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Digital Osmosis posted:Does Rhea play much of a role in Azure Moon? Dimitri's mental state is the primary driver for the story in Azure Moon but Seteth's main goal is still Rhea. The two big plot points for the storyline is to restore the kingdom at the same time kill Edelgard. I will say I feel Azure Moon's story is more "grounded" and based more on the tragedy of Duscar and how people deal with war.
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Feb 23, 2021 22:25
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that was a very circuitous way to say "no"
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Feb 23, 2021 22:32
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do u believe in marigolds posted:Dimitri's mental state is the primary driver for the story in Azure Moon but Seteth's main goal is still Rhea. The two big plot points for the storyline is to restore the kingdom at the same time kill Edelgard. I will say I feel Azure Moon's story is more "grounded" and based more on the tragedy of Duscar and how people deal with war. At the same time, the focus of AM is very much on the 'Tragedy of Duscur' (the royal assassination) and not on the 'Punishment of Duscur' (the genocide the Kingdom committed in response).
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Feb 24, 2021 00:24
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Those are two events both under the name "Tragedy of Duscur", its just a euphemism.
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Feb 24, 2021 00:27
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Rimusutera posted:Those are two events both under the name "Tragedy of Duscur", its just a euphemism. quote:Dedue: Faerghus destroyed my homeland. Burned it all to the ground. Slaughtered my people. Like, whenever Dimitri goes off on "we need to find the true culprits of the Tragedy of Duscur" he's clearly only talking about the assassination; if he was talking about the genocide then the culprits are pretty easy to find given that they're the Kingdom’s nobility, who have never covered up their actions in the punishment of Duscur. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 00:46
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I think you're maybe splitting hairs here; the events are seen as interconnected, an offhand remark by Felix isn't an official name being presented for the genocide and Dimitri pursues the true culprits behind the Tragedy because he believes the Duscur people were blameless, he can't punish the nobility publicly or go against them because they still have the public narrative that the Tragedy was instigated by the Duscurians backing their actions. That the genocide is generally seen as just an extension of the massacre of the royal family shows how hosed up Faergus is more than anything, and the fact its talked about it that way reinforces this.
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Feb 24, 2021 01:21
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So I feel like there's a good chance I'll end up doing Azure Moon but uh, is there anything interesting or redeemable about it's politics at all? Because what I've gathered aside from "these minorities didn't actually kill my dad but let's not worry about their genocide" it seems like Dimitri's all about "gently caress reforming or re-ordering society in any way, I'm the prince so things are good." Admittedly I got a lot of him on Crimson Flowers where he was like a somewhat heroic but misguided antagonist but it doesn't sound like he's fighting for much on AM other than idk, his own sanity? If Rhea's not in it much, if it's just mostly a character study, is there anything he's actually trying to achieve? Or just "No, Not Edelgard, Not Ever?" I've heard all three routes end optimistically with things poised to be better but I'm not sure how that squares with what I've heard about AM.
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Feb 24, 2021 05:34
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It's largely 'yeah things are kinda messed up in Fodlan re: crests, when I finally become king I want to make a society where people will be treated fairly'. That said, aside from Sylvain, it's perhaps the most 'rigid' in terms of status quo despite the fact that many of its members (Ingrid, Annette, Dedue, Mercedes) have had their otherwise normal lives disrupted due to circumstance. Azure Moon, without giving away too much, is largely a character growth journey. It's not so much political revolution as compared to CF/VW, so it's a much more 'typical RPG, not so much Fire Emblem where you kill god' route.
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Feb 24, 2021 05:46
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Digital Osmosis posted:I feel like we're neck and neck, lol. I also am just getting into Golden Deer after a Crimson Flower run. One thing I did dig was that a lot of that detail was in the CF run, just abbreviated. Like I'm sure there's a ton of internal Alliance politics I'll get to soon but in CF it was basically "Claude has it on lock and turned their divisions into strategic neutrality / okay now that Claude's gone here's who we'll actually need to fight because everyone is is down with the empire.". Similarly I've read some of the lore spoilers that Golden Deer get into and knowing that Edelgard knew all that makes a lot more of her route make sense. Weird they didn't just have her break it all down though, you'd think someone who's whole deal is "gently caress the church!" wouldn't play coy with their secrets. Maybe she knew a little less than the whole story and didn't want to put any misinformation out there? Cyril has a funny support with Manuela and I would use him in VW since he has supports with Claude. His support line with Lysithea is also very cute. Cyril can be very annoying but I’ve come around on him a bit. Mechanics wise having him to archer and brigand with the goal of wyvern rider is probably the best.
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Feb 24, 2021 05:58
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Cyril is weird because it's not 100% clear that the game realizes that he's the victim of Rhea's manipulation, as opposed to characters like Sylvain or Lorenz, where the game clearly knows what's wrong with them even if some people hate them anyway. (In part this is because Rhea probably hasn't actually noticed the degree to which she's taking advantage of him to his detriment.)
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Feb 24, 2021 06:15
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Some supports indicate that Cyril's labor is far beyond what anybody actually wants from him. One of them, I think the one with Byleth where he talks about getting a message from Seteth, actually suggests that much of his activity is unneeded. It's less a matter of using this orphan as a menial servant, and more a matter that he's so starved for affection that he works himself to the bone in order to feel accepted. Like most of the cast, that boy needs therapy. Of the three routes, Azure Moon is the one least concerned with the political implications of its events. I recommend against attempting a political reading at all, because you're gonna come away unsatisfied. Dimitri isn't motivated by ideology, and really significant revelations from other routes that could drastically recontextualize the entire premise are simply not acknowledged. In particular, forget what you know about Edelgard having or wanting independence from Those Who Slither in the Dark.
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Feb 24, 2021 06:48
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Digital Osmosis posted:So I feel like there's a good chance I'll end up doing Azure Moon but uh, is there anything interesting or redeemable about it's politics at all? Because what I've gathered aside from "these minorities didn't actually kill my dad but let's not worry about their genocide" it seems like Dimitri's all about "gently caress reforming or re-ordering society in any way, I'm the prince so things are good." Admittedly I got a lot of him on Crimson Flowers where he was like a somewhat heroic but misguided antagonist but it doesn't sound like he's fighting for much on AM other than idk, his own sanity? If Rhea's not in it much, if it's just mostly a character study, is there anything he's actually trying to achieve? Or just "No, Not Edelgard, Not Ever?" I've heard all three routes end optimistically with things poised to be better but I'm not sure how that squares with what I've heard about AM. AM’s ending has things “poised to be better” because, with it’s hyperfocus on Dimitri, the bad aspects of Fodlan (caste system, feudalism, xenophobia, Slytherins etc) get basically no real attention. The Slytherins aren’t discussed at all, Rhea’s whole deal gets nothing, Byleth remains an enigma and Edelgard’s objectives aren’t elaborated on so that she can stay the standard Evil Invading Red Emperor who the Blue Prince must beat to Bring Back Peace. The ending is ‘good’ because A Good King and His Friends are in power, and the Bad Empire is defeated and that’s good, right? Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 07:01 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 06:49
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Azure Moon is basically Great Man History. Good things happen because they're ushered in by strong, good kings. If a King is bad, then the system should not be questioned, the King should be deposed. I don't find it too bad because it's clearly standard fantasy faire that even LoTR fell into, but yeah there's not much hyperprogressive there in politics. I think the most interesting part of Azure Moon is collective trauma and how groups of friends deal with it. EDIT: for what it's worth I think his politics make a lot of sense for somebody of that era and probably also for nobility in Fodlan as a whole... The idea that the system could work if only there weren't lovely people in places of power, is a strong one if you think you and your friends are The Good Ones. And while I'm pretty sure Dimitri goes on to do a lot of good things, there's no guarantee a future king won't undo them, so meh. Deltasquid fucked around with this message at 09:10 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 09:06
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It's not like any of the other routes result in republics or democracies, so I always found it weird when people complained about that aspect of Azure Moon.
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Feb 24, 2021 09:36
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People like to project Edelgard as Lincoln when she's really closer to Louis XIV or Emperor Augustus. Shove nobility to the side and replace their power with civil servants (and the Empress herself)
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Feb 24, 2021 09:43
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AM gets poo poo for it because it's very clear throughout the entire route that the reason Dimitri thinks it's fine to keep status quo—that people will oppose a bad king—is constantly being proven wrong and the game doesn't even try to make it seem like the rest of the cast is even trying to stop him when he's at his worst. They just stand off the the side and fret. None of the others have their route's claims proven to be absolutely nonsense by the text of the game. You can rightly point out that meritocracy is a fake concept for assholes, but the game doesn't go out of its way to prove that Edelgard is being an idiot for chasing it in her own route.
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Feb 24, 2021 09:48
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Hellioning posted:It's not like any of the other routes result in republics or democracies, so I always found it weird when people complained about that aspect of Azure Moon.
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Feb 24, 2021 09:54
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He does set up some form of House of Commons, I thought.
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Feb 24, 2021 10:03
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Airspace posted:He does set up some form of House of Commons, I thought. The closest we have to that is his solo end (which leaves Slytherins unaddressed but w/e) quote:He was known for listening intently to the voices of all, and for instituting a new form of government in which the people were free to be active participants What this is is completely unspecified, and nothing in-game (supports, dialogue, w/e) hints at what it would be either. It could be anything from a house of commons and constitutional monarchy to a suggestion box nailed outside the palace. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 10:12 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 10:08
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Shinji117 posted:
I mean, in CF the Slytherins only appear in these end cards, meanwhile in AM you at least kill one of their agents. Shinji117 posted:What this is is completely unspecified, and nothing in-game (supports, dialogue, w/e) hints at what it would be either. It could be anything from a house of commons and constitutional monarchy to a suggestion box nailed outside the palace. Sure, that's valid. As a counterpoint let me quote from Edelgard's. quote:In her later years, she entrusted her life's work to a worthy successor before finally vanishing from the public eye. Edelgard's got a decent head on her shoulders for the most part, and probably will give the position to a Worthy Successor, probably someone else from the CF team. They also have good intuitions, and will also give the seat to a Worthy Successor. But after that? After that? It takes one person to go "My Worthy Successor is my eldest child." And Fodlan goes right back where it was before.
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Feb 24, 2021 10:45
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There is literally no system that could prevent that from happening.
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Feb 24, 2021 10:47
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Airspace posted:I mean, in CF the Slytherins only appear in these end cards, meanwhile in AM you at least kill one of their agents. Airspace posted:Sure, that's valid. As a counterpoint let me quote from Edelgard's. All of this theoretical though, as all the endings are presented as "this works out in the end" (somehow), so it's mostly just a question of what the endgoals are and what was done in the process of reaching them rather than if they were achieved. As a player, you're supposed to assume that the Blaiddyd dynasty rules well for generations in AM, Claude does manage to make Fodlan more open to foreigners in VW, and that Edelgard does somehow institute a working meritocracy in CF. If the game actually ended with "the Blaiddyd dynasty hosed up, got guillotined and the Slytherins emerged victorious" or "Claude's pushes for diplomacy made Fodlan retreat in on itself even more, leading to even more xenophobia" or "Edelgard's reforms failed in the longterm and it was back to feudalism for another millenia" then no-one would be walking away happy. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 11:13 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 11:11
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Digital Osmosis posted:So I feel like there's a good chance I'll end up doing Azure Moon but uh, is there anything interesting or redeemable about it's politics at all? Because what I've gathered aside from "these minorities didn't actually kill my dad but let's not worry about their genocide" it seems like Dimitri's all about "gently caress reforming or re-ordering society in any way, I'm the prince so things are good." Admittedly I got a lot of him on Crimson Flowers where he was like a somewhat heroic but misguided antagonist but it doesn't sound like he's fighting for much on AM other than idk, his own sanity? If Rhea's not in it much, if it's just mostly a character study, is there anything he's actually trying to achieve? Or just "No, Not Edelgard, Not Ever?" I've heard all three routes end optimistically with things poised to be better but I'm not sure how that squares with what I've heard about AM. You're getting into the thread descending into insanity territory. So allow me to cause it to happen faster. No, the politics of AM aren't redeemable. The system that caused the genocide isn't questioned, it's reinforced. The people who were forcibly conquered, then murdered are never given their freedom. This is excused because some of Dimitri's best friends are brown men. AM made me really sad when I played it.
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Feb 24, 2021 11:49
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I view Azure Moon as the "villain" route, both because of the events on that route and because I'd already played Crimson Flower. I think the strongest case for Edelgard is Ferdinand. She desparately want someone other than Ferdinand to be prime minister because she finds him personally grating, but she has to concede that he has a lot of good ideas and is by far the most qualified candidate there is. Unless he marries Manuela, in which case she becomes the prime minister and he gets to be a stay at home dad, which is wholesome as hell.
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Feb 24, 2021 12:13
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Tired Moritz posted:There is literally no system that could prevent that from happening. Isn't that pretty much the point? All of the leaders do some kind of reform but none of them are that viable in the long run and the war fucks everyone over.
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Feb 24, 2021 12:15
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But.... the future refused to change.
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Feb 24, 2021 12:25
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This is why Silver Snow is the OTE because it tells every preexisting leader to gently caress off.
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Feb 24, 2021 14:22
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not a bot posted:Isn't that pretty much the point? All of the leaders do some kind of reform but none of them are that viable in the long run and the war fucks everyone over. Or maybe all of them are viable in the long run. Who knows? Byleth is immortal and will keep that poo poo in check.
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Feb 24, 2021 14:56
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Tired Moritz posted:Or maybe all of them are viable in the long run. Who knows? Byleth is immortal and will keep that poo poo in check. Also, you know, CF. Shinji117 fucked around with this message at 15:05 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 15:02
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Byleth is me and I am never wrong, checkmate.
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Feb 24, 2021 15:18
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Zulily Zoetrope posted:I view Azure Moon as the "villain" route, both because of the events on that route and because I'd already played Crimson Flower. Their A support has Ferdinand basically come up with the idea of public schools and he says he wants to make that a focus of his work. Like his entire thing on nobility is he believes that nobles have the training and resources to do more than non nobles and that's why they have to be good people and do more than anyone else. So when Edelgard wants to disband the nobility he starts thinking of how to best share those advantages with everyone. This is why Ferdinand is best boy.
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Feb 24, 2021 15:33
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I think AM is able to handwave the dealing with the nobility responsible for the genocide question because like, half of them are probably dead from siding with Edelgard + Cornelia. The people who side with Dimitri are the new generation and heirs and he's a Good King TM who will help build a new relationship with Duscur, he's a good friend to Dedue! Just make sure you did his paralogue so he actually lives. Its a very interpersonal lense but its the only one we really get for AM and reflects maybe more on the worldviews of the writers or the problems with the ideas they want to explore then on things internal to the text actually being way worse than we're making them out to be.
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Feb 24, 2021 16:32
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The real biggest issue with AM is it tries to unironically go 'If the King is bad, the people will replace him' right after like a dozen chapters showing literally the opposite of that where Dimitri's friends and supporters are all super concerned about about him but sort of happily follow him on a suicide mission of vengeance and torture. The only real pushback he even gets is Byleth murdering a prisoner of war before he can gruesomely torture them. And all of this is predicated on the fact that he's hallucinating and believing something that is explicitly not real. Like goddamn, if he doesn't count as a lovely king that people should be giving pushback against at the point who in the gently caress would? AM would be way stronger and more coherent as a route if the others had abandoned him or given him an ultimatum before his big personal revelation instead of meekly just going along with everything and hoping it worked out. Also if he had abdicated and passed the throne to someone who was better at ruling. Like I think AM has a decent emotional arc but it is absolute character assassination for most of the Blue Lions and makes them horrific cowards who undermine its supposed message.
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Feb 24, 2021 17:36
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Yes but have you considered Dimitri is a total husbando
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Feb 24, 2021 18:18
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I think the nobility aren't the 'people' as it were who are being alluded to here, or should be the final decider in these matters, and they're most of the default AM cast. Rather than that sort've self contradiction this of course leads to 3 Houses' writing problem over all in that it presents very little of the actual views of the peasantry/lowerclasses and them as actual people but spends a lot of time talking about what is supposed to be in their interest.
Rimusutera fucked around with this message at 18:31 on Feb 24, 2021 |
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Feb 24, 2021 18:28
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Yeah, the only true commoners in the game are Leonie, Raphael, Ignatz, and Dorothea as far as I'm aware (Ashe is an adopted noble, Mercedes and Dedue are special cases) and all of their stories and insights tend to be about their personal stories rather than commoners as a whole.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:34
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Raph and Ignatz are also from well off merchant families to boot. Leonie's the closest thing to a working class stiff you ever get for students, and then there's also Cyril who is a former child soldier, slave and now janitorial staff for the monestary.
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Feb 24, 2021 18:55
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Zore posted:The real biggest issue with AM is it tries to unironically go 'If the King is bad, the people will replace him' right after like a dozen chapters showing literally the opposite of that where Dimitri's friends and supporters are all super concerned about him but sort of happily follow him on a suicide mission of vengeance and torture. The only real pushback he even gets is Byleth murdering a prisoner of war before he can gruesomely torture them. thanks, I agree with this and I'm gonna steal this when I argue with people about AM next time.
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Feb 24, 2021 19:18
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Fire Emblem battles are like, who'd win between a church samurai and a pirate wizard?
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Feb 24, 2021 19:24
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those are all good points that make sense to me. Now I know. One day Fire Emblem will have a main character create a republic. One day.
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Feb 24, 2021 20:17
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