. The reveal never came or I missed it. It might get quietly ignored forever or it might be the twist in the next episode. Harder to wriggle out of: is the war or even just the Chicago front being run by the Boston Council? You'd think the DC bigwigs, including whoever the next two-star High Commander is, might have a bigger say in it.

flashy_mcflash posted:

Sounds like it. Are there any available women that June has not gotten killed that would be shocking for him to have married?

Holy poo poo, I didn't think of it till you asked, but there's High Commander Winslow's (unknowing) widow, the one with the umpteen stolen/rape-produced kids. Maybe that would strain credulity, but this show is still this show.

Remy Marathe
Mar 15, 2007




timp posted:

Okay goddamnit. How much does Luke know about June and Nick?? I've been waiting for her to come clean to him ever since they were reunited. Did I miss that? Are we to assume she told him everything, including that time they hosed all over the Boston Globe for a weekend?

There was a point in a prior season where Luke and Nick even met in Canada and discussed their common interest (June's survival). It was contentious at the time but Luke totally already knows about Nick as the "other man" and has probably come to terms with the idea that she loves them both, as much as a person can.

The recent scene where Luke raised the idea of using Nick for intel, I couldn't tell if he was doing it out of mean-spiritedness or was choking back his pride to involve someone he knew could help with Hannah. I suspect the latter. Either way he knows June loves Nick, but might not know specifically where they hosed or where she stands now.

Onomarchus
Jun 4, 2005



I'm such a silly goose I forgot my main problem still. These Canada-based characters are supposed to be at least semi-intelligent, and one's a bio professor I think, so why has no one seemed to realize that Fred evidently impregnating Serena implies he could easily be Nichole's biological father? It's such an obvious plot point I assume the writers are holding it in reserve for the finale where newly free and Canada-supported Fred sues June for custody or visitation.

And Nick could have married Serena's mom, I guess, but that would be even sillier (but less exciting?) than him marrying the Winslow widow.

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mcmagic
Jul 1, 2004

This is worse than the red text.


I really hope that June doesn't just trade herself back for Hannah and end up back in Gilead.

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