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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Yikes.

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rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Preparing for any 2nd Ed. fight when you're higher than 8th level:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dxICJHd518&t=32s

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Verisimilidude posted:

*starting to buff up in bg3 with a 5e ruleset*

Bless, protection from ev- oh, I can only concentrate on one buff at a time? Well, I guess I'll stick with bless then. I have all these other cool spells I would love to use...
In my first 5e game I played a halfling necromancer. I cast Protection from Evil and Good on myself (evil attackers have Disadvantage). I cast Chill Touch on an enemy, which gave it Disadvantage to attack me. On the next round, I didn't want to cast or attack, so I asked if I could do total defense. Yes, of course, Dodge. It gives attackers Disadvantage to attack you.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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ProfessorCirno posted:

BG2 made crafting good by just making it extended itemization rather then customizable crafted stuff. In a sense it basically wasn't a crafting system - it was just that obtaining speific items took multiple steps.
Yes, BG2's crafting wasn't systemic in any sense.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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MoaM posted:

Is there somewhere I can read the rulebook, or is it a buy-only thing?

Just look up 5e SRD and you'll find a few sites that can let you read the rules.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Arivia posted:

except bg2, siege of dragonspear, nwn1, etc etc etc

edit: also the gold box games continued to be 1e long after 2e was the current edition
BG2 and NWN were developed right at the changeover from 2nd to 3E. Siege of Dragonspear is an anomaly. The Gold Box games were developed under SSI for TSR. TSR isn't WotC.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Rookersh posted:

BG3: The Black Hound was nothing like BG1/2.
To be absolutely clear, at no point did I want The Black Hound to be called BG3 or BG anything. I worked on that game for close to two and a half years under working titles and eventually The Black Hound before Interplay decided it should be called Baldur's Gate III.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Nissin Cup Nudist posted:

no one would be mad at all
This is never true.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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itry posted:

Fun fact: PoE was supposed to be turn-based but most of the backers voted against it.
You may be thinking of Tides of Numenera. We never considered TB for Pillars of Eternity and we only added TB post-launch for Deadfire.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Again, to be clear, The Black Hound was never intended to be a BG game in spirit or name. I was the sole designer on it for well over a year and it was designed to be its own thing (insomuch as a party-based 3.5 game in the Dalelands can be its own thing). Interplay put "Baldur's Gate III" on the front of the name against the objections of the team.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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It used the same tech that Van Buren (cancelled Fallout 3) used, so it was a 3D engine with a rotating camera. The levels were all custom geometry and had pre-baked lighting with the ability to override that with dynamic lighting. We were trying to contrast the look of NWN, which was tile-constructed and used purely dynamic lighting.

It was 3E D&D (not 3.5 as I wrote earlier) and focused heavily on faction and companion (16, probably too many, honestly) relationships. Combat was a big focus, RTwP, though I had wanted a TB toggle (at that time, it was effectively impossible for me to get anything made TB as the sole gameplay mode). I had wanted to incorporate climbing, jumping, and a lot of skills that got less limelight in the IE games.

It had a lot of small communities, one big community (Archenbridge), and a few mid-sized communities like Highmoon. And a ton of dungeons. Too many, really. The scope was enormous. I have no idea when that dang game would have been done. The art pipeline was a headache, but the levels did look quite pretty for the time.

The main character was a blank slate, which was more popular back then than it is now. You became the guide of a British isles-style black hound that was attempting to haunt the antagonist for her misdeeds while she got up to more epic misdeeds. In that sense, there were some superficial similarities to the opening of Pillars, but the rest of the plot was completely different.

E: Also, the tone was more serious overall and the themes were more mAtUrE.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Bholder posted:

Weren't parts of Black Hound used for Dark Alliance or I misremember things?

Not as far as I know... ?

Maralie Fiddlebender (from IWD2) was a companion in The Black Hound, but that's about it.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Yeah, AD&D didn't require much system knowledge to break, especially as implemented in BG1. Even without metagame knowledge about items, making a "good" fighter was as simple as getting a good percentile 18 Strength + 18 Con + 18 Dex, putting on heavy armor, and maxing out weapon specialization as quickly as possible. Even for spellcasters, BG's spells could usually be easily divided into "destroy everything" and "do nothing worthwhile".

BG2 pulled from the Spell Compendiums and some other splat books to build their core mage battle mechanics, but character building and equipment selection were still really straightforward.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

[it was changed shortly after release]
Yes, it was changed in 1.03, the first patch after release day.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Meyers-Briggs Testicle posted:

ive always wondered what those balancing decisions are like. was it a known issue before release? or did someone read initial reports of players saying "hell yes slicken is OP"

is there some kind of spreadsheet saying "watch out for players reporting spells x y and z as being overpowered"?
We knew that spell was powerful but it had not come up as a HOLY poo poo WAY TOO MACHO! issue until after launch.

Sometimes we have debates about the relative power/perceived power of individual spells/powers/items and watch for community discussion around them after they go live.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Anno posted:

Obsidian’s focus on world building and proper nouns gave me so much more to work with in terms of creating a character that felt right in the world in a way that I thought about constantly. It was just a different level of investment.
I've said this before, elsewhere, but the front-loading of lore in Pillars 1 (specifically) was me trying to recreate the feelings I had reading through 1st and 2nd Ed. AD&D setting books before actually making a character. I remember getting the Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk boxed sets and reading through all of the books inside multiple times before I ever made a character in a campaign. When I did, I really felt like I had a sense of who I was making in the world. Those details stuck with me well enough that even 25 years later I was able to make a 3.5 Greyhawk character with just a little bit of brushing up on the setting.

I don't think that is "the way" to build or present a world, and by Deadfire we pulled back a lot (especially in character creation) on the text, but that was the goal I had with the first game. I understand why some players don't like it and why other developers don't build/present their settings in that way.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Nephthys posted:

As someone who actually only got around to finishing Deadfire a few days ago I can confirm that the ending is one of the weakest in any rpg I've ever played.

It didn't help that my faction rival was apparently Aeldys who had the DUMBEST motivation for being the final villain ever (seriously she thought she could steal THE WHEEL OF REINCARNATION wtc), but you still just show up on Ukaizo, flip a switch, win a ridiculously easy fight, talk to Eothas and watch him finish the game. It really is not a fun or climactic ending to a game at all. Even fighting Thaos was better. THAOS!
We received a lot of feedback after Pillars 1 that Sun in Shadow was too long of a dungeon and that the Thaos fight was both a big difficulty spike and grueling enough that a fair number of people (anecdotally, at least) just gave up. For that reason, we made Ukaizo pretty short, made the Guardian fight optional (I think it's reasonably challenging if you choose to do it), and intentionally made the rival faction confrontation a pushover. In retrospect, I over-corrected.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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The only reasons we were able to do iterative writing passes on Deadfire were because we had scheduling data from Pillars 1 to work with and we had 5 full-time writers (in contrast to 2 on Pillars 1). Everything took longer to do on Pillars 1 because we built up the engine from the basic Unity middleware package. On most games, we have more writers and we have an engine that's already built to handle branching, conditional dialogue.

Regardless of quality differences, it's not reasonable IMO to compare the scope of Pillars 1 to other Obsidian games. Other than Pathfinder: Adventures, it's the lowest budget game we've made to date. I mean, you can still think the writing sucks, but the scope was much smaller than anything else we had done at that time.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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We can always do better with time management, but I don't know if HZD is an appropriate comparison. That game had a €45 million budget and was in development for 6 years, 4 in full production.

I have a pretty good sense of when things are going to be out of scope and when more time is needed, but I don't dictate our timelines, our budgets, or even our feature sets.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Yes, Novac/REPCONN/Helios One was the first region we built for F:NV. Dyrford/Clîaban Rilag was the first area we built for Pillars. Tikawara/Poko Kohara was the first area we built for Deadfire. I always try to pick something near the middle of the game so if there are problems we can't work out, the dip in quality will be less noticeable.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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It's an older book and a bit outdated, but Angus Fraser's The Gypsies covers the origins and European history of the Romani pretty comprehensively. It helps to understand a lot of the confusion about their origins, European nomenclature, and the murky differences between Romani ethnicities and the "Gypsy"/"Traveller" way of life that has been adopted elsewhere, e.g. the UK and the United States. It is frustratingly complicated and a lot of people (especially in the US) are wholly ignorant of the complexities around the terms.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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ANOTHER SCORCHER posted:

A lot of people don’t actually play D&D, they just read the books and imagine themselves playing.
Literally, literally (based on industry data) 50%.

It drops to about 20% for any non-D&D TTRPG.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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The old TTRPG industry joke goes, "You know to make a small fortune in the tabletop RPG market? Start with a large fortune."

WotC and Paizo make (some) money on D&D/Pathfinder and most other TTRPGs either lose a colossal amount of money or don't make much. Meanwhile, Steve Jackson uses Munchkin profits to continue making 4th Ed. GURPS book I'm not sure anyone buys.

rope kid
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Chairchucker posted:

I hope they don't limit the number of cool things we can wear tbh.
A/D&D has been doing this with rings forever.

I think Attunement is good because it doesn't necessitate getting rid of items, item types, etc. and it addresses the potential for obscene stacking without requiring stacking rules. You can collect and keep all of the goodies you find, you just can't benefit from them all simultaneously.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Avalerion posted:

Heavy armor in kingmaker is kind of a trap anyway because
code:
3E
Actually that's not exactly true. Medium armor is the true trap.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Captain Oblivious posted:

Please stop inventing fictional armor classes.
As a game developer, the most annoying thing about trap options is that to implement them, people actually have to put time and effort into the art, description, bug-fixing, etc.

So you can have concept artists, modelers, texture artists, and riggers create 1/3 of your armor options as trash that players are supposed to ignore. Cool!!!!

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Fruits of the sea posted:

The BG1 npcs each have at most, a couple conversations over the course of the 40+ hour game. Half of those interactions are quest related, and most of the rest are inter-party conflicts where they try to kill each other or ditch the party.

It'd be wrong to say they are a blank slate, but they aren't terribly detailed characters either. That's not necessarily a bad thing, sometimes less is more when it comes to writing. The player knows everything they need to know about Edwin, Shar-Teel or Minsc after meeting them for the first time.
This is what we were going for with the sidekicks in Deadfire, but the feedback on them was overwhelmingly negative. When people remember all of the companions in BG1 and BG2, they either forget or missed all of the characters who had very little dialogue outside of their intro conversations and voice sets.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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I like Xan. :kiddo:

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Taear posted:

To go back to the discussion about BG1 - at least for me when BG1 was released there'd not been any RPGs for absolutely loving ages.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Blockhouse posted:

anyone who worships Shar is going to be an rear end in a top hat almost by definition
I really don't think this is necessary given Shar's ideology. Sharrans are supposed to work covertly and heavily utilize intrigue, which is difficult if you're a raging dipshit at first blush. Shar is a hateful deity, but it's more of a festering bitterness than aggressively lashing out openly at everyone.

I've always thought psychokiller Sharrans seemed incongruent with her vibe.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Deltasquid posted:

Gary Gigax' vision in 1988
I think the d20 at the core of combat goes back to the original Dungeons & Dragons in '74. Chainmail used d6s.

d20 for non-weapon proficiency checks started in 1st Ed. Oriental Adventures, Dungeoneer's Survival Guide, and Wilderness Survival Guide (mid-80s).

And yes, some people are fanatically attached to having a d20 at the core of checks.

rope kid
Feb 3, 2001

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Mordaedil posted:

d20's are usually preferred over d10's because d20's are fairer dice. All d20's are created using a very specific geometric shape, while d10's can vary by printer and be kinda unbalanced.

inthesto posted:

While I believe that quality of d10s is far more variable than d20s
d10s are not regular polyhedrons, but they are isohedral. There is a theoretical difference in rolling an isohedron that is not a regular polyhedron, but it's just that: theoretical. Unless you roll your dice, chart the results, and find an actual difference, it doesn't matter. And even if you do find an actual difference, it also probably doesn't matter. Even d20s that tend to favor certain numbers still usually gravitate around a 10.5 average. That's in part because of the way the numbers are distributed across the die. It's why people recommend not using countdown d20s to roll: the material biases of the individual die will be more pronounced and pull the average.

http://www.markfickett.com/stuff/artPage.php?id=389

All dice vary in design by manufacturer: overall size, face size, point and edge treatment, casting material, and, when opaque, filler. When I've received bags of defect dice, d20s by far have the highest representation. Of the standard D&D dice, d20s are the most complicated and have the smallest faces. Even if they don't have visible defects, they often have bias. I don't particularly care, personally. If I wanted ultra fair dice (which, let's be honest, most players wouldn't perceive the distribution of anyway), I'd use CNC dice from Norse Foundry or just stick to d6s and play GURPS.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 05:34 on Nov 28, 2020

rope kid
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piL posted:

Two or more dice begin to emulate a normal curve, which is fine when that's what you want to do, but it causes very specific effects, so using multiple dice should be an intentional choice.
...

This makes the meaning of a +1 at any given point less obvious and that clarity is the point of a d20.

Many things follow a normal approximation, and normal approximations are good when you intend for effects to diminish as you move away from the mean, but it can be less intuitive and really changes the underlying math.
Humans have been using multiple dice for gaming for about 4,500 years. D&D has used multiple dice / dice pools for everything from ability score generation to fireball damage for a long time. And as previously mentioned, there are plenty of other TTRPGs and CRPGs that use a fixed number of multiple dice or scaling dice pools. It's not an usual concept and I think the effect it has on probability is only meaningful if it impacts the choices that a player makes.

Are players still going to try to stack bonuses as high as they can whether the core resolution mechanic is 1d20, 2d10, or 3d6? Judging by every game I've seen/played in, yes. Is the character with the highest bonus always going to be the one who attempts the action? Yes. Will players balk at attempting certain high difficulty actions because of the die curve? Maybe.

Most players don't really view the flat distribution of a d20 or a d100 rationally. When you say "this will succeed on a roll 4 or higher on d20" many players roll with incredible confidence and are stunned when a 1, 2, or 3 comes up. 15% is a significant chance of failure, but it doesn't register that way. In D&D, especially at low levels, when you're a specialist in an area and the die doesn't favor you, it feels lovely. That's why people are talking about this. It's not about the rational analysis of probability. If you're rolling 2d10 and you will succeed on a roll of 4 or higher, you have a 97% chance of success. Failing is 1/5th as likely as it would be on the d20.

Conversely, rolling 15+ always feels unlikely, whether you're on a d20, 2d10, 1d12+1d8, or 3d6. Is it particularly significant that rolls of 15+ start to diverge dramatically with more dice? I don't think so, because the player already knows their chances are not good and are not expecting success. If the roll required is something lower, like 12 or 13, the differences between the distribution are small enough that most players will not register the difference.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Nov 29, 2020

rope kid
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change my name posted:

That's one minor change that Larian implemented that I really like: putting your to-hit chances up as percentiles. It makes it much clearer whether what you're attempting to do is reasonable or not.
Clear or not, players are not rational about percentages. They never are.

Even in a game like Disco Elysium, I'd argue that the sting of blowing a check with a nominal 3% chance of failure (rolling a 2 on 2d6) would feel less devastating if it were represented as "3 or higher on 2d6". To most people, rolling a 2 on two six-sided dice feels much closer/more probable than "3% chance of failure".

rope kid
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piL posted:

It's used in dice games of old to fog up probabilities to make gambling less certain. Its used in simulation when things are expected to follow that distribution, like fires of warships.

I just don't understand the point if its already been balanced and if you're selling DnD.
No edition of Dungeons & Dragons is particularly well-balanced, IMO, and it seems like an odd argument to make, broadly, when Larian has said, "Hey our fans hate the RNG!"

quote:

The value of a a d20 is the uniform nature for the DM; mainly because the DM has an easier time identifying what a +1 or +2 will do, and its easier to anticipate a linear progression path when following. A DC 22 compared to a 20 is an equal change of difficulty as a 16 to an 18 and its easy for them to spit off.
This is of zero benefit to me as a GM/DM. I don't care at all. Most games give sample difficulty targets and the DMs/GMs adjudicate around the examples. Progression is largely defined by the game designers. As the characters progress through a campaign together, the mechanics define how widely specialists, generalists, and abstainers are separated numerically. There's rarely a need to freestyle random bonuses or penalties in a system that covers almost anything you can think of comprehensively.

quote:

This isn't a useful feature in the video game because there's no DM, so sure, axe it. But nothing you described as benefits don't also happen if you just lower low-end DCs by 2/increase high-end DC by 2, or make skill checks fixed value gates.
Moving DCs within a flat distribution is not the same as moving DCs within a curved distribution when characters' skill values are relative to those targets. And also, this is about feeling rather than the rational recognition of odds -- which again, players are very bad at accepting even when they're extremely clear.

quote:

But why is 2d10 the right number? Why not 3d6+1? Why not 3d7-1? Why not 4d5? 10 coins? A floating point pull from a Normal(10.5, 4.2)?
Tuning is done for feel. When players say, "This feels lovely," saying, "Well the percentages are clear," or "This is the way the rules have always been," doesn't address the criticism. When you tune for feel and the players say, "Yes, this feels good," you stop. That's subjective, but so is the criticism saying, "This feels lovely."

quote:

I think ultimately, because you're selling dnd which has has used the d20 as an icon for a long time. There's a value to making something that matches what people remember playing years ago but can't now, or is like a popular rpg podcast, or what they see when they're inspired to buy a PHB and some dice are all far more important to the product's aesthetic than changing the RNG method.
It's never been easier to play D&D. I have a weekly campaign with high school friends that I play in from 2000 miles away. There are a ton of VTTs to play on, free and paid. Anyway, I think placing aesthetics over feel is a bad call - bad for Larian, bad for WotC, bad for every D&D designer who has cargo cultishly pulled mechanics and stats through multiple editions without asking why they're doing it. It's why paper has been twice as expensive as parchment for five editions even though it makes zero sense.

It's worth noting that from a development perspective, while it may not be trivial to allow 2d10 as an optional core resolution mechanic, it would not be particularly difficult.

rope kid fucked around with this message at 21:31 on Nov 29, 2020

rope kid
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Turds in magma posted:

What the hell is the point of being a wizard?!! What is the point of 5e DnD?!!?! I don't want loving WoW where every class gets balanced into some homogeneous mush.
Wizards not being able to Maximize Bless of Magic Caster for five minutes straight before every fight = all classes are the same, actually.

rope kid
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When I was working on IWD1, there was a section of the game that half (roughly) of QA was getting blocked by, which was the Idol fight in Lower Dorn's Deep. One of the testers got really angry in the bug feedback and came to my office to complain to me about the difficulty. He said that it was "literally impossible" to get through the fight. I said, "Not for me," and I turned to one of our designers, Kihan Pak, and asked him. He said it was also fine.

The tester was really mad and demanded to see how I did it. I fired up the game, went to the transition point, and started casting all of my buffs from longest duration to shortest. The process took, IDK, 30-45 seconds at least. The tester was mystified. "What are you doing?"

"Pre-buffing... ?"

"How often do you do this?"

"Before every big fight, pretty much."

Kihan nodded and said, "Yeah, every big fight."

This divide started to typify different types of players and designers at Black Isle: those who pre-buffed (and floated through the game) and those who didn't (who suffered every step of the way). There's nothing particularly clever or brain-busting about pre-buffing. It's just seeing the utility and performing the same rote actions -- give or take one or two optional variations -- every time. Which is why people wind up automating it as much as possible. And at that point, if it's just becoming part of the expected party capability before every fight with no opportunity cost, why does it need to exist?

rope kid
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Shockeh posted:

I genuinely don't know the solution
Well, for whatever other issues it has, 5E figured out the solution. In Pillars and Deadfire, we used another (less elegant, IMO) solution, which was that most buffs were marked as Combat Only. Some people complained, but I saw much more feedback that said, "I'm so glad I don't have to pre-buff for ages in every fight" (though in Pillars you could still wind up doing that with food -- changed in the sequel).

rope kid
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Nickoten posted:

I'm not sure I'd agree that 5e effectively combats pre-buffing. The point of pre-buffing is to 1) save on action economy when combat starts, accomplishing more in the same amount of time, and 2) be able to leverage an existing buff during your first action. These things still hold true for 5e, it's just that you're casting one major buff each per spellcaster and you're casting spells other than buffs when combat begins. It's far less than 2e or 3.5e, sure, but the extra steps are still there and it's still kind of an annoying thing to do.
I've been playing D&D since Basic starting in 1985 and 5E's approach to pre-buffing/Concentration is what I prefer in both tabletop and CRPGs. I actually think being able to do some mild prep is nice and enjoyable. I just don't want it to dominate the combat experience like it did in 1st/2nd/3X.

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rope kid
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Nickoten posted:

I agree with what I think are both of your conclusions (that 5e does it better than many versions of D&D and concentration is a good idea); I just don’t think 5e is really there yet and I’m not sure how having played since Basic is a supporting point to what you’re saying.
It's not a supporting point. I said it was my preference. What was unclear about that?

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