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Hello everyone, I wanted to try something new and inventive. By that I mean old and overdone. But I'd like to think I've put an interesting twist on this. The conceit of this ranking is to rate quarterbacks based on how often they over perform or under perform based on the average QB of the era. By finding the average quarterback's win rate when his defense performs above average, and below average I can see how other quarterbacks compare based on this average quarterback and come up with the amount of wins they are expected to get, versus the amount of wins they actually get. For an example, let's take Andrew Luck this season. The average defense gave up a shade more than 23 points per game, so a good defense would give up 23 or less points in a game, and a bad defense would give up 24 or more points in a game. Andrew Luck and the Colts went 11-7, and they had 9 games where the defense gave up more than 23 points, and 9 games where they gave up 23 or less. Crunching the numbers over the whole season, we can see that QB's won games where the defense gave up 24+ points 21.83% of the time, and they won games where the defense gave up 23 or less points 75.18% of the time. Putting those numbers in, Luck would be expected to win 8.73 games, but he won 11, so his Wins above Average was 2.27 last season. So after doing all the work from 1966 to 2017 (I excluded 2018 because I started working on this before the 2018 season was over), I came up with a list of 102 quarterbacks for this study. To qualify I needed a large enough sample size so my conditions were: 1. Must have 90 or more starts since 1966. Starts before then do not count towards the player. (after curating the list. Tom Brady's first game of 2008 does not count as a start for him since he broke his leg in the first quarter) 2. If condition 1 does not apply, must have 80 or more starts in the dead ball era (14 game seasons means I still get roughly 5.5 seasons worth of starts) 3. Any QB who was close who I found interesting enough to warrant merit got a bump. This was literally just one guy, and then once I curated his starts, turns out he had exactly 90 after all. I sorted these guys based on four eras, to compensate for rule changes and how the meter for good defense changed based on the era. So 1966-1977 (Dead Ball era), 1978-1989 (Live Ball era), 1990-2003 (Live Ball era part 2), and 2004-2017 (Golden Age) were the divides I used to sort players. If your defense gave up 22 points in 1995 it'd be considered a bad performance, but if they gave up 22 in 2005, it'd be a good one. In any case, let's start the ranking. Current List: Tier 7: Garbage (2 or more wins below the average starter a season) 102. Archie Manning (New Orleans Saints) (-2.886) Tier 6: Career Backup (1-2 wins below the average starter a season) 101. Chris Miller (Atlanta Falcons and St. Louis Rams) (-1.335) 100. Jeff George (Indianapolis Colts, Atlanta Falcons and Oakland Raiders) (-1.162) 99. Ryan Fitzpatrick (Rams, Bengals, Bills, Titans, Texans, Jets, Bucs) (-1.123) 98. Steve DeBerg (San Francisco 49ers, Tampa Bay Bucs, and Kansas City Chiefs) (-1.055) 97. Norm Snead (Philadelphia Eagles, and New York Giants) (-1.028) Tier 5: Journeyman (0.5-1 wins below the average starter a season) 96. Jon Kitna (Seattle Seahawks, Cincinnati Bengals and Detroit Lions) (-0.865) 95. Ron Jaworski (Philadelphia Eagles) (-0.841) 94. Vinny Testaverde (Tampa Bay Bucs, Cleveland Browns, Baltimore Ravens, New York Jets) (-0.807) 93. Jim Harbaugh (Chicago Bears, Indianapolis Colts, and San Diego Chargers) (-0.790) 92. Ken O'Brien (New York Jets) (-0.743) 91. Kerry Collins (Carolina Panthers, New York Giants, Oakland Raiders and Tennessee Titans) (-0.713) 90. Jim Everett (Los Angeles Rams and New Orleans Saints) (-0.602) 89. Greg Landry (Detroit Lions) (-0.586) 88. Lynn Dickey (Green Bay Packers) (-0.533) 87. Steve Beuerlein (Arizona Cardinals and Carolina Panthers) (-0.530) 86. Joe Ferguson (Buffalo Bills) (-0.507) Tier 4: Average (0.5 wins above to 0.5 wins below the average starter a season) 85. Aaron Brooks (New Orleans Saints) (-0.414) 84. Steve Bartkowski (Atlanta Falcons) (-0.413) 83. Daunte Culpepper (Minnesota Vikings) (-0.282) 82. Doug Williams (Washington Redskins) (-0.270) 81. Trent Dilfer (Tampa Bay Bucs and Baltimore Ravens) (-0.261) 80. Drew Bledsoe (New England Patriots, Buffalo Bills and Dallas Cowboys) (-0.253) 79. Richard Todd (New York Jets) (-0.249) 78. Jim Zorn (Seattle Seahawks) (-0.211) 77. Chris Chandler (Arizona Cardinals, Houston Oilers and Atlanta Falcons) (-0.117) 76. Jeff Blake (Cincinnati Bengals) (-0.110) 75. Jake Plummer (Arizona Cardinals and Denver Broncos) (-0.025) 74. Bernie Kosar (Cleveland Browns) (0.000) 73. Dan Pastorini (Houston Oilers) (0.051) 72. Jeff Garcia (San Francisco 49ers and Tampa Bay Bucs) (0.075) 71. Warren Moon (Houston Oilers, Minnesota Vikings and Kansas City Chiefs) (0.081) 70. Alex Smith (San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs) (0.091) 69. Brian Sipe (Cleveland Browns) (0.115) 68. Ken Anderson (Cincinnati Bengals) (0.147) 67. Jay Cutler (Denver Broncos and Chicago Bears) (0.165) 66. Bert Jones (Baltimore Colts) (0.218) 65. John Hadl (San Diego Chargers, Los Angeles Rams and Green Bay Packers) (0.238) 64. Boomer Esiason (Cincinnati Bengals and New York Jets) (0.260) 63. Jim Plunkett (New England Patriots, San Francisco 49ers and Oakland/L.A. Raiders) (0.286) 62. Jim Hart (St. Louis Cardinals) (0.294) 61. Craig Morton (Dallas Cowboys, New York Giants and Denver Broncos) (0.342) 60. Mark Brunell (Jacksonville Jaguars and Washington Redskins) (0.350) 59. Neil O'Donnell (Pittsburgh Steelers and New York Jets) (0.362) 58. Gus Frerotte (Washington Redskins, Lions, Broncos, Bengals, Vikings, Dolphins, Rams) (0.367) 57. Neil Lomax (St. Louis/Arizona Cardinals) (0.368) 56. Tommy Kramer (Minnesota Vikings) (0.375) 55. Dave Krieg (Seattle Seahawks and Kansas City Chiefs) (0.379) 54. Matt Stafford (Detroit Lions) (0.412) 53. Marc Bulger (St. Louis Rams) (0.475) 52. Billy Kilmer (New Orleans Saints and Washington Redskins) (0.476) 51. Jake Delhomme (Carolina Panthers) (0.483) Tier 3: Good (0.5-1 wins above the average starter a season) 50. Carson Palmer (Cincinnati Bengals, Oakland Raiders and Arizona Cardinals) (0.568) 49. Donovan McNabb (Philadelphia Eagles) (0.591) 48. Matt Schaub (Houston Texans) (0.591) 47. Andy Dalton (Cincinnati Bengals) (0.608) 46. Bobby Hebert (New Orleans Saints and Atlanta Falcons) (0.610) 45. Philip Rivers (San Diego/Los Angeles Chargers) (0.614) 44. Phil Simms (New York Giants) (0.639) 43. Roman Gabriel (Los Angeles Rams and Philadelphia Eagles) (0.653) 42. Matt Hasselbeck (Seattle Seahawks and Tennessee Titans) (0.719) 41. Brad Johnson (Minnesota Vikings, Washington Redskins and Tampa Bay Bucs) (0.722) 40. Dan Fouts (San Diego Chargers) (0.738) 39. Troy Aikman (Dallas Cowboys) (0.748) 38. Trent Green (Kansas City Chiefs) (0.821) 37. Cam Newton (Carolina Panthers) (0.840) 36. Jim McMahon (Chicago Bears) (0.875) 35. Eli Manning (New York Giants) (0.884) 34. Michael Vick (Atlanta Falcons and Philadelphia Eagles) (0.890) 33. Steve Grogan (New England Patriots) (0.989) Tier 2: Franchise QB (1-2 wins above the average starter a season) 32. Joe Namath (New York Jets) (1.002) 30t. Jay Schroeder (Washington Redskins and Los Angeles Raiders) (1.056) 30t. Joe Theismann (Washington Redskins) (1.056) 29. Steve McNair (Houston Oilers/Tennessee Titans) (1.064) 28. Bob Griese (Miami Dolphins) (1.069) 27. John Brodie (San Francisco 49ers)(1.071) 26. Joe Flacco (Baltimore Ravens) (1.086) 25. Fran Tarkenton (New York Giants and Minnesota Vikings) (1.157) 24. Terry Bradshaw (Pittsburgh Steelers) (1.186) 23. Sonny Jurgensen (Washington Redskins) (1.219) 22. Rich Gannon (Minnesota Vikings, Kansas City Chiefs and Oakland Raiders) (1.234) 21. Dan Marino (Miami Dolphins) (1.407) 20. Len Dawson (Kansas City Chiefs) (1.451) 19. Randall Cunningham (Philadelphia Eagles and Minnesota Vikings) (1.457) 18. Matt Ryan (Atlanta Falcons) (1.464) 17. Russell Wilson (Seattle Seahawks) (1.511) 16. Tony Romo (Dallas Cowboys) (1.523) 15. Ben Roethlisberger (Pittsburgh Steelers) (1.539) 14. Drew Brees (San Diego Chargers and New Orleans Saints) (1.777) 13. Brett Favre (Green Bay Packers and Minnesota Vikings) (1.795) 12. Jim Kelly (Buffalo Bills) (1.841) 11. Kurt Warner (St. Louis Rams and Arizona Cardinals) (1.873) 10. John Elway (Denver Broncos) (1.957) Tier 1: Legend (2 or more wins above the average starter a season) 9. Daryle Lamonica (Oakland Raiders) (2.148) 8. Ken Stabler (Oakland Raiders, Houston Oilers, and New Orleans Saints) (2.174) 7. Steve Young (San Francisco 49ers) (2.198) 6. Roger Staubach (Dallas Cowboys) (2.224) 5. Aaron Rodgers (Green Bay Packers) (2.248) 4. Danny White (Dallas Cowboys) (2.284) 4. Andrew Luck (Indianapolis Colts) (2.310) 3. Joe Montana (San Francisco 49ers and Kansas City Chiefs) (2.441) 2. Peyton Manning (Indianapolis Colts and Denver Broncos) (3.065) 1. Thomas Brady (New England Patriots) (3.532) Logicblade fucked around with this message at 05:04 on Aug 25, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 08:12
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102. Archie Manning (New Orleans Saints 1971-1982, Houston Oilers 1982-1983, Minnesota Vikings 1983-1984) 7th Place Saints Quarterback Career Record: 33-97-2 (25.76%) 102nd out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense: 27-22-1 (55.00%) 102nd out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense: 6-75-1 (7.93%) 102nd out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense: 50/132 (37.88%) 96th out of 102 Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-2.886)  Bringing up the rear in our historic list is a QB who never managed to have a winning record as a QB. While people do like to blame the misfortunes on the poor team around him, Archie was not a stalwart by any measure. As a QB he's never had a winning season, he's never made the postseason, and he's never been an hallmark of efficiency either. It honestly makes one wonder how he was able to start so many games for the Saints before finally being replaced. In addition to having the worst record out of all QB's in the study, he also has the worst record when his defense plays well, at just a few hairs above .500, and the worst record when the defense doesn't show up, winning just 6 games and snatching 1 tie in 82 outings. Archie's Wins above Average are so bad that the next player has a larger gap between him and Archie, than he does between him and the player in 67th. These are the kind of numbers you'd expect from a Nathan Peterman, or a DeShone Kizer... not a QB who played for 14 years in the league. If you're pointing towards good genes making his sons successful, it's probably all on their mother's side.
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Jun 7, 2019 08:16
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101. Chris Miller (Atlanta Falcons 1987-1993, Los Angeles/St. Louis Rams 1994-1995, Denver Broncos 1999) 7th Place Falcons Quarterback and 5th Place Rams Quarterback Career Record: 34-59-0 (36.56%) 100th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense: 24-15-0 (61.54%) 99th(T) out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense: 10-44-0 (18.52%) 94th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense: 39/93 (41.94%) 86th(T) out of 102 Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-1.335)  Chris Miller is one of those QB's you will easily forget about given time. He just barely made this list with 93 starts, and suffered a lot of concussions over his career. Despite a lot of mediocrity in his career, he did manage to make a playoff appearance, and the Falcons even won a playoff game before getting ousted by the eventual super bowl champion Redskins in 1991. He spent two years with the Rams combining with another Chris (Chandler) to make the most injury prone QB duo in the league for a couple of years. He tried to revive his career in Denver after a lengthy retirement but another concussion three games in ruined that plan. He wasn't a very effective winner, and had a high propensity for turning the ball over. He's another QB who makes you really wonder how the Falcons couldn't do better. Maybe they just got complacent because they couldn't really lure free agents over back in that era.
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Jun 7, 2019 08:45
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let's play that new fire emblem. (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 7, 2019 10:31
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That's a big project man! I like it though, it's an inventive method. Starting at rank 102 is quite ballsy, I probably would've started around 10 but i send you my life energy, keep it up
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Jun 7, 2019 18:10
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Vince Young is number one any other result means your model is bad
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Jun 7, 2019 18:11
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I wish Rex Grossman qualified. But Kyle Orton does.
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Jun 7, 2019 18:15
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i will decide how good your list is based on dan marino's ranking
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Jun 7, 2019 18:49
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Ehud posted:i will decide how good your list is based on dan marino's ranking 69th
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Jun 7, 2019 19:14
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Fitzmagic qualifies hell yes Josh McCown doesn't 
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Jun 7, 2019 22:43
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Metapod posted:Vince Young is number one any other result means your model is bad Vince only started 50 games  e: You've got Archie as the 7th place QB for the Saints... I honestly wouldn't have guessed that the Saints had seven QBs in their history who started 90+ games. Fenrir fucked around with this message at 22:59 on Jun 7, 2019 |
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Jun 7, 2019 22:45
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I strongly and personally support the OP in a way that none other has
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Jun 7, 2019 23:06
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Cavauro posted:I strongly and personally support the OP in a way that none other has excuse me. i sent him my life energy. there is nothing more valuable than life energy
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Jun 7, 2019 23:18
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Fenrir posted:Vince only started 50 games I was very liberal about what I considered a starter for a team. As long as they started at least 17 games I threw them in. So there will some guys who are listed high for a team, but they most of their work with another team. (Happens a lot with the Bucs and Vikings actually). Sadly Josh McCown, Vince Young and Kyle Orton were short on starts to qualify. But here's a guy who wasn't. 100. Jeff George (Indianapolis Colts 1990-1993, Atlanta Falcons 1994-1996, Oakland Raiders 1997-1998, Minnesota Vikings 1999, Washington Redskins 2000-2001) 4th Place Colts Quarterback, 6th Place Falcons Quarterback and 8th Place Raiders Quarterback Career Record 43-78-0 (35.54%) 101st out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 32-14-0 (69.57%) 79th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 11-64-0 (14.67%) 99th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 46/121 (38.02%) 95th out of 102 Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-1.162)  The OG Sex Cannon, a player who floated around the league for 16 years, but hadn't seed action since 2001. He had a hell of an arm, that's for sure, but he was statuesque in the pocket and took sacks and threw interceptions like no one's business. But he somehow managed to start 121 games so that just goes to show, if you're drafted early enough teams will still think you're good no matter what you do. The biggest highlight of his career was probably leading the league in passing yards in 1997, or winning a playoff game with the 1999 Vikings. Still he didn't last in one place for too long, and when you piss off every coach you've ever played for that's sort of the inevitable result.
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Jun 8, 2019 00:59
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Logicblade posted:I was very liberal about what I considered a starter for a team. As long as they started at least 17 games I threw them in. So there will some guys who are listed high for a team, but they most of their work with another team. (Happens a lot with the Bucs and Vikings actually). Ahh, this makes sense. The Saints did have a few guys in the twilight of their careers like Stabler and Jim Everett, and I figure Billy Kilmer has to be in there somewhere (and probably not very high up, haha)
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Jun 8, 2019 03:08
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99. Ryan Fitzpatrick (St. Louis Rams 2005-2006, Cincinnati Bengals 2007-2008, Buffalo Bills 2009-2012, Tennessee Titans 2013, Houston Texans 2014, New York Jets 2015-2016, Tampa Bay Bucs 2017-Current) 4th Place Bills Quarterback and 7th Place Jets Quarterback Career Record 51-72-1 (41.53%) 93rd out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense: 43-17-1 (71.31%) 76th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 8-55-0 (12.70%) 100th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 61/124 (49.19%) 66th out of 102 Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-1.123) (-1.136 with 2018 data)  Ryan Fitzpatrick here definitely deserves to be on the bottom of these kinds of lists. As a journeyman he's become sort of a legend around the league for supplanting teams QB's with decent but not spectacular play, and then crapping the bed once he gained a starting role. I think Febreeze has a graphic on that somewhere... Despite being on 7 teams in his career, he never started more than 16 games for any other teams besides the Bills and the Jets, but still managed to put out 124 games played (and counting) in his illustrious career. However despite teams constantly taking chances on him, he's proven to be below average in getting his teams over the hump, even when his teams put out good defensive performances. He's one of the better examples of performing well below what his defense gives him, at least most of the other guys around him have had hideous defenses to work with, Fitzpatrick's have been only slightly below average, and that scoring defense is hindered further by Fitzpatrick's propensity to throw interceptions. It's sort of a miracle that teams need to keep going to the Fitzpatrick well, but he just keeps finding a way to get in there. He is already looking to take the job from Rosen in Miami, if the early camp reports are any indication.
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Jun 8, 2019 05:12
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i'm here to see andy dalton and I won't stop reading til I see him
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Jun 8, 2019 05:55
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a patagonian cavy posted:i'm here to see andy dalton and I won't stop reading til I see him Good news, you'll be waiting for a while yet. 98. Steve DeBerg (San Francisco 49ers 1978-1980, Denver Broncos 1981-1983, Tampa Bay Bucs 1984-1987, 1992-1993, Kansas City Chiefs 1988-1991, Miami Dolphins 1993, Atlanta Falcons 1998) 7th Place 49ers Quarterback, 7th place Bucs Quarterback and 7th Place Chiefs Quarterback Career Record 58-96-2 (37.82%) 98th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 37-24-2 (60.32%) 101st out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 21-72 (22.58%) 80th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 63/156 (40.38%) 90th out of 102 (-8) Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-1.055)  Steve DeBerg is probably better known for sticking around the league so drat long that he ended up being the oldest QB to be activated in a super bowl at 44 years old with the Falcons (he didn't play that game, but still). He originally retired in 1993 before coming back for one last shot of glory and came very close to actually getting a super bowl ring with the Falcons. However, DeBerg's career is marred by being replaced by some of the legends of the game. He was originally slated to start in Bill Walsh's West Coast Offense before the 49ers drafted Joe Montana because DeBerg could not win games. He stayed on as Montana's backup before being traded to Denver, who managed to snag John Elway from the Colts two years later. After backing him up for a while he ended up in Tampa where they drafted Steve Young. However the Young experiment didn't exactly work out for Tampa, and neither did DeBerg who did an admirable job at losing close games for them. He eventually got traded to the Chiefs in the late 80's and led them to a couple of playoff berths before bouncing around as a backup and eventually retiring. DeBerg has had one of the more interesting QB trajectories in the league and provides a neat parallel to Ryan Fitzpatrick above him. Fitzpatrick gets called in to steal the jobs of young players with loads of potential that never get realized, DeBerg gets his job stolen by young rookies with loads of potential that they realized. As an aside, I could not find a picture of this guy that did not make him look like he was making GBS threads his pants, or about to poo poo his pants. That's probably why he ends up so low on this list.
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Jun 8, 2019 18:32
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I wanted to say this thread is really cool and awesome so far, please keep it up. I wanted to ask if you would mind, as a football history dork, if I threw in some extra details on some of these guys?
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Jun 9, 2019 03:33
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It's Dan Marino and it's not particularly close OP. Dan Marino's 1984 season was better than all but two of Peyton Manning's seasons. In 19 freaking 84.
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Jun 9, 2019 06:14
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fartknocker posted:I wanted to say this thread is really cool and awesome so far, please keep it up. Oh go right ahead, I'd love to see your thoughts on some these guys.
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Jun 9, 2019 08:09
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Logicblade posted:Oh go right ahead, I'd love to see your thoughts on some these guys. Cool.  To catch up... 102: Archie Manning: Basically, in the worst of worlds for a quarterback. He had a constantly changing stream of head coaches who were either terrible or past whatever prime they had, also compounded by being in the utter depths of the Dead Ball passing era of the early-to-mid 1970s. The team also could not keep players with any kind of regularity, both at the skill positions and offensive line. The brief period in the late 70's where Archie went to back to back Pro Bowls (Which as a reminder, prior to 1995, voting was entirely from other players and coaches, so it was considered more of an honor than today) also coincided with him having some decent players around him. Probably the two best guys Archie played with were RB Chuck Muncie and WR Wes Chandler in 1978 and 1979, both of whom would be best known for being key parts of the Air Coryell Chargers after being traded during the 1980 and 1981 seasons, respectively. Archie's legacy in the NFL is probably inflated a bit by his college history, and obviously his sons, but he was by all accounts a pretty good player just stuck on one of the worst franchises in the NFL during that era. 101: Chris Miller: Why didn't the Falcons try and do better? Blame Jerry Glanville. Miller was a first round pick in the pre-Free Agency era where it was still generally accepted for QB's to take a few years to develop into starters, and his first three years were nothing impressive. Then Jerry Glanville comes in for the 1990 seasons and installs the Red Gun, his deep passing version of the Run & Shoot offense, and they added some key pieces to the offense (More on that in a moment). It really didn't work in his first season, but the Falcons got some breaks the next year. With MC Hammer on the sidelines and peak Deion Sanders, the Falcons won games with crazy Hail Mary passes, lateraling interceptions, and being aided by San Francisco having a really down year by their standards of the time (10-6, 3rd in the division and out of the playoffs because Atlanta swept them). Miller, to his credit, played pretty well and looked to be a good fit in an offense that actually had some pretty good weapons. Glanville had so much confidence in Miller that they away their 1991 2nd round pick, some drunk project QB named Brett Favre that Glanville really didn't like anyway... only for Miller to break his leg halfway through the 1992 season. He never really recovered or regained form, the concussions continued to pile up, Glanville was fired, and Miller bounced around for a few years with the Rams. 100: Jeff George: His arm was the siren song of the NFL in the 1990s. The Colts thought he was the missing piece for their team, but they gave up a fuckton to the Falcons to get him (Multiple Pro Bowl/All-Pro tackle Chris Hinton and young promising WR Andre Rison, both of whom really helped Chris Miller, plus a 1991 1st rounder), while Eric Dickerson turned 30 and fell off a cliff. He never did much for them and got shipped to the Falcons, where he put up some decent numbers in the Run & Shoot, but then he got angry with June Jones. He spent some time in Oakland, then got to replace Randall Cunningham on the Vikings in 1999, where he got to play with one of the most talented groups of skill players in NFL history (Notably Randy Moss and Cris Carter, but also Robert Smith and Jake Reed deserve mention), before Dan Synder offered his typical dump truck of money to an older player and Jeff went to Washington for a few years and that was it for Jeff. 99: Ryan Fitzpatrick: Fitzmagic... I really don't think I need to add much here. Everyone who follows the NFL over the last few years knows his story: He gets signed as a back up, somehow ends up starting, will have a couple inexplicable, totally amazing games, and then start firing interceptions and keep a QB controversy alive. Probably the best modern example of a journeyman quarterback. 98: Steve DeBerg: Not much else to add, another classic journeyman who bounced around. He spent time in San Francisco and Denver before those teams began their rise in the 80s, then the historically inept mid-80s Buccaneers. His best years were with Kansas City, handing it off to Christian Okoye & Barry Word to create one of the most dominant teams in the original Tecmo Super Bowl. He had another stint with Sam Wyche's medicore early-90s Bucs, then had a moment with the 1993 Dolphins when Marino tore his Achilles, and Dan Reeves yanked him back in 1998 for one game because... Dan Reeves? Probably his most memorable attribute is often being mentioned as one of the greatest play action QB's of all time, along with guys like Boomer Esiason and peak Peyton Manning, and I recall a bunch of guys in the 2000s specifically mentioning studying his tape to work on their own play fake abilities. fartknocker fucked around with this message at 00:02 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 9, 2019 16:30
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97. Norm Snead* (Washington Redskins 1961-1963, Philadelphia Eagles 1964-1970, Minnesota Vikings 1971, New York Giants 1972-1974, 1976, San Francisco 49ers 1974-1975) (Loses the first 5 years of his career due to era cutoff) 5th place Eagles Quarterback and 6th Place Giants Quarterback Career Record 35-60-4 (37.37%) 99th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 23-13-1 (63.51%) 97th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 12-47-3 (21.77%) 85th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 37/99 (37.37%) 97th out of 102 (0) Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-1.028)  Norman Snead is not very well regarded by many, and a large part of it has to do with the fact that he was on some abysmal Eagles teams for his career. The signature mark of his career isn't anything he did, but the circumstances that brought him to Philadelphia in the first place. He was part of a trade with the Redskins for hall of famer Sonny Jurgensen, and you can tell who won that trade. He also happened to be the QB on the field when the Eagles fans booed Santa, so you know, another perk. Snead often lead the league in interceptions, and was one of those guys who tried to put too much on his own shoulders. He doesn't end up at the bottom, but he was never the player that the Eagles needed him to be. He bounced around the league with a few other teams after his Eagles stint, including his only winning season as a Giants QB in 1972, but never really made an impact on the league the way his contemporaries did. The most fascinating thing about him may just be that he is the last QB to win a game with a passer rating of zero, and he did it against the Redskins in a 12-9... uh... I guess you can call it a game.
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Jun 10, 2019 03:42
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This is some good info. i didn't know who that qb is. i'm going to say on here each time when i didn't know Who that qb is.
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Jun 10, 2019 03:47
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The thing I remember about Steve DeBerg is his getting a finger broken on his non-throwing hand and having a two finger cast put on it for the rest of the season. You really couldn't question his toughness after seeing the finger reset on the sidelines.
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Jun 10, 2019 04:11
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In this topic a guy ptetends who knows.about every QB Lol (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jun 10, 2019 07:02
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96. Jon Kitna (Seattle Seahawks 1997-2000, Cincinnati Bengals 2001-2005, Detroit Lions 2006-2008, Dallas Cowboys 2010-2011) 7th Place Seahawks QB, 6th Place Bengals QB and 3rd Place Lions QB Career Record 50-82-0 (37.88%) 97th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 33-19 (63.46%) 98th out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 17-63 (21.25%) 90th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 52/132 (39.39%) 93rd out of 102 (-3) Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-0.865)  Play the pipes Jonny Boy, we have our first QB in the Journeyman tier, and whoo boy is Jon Kitna a journeyman. Mostly known for his work backing up above average quarterbacks, Kitna had a long career and played for a lot of mediocre to downright bad teams in his career. Perhaps the highlight of his career is coming in for Carson Palmer in the postseason after Kimo Van Oelhoffen broke his leg, and playing... well miserably. He's been to the playoffs twice and been inconsequential both times, he has one of the worst records of any QB in this study, and he was one of the Lions QB's during the 0-16 season. If you need a capable backup, Kitna was about as reliable as it gets... but if you needed him to start a serious game? You were in trouble. Still, he's not bad for a guy who looks like a thumb.
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Jun 10, 2019 08:51
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I never liked seeing Jon Kitna and always felt like the Ravens would lose to him. And they did.
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Jun 10, 2019 12:01
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Logicblade posted:Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-0.865) This makes me think the first dead on average guy we see is still going to suuuuuuck.
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Jun 10, 2019 12:06
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Logicblade posted:96. Jon Kitna 3rd Place Lions QB My God the Lions QB history has been horrid
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Jun 10, 2019 16:43
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The other two Lions QBs that actually qualify are Stafford and who? I'm guessing it has to be either Charlie Batch or Rodney Peete.
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Jun 10, 2019 22:55
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Scott Mitchell, probably. He was their starter for the bulk of four or five seasons and probably played long enough to make this list. How is this the second time in like a week I’m the one invoking that name of that fat rear end? fartknocker fucked around with this message at 23:17 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 23:14
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 I legit loving forgot Scott Mitchell existed. Didn't he actually Not Suck for a year or two?e: VVV Joey Harrington? I doubt he started enough games. Fenrir fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jun 10, 2019 |
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Jun 10, 2019 23:16
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Fenrir posted:The other two Lions QBs that actually qualify are Stafford and who? I'm guessing it has to be either Charlie Batch or Rodney Peete. Harrison doesn't count??
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Jun 10, 2019 23:21
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As someone annoyingly pointed out to me in another thread, Scott Mitchell once had a season that basically matched Goff's 2018 season, pretty strong stats. That was the only year he was halfway decent iirc
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Jun 10, 2019 23:32
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Can't wait until Kyle Orton is number one
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Jun 10, 2019 23:40
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Play posted:As someone annoyingly pointed out to me in another thread, Scott Mitchell once had a season that basically matched Goff's 2018 season, pretty strong stats. That was the only year he was halfway decent iirc Yeah, that was me too. 
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Jun 11, 2019 04:09
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Still haven't gotten the right Lions quarterback yet. 95. Ron Jaworski (Los Angeles Rams 1974-1976, Philadelphia Eagles 1977-1986, Miami Dolphins 1988, Kansas City Chiefs 1989) 4th Place Eagles Quarterback Career Record 79-74-1 (51.62%) 57th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 73-28-0 (72.28%) 71st out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 6-46-1 (12.26%) 101st out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 101/154 (65.58%) 7th out of 102 (-88) Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-0.841)  Ron Jaworski, or Jaws as he was colloquially known, is the next player to grace this list, and whew boy, is he an interesting character to dissect. Among all of the QB's thus far, he is the first to walk in with a winning record, which usually means you should be a lot higher than 95th. Well, as it turns out, Ron Jaworski had the 7th best defense out of all the QB's I looked at in this sample. Terry Bradshaw, Jim McMahon, Russell Wilson, Roger Staubauch, Ben Roethlisberger, and Donovan McNabb (another Eagle), were the only QB's to have better defenses than him, and 5 of those 6 won a super bowl, while the 6th was on a perennial contender year in and year out. Jaws had a strong three year prime from 1979-1981, but the rest of his Philly tenure was filled with tough losses before being replaced in 1985 by the phenom Randall Cunningham, and wiling out the rest of his career as a decent backup for some fairly good teams. He did have the longest starting streak for a QB at 116 games, but that streak has long since been surpassed by other QBs thanks to all of the new rule changes. With the teams the Eagles had around him, you would have expected a lot better than a loss in the super bowl and a few early playoff exits, the Eagles of the 80's had the defense to compete for a title every year. But Ron Jaworski was not even average at taking those opportunities his defense gave him, and he was pitiable in the few games where they didn't show up, having the second worst record among all QB's studied in games where his defense gave up 21+ points.
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Jun 11, 2019 04:20
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Just wanted to add that I like this and hope it makes it to the end. 
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Jun 11, 2019 13:13
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sean10mm posted:Just wanted to add that I like this and hope it makes it to the end. Thanks for that, I'm hoping it makes it to the end too. Some of my later write-ups are getting a bit long winded hahaha. 94. Vinny Testaverde (Tampa Bay Bucs 1987-1992, Cleveland Browns/Baltimore Ravens 1993-1997, New York Jets 1998-2003, 2005, Dallas Cowboys 2004, New England Patriots 2006, Carolina Panthers 2007) 6th place Bucs QB and 3rd Place Browns QB and 6th Place Jets QB Career Record 94-118-1 (44.37%) 89th out of 102 Record in Games with Good Defense 75-34-1 (68.64%) 83rd out of 102 Record in Games with Bad Defense 19-84 (18.45%) 95th out of 102 Percentage of Games with Good Defense 110/213 (51.64%) 53rd out of 102 (-41) Wins above Average Starter in a 16 Game Season (-0.807) /cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/57868471/72908100.jpg.0.jpg) Well it sure didn't take long to find ourselves another first overall pick on this list, and it didn't take long for us to grab Steve DeBerg's succcessor in Tampa Bay. Vinny Testaverde was the Bucs first overall pick in 1987, and had one hell of a career path as he played until his late 40's for 7 different teams. When you put all of his starts together, his teams defenses end up being right around the middle of the pack, terrible early in his career, good to great in the middle, and then awful in Dallas before he went on his pre-retirement tour of New York, New England and Carolina. He was a former Heisman trophy winner and expected to be the saviour of the woeful Tampa franchise like Doug Williams and Steve Young before him. However, he wasn't able to reverse the curse and the Bucs moved on after 6 straight losing seasons. He went to the Browns next, and after winning the QB spot from Bernie Kosar, got his first winning season under Bill Belichick's tutelage. He kept the starting role even through the move to Baltimore in 1996 where he finally showed why he was drafted first overall. The peak of his career was probably 1998 where in his first season with the Jets he was able to take them all the way to the AFC Championship game, before being beat out by the Broncos. He stuck around for a long time after that, but his abilities were never quite the same as age finally caught up with him. Still, he was able to play at an acceptable level until his 40's which was pretty rare back in the day. I mean it still is, but we've been spoiled by some modern QB's who we will see later. Vinny was an interesting guy, that's for sure, but he could never overcome the poor Tampa franchise, and he may have hung on to the pads a little too long to see his rank stay a little bit higher.
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Jun 11, 2019 16:01
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