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OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Further rewatch thoughts - it's never shown who Regina's father is. Possibly Tronte? That would make Bartosz and Martha cousins.

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kustomkarkommando
Oct 22, 2012



muscles like this! posted:

I guess one thing I'm unsure of from the finale is whether or not Alternate Martha is a new thing or did Fonas (Future Jonas) meet her too? Because so far it seems like everything that is happening to Jonas happened to Fonas too. Also wondering if it is going to turn out that Noah and Agnes are related to someone else since it was implied they also come from the future.

I think future Jonas did meet her previously as there seems to be no other way he could have avoided the apocalypse. I'm thinking that Adam and co's plan to destroy the world may be informed by the knowledge of the other world - maybe some kind of "there can be only one" deal with the continued existence of the main "bad" timeline posing a threat to the other Jonas-less world?

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


Dark Season 2: Vor vielen, vielen Jahren, als ich dreiundzwanzig war...

Joust
Dec 7, 2007

No Ledges.


Save Wöller's eye, Save the world.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


This is precisely the kind of show that doesn't benefit from Netflix dumping everything all at once.

Skex
Feb 22, 2012

SKUX


Gromit posted:

Speaking of CGI, I'm surprised that the effects team didn't ever put a reflection of the dark matter bubble into the visors of the various protective suits. It's like they shot it with that in mind but never bothered.


I love high-quality foreign shows but I feel The Rain is a bit weak. I'm not sure what it is I don't like - maybe the writing is lazy? I just watched a trailer for The Sniffer and it looks well shot but the premise seems really dumb. IMDB gives it a good rating, but do you have anything particular to say about it? Is it played serious, or more like a cross between a Jason Statham movie and Limitless like it looks in the trailer?

The point wasn't that they were all masterpieces of entertainment but that they are interesting simply because they give a glimpse into cultures other than American and English. In fact the lesser shows are almost more interesting because they aren't made for external distribution so there isn't any effort to make them appealing to "international" audiences.

The Sniffer was fun, it's more like Elementary with Sherlock stripped of most of his special skills other than his super sniffer. One of my favorite bits was when the main character was visiting a private medical practice and bitching about hating private practices compared to socialized medicine which is a huge contrast compared to anything you'd see in the US. It's also cool to have a main character who isn't a bad rear end (that's his cop buddy's role). Oh and Limitless was awesome and should have gotten more seasons just because I like it when the main characters are actually good guys/gals rather than the usual tired anti-hero bullshit that everything seems to want to be now.

Dark however is definitely a cut above most shows foreign or domestic. One of, if not the best "time travel" shows ever assuming they don't jump the shark in the final season.

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!



Really enjoyed the second season. Hard to believe they topped themselves in the "go ahead, we dare you not to give us another season" season finale, but there it is. In recommending this show to my sister I spoiled the fact that the show contains time travel. Woops.

If anyone is looking for another dour European mystery show I can't recommend Black Spot enough, which is also on Netflix. It was on Amazon around the time it aired and then they dropped it and it fell into a streaming black hole for a couple years but Netflix picked it up and now has the second season (which for full disclosure I have not seen and somehow missed the announcement it was out). I don't want to say too much about it because I watched it on a whim and went in blind and it was great.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?



Clanpot Shake posted:

Really enjoyed the second season. Hard to believe they topped themselves in the "go ahead, we dare you not to give us another season" season finale, but there it is. In recommending this show to my sister I spoiled the fact that the show contains time travel. Woops.

If anyone is looking for another dour European mystery show I can't recommend Black Spot enough, which is also on Netflix. It was on Amazon around the time it aired and then they dropped it and it fell into a streaming black hole for a couple years but Netflix picked it up and now has the second season (which for full disclosure I have not seen and somehow missed the announcement it was out). I don't want to say too much about it because I watched it on a whim and went in blind and it was great.

Black Spot (confusingly originally called Zone Blanche), starts out very promising, but the second season runs out of interesting things to do. The crime of the week formula barely disguises that the characters are pretty shallow, and that the main mystery isn't really all that interesting.

Dark is a cut above most things, and it's definitely not representative of the awful cesspool of ambitionless crime shows and soaps that is most German television. The last good German shows I've seen are Der Tatortreiniger, about a Big Lebowski-style character who cleans up crime scenes for a living, and Ijon Tichy, a janky surrealist comedy in the vein of The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. No clue if they are actually available in any other language. There is also a German show on Netflix called How to Sell Drugs Online (Fast), which is supposed to be a decent drug dealer drama, but I haven't seen it, yet.

d0s
Jun 28, 2004



that last scene had OA vibes I bet they're going to do a tie-in lmao. all those germans are gonna end up in california doing dance routines to get back to der fatheruniverse

e: btw has anyone noticed the conspicuous absence of nazis in this german show about time travel in the 20th century. I bet the "knot" was created by someone going back in time to kill hitler, the current universe is one in which hitler never existed. in the third season they're gonna save hitler

d0s fucked around with this message at 20:37 on Jul 6, 2019

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


d0s posted:

that last scene had OA vibes I bet they're going to do a tie-in lmao. all those germans are gonna end up in california doing dance routines to get back to der fatheruniverse

e: btw has anyone noticed the conspicuous absence of nazis in this german show about time travel in the 20th century. I bet the "knot" was created by someone going back in time to kill hitler, the current universe is one in which hitler never existed. in the third season they're gonna save hitler

IIRC Germany has very strong and specific laws regarding depictions of Nazis.

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!



d0s posted:

e: btw has anyone noticed the conspicuous absence of nazis in this german show about time travel in the 20th century. I bet the "knot" was created by someone going back in time to kill hitler, the current universe is one in which hitler never existed. in the third season they're gonna save hitler

Nazis weren't really a thing in any of the years the show takes place in.

except 2019

d0s
Jun 28, 2004



Clanpot Shake posted:

Nazis weren't really a thing in any of the years the show takes place in.

right but what about the intervening years. it's very convenient that we go right before the nazis and right after, I think they'e hiding a big ol nazi reveal

ArmZ
Jun 5, 2004

You are what you want.





Grimey Drawer

d0s posted:

right but what about the intervening years. it's very convenient that we go right before the nazis and right after, I think they'e hiding a big ol nazi reveal

they think you will nazi it coming, but you've already been through that timeline

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

They can't do anything explicit because of German law. But I think it definitely hangs heavy in the background. Dopplers ambitions in the 1953 period always make me think of the accusation of many German leftists - that the nazi project was never really dismantled in the West and many perpetrators just kind of carried on in positions of minor authority. Certainly Doppler, Tiedemann, and the elder Kahnwald would have been involved in the war effort in some way.

Winden is super white too. Except for Yasin.

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?



OrthoTrot posted:

They can't do anything explicit because of German law. But I think it definitely hangs heavy in the background. Dopplers ambitions in the 1953 period always make me think of the accusation of many German leftists - that the nazi project was never really dismantled in the West and many perpetrators just kind of carried on in positions of minor authority. Certainly Doppler, Tiedemann, and the elder Kahnwald would have been involved in the war effort in some way.

Winden is super white too. Except for Yasin.

Yeah, take a look at Wolfenstein. If you want to use Nazi imagery in your work of fiction, you'll have to convince the German government that you're doing it for a good reason:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1hK4Px4O8aE

The German countryside still has a mostly white population. In cities like Berlin, you'll encounter just as much diversity as anywhere else, but not so much in out-of-the-way communities like Winden.

This is something I just found out: Apparently the German census does not include ethnicity. The government refuses to segregate citizens based on their ethnic heritage, so there's no way to find out. Its exclusion is supposed to prevent racial discrimination (and there are doubts about how useful such data would be to begin with).

It's definitely true that, similar to soviet Russia, a lot of people from the old government just kind of stuck around because there was no way to replace them. Teachers, judges, business men, lots of old Nazis making life worse for everyone.

And More fucked around with this message at 19:19 on Jul 7, 2019

d0s
Jun 28, 2004



I swear I watched maybe a couple years a german period show (totally forget the name) set in the 1930s with nazi bad guys but I may be misremembering, or maybe it wasn't actually german produced but set in germany

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?



d0s posted:

I swear I watched maybe a couple years a german period show (totally forget the name) set in the 1930s with nazi bad guys but I may be misremembering, or maybe it wasn't actually german produced but set in germany

That's absolutely possible. You can assume, though, that those were likely very well researched (aka not about alternate realities or time travel). Fictional Nazis in sci-fi settings are not as easy to get approved, and you'll probably have to fight for it in court because it's decided on a case by case basis.

The law goes something like this (don't quote me, I'm not a lawyer):
- The distribution of tools of propaganda "Propagandamittel" (signs, gestures or phrases) is prohibited.
- This does not apply if the tools of propaganda are used to educate, defend against unconstitutional endeavours, for art or science, […] as part of coverage of historical events.

So, it's not impossible to do. You just have to prove to the judge that you're making art or reporting on real events. Inglourious Basterds was released in Germany without a single edit. I assume they proved that it's art because its educational value is fairly small. It's probably just too much of a hassle for most studios to jump through all the hoops.

Horse Inspector
Aug 11, 2005
privacy publicly displayed


OrthoTrot posted:

My own theory on Bartosz: He's the guy Noah kills in the season opening scene.

I'm pretty sure that guy is the real Aleksander Kohler.

Also the only thing im confused on is how come middle Jonas doesn't remember Adam killing Martha when that happened to a younger Jonas? It seems to me new Martha is breaking the loop by universe hopping. We are seeing the whole thing finally start to unravel and change.

Also, several references are made to the start/end of the loop. Adam first tells Jonas it's his father's suicide, then indicates its killing Martha, but would the real loop point be the incident at the plant when the substance is first created?

Horse Inspector fucked around with this message at 09:46 on Jul 8, 2019

MVega
Jan 20, 2012

You're disgusted at yourself. You don't want to betray any more. Now you want to respect the law. Some give flowers. Some, precious objects. You bring me your life as a gift. You are not afraid to die. This is why you are a dangerous enemy.


Horse Inspector posted:

Also the only thing im confused on is how come middle Jonas doesn't remember Adam killing Martha when that happened to a younger Jonas? It seems to me new Martha is breaking the loop by universe hopping. We are seeing the whole thing finally start to unravel and change.
Middle Jonas does remember. It's why he kept looking at the floorboards where Martha died in the earlier episodes this season.

Horse Inspector
Aug 11, 2005
privacy publicly displayed


Ah of course, thank you. In that case I wonder what her letter said? If it wasn't just an outright lie of course.

CeeJee
Dec 4, 2001


Oven Wrangler

Horse Inspector posted:

I'm pretty sure that guy is the real Aleksander Kohler.


He does look like the picture in the passport but his eyes are the wrong color. The actor, Ramon Knizka, wears dark contacts but it's possible the character he plays wears them to appear like future Bartosz

But lots of people can resemble each other in certain photos but not at all in others. I was looking for what young 2019 Regina would look like and ended up with Fransizka (and Hans Landa)

CeeJee fucked around with this message at 14:50 on Jul 8, 2019

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Horse Inspector posted:

I'm pretty sure that guy is the real Aleksander Kohler.

No idea on spoilers anymore, but just in case

Out of curiosity what are you basing that on? They look similar? That's a good a basis as any

From a storytelling point of view my own theory was basically:

Three people are saved by Jonas. We've seen the other two, therefore Bartosz has to be a reveal of some kind. And that guy is the only significant person from that period we've met but don't know.

Thoughts on season 2 ending:

I expect we've seen the influence of the other dimension before, in the form of the torch. It's presented as futuristic but the timeline we see has no future that could produce it. It can't come from the timeline we have focused on so far. Jonas has gone to a new timeline, and the origin of the torch in our story is future Jonas.

It's also completely different stylistically from the other devices we see like the apparatus and the chair. That's because Adam and Sic Mundus built those but didn't build the torch.

Leon Sumbitches
Mar 27, 2010

Dr. Leon Adoso Sumbitches (prounounced soom-'beh-cheh) (born January 21, 1935) is heir to the legendary Adoso family oil fortune.







Buglord

I don't have much to add as far as theorizing, but this show is making me want to relearn German. I studied it for six years and recognize words from almost every sentence, I'm curious how hard it would be to get conversational again.

Honj Steak
May 31, 2013

Hi there.


Even Indiana Jones has Nazis and swastikas in the German version. For movies it’s really not that complicated to show these things and you get it often enough in German television. However, video games were not legally considered art until last year, so the comparison with Wolfenstein is not really valid. The reason why they chose to avoid the Nazi period might just be because they didn’t want to include an overused trope.

Looten Plunder
Jul 11, 2006


Grimey Drawer

I liked Season 2, but no where near as much as Season 1. I was kind of getting tired of the whole good guy/bad guy switcheroos.

And the ending? Sorry, I audibly groaned. This whole show has been built on the Fixed Point time travel trope and now they are going to throw in the alternate timelines stuff? And Hannah's wig just immediately made me see eye-patch Morty and Dark Timeline Abed. It was comical.

RevKrule
Jul 9, 2001

Thrilling the forums since 2001

I binged the whole series over the weekend. Stranger Things 3 was much better than I expected but this really shone.

I spent yesterday thinking about the ending of season 2 and I can't help but wonder if alternate timelines are something that's actually new. If they didn't, how could they have escaped the apocalypse? Adam's door seems to be the first instance of someone harnessing time travel at their whim to visit any location. Even if there was another method, who was supposed to pick him up? Wouldn't they have shown up before he was taken by Martha B? If this was planned, it makes the answer of what happens next even more interesting to me honestly. It also lends itself to Jonas/Martha at the top of the "Tree" but it's Jonas A and Martha B

Season 2 has much more a 12 Monkeys the Series vibe with a lot more of time loops circling in on themselves and other relationship paradoxes. I am curious about what outcome they want us to root for though since neither Adam nor Claudia are that sympathetic or altruistic in their reasons for wanting their particular opposing result.

Also, I'm in the camp that Noah's first victim is Aleksander. I think that without Aleksander, there's little reason for the inspector who comes in to look harder at Kohler. Without that extra level of scrutiny and without it being so personal, the inspector wouldn't have pushed to tear open the plant and cause the apocalypse.

RevKrule fucked around with this message at 13:24 on Jul 9, 2019

HamsonBunce
Aug 28, 2011


Regarding Alexander Köhler: His real name is very interesting. I wouldn't put it past the writers to throw it in as a red herring, but Boris Niewald has to be somewhat connected to the Nielsen and Kahnwald familie tree

Clocks
Oct 2, 2007




Just binge-watched this over the course of like a week. Normally I do binging just fine but boy is Dark kind of tiring to watch, so much poo poo happens in each episode. Show is great though and I've gone and recommended it to everyone I could.

CeeJee posted:

Thanks for this true effortpost, I'll be getting depressed, confused and rained on the coming days in Winden.

One character that was only in season one for 5 seconds and I suspect will get a bigger presence is Welcome To The Future Girl:



She is played by the insanely talented Lea van Acken who is way too good to just appear randomly.

I have the notorious goon face-blindness but I swear this girl looks like she's connected to Hannah (she looks just like her young version) somehow. We actually don't know who Hannah's parents are, all we know is that her "dad"(?) was some dry-cleaner dude in 1986 and that she's probably the absolute most unsympathetic character there is. And that she stays behind after visiting '53 Ulrich and smokes in Egon's office, who we know dies single in '86. So like, who's with me?

Re: Bartosz: for a bit I got him confused with his dad Aleksander because they look same, which makes sense since he's his son, but we also know Aleksander is actually named Boris and doesn't come from where he's supposed to. I guess that's two question marks there.

Iodised QQ
Jul 23, 2004

WHERE DA LEAD AT


You know a show is good when a reveal that two women are each other's mother and daughter causes you to react by saying "yeah, alright, cool" and you keep eagerly watching instead of turning it off immediately.

Really like season 2 and although I'm a little wary with alternate universes getting thrown in at the end possibly making this get a little too wild the show runners have done such a great job at keeping things neat and tidy with no glaring inconsistencies thus far, so I'm definitely all in on season 3.

C-Euro
Mar 20, 2010



Soiled Meat

Finally got around to watching the finale and lmao this show rules. I feel like I really need to watch seasons 1 and 2 back to back before the eventual season 3 though. My wife was super-pissed about the ending though.

HanabaL03
Nov 12, 2003

We're spread, we're spread, we're spreading our.... wings!


Binged season 1 last week and finished season 2 today. Holy poo poo, what a well done mind gently caress. How is this show not more popular? This is easily one of my favorite shows ever made.

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!



HanabaL03 posted:

How is this show not more popular?

Literally everyone I have recommended this to who has not heard of it replies, "oh I don't watch things with subtitles"

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Both seasons are available with English dubs.

BioThermo
Feb 18, 2014



I'm starting to rewatch and have a bunch of responses to speculation, but I gotta say I kind of loved how badly 'shopped the Tiedemann family photo was in season 1



and I'm a little disappointed they took a real photo for season 2.

HanabaL03
Nov 12, 2003

We're spread, we're spread, we're spreading our.... wings!


BioThermo posted:

I'm starting to rewatch and have a bunch of responses to speculation, but I gotta say I kind of loved how badly 'shopped the Tiedemann family photo was in season 1



and I'm a little disappointed they took a real photo for season 2.



Rewatching it again with my girl (her first time) and was reminded of something that bugged me the first time I watched. Why do they all wear their wedding rings on their right hands?

And More
Jun 19, 2013

How far, Doctor?
How long have you lived?



HanabaL03 posted:

Rewatching it again with my girl (her first time) and was reminded of something that bugged me the first time I watched. Why do they all wear their wedding rings on their right hands?

They're German.

HanabaL03
Nov 12, 2003

We're spread, we're spread, we're spreading our.... wings!



Thanks!

Combat Pretzel
Jun 23, 2004

No, seriously... what kurds?!

Anyone who understands German well enough should watch "Er ist wieder da!" / "Look Who's Back". The actor, who plays Ulrich Niessen, is doing a confused Hitler in that one.

HanabaL03
Nov 12, 2003

We're spread, we're spread, we're spreading our.... wings!


Clocks posted:



Re: Bartosz: for a bit I got him confused with his dad Aleksander because they look same, which makes sense since he's his son, but we also know Aleksander is actually named Boris and doesn't come from where he's supposed to. I guess that's two question marks there.

I think Boris possibly comes from the same universe our new Martha came from. I always found it intentional that we never got anything about his origin story.

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remigious
May 13, 2009

Destruction comes inevitably


Hell Gem

I feel like if it were any other show, the ending of season 2 would have seemed hokey and dumb, but here it works. The writers clearly have an entire plot mapped out and I can’t wait to see where it’s going.
I really want to learn German now. People have asked me before if I speak it, since I have a very German last name. Nope, but I’d like to!

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