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RazzleDazzleHour posted:I love it when video games do a "tell don't show" and just tell me something that I did is bad without doing literally anything in-game to distinguish this particular map as different from any other map in the Fire Emblem series. How about you introduce Lonato before this map and talk to him a few times over the course of the game before now instead of expecting me to feel bad about this guy I've never met starting an uprising for reasons I won't learn until 40 hours later? How about making the enemies villagers armed with shoddy weapons, or who hesitate to fight you, instead of making them faceless Dark Mages and Myrmidons who aggro you on-sight just like every other map? How about giving them some dialogue? Anything? When you talk to everyone before the fight happens, you do learn a lot of things about him. You learn he is well loved and kind, you learn he adopted Ash when Ash tried to steal from him, you learn he used to be Pious. After the fight, you have multiple people freaking out about how Rhea acted. You never learn he is planning any kind of insurrection or anything of the sort.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:56
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Also yeah, the story of 3 Houses is definitely hurt by the fact they chained themselves to the Monastery and the calendar/1 battle per month system. It makes a lot of things play out in a really contrived fashion for no real reason and railroads that story.
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Jul 30, 2020 22:58
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Arkeus posted:You never learn he is planning any kind of insurrection or anything of the sort. https://fireemblemwiki.org/wiki/Lonato posted:In 1180, Lonato raises his troops in rebellion against the Church of Seiros, bent on revenge for them sentencing Christophe to death under false pretenses.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:01
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Arkeus posted:When you talk to everyone before the fight happens, you do learn a lot of things about him. You learn he is well loved and kind, you learn he adopted Ash when Ash tried to steal from him, you learn he used to be Pious. After the fight, you have multiple people freaking out about how Rhea acted. Yeah the problem with people saying that it's weird for him to start a rebellion is that fact that he does and he's way into it. All these characters tell you "oh, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do that" or "He wouldn't do that..." and then the player meets him and he is basically exactly the kind of person who would do that, where he's screaming about killing heretics and wants to do a violent coup very badly. This is the whole crux of show don't tell. You can't just TELL me that he's not the kind of guy to start a rebellion, I need to make that decision for myself. Honestly, I suspect that at some point in development, it was going to be revealed that Lonato was bodysnatched by a Slytherin but that plot line was dropped. That would also explain why he's got that fake assassination plan on him. .......this is making me wonder if Lonato was at one point supposed to have been framed entirely for this uprising
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Jul 30, 2020 23:04
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Yeah the problem with people saying that it's weird for him to start a rebellion is that fact that he does and he's way into it. All these characters tell you "oh, he doesn't seem like the kind of guy to do that" or "He wouldn't do that..." and then the player meets him and he is basically exactly the kind of person who would do that, where he's screaming about killing heretics and wants to do a violent coup very badly. This is the whole crux of show don't tell. You can't just TELL me that he's not the kind of guy to start a rebellion, I need to make that decision for myself. Yeah, there are some really weird cutscenes with Ashe and Catherine that don't really go anywhere. Then it just never gets mentioned again. There are more than a few areas of the game where you can clearly see the rewrites have been hastily stapled together.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:07
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Zore posted:Yeah, there are some really weird cutscenes with Ashe and Catherine that don't really go anywhere but hint Ashe found out something important. Did we actually stumble upon something with this
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Jul 30, 2020 23:08
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Honestly, I suspect that at some point in development, it was going to be revealed that Lonato was bodysnatched by a Slytherin but that plot line was dropped. That would also explain why he's got that fake assassination plan on him. Yeah people talk about him the same way they talk about how nice Cornelia or Arundel were before. I think they just convinced him the old fashioned way though since he was already miffed at the church. Edit: Could definitely see a cut subplot where Ashe learned Lonato was body snatched or something. Captain Cappy fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Jul 30, 2020 |
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Jul 30, 2020 23:08
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Captain Cappy posted:Yeah people talk about him the same way they talk about how nice Cornelia or Arundel were before. I think they just convinced him the old fashioned way though since he was already miffed at the church. Now see the whole thing with Christophe was so flimy that I wonder if that wasn't also another hastily-thrown-together plot device to give him a reasoning for doing a rebellion. The entire reasoning there of what he actually did and the reason for hiding it seemed really contrived and dumb
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Jul 30, 2020 23:11
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The whole game is hastily-thrown-together plot devices.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:13
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Now see the whole thing with Christophe was so flimy that I wonder if that wasn't also another hastily-thrown-together plot device to give him a reasoning for doing a rebellion. The entire reasoning there of what he actually did and the reason for hiding it seemed really contrived and dumb I was pretty sure there was going to be a reveal at some point that Christophe was body-snatched and Lonato rebelled because he would have correctly known there was no way his son was going to actually murder the archbishop so they were just lying to cover something much bigger up. Like there are so many ways they could have fleshed it out more and it seems like they mostly tried to cut the difference.
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Jul 30, 2020 23:16
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I'm personally convinced that Christophe was body-snatched and Lonato rebelled because he had no idea what had happened, other than that it was horrible and the Church covered it up, so he reasonably assumed it was their doing. E: This guy gets it
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Jul 30, 2020 23:34
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RazzleDazzleHour posted:Honestly, I suspect that at some point in development, it was going to be revealed that Lonato was bodysnatched by a Slytherin but that plot line was dropped. That would also explain why he's got that fake assassination plan on him. I'm not sure a bodysnatched Lonato would have bothered trying to talk Ashe down (and Lonato still seems to be religious and supportive of Sothis, just disbelieving of Rhea: "Rhea is an infidel who has deceived the people and desecrated the goddess! We have virtue and the goddess herself on our side!"), but I could see them either talking him into it using snatched faces, framing him for it (and at that point he'd know that his only options was for everyone to be executed when the Church arrived or fight and somehow win) or snatched Christophe, which later down the line triggered Lonato to rebel as he "knew" there was no fair reason to kill Christophe. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 00:39 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 00:36
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Shinji117 posted:I'm not sure a bodysnatched Lonato would have bothered trying to talk Ashe down (and Lonato still seems to be religious and supportive of Sothis, just disbelieving of Rhea: "Rhea is an infidel who has deceived the people and desecrated the goddess! We have virtue and the goddess herself on our side!"), but I could see them either talking him into it using snatched faces, framing him for it (and at that point he'd know that his only options was for everyone to be executed when the Church arrived or fight and somehow win) or snatched Christophe, which later down the line triggered Lonato to rebel as he "knew" there was no fair reason to kill Christophe. Well, again, this isn't true in the version of the game that we got, but I think the framework is certainly there for a version of the chapter where Lonato was bodysnatched. Everyone talking about how great he was, how he was loyal and would never start an uprising - then you meet him and he's nothing like anyone says. Like, the story was there, just quickly covered with a thin layer of paint. Most of the pre-chapter dialogue in the monastery with students and even the post-chapter dialogue would actually make MORE sense if Lonato was bodysnathed. I actually think a Lonato snatching makes more sense than Christophe - I think Christophe was added in very late in development as a justification for Lonato to rebel after the bodysnatching plot was dropped. If he were bodysnatched, I think the game would have talked about him more in the same way they do people like Arundel. Arundel at least has a decent amount of incidental dialogue about him - Christophe is only ever mentioned as a plot Device.
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Jul 31, 2020 03:48
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Lonato definitely is getting fed info from the Western Church, which we have heavily implied is all just Slitherer plans. The game multiple times mentions how the Western Church is becoming increasingly hostile to the Central Church, Lonato calls out that the central church is what needs to be destroyed, and christophe was implied to have ties to the WC as well, as why he turned against the church and Rhea.
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Jul 31, 2020 05:08
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Razzle, the reason people got so argumentative about you saying Rhea "should have been nicer" to make things ok is that in the context of the discussion "should have been nicer" means should have not been deliberately abuse and controlling through fear." Like imagine if the scene was a pimp telling one of his whores that they were going to watch him execute one of their number because she snapped and tried to kill him. (After her friend died from an od due to the drugs he controlled her with, but they dont need to know that) But don't worry, the likely won't have to help with the execution and they're mostly just there to watch and understand what happens when they cross their pimp. Rhea sending the kids in at all is incredibly hosed up, especially so with her stated reason. And the bandit chapter you keep referencing doesn't get accepted and is shown in a negative light. Literally every kid has a line when they get their first kill on that map and the vast majority of them are "holy poo poo, I just killed someone" or "this is awful." Really the thing with all the evil stuff the church does in act 1, I was surprised that got swept completely under the rug in act 2 for every route but edel's. E: also lonato's shift from someone who would never do that to deranged zealot is very clearly explained in game by the trauma of having his son executed and then finding out the stated reason was a sham. Broken people causing mass suffering(see literally every leader but claude) is kind of a theme in the game. FoolyCharged fucked around with this message at 13:15 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 13:12
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Trying to avoid a lot of the story spoiler stuff, so I started with Black Eagles (still super early in the first chapter). Should I probably then do Blue Lions > Fourth > Golden Deer, or does it not really matter that much storylinewise? What order should I do this in, or does it not really matter?
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Jul 31, 2020 14:05
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I wouldn't recommend doing 4th and deer concurrently, they cover similar ground
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Jul 31, 2020 14:18
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Fhqwhgads posted:Trying to avoid a lot of the story spoiler stuff, so I started with Black Eagles (still super early in the first chapter). Should I probably then do Blue Lions > Fourth > Golden Deer, or does it not really matter that much storylinewise? What order should I do this in, or does it not really matter? It really depends on how many times you're going to play through the game. Almost all the houses have different storylines (Deer and one of the Black Eagle routes are very similar) and are worth playing, but even just playing through Lions, Deer and the other Eagles route (the ability to choose your BE route can be found if you explore+talk to everyone in Chapter 11, or more specifically if you accept Edelgard's invitation ) is something of an investment and involves playing through the first half of the game (before the storylines truly diverge) several times, which can be a pain. Blue Lions is a very traditional FE story, Golden Deer/Black Eagles1(kill) is the "Fodlan Lore" story and Black Eagles2 (protect) is the most unique and revolutionary story. If you were just planning three routes and were already on Black Eagles, I'd recommend Black Eagles2, Blue Lions and then Deer. If you were planning on playing all routes and were already on Black Eagles, I'd probably go Black Eagles1, Blue Lions, Deer and then Black Eagles2. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 14:56 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 14:53
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Shinji117 posted:It really depends on how many times you're going to play through the game. Almost all the houses have different storylines (Deer and one of the Black Eagle routes are very similar) and are worth playing, but even just playing through Lions, Deer and the other Eagles route (the ability to choose your BE route can be found if you explore+talk to everyone in Chapter 11, or more specifically if you accept Edelgard's invitation ) is something of an investment and involves playing through the first half of the game (before the storylines truly diverge) several times, which can be a pain. So I'm not getting confused, Black Eagles1 is church and Black Eagles 2 is Edel?
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Jul 31, 2020 15:42
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I would recommend saving before the Black Eagles route split so that you can go back and do the other one without replaying the beginning again.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:43
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Fhqwhgads posted:So I'm not getting confused, Black Eagles1 is church and Black Eagles 2 is Edel? Yep Technically they're Silver Snow for Church and Crimson Flower for Edelgard, but erring on side of "least info given means smaller spoiler chance. Genovera posted:I would recommend saving before the Black Eagles route split so that you can go back and do the other one without replaying the beginning again. But wasting xp+tutoring on leveling Edel+Hubert during Clouds when going Church Route, or letting two of your better characters languish for Crimson route is always a hard sell, at least for me. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 15:47 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 15:44
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This part is more characte/mechanics spoilery but I don't care as much: If I do go Black Eagles1, I lose Edel and Hubert, but I've been investing into them. Is that wasted or do I keep that investment at all if I keep NG+'ing into her story eventually? I'm early enough on where I wouldn't mind restarting if it's wasted investment.
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Jul 31, 2020 15:49
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Fhqwhgads posted:This part is more characte/mechanics spoilery but I don't care as much: If I do go Black Eagles1, I lose Edel and Hubert, but I've been investing into them. Is that wasted or do I keep that investment at all if I keep NG+'ing into her story eventually? I'm early enough on where I wouldn't mind restarting if it's wasted investment. you'll still be able to buy supports or skill ranks you gained for them in ng+. anything else is gone iirc
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Jul 31, 2020 15:52
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Fhqwhgads posted:This part is more characte/mechanics spoilery but I don't care as much: If I do go Black Eagles1, I lose Edel and Hubert, but I've been investing into them. Is that wasted or do I keep that investment at all if I keep NG+'ing into her story eventually? I'm early enough on where I wouldn't mind restarting if it's wasted investment. If, as you said, you're still "super early in the first chapter" then you probably haven't invested enough to really be bothered. But you should still be able to buy your weapon/support progress back with Renown if you want to later. IIRC, character xp is wasted, though. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 15:52
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If you're not playing on maddening, it doesn't really matter. XP is plentiful.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:02
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Shinji117 posted:Yep I probably wouldn't do it on maddening because of what you said but I don't think it's a big deal on normal or hard. I just worry that people will burn out on doing White Clouds for the fourth time (especially using the same set of characters) and end up skipping one of the routes.
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Jul 31, 2020 16:09
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I personally can't imagine doing a half-playthrough of the game where I just picked up from before the timeskip and switched routes
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Jul 31, 2020 21:00
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 Having Edelgard fight Death Knight, Kronya, and Solon during White Clouds is great. All their lines are some version of "Wait. What the...? Are you seriously doing this right now?"Also, I missed it on my first playthrough as the Bleagles, but Hubert straight up vanishes for the month of Edel's coronation. 
AlternateNu fucked around with this message at 21:15 on Jul 31, 2020 |
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Jul 31, 2020 21:07
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Yeah, people complaining about having to replay White Clouds is weird to me when it’s the best part of the game by a mile. You even get to do it with different units, it’s like a whole new game
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Jul 31, 2020 21:09
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White Clouds is definitely the most cohesive part of the game, you can tell they spent the most time on it and the maps. After the skip the game is held together with band-aids and chewing gum
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Jul 31, 2020 21:14
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Fhqwhgads posted:Trying to avoid a lot of the story spoiler stuff, so I started with Black Eagles (still super early in the first chapter). Should I probably then do Blue Lions > Fourth > Golden Deer, or does it not really matter that much storylinewise? What order should I do this in, or does it not really matter? Do this. Black Eagles->Route 4->Blue Lions->Golden Deer. Also White Clouds is good but also units are far more restrictive. I had much more fun by the end of Verdant Wind when all my unit builds were realised.
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Jul 31, 2020 21:15
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White Clouds is good but it's not 'do it three and a half times for the full experience' good.
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Jul 31, 2020 22:24
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I wonder if it would have been better to make you choose you're route at the end of White Clouds instead of at the start. It would allow you to not have to replay it four times for one thing. But also being able to get to know all the students would have given killing them actual emotional weight on your first route. Plus it would have made the two lords you never taught being obsessed with you make a lot more sense, since now you were their teacher too. The only real downside I can think of is the question of how to deal with say, siding with Claude but you made your team of ten out Lions and Eagles kids.
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Jul 31, 2020 23:15
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I did not like having to replay White Clouds the second time (1st: VW, 2nd: AM) because I would skip cutscenes if they looked the same as something from Golden Deer and then found out later that they were different.
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Jul 31, 2020 23:28
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White Clouds would be better if it didn't force you to do the tutorial again even in NG+.
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Jul 31, 2020 23:58
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God, Blue Lions is such a downer playthrough compared to Golden Deer. I'm only just past the timeskip, but it just doesn't let up with the angst. Thank god for Sylvain.
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Aug 1, 2020 00:01
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My time between playthroughs was such that I really don't mind. Maddening is basically a totally different game anyways, plus on my final time through I'll be nabbing the DLC to make it way different anyways
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Aug 1, 2020 00:02
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Inu posted:God, Blue Lions is such a downer playthrough compared to Golden Deer. I'm only just past the timeskip, but it just doesn't let up with the angst. Thank god for Sylvain. It was a real downer on my end as well. I just really hate AM, especially after how upbeat VW is.
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Aug 1, 2020 00:24
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Natural 20 posted:It was a real downer on my end as well. I can definitely see that, and it's more frustrating when it seems like AM got the most attention/development out of the routes. I really do like the Blue Lions though, except Dimitri and Gilbert
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Aug 1, 2020 01:12
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The nice thing about Blue Lions is that the main character is Dimitri and the antagonist is also Dimitri, so there's no way the two most important characters won't get enough screentime.
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Aug 1, 2020 01:50
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