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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I'll be honest I kinda want to see you watch 21 just so we can all hate it again vicariously through you.

But don't. Its very, very bad. And racist. And misogynist. And just plain mean. Except for Ovi and Nicole. They were rays of light in a terrible, terrible storm.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 04:35 on May 11, 2020

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BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

#1 CAPITALS FAN
Available on the App Store


STAC Goat posted:

I'll be honest I kinda want to see you watch 21 just so we can all hate it again vicariously through you.

But don't. Its very, very bad. And racist. And misogynist. And just plain mean. Except for Ovi and Nicole. They were rays of light in a terrible, terrible storm.

I probably will end up watching it, but BB13 is proving to be a MUCH needed palate cleanser.

BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

#1 CAPITALS FAN
Available on the App Store


So I was poking around CBS All-Access and made the enormous mistake of watching Big Brother Over The Top instead of BB21. Holy poo poo that was awful. I canít even imagine how BB21 could be worse than this dumpster fire. The premise was really interesting but inserting a returning player into that was incredibly stupid, and the whole thing felt Grodnered to death.

BB seems to have settled into a formula. I spend 99% of the season absolutely loathing the cast while everyone in the house does everything they can to prop up the one returning player...

...and then that obnoxious jackass gets owned in the finale.

I donít like it one bit. Itís not fun to watch. Itís excruciating watching the returnees spend the whole season being insufferably smug and awful both inside the DR and the house. I guess itís better than seeing the worst person on the season win, but I donít want to watch it anymore.

I donít think I can do BB21 for a while. Iíve slogged through way way waaaaaaaaay too much awful television this month. Maybe Iíll try BB21 in a couple weeks or something. I donít think thereís enough of a palate cleanser season in the history of BB after this garbage.

...but Iím gonna try. Itís time to bring out the biggest gun in the armory: BB10.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



Well the good news is BB21 has no returning players.

The bad news is it has quite possibly the most insufferably smug and awful cast in BB history.

BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

#1 CAPITALS FAN
Available on the App Store


STAC Goat posted:

Well the good news is BB21 has no returning players.

The bad news is it has quite possibly the most insufferably smug and awful cast in BB history.

So itís season six all over again?

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



I think I might actually put BB6 as worse just because I really can't think of any high notes or good moments. BB21 is terrible but it has (a) two of the nicest houseguests cast in BB history and (b) one of the single most universally loved weeks in BB history. It also had a couple of rare instances of genuine apologies. Unfortunately nearly everything else is kind of terrible and horrible.

But as best as I recall at least no one mocked someone's suicide.

I suppose as I think of it the best way to describe the difference between the two is that BB6 is like a whole house of assholes being assholes to each other and BB21 is a large alliance of assholes being assholes to the minority of the house. So I can see how people might digest BB6 easier but I can also see why someone might find it easier to have someone to like on BB21.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 07:30 on May 23, 2020

BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

#1 CAPITALS FAN
Available on the App Store


oof, that sounds rough. Iím not sure Iíd dig awful people bullying the hell out of decent people. Big Brother 11 is one of my least favorite seasons in part because of the meathead guy bullying and harassing the hell out of that nerdy guy.

Welp. Iíll probably end up watching BB21 eventually but for now Iím catching up on Survivor and then itís time for some Dan Gheesling magic.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



BB21 may have also completely killed the have nots mechanic.

RenegadeStyle1
Jun 7, 2005

Baby Come Back

Its definitely killed the have-nots punishment and they might as well not bring it back. Even before season 21 they hardly showed people being have nots for a while. I never even really remember who is a have-not. I mean they used to have an entire show dedicated to the haves and have not competitions and really show the effects of being it during the show.

sbaldrick
Jul 19, 2006
Driven by Hate


They need to up the have nots so we can get another Dan BB14 moment

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



It feels like a fundamental flaw to assume that just because they bent over backwards to kill Have Nots for one dude who refused to or was incapable of cooperating with them that they'll be consistent about that and not just bring them back next season anyway. This IS Big Brother and its arbitrary as gently caress.

I actually think they keep Have Nots around just for the extra room and house division. I actually do think there's some benefit from not allowing the sides of the house to just divide up into their own rooms all season. But there's probably other ways you could mess with that.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 21:24 on May 23, 2020

Twin Cinema
Jun 1, 2006



Playoffs are no big deal,
don't have a crap attack.


I am not particularly well-versed in reality shows, but BB21 and Survivor 39 were the two worst seasons back-to-back.

Max
Nov 30, 2002



Yes.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



The CBS reality show casting department probably had a stern talking to after the second straight show finale entirely focused on what terrible monsters the cast were.

bbf2
Nov 22, 2007

"The White Shadow"

STAC Goat posted:

I think I might actually put BB6 as worse just because I really can't think of any high notes or good moments. BB21 is terrible but it has (a) two of the nicest houseguests cast in BB history and (b) one of the single most universally loved weeks in BB history. It also had a couple of rare instances of genuine apologies. Unfortunately nearly everything else is kind of terrible and horrible.

But as best as I recall at least no one mocked someone's suicide.

I suppose as I think of it the best way to describe the difference between the two is that BB6 is like a whole house of assholes being assholes to each other and BB21 is a large alliance of assholes being assholes to the minority of the house. So I can see how people might digest BB6 easier but I can also see why someone might find it easier to have someone to like on BB21.

I'm pretty sure you're thinking of BB9, not BB6.

BB6 is the one with Janelle and Kaysar etc. versus the "Friendship." Lots of high notes and good moments and is generally considered one of the better seasons even though the bad guys ended up winning.

BB9 is the irredeemable winter season one with no good guys, where someone mocked his castmate's father's suicide and said she should follow in her father's footsteps, and was won by a guy who ended up going to prison for many years.

BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

#1 CAPITALS FAN
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Nah, BB6 was terrible. The Sovereign Six were exposed as fraudulent whiny children on BB7, and were only likeable sitting next to (and losing horribly to) the most obnoxious alliance in the history of reality television: The Friendship/Nerd Herd.

I guess the best positive spin you could put on BB6 was that it set up a bunch of enormously hateable tomato cans for Dr Will to knock down in BB7. Exposing Kaysar and James as a total joke was particularly sweet.

BB9 was awful too, but BB6 will forever be the standard by which awful seasons of reality television will be judged.

STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



No, bbf2 is right. I meant BB9. BB9 is a toxic poo poo show with like nothing redeeming I can think of.

I liked BB6 the one time I watched it. I mean, I see the arguments against it and I donít know that Iíd want to watch it again. Thereís a poo poo load of toxic behavior from both sides. Janelle, James, and Howie are deeply flawed ďheroesĒ that would be villains on near any other season. I love Kaysar but he obviously let his ego get ahead of his gameplay. But like it has a constant back and forth, lots of twists and turns, and a ton of assholes eating poo poo. I mean, again, I get why Janelle is a less than ideal protagonist and sheíd be a huge villain 4 out of 5 times. But that did happen to be the fifth time it worked, at least for me. At least one time. And I can still go back and rewatch the episode where Kaysar flips the house.

I think itís a little silly to say Sov 6 lost horribly to Friendship. I mean Janelle made F3. But BB stops being much of a game past like F6.

My problem with BB6 is that itís left this legacy where BB fans are forever wanting a deeply divided house and that poo poo just doesnít work. BB6 was a perfect storm of power flips and betrayals driven in large part by two comp beasts on the smaller side. Most of the time that house war plays much less interesting and you get poo poo like Level 6 vs Foutte. The game is much more interesting when itís more fluid. But bb fans rather root for a team than see good gameplay because theyíre all holding onto how much they liked BB6. But like itís only a divided house until one side gets the numbers and everyone folds. And that always happens.

And of course BB has done stupid poo poo like the Battle of the Block and the Hacker that just encourage sticking with the numbers.

mancalamania
Oct 23, 2008


STAC Goat posted:

No, bbf2 is right. I meant BB9. BB9 is a toxic poo poo show with like nothing redeeming I can think of.

I liked BB6 the one time I watched it. I mean, I see the arguments against it and I donít know that Iíd want to watch it again. Thereís a poo poo load of toxic behavior from both sides. Janelle, James, and Howie are deeply flawed ďheroesĒ that would be villains on near any other season. I love Kaysar but he obviously let his ego get ahead of his gameplay. But like it has a constant back and forth, lots of twists and turns, and a ton of assholes eating poo poo. I mean, again, I get why Janelle is a less than ideal protagonist and sheíd be a huge villain 4 out of 5 times. But that did happen to be the fifth time it worked, at least for me. At least one time. And I can still go back and rewatch the episode where Kaysar flips the house.

I think itís a little silly to say Sov 6 lost horribly to Friendship. I mean Janelle made F3. But BB stops being much of a game past like F6.

My problem with BB6 is that itís left this legacy where BB fans are forever wanting a deeply divided house and that poo poo just doesnít work. BB6 was a perfect storm of power flips and betrayals driven in large part by two comp beasts on the smaller side. Most of the time that house war plays much less interesting and you get poo poo like Level 6 vs Foutte. The game is much more interesting when itís more fluid. But bb fans rather root for a team than see good gameplay because theyíre all holding onto how much they liked BB6. But like itís only a divided house until one side gets the numbers and everyone folds. And that always happens.

And of course BB has done stupid poo poo like the Battle of the Block and the Hacker that just encourage sticking with the numbers.

I actually think BB20 was a nice illustration that "divided house" seasons DO work, it's just the balance is extremely delicate and once one side pics up momentum things start to snowball. We got through a solid 60% of BB20 with Foutte and Level 6 roughly alternating power and it was awesome, it only started to suck in the last few weeks when Foutte started dying a death by a thousand mostly self-inflicted wounds (in particular the 1-2 punch of Rockstar accidentally giving Tyler the veto followed by Fessy's HoH mess was almost impossible to recover from).

The alternate universe where Tyler loses that veto and is evicted at Final 9 or whatever and Level 6 crumbles and Fessy uses his subsequent HoH to target Kaycee and Angela could have produced a really exciting BB20 endgame.

BGrifter
Mar 16, 2007

#1 CAPITALS FAN
Available on the App Store


You nailed my big issue with BB6 STAC, on any other season the Sovereign Six would be considered villains, and rightly so. Itís only the world-class unlikability of The Friendship that got them a pass.

They were astoundingly smug for an alliance so poor at playing the game. Janelle was the closest to competent in the whole alliance and her ceiling is ďdollar store knockoff Rachel ReillyĒ.

Their sole saving grace was how much fun it was watching them get utterly demolished the following year. Probably the most overrated alliance in the history of BB or Survivor.

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STAC Goat
Mar 12, 2008

Watching you sleep.

Butt first, let's
check the feeds.



The problem with BB20 was that it was only a divided house war superficially. Level 6 had the majority the whole way, just outside the L6 core but with JC, Sam, Kaitlyn, as well as Haleigh, Bayleigh, and Scottie always trying to "play the middle". And then the numbers could have flipped on Haleigh's HOH but the Hacker devalued it because even though game devices theoretically could serve to flip things realistically they're more liking to benefit the majority.

Plus, you know... again the house war largely comes down to a game that's about who wins comps. L6 were really bad at winning comps so the first half of the game stayed pretty lively and L6 really SHOULD have been dismantled pre-jury but not for Tyler's manipulations of Kaitlyn, Sam, and JC. But then Tyler got tired of playing when people started to recognize what he was doing and call him on it. At that stage Haleigh's HOH could have turned the house but the Kaycee won Hacker and it was undone. Then Fessy, Haleigh, and JC all blow their games in one move taking out Scottie and from then on L6 just wins all the comps through a numerical advantage.

That's the problem. The game only allows "divided houses" if the power keeps flipping. But in the modern game winning HOH isn't enough to flip power. You also gotta win all the superpowers. BB6 was a different game where Kaysar or Janelle could win HOH and gently caress with people. And Janelle won a LOT of HOHs so she kept loving with people. But without that kind of comp beast its a tough thing to maintain.

BGrifter posted:

You nailed my big issue with BB6 STAC, on any other season the Sovereign Six would be considered villains, and rightly so. Itís only the world-class unlikability of The Friendship that got them a pass.

They were astoundingly smug for an alliance so poor at playing the game. Janelle was the closest to competent in the whole alliance and her ceiling is ďdollar store knockoff Rachel ReillyĒ.

Their sole saving grace was how much fun it was watching them get utterly demolished the following year. Probably the most overrated alliance in the history of BB or Survivor.

I mean, 15 years later I don't think anyone still really holds Sov 6 highly. They largely killed their luster in All Stars and Janelle and Howie's behavior has aged badly. But like, Kaysar while not a GREAT player by any means was one of the few seemingly decent people on that cast and did a good job flipping the house. And Janelle and James were comp beasts with character. And Howie was a character. So you know... people enjoyed it and I don't think its hard to see why, especially when played against how unlikable Friendship were and how satisfying it was to see Janelle ruin their day.

But in 2020 I don't think many people are really gonna be ranking any of them highly.






edit: To me the clearest example of bad "house wars" is BB17. Ok, you start with James and Jason forming a majority and Vanessa, Austin, Shelly, the Twins, and Steve are on the outside of it. Vanessa and Austin manage to flip the house and gain the majority and all that's left of James and Jason's crew are them, Meg, and Jackie. People are rooting for them because they're "the other side" but they're also really bad, passive players. I theorized we would have gotten better play if we quickly dismantled them and FFed to Vanessa vs Austin vs Shelley vs Steve. And I think that ended up being one of the better end games in BB history even without Shelly in the mix. But because James and Becky* won a bunch of comps we delayed that out for some weeks of hoping Jason and Meg would stand up. Literally.

*Poor Becky. A tragic story of someone outside the majority at the start of the game, offered a spot in the minority revolt and turning it down because she misjudged her game position, the revolt works and flips the house, and then Becky has no choice but to align with the overthrown anchor scraps.

I could talk all day about BB17.

STAC Goat fucked around with this message at 17:40 on May 25, 2020

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