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xerxus
Apr 24, 2010


Grimey Drawer

So did the Origin gently caress both versions of Agnes, and abuse both versions of Tronte?

I'm not very satisfied with the ending.
Did not like the Out of the Blue secret Third World that magically had the solution. It didn't feel connected enough to the rest of the series. Once Claudia had the knowledge why didn't she just do it herself? It's not hard to stop the Tannhaus boy from driving off and being killed. Just go back 20 minutes earlier and sabotage the car in the Origin World.

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Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


I'm willing to bet the writers had a fourth season that Netflix wasn't willing to fund.

Speculation only: this season focused on a Mobius band but the show had previously featured the three overlapping triangles. I think the knot, as originally conceived, was a third timeline that worked with the other two as a closed system. Clausen, and Boris were foreshadowing another faction and that's why they were dropped.

xerxus posted:


Once Claudia had the knowledge why didn't she just do it herself? It's not hard to stop the Tannhaus boy from driving off and being killed. Just go back 20 minutes earlier and sabotage the car in the Origin World.

As written Claudia couldn't fix things inside the knot because Tannehause never built the machine because he got a replacement level Charlotte delivered before he could fall too deeply into grief. In theory, she could have wasted Charlotte, Elizabeth, or Noah AND stopped the Tannehouse kid's accident but I think the hitch is she couldn't without unwriting the method by which she learned how to stop it.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts fucked around with this message at 20:56 on Jun 29, 2020

RevKrule
Jul 9, 2001

Thrilling the forums since 2001

xerxus posted:

So did the Origin gently caress both versions of Agnes, and abuse both versions of Tronte?

I'm not very satisfied with the ending.
Did not like the Out of the Blue secret Third World that magically had the solution. It didn't feel connected enough to the rest of the series. Once Claudia had the knowledge why didn't she just do it herself? It's not hard to stop the Tannhaus boy from driving off and being killed. Just go back 20 minutes earlier and sabotage the car in the Origin World.

To piggyback a little off of what Chef Boyardeez Nuts said.

Jonas and Martha don't exist in the real world. Both of them only exist because of the spiraling paradoxes. Claudia on the other hand absolutely exists so if she were to attempt to stop Marek, it would either always fail (for the same reason that Jonas couldn't kill himself) or it would create another paradox that puts them right back in the same (or worse) situation.

Mr_Moose
May 4, 2004


I think the concept behind The Origin is cool but the execution and characterization is admittedly wonky.

Traveling in 3 stages of their life makes them more or less invincible. The only one who could feasibly be killed when they're all together is the oldest, but even then killing just him wouldn't guarantee being able to stop the other two.

Presumably the oldest would have memories of these events happening twice before to reinforce that they live through it, plus they establish that you cannot kill yourself if an older version of you exists so they wouldn't die by initiating the apocalypse event.

In contrast to Jonas (or Alt Jonas)/Adult Jonas/Adam and Alt Martha/Adult Alt Martha/Eva the Unknown/Origin work as a unit and don't have to lie to each other, which is why they were so effective and menacing. No secrets. Despite being murderers and potential domestic abusers they had the healthiest self relationship of both worlds, plus they're the only "child" in the show that had at least one parent who was completely honest with them from the onset about who they were.


So it's cool as a concept (Invincible Causality Exploiting Time Trio Guarantees Infinite Self Birth) but the show didn't let them be much of actual characters versus a self-perpetuating machine. Which may have been the point?

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


In between the specific 20 minutes of action we see, the origin spends his entire life in a bunker watching Netflix.

Shimrra Jamaane
Aug 9, 2007

Aloy, Despite the Nora


The “problem” with the ending is that is that there’s a paradox in that Jonas and Martha wouldn’t have been able to go and stop the car wreck killing the family without the dual universes being created, meaning with the universes now gone how could they stop it?

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


Causality is clearly on a minute delay.

sticklefifer
Nov 11, 2003

TOO EASY

Dark: Seriously, I'm My Own Grandpa

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



Thoughts on the series.

I was really hoping that the 'shock' ending would be a clear indicator that even Claudia's plan and the prevention of the car accident was part of a much larger interlocking set of loops.. I'm not really sure what to take away from the last scene at the dinner table other than maybe Jonas and Martha end up being real people in the real world.

I did like the Tannhaus storyline right at the end, it's an interesting concept that "trying to invent time travel creates a complete nightmare of paradoxes, the only way out of which is to prevent the time travel happening in the first place, which will inevitably take place, therefore time travel will never be invented." It's just a different story to the one that I thought the show was telling which was "try as hard as you want, there is absolutely no way to break determinism."

I feel like I was right by saying that the universe couldn't break it's own rules. The Deus Ex Machina in this case is the moment at the apocalypse where things can be different for reasons. Personally I don't think this works even as presented, because all the character motivations and actions in between those moments would be identical. Whatever happens in those moments at the apocalypse should have the same inputs and outputs every time other than, perhaps, quantum fluctuations. The Schrodinger Cat situation where Jonas is either saved or not shouldn't work because it's not a closed system and not subject to the whims of truly random quantum phenomena.


It's a fine end to a TV show but as a timeless work of science fiction art I'd much rather have seen sure, the world they wanted to create exists.. as one of a kaleidoscope of interlocking universes that eventually wrap around into creating each other. It would have been much darker but more fitting to the mood tone set throughout the show. I don't think I needed a happy ending. The journey was better than the destination, in this case. Seasons 1 and 2 are timeless classics and the cliffhanger at the end of Season 2 was incredible. Most of Season 3 was also great. When the show started to break its own rules after Adam annihilated Martha it was still enjoyable, but a significant departure from what came before.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


Pretty sure that was the goal from the start but Netflix's Season Three order included a "wrap it up" directive.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Chadzok posted:

Thoughts on the series.

I was really hoping that the 'shock' ending would be a clear indicator that even Claudia's plan and the prevention of the car accident was part of a much larger interlocking set of loops.. I'm not really sure what to take away from the last scene at the dinner table other than maybe Jonas and Martha end up being real people in the real world.

I did like the Tannhaus storyline right at the end, it's an interesting concept that "trying to invent time travel creates a complete nightmare of paradoxes, the only way out of which is to prevent the time travel happening in the first place, which will inevitably take place, therefore time travel will never be invented." It's just a different story to the one that I thought the show was telling which was "try as hard as you want, there is absolutely no way to break determinism."

I feel like I was right by saying that the universe couldn't break it's own rules. The Deus Ex Machina in this case is the moment at the apocalypse where things can be different for reasons. Personally I don't think this works even as presented, because all the character motivations and actions in between those moments would be identical. Whatever happens in those moments at the apocalypse should have the same inputs and outputs every time other than, perhaps, quantum fluctuations. The Schrodinger Cat situation where Jonas is either saved or not shouldn't work because it's not a closed system and not subject to the whims of truly random quantum phenomena.


It's a fine end to a TV show but as a timeless work of science fiction art I'd much rather have seen sure, the world they wanted to create exists.. as one of a kaleidoscope of interlocking universes that eventually wrap around into creating each other. It would have been much darker but more fitting to the mood tone set throughout the show. I don't think I needed a happy ending. The journey was better than the destination, in this case. Seasons 1 and 2 are timeless classics and the cliffhanger at the end of Season 2 was incredible. Most of Season 3 was also great. When the show started to break its own rules after Adam annihilated Martha it was still enjoyable, but a significant departure from what came before.

I agree with l of this. I also think there are ways to resolve the Schroedinger's Jonas without breaking their deterministic rules. I'll work it out more since I'm phoneposting but I think the last episode feels a lot different from everything else and I wonder if it was somehow changed from their original vision.

Duzzy Funlop
Jan 13, 2010


We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon.


Just finished it, and as a card-carrying Deutschbag, I really feel like I didn't deserve those last couple of minutes.

Alas, I am what I am, and if nothing else, this series as shown me that I need to embrace my nationality and that my people are born emotionally-challenged.

Capital Letdown
Oct 5, 2006
i still cant fix red text avs someone tell me the bbcode for that im an admin and dont know this lmao

End of series ... minor question

What happens to Bartosz! I wanted to see him get stuck on tunnel duty. It seemed like they were starting to have him get antagonistic with Stranger Jonas and they were starting to fight and argue, but then it seems he just kinda worked as a mechanic and had a family life! I don't really understand when or how he gets stuck digging it out, and then why Adam has him killed by Noah.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


Leave it to the Germans to make the one time travel show where noone takes a shot at Hitler.

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007


Soiled Meat

I noticed they very carefully avoided anything in the 30s and 40s

Clanpot Shake
Aug 10, 2006
shake shake!



ending chat but kinda general: Kinda bummed Magnus and Franziska had nothing to do. They just end up being henchmen for Adam and apparently just stagnate as people, never bucking his influence the way Bartosz does.

Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

Pretty sure that was the goal from the start but Netflix's Season Three order included a "wrap it up" directive.

My SO who pays more attention to these things says 3 seasons was always the plan. You can kinda see the finales for seasons 1 and 2 being them daring netflix not to renew them.

GABA ghoul
Oct 29, 2011

You're all I think, this thing set troublin


Absolutely nailed the ending. I guess this is what happens when you start out with a great finished story in mind, instead of making poo poo up along the way.


Did Tannhauser in the original universe actually do anything with his time machine, apart from creating the tunnel? I thought his plan was to travel back in time to prevent the car accident, but then we never see him actually do anything.

Also, still have no idea what tthe purpose of BBQing the kids in the bunker was, apart from keeping the loop intact. If it was just time travel experiments, couldn't they use a rat or steal an ape from the some local zoo or something? Murdering kids seems slightly excessive.

Duzzy Funlop
Jan 13, 2010


We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon.


GABA ghoul posted:

Absolutely nailed the ending. I guess this is what happens when you start out with a great finished story in mind, instead of making poo poo up along the way.


Did Tannhauser in the original universe actually do anything with his time machine, apart from creating the tunnel? I thought his plan was to travel back in time to prevent the car accident, but then we never see him actually do anything.

Also, still have no idea what tthe purpose of BBQing the kids in the bunker was, apart from keeping the loop intact. If it was just time travel experiments, couldn't they use a rat or steal an ape from the some local zoo or something? Murdering kids seems slightly excessive.


Would you say it seems...dark?


Okay, that's my time, you guys were awesome!

ArmZ
Jun 5, 2004

You are what you want.





Grimey Drawer

there are a lot of props from this show i would like to own for some reason: that globe flashlight, those leather backpacks, 80s cassette players, the WW1 style rad/chem suit, the leather notebook with the triquetra, some of the art

Fedule
Mar 27, 2010


No one left uncured.
I got you.


It's the opposite of official but for at least another six hours there's a qwertee that might interest some.

Batmasterson
Dec 6, 2010

Bang Bang Bang

GABA ghoul posted:



Also, still have no idea what the purpose of BBQing the kids in the bunker was, apart from keeping the loop intact. If it was just time travel experiments, couldn't they use a rat or steal an ape from the some local zoo or something? Murdering kids seems slightly excessive.




I believe this was done to give certain characters the right motivation to make their actions. The disappearing of the kids is what starts Urlich on his entire path, for example. Erik going missing is what leads the children out to the cave, resulting in the disappearance of Mikkel. Really, any situation or decision made by characters with knowledge of the loop can be explained by saying they know it has to be done to put all of the pieces in their correct places.



One scene I haven't really seen discussed here (sorry if I missed anything) is the final scene of the show. Hannah's explanation of her dream is an interesting choice for the last big monologue of the whole series. Was she just having a connection to her self in the 2 destroyed children universes? Or were they trying to imply that this world was also split from another world, and that all realities go on infinitely splitting into new loops? I guess its purposefully open ended, I need to rewatch the scene.

Zazz Razzamatazz
Apr 19, 2016

No hunks allowed, ya dangus

Just finished it. I liked it, wrapped things up pretty well. It took me a minute to figure out why Ulrich wasn't there at the end. It will probably take me a while to wrap my head around the family trees in this show. If you time travel- don't have sex. That was my takeaway. I can get how Hannah can have a new Jonas, but for a new Martha- who did Katharina end up with?

Dark: Tired of getting jerked around by my future self

Which is the opposite of my real life- it's always my past self that's screwing things up for me, hate that guy...

Chadzok
Apr 25, 2002



Is it possible that the scene is suggesting that Mikkel is not Jonas’ father after all? And therefore he didn’t need to be so worried about incest? Maybe Hannah slept with that police dude to father Jonas in the loop world too. Did they have any interactions through the series?

Frionnel
May 7, 2010

Friends are what make testing worth it.

Imo she only thinks Jonas is a good name.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Frionnel posted:

Imo she only thinks Jonas is a good name.

Yeah I took it to just be that. At most its another cross-worlds echo like how Ulrich always cheats on his wife and how Peter has a thing for Bernadette/Benjamin in all three universes. Jonas is a name Hannah likes for whatever reason and I don't think its anything beyond that. Probably.

Bonk
Aug 4, 2002

Douche Baggins

Just catching up now, but this show has exposed me to a lot of great music: I had tickets for a Dead Can Dance show that's been postponed until next year, but I didn't even realize until seeing this show that Agnes Obel is opening for them, because I looked her up after hearing a couple of her songs in Dark. If I'd seen them back in May when the show was supposed to be, I wouldn't have known who she was. Now I'm extra hyped for it.

DuhSal
Aug 16, 2004

I will, brother. I promise.




Pillbug

Bonk posted:

Just catching up now, but this show has exposed me to a lot of great music: I had tickets for a Dead Can Dance show that's been postponed until next year, but I didn't even realize until seeing this show that Agnes Obel is opening for them, because I looked her up after hearing a couple of her songs in Dark. If I'd seen them back in May when the show was supposed to be, I wouldn't have known who she was. Now I'm extra hyped for it.

yea the music on this show is exceptional.

muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



Finished s3 and it definitely feels like they could have used at least a couple more episodes because stuff felt really rushed at the end. Especially when Claudia shows up and says she figured everything out off screen.

ArmZ
Jun 5, 2004

You are what you want.





Grimey Drawer

muscles like this! posted:

Finished s3 and it definitely feels like they could have used at least a couple more episodes because stuff felt really rushed at the end. Especially when Claudia shows up and says she figured everything out off screen.

deus ex claudia

it did feel rushed but i also didn't want to repeat everything for the third world given how much repetition there already was in the third season plot. the pacing was pretty good over three seasons all things considered especially considering the deja vu conceit of the show.

divx
Aug 21, 2005



Anyone remember seeing "Fiat Lux" on the cave doors in one of the first two seasons. I remember seeing it somewhere, but in season 3 its "Erit Lux". The CC translated it the same (let there be light), but it actually means "there will be light". I assume the change was meant to foreshadow the happy ending.

Bonk
Aug 4, 2002

Douche Baggins

Just finished it after binging throughout the week, and I felt like they stuck the landing. I would've been perfectly happy with an extra season, or at least 10 episodes instead of 8 for seasons 2 and 3, but I'm glad it didn't stretch out and overstay its welcome, and got to tell its full story. I would've liked some closure with certain characters, Ulrich in particular, and I was a bit lost in mid-season 3 until the last couple episodes explained a lot, but I'm very satisfied with it. I will definitely rewatch knowing everything I know now, and see how much I pick up the second time around.

One thing I consistently found stunning was how well-made this show was. From start to finish, everything from the cinematography to the music, set decoration, costumes, acting, special effects, and holy poo poo the casting were all pretty incredible. I hope it wins a bunch of awards for the production values alone.


Clanpot Shake posted:

ending chat but kinda general: Kinda bummed Magnus and Franziska had nothing to do. They just end up being henchmen for Adam and apparently just stagnate as people, never bucking his influence the way Bartosz does.
I thought that made sense given all their respective relationships with Jonas. Magnus and Franziska always liked him, and Bartosz was buds with him but now just kind of knows him as the guy who stole (back) his girlfriend.

When Jonas tackled Alt Martha out of time in the finale, I had to laugh thinking about what the immediate aftermath of that scene must have been. I picture Magnus just staring for a few seconds and then saying "Well... gently caress."

I like that there were little comedic bits among so many miserable characters, but they were subtle, like Woller's injury and the sheer amount of extremely awkward hugs and people not answering cell phones (or maybe I just assume it was meant to be funny because of how often it happened).

Bonk fucked around with this message at 10:15 on Jul 3, 2020

The Missing Link
Aug 13, 2008

Should do fine against cats.


I just finished season 3 and I am still processing what happened.

I think it was inevitable that both timelines winked out of existence. Untie the knot and they would burst like a bubble. I just wished Jonas and Martha got to survive in the Origin world after saving Tannhaus' family.

I'm putting this in spoiler tags but I don't think it's a spoiler. The car Bartosz is working on in 1911 shouldn't be there. It's a Chevrolet Series C Class 6. You can clearly see the Chevrolet logo on the front. Chevrolet wasn't incorporated until November of 1911 and the model didn't go into production until late 1912. In Michigan. So not only should the car not exist at the time, and in the wrong part of the world, it should also be brand new.

the_enduser
May 1, 2006

[CENSORED]
(Content Violation)



Finished the series and had a question about one thing really.

How did Martha's world end up making a time machine that can jump world's so easily?? I feel like this was never touched on and everyone was using the sphere machine all the time. Adam could barely get his portal working the entire series it seemed.

Kinda nitpicky but eh. Enjoyed the series anyways, it's one of the best time travel series out and definitely knocked Lost down a peg lol

Evil Trout
Nov 15, 2004

Despite rumors to the contrary, I do not love cocks.

the_enduser posted:

Kinda nitpicky but eh. Enjoyed the series anyways, it's one of the best time travel series out and definitely knocked Lost down a peg lol

It was a bootstrap paradox like the other suitcase time machine. It always existed, they just keep passing it back and forth through time and worlds.

the_enduser
May 1, 2006

[CENSORED]
(Content Violation)



Evil Trout posted:

It was a bootstrap paradox like the other suitcase time machine. It always existed, they just keep passing it back and forth through time and worlds.

Yeah I got that but I would have like some scene with like Tannhauser or something.

It just seemed way too convenient that Martha's side could jump across world's but Adam didn't really seem to even know or care about another world until this season. At least the first and second season had Tannhauser working on the Jonas side's machine a bit, even though it was a paradox too.

blue squares
Sep 28, 2007


Soiled Meat

the_enduser posted:

Yeah I got that but I would have like some scene with like Tannhauser or something.

It just seemed way too convenient that Martha's side could jump across world's but Adam didn't really seem to even know or care about another world until this season. At least the first and second season had Tannhauser working on the Jonas side's machine a bit, even though it was a paradox too.

I think there was something where there were not just two timelines but two realities. In one reality, which repeated endlessly, Martha died and Jonas hid in the basement and became Adam. In another reality, Martha died and Jonas gets rescued by other-Martha and then does not become Adam.

But it still doesn't make any sense within their rules that this one time in an endlessly repeating cycle, Jonas and Martha were able to do something differently. I don't think the show kept to their rules.

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


blue squares posted:

I think there was something where there were not just two timelines but two realities. In one reality, which repeated endlessly, Martha died and Jonas hid in the basement and became Adam. In another reality, Martha died and Jonas gets rescued by other-Martha and then does not become Adam.

That's mostly how I read it except I thought I could work out a way where it's one giant loop through both realities. So far I haven't been able to, but I was thinking that somehow Adam kills Martha, altMartha arrives, pulls Jonas out, altMartha kills Jonas and becomes Eva, which causes Eva to do poo poo that makes her NOT pull Jonas out on the second go around, which leads to Adam, who kills Martha. So you end up with each named character living simultaneous loops where each causes the other's existence and deaths but only in the sense that Adam 1 causes Adam 2, who causes Eva 1 who causes Eva 2, who causes Adam 1 etc etc. I couldn't make that work out yet though.

Either way, I think they do obey their rules right up until the last episode.

Ravenfood fucked around with this message at 17:27 on Jul 3, 2020

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

blue squares posted:

I think there was something where there were not just two timelines but two realities. In one reality, which repeated endlessly, Martha died and Jonas hid in the basement and became Adam. In another reality, Martha died and Jonas gets rescued by other-Martha and then does not become Adam.

But it still doesn't make any sense within their rules that this one time in an endlessly repeating cycle, Jonas and Martha were able to do something differently. I don't think the show kept to their rules.


There were three realities, not two (not counting the origin world). Eva's, Adams, and the one created by Claudia allowing her to talk to Adam at the end. The apocalypse allowed Eva to create the initial two realities and when Claudia realised that she used it to create a third.

Whether that is what "always" happened or just what happened once isn't clear. I'm not sure that matters within the rules of the show as what "really" happened is a collapsing paradox anyway.

LabyaMynora
Jun 18, 2000

I am a ghost


Grimey Drawer

Bonk posted:

I would've liked some closure with certain characters, Ulrich in particular,

In world 1, Ulrich dies an old man in an insane asylum waiting for Katherina to rescue him, but she never comes, because she was killed by her mother at the lake. In world 2, Ulrich is killed in the bunker by old Helge. In the prime or "real" world, Ulrich doesn't exist, because his mother grandmother, Agnes Nielsen, was Bartosz's daughter with Silje.

It's nuts how S1, the big reveal was that Jonas was a paradox because he was the son of Mikkel Nielsen after traveling back in time to 1987. Then S2 shows us that Charlotte Doppler is a paradox because Charlotte is Elizabeth's mother, and Elizabeth is Charlotte's mother, and therefore, Francesca is a paradox, too. Then S3 says, "Oh and by the way, Ulrich and all his kids, Magnus, Martha, and Mikkel, are paradoxes as well."

LabyaMynora fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 3, 2020

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Swaegsthetics
Jul 7, 2013


LabyaMynora posted:

In world 1, Ulrich dies an old man in an insane asylum waiting for Katherina to rescue him, but she never comes, because she was killed by her mother at the lake. In world 2, Ulrich is killed in the bunker by old Helge. In the prime or "real" world, Ulrich doesn't exist, because his mother grandmother, Agnes Nielsen, was Bartosz's daughter with Silje.

It's nuts how S1, the big reveal was that Jonas was a paradox because he was the son of Mikkel Nielsen after traveling back in time to 1987. Then S2 shows us that Charlotte Doppler is a paradox because Charlotte is Elizabeth's mother, and Elizabeth is Charlotte's mother, and therefore, Francesca is a paradox, too. Then S3 says, "Oh and by the way, Ulrich and all his kids, Magnus, Martha, and Mikkel, are paradoxes as well."


In real life all of humanity is such a paradox being seeded by the panspermia of some sort of preserved or reconstructed organic material from the future. Shows like this are just "signs" or teases built in to the timeline by outside influences with knowledge and some sort of desire maybe to dazzle us small beings or enlighten, who the gently caress cares.

End of the day you are just another Ulrich etc going about blind

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