Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us $3,400 per month for bandwidth bills alone, and since we don't believe in shoving popup ads to our registered users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
«73 »
  • Post
  • Reply
LGD
Sep 25, 2004




Erpy posted:

From what I've heard, that one's a bust. What the ???-seed grows into is determined upon opening the chest, not growing the seed.

correct

that's why you save before you open the chest so that you can reload -> re-open chest for a re-rolled seed -> magic rope out -> check seed

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Oo Koo
Nov 19, 2012


The earliest enemies I've been able to farm ??? seeds from were the blue demons (Wormwoods?) that are guarding the Nevarl hideout, when you're off to hand over the sword of mana to Belladonna on the Hawkeye/Riesz route. You might need a level 5 seed planter and both lucky finds equipped to get decent rates though, I did it on new game+, so I don't know how feasible it is on first playthrough. I'm not sure if the other routes have seed dropping enemies on their respective Faerie rescue missions.

By the way, you can't class change if you don't have Faerie in the "party", I tried to check if I could tier Riesz up to class 3 between Faerie getting snatched and handing over the sword to Belladonna and got a "You need Faerie to class change" message. (My imported seeds from the previous playthrough hadn't rolled the item I wanted for her.)

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION





Toilet Rascal

I think I've come to the conclusion after a couple playthroughs of the best party:

Kevin DD, Charlotte DD, Angela LL

Kevin will wreck everything with the immense strength he has (also Seiryu strike will clear trash mobs quickly), as well Angela, and Charlotte can use dark curse as well as heal when necessary (and her summons aren't bad either). Stat up and sabers can be utilized with items, making Riesz and Duran obsolete. You COULD swap Charlotte for Hawkeye for more damage and use his jutsus for stat downs and stick to poto oil for healing (or make Kevin go light), but the amount of damage you're doing from Angela and Kevin will burn everything quickly, and one cast from dark curse is a hell of a lot faster.

That said, this game isn't that hard so really any type of party is gonna work just fine. I'd have to wonder what the "worst" party would be.

IMJack
Apr 16, 2003

Royalty is a continuous ripping and tearing motion.



Fun Shoe

Before starting my second NG+ I did a quick lap through the Stockade with a bunch of item drop bonuses to farm up a bunch of Rainbow and ??? seeds. Then after reaching the Windstone for the first time I fell back to Palo to plant the ??? seeds to get the class change items. Hawkeye and Duran were L75 coming into this run, Riesz is the only one starting fresh and she's at L32 at this point, the boss fight will probably get her to L38. Before the prologue was over I fed her all the stat-up elixirs I hadn't used from the first two runs so she was already hitting well over her weight class from the very beginning.

Alxprit
Feb 7, 2015

A lady after my own Soul-Heart.

Oo Koo posted:

By the way, you can't class change if you don't have Faerie in the "party", I tried to check if I could tier Riesz up to class 3 between Faerie getting snatched and handing over the sword to Belladonna and got a "You need Faerie to class change" message. (My imported seeds from the previous playthrough hadn't rolled the item I wanted for her.)

That's funny. I should try examining the statue when Faerie is gone in the original.

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



My plans for a Paladin, Divine Fist, Rogue CS spam team mostly fell apart and Iím sad. In case anyone wants to know, it turns out Guard doesnít work with the CS Damage abilities, so even though Glint Blade is very strong, Paladinís CS generation isnít strong enough to put it to great use. And Rogueís Trap CS Boost only works on the lower tier of traps, not anything with ďprojectileĒ in the description. While he can still build the CS gauge crazy fast, it doesnít seem worth it compared to just spamming high damage traps.

I find Divine Fist pretty boring. Instantly destroying ~80% of normal fights with Nature Aura -> CS 2 gets old, and his CS 3 is really bad and boring to watch. He is quite strong, though.

Paladin is actually really cool. He seems almost completely loving indestructible, and absorbing 30% of damage against party members is huge. His heal light keeps you topped up between fights consistently, and healing during battles is rarely needed. Glint slash looks amazing and is very effective, too.

Rogue is weird. He basically seems like a budget Angela that targets Defense and doesnít need buffs. He does good damage, but burns through MP super fast, and Iím not sure what the use case for a lot of the traps is. I find heís a little more fun to play than Angela because Hawkeyeís attack chains are so good, but overall Iíd much rather play Nomad (I havenít tried either of Hawkeyeís dark classes yet, but I suspect Iíd like both of them better, too).

Omobono
Feb 19, 2013

That's it! No more hiding in tomato crates! It's time to show that idiota Germany how a real nation fights!

For pasta~! CHARGE!


What's L Riesz supposed to do at high levels? E: other than buffing of course.

She was great as a CS spam machine until the postgame with a STR/SPI/INT build, then she fell off hard in the post game.

Admittedly that's because D Hawkeye is outputting Angela numbers between his debuffs, Riesz buffs, and all the ninjutsu booster passives, but still.

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



Assuming youíre not using Night Market items extensively she still basically doubles the teamís magic damage (magic up + magic smash) while being an extra body on the field. If you are using them, then yeah, light Riesz is pretty bad aside from Army of One, which drops off pretty hard compared to what other characters get.

Personally I think itís fine for Star Lancer to be a really boring but effective support class, especially for magic focused teams, but I think Vanadys really needs a little something extra to make her worth piloting. She was the strongest attacker among Rieszí classes in the snes game, but in the remake her dark classes are stronger by far.

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION





Toilet Rascal

Omobono posted:

What's L Riesz supposed to do at high levels? E: other than buffing of course.

She was great as a CS spam machine until the postgame with a STR/SPI/INT build, then she fell off hard in the post game.

Admittedly that's because D Hawkeye is outputting Angela numbers between his debuffs, Riesz buffs, and all the ninjutsu booster passives, but still.

My Riesz would spam Seraph a bunch during fights, which works pretty well. Her final light class 4 gets a CS ability that does MP turbo for summon fights, which you can offset with various MP regeneration abilities.

The Gunslinger
Jul 24, 2004

Do not forget the face of your father.

Fun Shoe

Welp Black Rabite taught my cocky rear end a lesson. I have been steamrolling everything with Grand Diviner Angela and I have finally found a worthy foe. So I can't use Lucent Beam+ and my AI teammates (Hawkeye/Duran) are useless idiots who eat every attack by this thing. What's the best way to handle it? I tried Doppleganger but it takes so long to fire and locks me in which results in getting hit by its attacks. The AI is constantly wasting my cups and my team has no resurrection spells.

In a separate save I'm doing a NG+ with Kevin, Charlotte and Duran. Maybe I should just use this team to nuke Black Rabite instead since it seems like Kevin will demolish the thing even on Hard?

Kyrosiris
May 24, 2006

You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".



Use a different element tier 2 spell. I think I used the water one.

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Switchblade Switcharoo

I just finished the postgame boss with (in class 4) magus Angela, liege Duran, and fenrir knight Riesz, and magus Angela just completely shatters the game over her knee on top of being the most fun character to play and having the best VA. Really the highlight of the game. Black rabite was the only real challenge that popped up late game.

All that said, is there anything else to miss? There was a message about beating the post game boss for new skills or something, but if I'm done aside from new game+ then I think it's time to move on to other games in my list.

chumbler fucked around with this message at 06:11 on May 20, 2020

jokes
Dec 20, 2012
jokes




Kyrosiris posted:

Use a different element tier 2 spell. I think I used the water one.

Explosion for me!

Arkeus
Jul 21, 2013


chumbler posted:

I just finished the postgame boss with (in class 4) magus Angela, liege Duran, and fenrir knight Riesz, and magus Angela just completely shatters the game over her knee on top of being the most fun character to play and having the best VA. Really the highlight of the game. Black rabite was the only real challenge that popped up late game.

All that said, is there anything else to miss? There was a message about beating the post game boss for new skills or something, but if I'm done aside from new game+ then I think it's time to move on to other games in my list.

There is 'challenge post game boss again to kill her under a time limit' and if you succeed you get a few good skills. It's mostly to show off how well you are breaking the game though.

EponymousMrYar
Jan 4, 2015

The enemy of my enemy is my enemy.


The other thing is playing through the game two more times to get different main stories out of it.

That's pretty much it though.

lezard_valeth
Mar 14, 2016


Yeah this is a game that really could have benefitted with more postgame boss challenges, but I get that they did this remake with some spare budget they had laying around

chumbler
Mar 28, 2010



Switchblade Switcharoo

lezard_valeth posted:

Yeah this is a game that really could have benefitted with more postgame boss challenges, but I get that they did this remake with some spare budget they had laying around

Even with probably limited budget in mind, it's a great game, let alone a great remake.

Levantine
Feb 14, 2005

GUNDAM!!!


chumbler posted:

Even with probably limited budget in mind, it's a great game, let alone a great remake.

Trials is such a great, self-contained game for what it is. It doesn't look or feel like a budget title but sort of does in that the scope of the game was always small, even in the original. I platinumed the game and had an absolute blast with it but I also felt like I was done when I did. I don't think I'll be coming back to it. Maybe if it had co-op or something I could see myself doing that but as it is, the game is just about perfect the way it is.

I started FF7:R afterwards and it's so cool to see how Square Enix is doing remakes now. They are kind of polar opposites in budget and scope but both are just fantastic work on squeenix's part.

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION





Toilet Rascal

Playing NG+, I had 32 ??? Seeds from a previous playthrough, wanted to try Angela as a Magus. Got 19 rune books to make her a rune seer, not a single item to make her a Magus

Edit: just because you cant save scrub this

https://mobile.twitter.com/saifagai...900047709622272

seiferguy fucked around with this message at 18:31 on May 22, 2020

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Are you locked to a specific class 4 choice based on your class 2 route?

Defiance Industries
Jul 22, 2010

A five-star manufacturer





Yes, there's just one choice depending on whether you went light or dark at L.18

seiferguy
Jun 9, 2005

FLAWED
INTUITION





Toilet Rascal

Defiance Industries posted:

Yes, there's just one choice depending on whether you went light or dark at L.18

You dont learn any new moves at class 4 though.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


Name of the class, outfit, and CS depend on your T2 class, but you'll have different skills available based on your T3 class. Nothing new and sparkly that I've seen, just extra tiers of skills you already have.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Man I know I'm missing out on an Optimal Damage Setup by controlling Duran instead of Kevin, but I really enjoy how Duran feels in combat and I like being my own Healing Light + bot. Very satisfying gameplay loop.

LDL Duran, LLL Angela, and DDD Kevin has been a lot of fun. Can't wait for Riesz/Hawk/Duran as my next playthrough.

Fister Roboto
Feb 21, 2008




Buglord

Bruceski posted:

Name of the class, outfit, and CS depend on your T2 class, but you'll have different skills available based on your T3 class. Nothing new and sparkly that I've seen, just extra tiers of skills you already have.

The passive skills from T4 are always the same regardless of your T3 class. For example a Vanadis->Meteorite will get Attack Boost All 3 despite not getting Attack Boost All 2.

Bruceski
Aug 21, 2007

The tools of a hero mean nothing without a solid core.


Fister Roboto posted:

The passive skills from T4 are always the same regardless of your T3 class. For example a Vanadis->Meteorite will get Attack Boost All 3 despite not getting Attack Boost All 2.

They are? Pretty sure I swapped Hawkeye from Nightblade Vigilante to Ninja Master Vigilante and had different passives. I'll have to go check.

Edit: huh, you're right.

Bruceski fucked around with this message at 00:44 on May 23, 2020

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


I did Black Rabite last - do I need to rebeat Anise to make sure it's chain ability goes through on a NG+?

Also, if I've unlocked NG+, can I use it on a file that didn't beat Anise?

sigher
Apr 22, 2008

Down the Rabbit Hole.


Poque posted:

Also, if I've unlocked NG+, can I use it on a file that didn't beat Anise?

I believe it's only on files that have 2 stars, the second one coming from beating Anise.

Kyrosiris
May 24, 2006

You try to be happy when everyone is summoning you everywhere to "be their friend".



sigher posted:

I believe it's only on files that have 2 stars, the second one coming from beating Anise.

That said if you killed Black Rabite and saved after getting two stars, then yes, the Obsidian Power chain ability will carry over (I also killed Black Rabite after Anise).

Crystalgate
Dec 26, 2012


I've beaten the game with all six character now. I do not see myself doing Anise's Stockade ever again.

The game is way too offense oriented. I see no problem with allowing you to go heavily into offense, but it feels like that the game punishes other approaches. I usually had an easier time with Duran, Kevin and Angela than with the other three, despite playing a harder difficulty with the first mentioned three and having access to stat down, multi-target stat up and Charlotte's healing with Riezs, Hawkeye and Charlotte.

By the way, is it a coincidence that Duran, Kevin and Angela had solo boss fights when obtaining their class 4 items while the rest had full party fights or is it difficulty based?

Angela has a lot of "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" going on over her. She is weak at the start and completely overpowered late game.

Sacrificial Toast
Nov 5, 2009



Crystalgate posted:

By the way, is it a coincidence that Duran, Kevin and Angela had solo boss fights when obtaining their class 4 items while the rest had full party fights or is it difficulty based?

Coincidence

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



Crystalgate posted:

I've beaten the game with all six character now. I do not see myself doing Anise's Stockade ever again.

The game is way too offense oriented. I see no problem with allowing you to go heavily into offense, but it feels like that the game punishes other approaches. I usually had an easier time with Duran, Kevin and Angela than with the other three, despite playing a harder difficulty with the first mentioned three and having access to stat down, multi-target stat up and Charlotte's healing with Riezs, Hawkeye and Charlotte.

By the way, is it a coincidence that Duran, Kevin and Angela had solo boss fights when obtaining their class 4 items while the rest had full party fights or is it difficulty based?

Angela has a lot of "linear warriors, quadratic wizards" going on over her. She is weak at the start and completely overpowered late game.

I think the main problem regarding offense is that enemies just donít have enough health and arenít quite aggressive enough. Some of the defensive classes actually do work. I can confirm Paladin, at least really is very strong at preventing damage to the team. The problem is that a really strong damage dealer just tears through enemies too fast for it to matter. If late game enemies were more robust compared to to the top damage dealers offense, they would have more time to be threatening. Also healing items are so cheap and powerful that healing magic is mostly a convenience.

Hawkeye is capable of a lot of damage in most of his classes, I think. Nightblade might do less damage, but it has instant kills against regular enemies in return. I donít think heís really worse than Duran or Kevin. For Riesz, Iíve heard Dragon Master is a very solid damage dealer, but havenít tried it yet. If you donít use the Beiser items, Rieszí light classes are super strong, especially Star Lancer in a magic team, since she doubles Angelaís damage while also taking hits and chipping away on her own.

Overall I think class balance is not too bad, though obviously with some glaring exceptions. Duranís light classes are on the weaker side because offense trumps defense, meanwhile Edelfrei is a little overpowered, with massive damage potential and great support. Paladin, at least, is still good, though, and lots of people here have mentioned they like Liege. Kevin is well balanced against Duran (except Edelfrei) and all his classes are good. I think all of Hawkeyeís classes are good, too. Vanadys is on the weak side for Riesz, though itís still great on a melee team if you arenít using Beiser items. Charlotte feels the weakest, since sheís based on healing, which just isnít that strong. I didnít like necromancer, but Iíve heard Sage and Warlock can be okay. Angela is completely broken at the end of the game, in return for being weak early, which I think is not great.

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


I originally wanted to follow my DAK party with RHD and KCA to get all three paths with both associated party members. But I think I'd rather just do the opposite party (RHC) next as a regular New Game, and then go K?? as a New Game + to get Kevin's storyline while superpowered and having played with everybody. I'm not interested in using Charlotte twice so unless I end up really liking her as a party member, I'll just forego her half of that story. Oh well.

I really should have thought it out more ahead of time and realized that going DAK first would mean I'd have to use Charlotte twice if I wanted to do all three party member pairings AND opposite parties for the first two playthroughs.

Shoenin
May 29, 2013

Everynight I wake up Screaming.
(and beating the dragon)

Nightblade's problem is regular mooks die more or less immediately by that point in the game, and his boss damage is relatively low because of its damage gimmick being unable to actually work. Its still his strongest melee class even without it, but it shows just how weird his overall design is. Haven't tried Light Hawk yet but from ive heard they're pretty much just a lesser angela with some support, kinda like Ninja Master is.

Ive no idea why Dark Riesz doesn't get aura's. Its the biggest oversight in the game imo, and hurts those classes pretty bad even if they are supposed to be the attack classes. Vanadis is bad because most of everything it does, Star Lancer just does better. Bad healing doesn't make up for literally everything else. It can still work since her buffs are buffs, but there's too much "wtf?" about it like the (nonsensically)situational auras.

Light Duran has the same problem Light Duran had in SFC. Damage sucks and is kind of pointless. Duelist is also kind of bad as well since too gimmicky and slow for its own good instead of just being GRUG SMASH like it should be. Duran for me is probably the worst designed character because only 1 of his end classes is good due to a overpowered ability and +crit damage, he'd be meh support otherwise without it. Plus they're chains so they'd be better on Kevin or maaaybe possibly Dark Riesz. Poor Guy.

Kevin is still Kevin, just doesn't abuse glitches anymore. He's still good at what he does and what he does is punching and essentially this:

Yeah I just wanted an excuse to post some Kevin Steen.

Charlotte is actually good now because she can do some damage, and her support stuff is much better here. High Cleric is outclassed by Sage, and Warlock is arguably better than Necro, but all are technically sound.

Angela well she's broken as poo poo come the tomato camp. I wouldn't say shes the weak early since she still does damage well enough. They removed everything that made her bad in SFC...and then increased magic damage on top of that. WELP

Shoenin fucked around with this message at 01:55 on May 24, 2020

Mr. Locke
Jul 28, 2010


Shoenin posted:

Nightblade's problem is regular mooks die more or less immediately by that point in the game, and his boss damage is relatively low because of its damage gimmick being unable to actually work. Its still his strongest melee class even without it, but it shows just how weird his overall design is. Haven't tried Light Hawk yet but from ive heard they're pretty much just a lesser angela with some support, kinda like Ninja Master is.

Ive no idea why Dark Riesz doesn't get aura's. Its the biggest oversight in the game imo, and hurts those classes pretty bad even if they are supposed to be the attack classes. Vanadis is bad because most of everything it does, Star Lancer just does better. Bad healing doesn't make up for literally everything else. It can still work since her buffs are buffs, but there's too much "wtf?" about it like the (nonsensically)situational auras.

Light Duran has the same problem Light Duran had in SFC. Damage sucks and is kind of pointless. Duelist is also kind of bad as well since too gimmicky and slow for its own good instead of just being GRUG SMASH like it should be. Duran for me is probably the worst designed character because only 1 of his end classes is good due to a overpowered ability and +crit damage, he'd be meh support otherwise without it. Plus they're chains so they'd be better on Kevin or maaaybe possibly Dark Riesz. Poor Guy.

Kevin is still Kevin, just doesn't abuse glitches anymore. He's still good at what he does and what he does is punching and essentially this:

Yeah I just wanted an excuse to post some Kevin Steen.

Charlotte is actually good now because she can do some damage, and her support stuff is much better here. High Cleric is outclassed by Sage, and Warlock is arguably better than Necro, but all are technically sound.

Angela well she's broken as poo poo come the tomato camp. I wouldn't say shes the weak early since she still does damage well enough. They removed everything that made her bad in SFC...and then increased magic damage on top of that. WELP

Duran isn't that bad, he just suffers for the same reason Riesz and Charlotte do- he's a support-focused character dropped into a game where suddenly support is kinda superfluous because the non-support characters can take a few hits, avoid the ones they can't, and can wipe the battlefield in seconds without support.

That said, of the three I think Duran fares best. Even in Dark Duran's your beefiest boy and gets tools to draw attention from the other characters, making him something NONE of the other characters are- battlefield control. Light Duran can basically be your team's one stop defense shop, especially Paladin, while Dark Duran gives physical-focused team damage support and provides his own damage. He's never going to be the core of what makes a team works, just like Rieze or Charlotte, but unlike those two he's a useful piece that can't just have many of his best aspects replaced by the Night Market or another character - he's probably the one character who changes how I play the game most between him being on my team in some form and him not being on it, and I can respect that.

That said, ToM's character balance is definitely split between Angela/Hawkeye/Kevin being amazing and Duran/Rieze/Charlotte being 'there' outside of Edelfrei being almost on par with Kevin as a melee point character while being able to transition to being a distraction instead as desired, but eh.

Mr. Locke fucked around with this message at 02:51 on May 24, 2020

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



Shoenin posted:

Nightblade's problem is regular mooks die more or less immediately by that point in the game, and his boss damage is relatively low because of its damage gimmick being unable to actually work. Its still his strongest melee class even without it, but it shows just how weird his overall design is. Haven't tried Light Hawk yet but from ive heard they're pretty much just a lesser angela with some support, kinda like Ninja Master is.

Rogue is like an Angela ripoff with decent melee (no strong attack boosts, but I think Hawkeye has the best attack chains overall), Nomad is weird and all over the place and definitely my favorite class. Actually, Nomad is by far the strongest melee attacker of Hawkeyeís classes. Nightblade has higher raw attack from higher strength and a better weapon, but that canít compete with Pinpoint 2, Critical Damage and Moon Energy. Also all his major damage boosting powers (the above crit powers, Ambush 2 and Special Effect) apply to both weapons and spells, and he has a pretty decent attack spell in Poison Bubble. His defensive spells are also pretty strong if youíre controlling him. Heís super versatile as an attacker, caster and support character, and while he may not be the best at any one thing, he does everything reasonably well.

Shoenin posted:

Ive no idea why Dark Riesz doesn't get aura's. Its the biggest oversight in the game imo, and hurts those classes pretty bad even if they are supposed to be the attack classes. Vanadis is bad because most of everything it does, Star Lancer just does better. Bad healing doesn't make up for literally everything else. It can still work since her buffs are buffs, but there's too much "wtf?" about it like the (nonsensically)situational auras.

I think the lack of auras is the point. Her dark classes are more focused on damage and being player controlled, while her light classes are more support focused. Iím aiming for Dragon Master in my current play through, so Iíll have to see how she does, but Iíve read that itís quite solid. I find Vanadys to be okay on a melee team. Light Riesz has very strong CS gain if you control her, and Vanadysí CS 3 is very good. The problem is that her damage output is too low in Vanadys and the tankiness is mostly pointless.

If I were going to make a mod, Iíd swap the class passives of Valkyrie and Vanadys and buff both. Her light classesí weapons might need a buff too.

Shoenin posted:

Light Duran has the same problem Light Duran had in SFC. Damage sucks and is kind of pointless. Duelist is also kind of bad as well since too gimmicky and slow for its own good instead of just being GRUG SMASH like it should be. Duran for me is probably the worst designed character because only 1 of his end classes is good due to a overpowered ability and +crit damage, he'd be meh support otherwise without it. Plus they're chains so they'd be better on Kevin or maaaybe possibly Dark Riesz. Poor Guy.

I think the only real problem is Edelfrei. It shouldnít be one of the strongest support characters and one of the strongest attackers. If Edelfrei only did a little more damage than the light classes, Duranís class balance would be pretty reasonable. Of course, enemies need to be threatening and durable enough that a defensive class is important, and items need to be balanced compared to healing magic, too.

Shoenin posted:

Charlotte is actually good now because she can do some damage, and her support stuff is much better here. High Cleric is outclassed by Sage, and Warlock is arguably better than Necro, but all are technically sound.

I thought Charlotte was overpowered in the original and underwhelming now. Iíve only played Necromancer, though. Debuffs are much easier to come by now, so Black Curse is far less useful. Necromancer does pretty decent damage with summons in both games, but healing is amazing in the original (instant and basically unlimited) while itís been nerfed in this version and simple interface changes have made items much more usable. You could use items for everything in the original too, but inventory management would drive most players mad. Maybe Sage and Warlock could be very good as AI controlled casters with decent support, though.

Crystalgate
Dec 26, 2012


There has been talk about modding up enemy health, but what happens to less offensive oriented parties then? I guess the mod is for people who know the game and won't field a party that doesn't have the offense needed for the upped health, so that's fine. However, from a balance perspective, I don't think the underlying problem is really fixed by upping enemy health. I suspect that you would have to go trough every character and check how they contribute as well as what the game actually values. Basically, fixing the balance issues would probably alter the game very significantly.

Heithinn Grasida
Mar 27, 2005

...must attack and fall upon them with a gallant bearing and a fearless heart, and, if possible, vanquish and destroy them, even though they have for armour the shells of a certain fish, that they say are harder than diamonds, and in place of swords wield trenchant blades of Damascus steel...



How many super low offense teams are there that you could really stumble into? Hawkeye does at least reasonable damage in all his classes except maybe nightblade, which could use a buff. It might even be fine if max HP reduction worked properly on bosses. Kevin does good damage in every class, as does Angela. For Charlotte, only L/L doesnít really contribute much, the other classes are at least moderately competent damage dealers. Riesz and Duran in their light classes both lack damage, but I think that should be changed for Vanadys. That means to have a team with really poor damage output, youíd need to run something like Light Duran, Light/Light Charlotte and Light Riesz, which should be pretty obviously overlapping in roles. Youíd still be pretty much unkillable with that kind of party, though.

I think aside from Angela ending up really overpowered, if you nerfed or removed most of the broken chain abilities, removed the Beizer items, or at least made them into rare consumables, and nerfed or somehow limited healing items, the classes would end up reasonably well balanced.

From there you just have to make it so the strongest damage parties donít just kill everything before it can fight back. Even if you nerf damage dealers a lot (which would turn off a lot of people who just canít handle seeing numbers go down), I donít think you can accomplish that without buffing enemy stats in the late game.

Arkeus
Jul 21, 2013


Crystalgate posted:

There has been talk about modding up enemy health, but what happens to less offensive oriented parties then? I guess the mod is for people who know the game and won't field a party that doesn't have the offense needed for the upped health, so that's fine. However, from a balance perspective, I don't think the underlying problem is really fixed by upping enemy health. I suspect that you would have to go trough every character and check how they contribute as well as what the game actually values. Basically, fixing the balance issues would probably alter the game very significantly.

It feels like modding up enemy health would also help less offensive oriented party because it means their schitck would actually matter. Nightblade instant kill will be relevant, Duran's heals or Charlotte's would help, and Vanadys would probably look a bit better too?

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

Poque
Sep 11, 2003

This is gonna be fun!
Or else!


Going from Duran/Angela/Kevin (controlling Duran) to Riesz/Charlotte/Hawk (controlling Hawk) is like a whole new game and it's awesome. It's also super fun to play the first quarter of the game again with combat already feeling mastered.

At this point I'm leaning Kevin/Hawk/Riesz as my all-star NG+ file but still undecided. AI Kevin in my first file was really good about using CSes liberally - do any other chars get as good of CS% skills as DD Kevin did?

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply
«73 »