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Chef Boyardeez Nuts
Sep 9, 2011

I rescued a pup on Thanksgiving instead of chowing down,
earning me this avatar.


In retrospect, I'm confused about the Martha that gets time-fridged by Adam. I thought Alt-Martha only shows up in the back half of the loop where she pops up after Martha-prime dies.

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muscles like this!
Jan 17, 2005



Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:

In retrospect, I'm confused about the Martha that gets time-fridged by Adam. I thought Alt-Martha only shows up in the back half of the loop where she pops up after Martha-prime dies.

There is one Martha up to the moment she goes to rescue Jonas, which means that him meeting past her and them having sex happened to both. Then when the split happens the Martha who rescues Jonas teams up with Adam and gets murdered while the one who doesn't gets the face scar, kills Jonas and becomes Eva.

Bonk
Aug 4, 2002

Douche Baggins

LabyaMynora posted:

In world 1, Ulrich dies an old man in an insane asylum waiting for Katherina to rescue him, but she never comes, because she was killed by her mother at the lake. In world 2, Ulrich is killed in the bunker by old Helge. In the prime or "real" world, Ulrich doesn't exist, because his mother grandmother, Agnes Nielsen, was Bartosz's daughter with Silje.

Oh yeah, I got that, I just mean that the last we see of him (that version) is waiting in a hallway, and then that's it. It's a really tightly woven show, and obviously it's rendered moot with the ending, but I did feel like some characters they had invested in were either dropped or just didn't get a wrap-up.

Did they ever explain why Ines was estranged from the family and cut out of the picture? I assume they eventually found out she was dosing Mikkel, but they never really circled back to that either.

Zazz Razzamatazz
Apr 19, 2016

No hunks allowed, ya dangus

The only thing I didn't get was how The Unknown could have a kid with Agnes in both universes...

Like I can get there there were two Ulrich's, so therefore they both had kids in both worlds- but there was only one Unknown right? So he had to have a kid with Agnes in EveWorld, then have another kid (er, the same kid) with the Agnes in AdamWorld...

If he'd abandoned Tronte when he was a baby, I could accept that more, but Tronte seemed to indicate he'd been burned/abused by his dad...

Was that another stepdad that abused him and Agnes, or did Agnes do the abuse? I'm trying to remember if Tronte was very affectionate towards her or cold.

Also: wasn't Bartosz also a paradox kid?

Anonymous Zebra
Oct 21, 2005
Blending in like it ain't no thang

Tronte said he lived in an orphanage as both his parents had abandoned him when he was younger. That's where he got the burn marks.

LabyaMynora
Jun 18, 2000

I am a ghost


Grimey Drawer

Zazz Razzamatazz posted:


Also: wasn't Bartosz also a paradox kid?


Not in the same way. Regina and Alexander/Boris met only because Ulrich and Katherina tormented Regina and tied her to a tree, where Alexander/Boris found her. Without Ulrich, they never meet. Fuckin' trippy.

As for The Unknown, I have no idea how that works, but I think somehow he/they exist in both continuums? He/they are the bridge between worlds.

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

The origin can travel between worlds using the spherical device or dark matter device in Eva's lair. He alternately travels to each universe and father's Tronte with the two respective Agnes's. So there are two Agnes's, two Tronte's, but only one origin.

Scoss
Aug 17, 2015


I enjoyed watching it all, but season 3 didn't feel as tight as 1 and 2, and I did not super love how "magical" things got at the very end.

Was there never a scene that explained why Adam is the only one who suffered disfiguration from time travel? I was expecting some kind of late reveal of a time where he had to repeatedly travel in order to accomplish or find or fix something. Seems like it just ended up being a convenient way to hide his identity.

Scoss fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jul 4, 2020

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Scoss posted:

In enjoyed watching it all, but season 3 didn't feel as tight as 1 and 2, and I did not super love how "magical" things got at the very end.

Was there never a scene that explained why Adam is the only one who suffered disfiguration from time travel? I was expecting some kind of late reveal of a time where he had to repeatedly travel in order to accomplish or find or fix something. Seems like it just ended up being a convenient way to hide his identity.

Yes, that is a bit of a problem, particularly as the period in which it happens is not one where he is shown to be regularly travelling.

The bigger issue I have is how he's managed to persuade everyone to get on board with his plan. In particular I can't imagine how he persuaded Charlotte and Elizabeth to go back and kidnap young Charlotte. Not only do they have to inflict this misery on themselves, but they do so in order to bring about a situation where Adam can kill a pregnant teenager to help end their world. We've not seen much of older Elizabeth but nothing we've seen of Charlotte indicates she'd be on board with that.

RevKrule
Jul 9, 2001

Thrilling the forums since 2001

Scoss posted:

In enjoyed watching it all, but season 3 didn't feel as tight as 1 and 2, and I did not super love how "magical" things got at the very end.

Was there never a scene that explained why Adam is the only one who suffered disfiguration from time travel? I was expecting some kind of late reveal of a time where he had to repeatedly travel in order to accomplish or find or fix something. Seems like it just ended up being a convenient way to hide his identity.

Regarding Adam's disfiguration, I took the scene of Jonas getting the lash of electricity as the start of that. The understanding that it wasn't time travel that made him look the way he did but his trial and error building the machine for traveling that scarred him up and down. It's not as "obvious" as like Martha's face scar and could've used more scenes of him getting hosed up by the machine but I'm pretty sure that's what they were trying to do.

Swaegsthetics
Jul 7, 2013


I guess young Noah would have sold her on the sic mundus stuff since he seemed like a true believer

After he's gone and the portal is working, presumably Adam came and spoke with her offscreen. But I've always imagined what he offered her was more concrete -- that mom-aged charlotte would come through the portal in the future and they could then live out the rest of their time together. That seems like a decent reason to stay and guard it with the wilderness crew against interlopers who might screw around with the sequence of events

The kidnapping wouldn't be revealed until close to the time, and by then both Charlotte and Elizabeth understand their parentage, and there are many others who can testify to the impossibility of changing what already happened, including fransizka. Wouldn't you rather kidnap yourself and your daughter rather than some 2 unknowns who would necessarily be involved?

LabyaMynora
Jun 18, 2000

I am a ghost


Grimey Drawer

Scoss posted:

In enjoyed watching it all, but season 3 didn't feel as tight as 1 and 2, and I did not super love how "magical" things got at the very end.

Definitely feels like it could've used another season to let things breathe. Reminds me of the Syfy channel show, Continuum, which also had to rush out 2+ seasons of plot in a truncated final season... Good ideas, but the execution definitely felt a bit half-assed and rushed.

whowhatwhere
Mar 15, 2010


I'm only on s3e5 but man, does every episode need a montage? Like I get it, they've got a good music budget, but they've gone to this well way too many times.

Duzzy Funlop
Jan 13, 2010


We real cool. We
Left school. We

Lurk late. We
Strike straight. We

Sing sin. We
Thin gin. We

Jazz June. We
Die soon.


Something I forgot to mention that almost blew my brain at the end of season 3:

I was dead certain that Martha and Jonas materializing in the middle of the road in the rain was going to be what would cause Tannhaus' family to careen off the road and cause the whole series

Ravenfood
Nov 4, 2011


Duzzy Funlop posted:

Something I forgot to mention that almost blew my brain at the end of season 3:

I was dead certain that Martha and Jonas materializing in the middle of the road in the rain was going to be what would cause Tannhaus' family to careen off the road and cause the whole series

I was too, for that whole scene!

cryptoclastic
Jul 3, 2003

The Jesus


I just finished and I'm not sure what to think, honestly. This season seemed more confusing than the others. Just so much back and forth and backwards and forwards.

Just to clarify, so Noah killed Bartoz, his father, at the beginning of season 2?

I really like how they did manage to pretty much close up everything. All those questions that they created were answered.

LabyaMynora
Jun 18, 2000

I am a ghost


Grimey Drawer

whowhatwhere posted:

I'm only on s3e5 but man, does every episode need a montage? Like I get it, they've got a good music budget, but they've gone to this well way too many times.

Pretty sure that's been part of every episode going back to s1e1

OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

cryptoclastic posted:


Just to clarify, so Noah killed Bartoz, his father, at the beginning of season 2?


Yes. Adam is a bit of a fucker. I've seen some people say Noah didn't know Bartosz was his father. But that's not the case.. He was raised by him. Its just he's been brainwashed by Adam.

whowhatwhere
Mar 15, 2010


LabyaMynora posted:

Pretty sure that's been part of every episode going back to s1e1

It has, the rigid formula has just been annoying me more and more.

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009



Do they digital manipulate actors in this to look more similar or do they just have amazing casting? Some of them are really impressive

CeeJee
Dec 4, 2001


Oven Wrangler

Chalks posted:

Do they digital manipulate actors in this to look more similar or do they just have amazing casting? Some of them are really impressive

This season they had two father/son duos (Peter Doppler and the old/oldest creepy trio member), the rest was just very good casting with some identifying marks like scars.

Zazz Razzamatazz
Apr 19, 2016

No hunks allowed, ya dangus

The Hannah/young Hannah casting was especially good, she was the only one from the first 1980's episode who I knew who they were supposed to be right away.

And I honestly thought old Ulrich was just middle aged Ulrich in makeup. (But he wasn't, right?)

LabyaMynora
Jun 18, 2000

I am a ghost


Grimey Drawer

Zazz Razzamatazz posted:

And I honestly thought old Ulrich was just middle aged Ulrich in makeup. (But he wasn't, right?)

Same, and no, he wasn't.

Bonk
Aug 4, 2002

Douche Baggins

RevKrule posted:

Regarding Adam's disfiguration, I took the scene of Jonas getting the lash of electricity as the start of that. The understanding that it wasn't time travel that made him look the way he did but his trial and error building the machine for traveling that scarred him up and down. It's not as "obvious" as like Martha's face scar and could've used more scenes of him getting hosed up by the machine but I'm pretty sure that's what they were trying to do.

I had the same read on that. The burn on his arm looked pretty gnarly.

I wonder what the volume of deleted scenes is like for this show though. There are a few missing pieces that can be inferred, but aren't spelled out.

Sab Sabbington
Sep 18, 2016

In my restless dreams I see that town...

Flagstaff, Arizona


I'm on ep 5 of Season 3 and finally getting around to finishing the last season after taking a break for a bit, but after watching this last scene (however it ends up playing out) I needed to pop in and say: Jesus Christ Katharina deserved so much better than to have that happen trying to save loving ULRICH

resting mitch face
Apr 9, 2005

5) I hear you.

I'll never not be amazed at the casting on this show. I was impressed at the first season, but holy poo poo at season 2 & 3. Multiple generations of pretty much all the characters and they were so distinguishable. Eye placement, bone structure, everything... just incredible.

Most shows/movies that have a younger/older character, you normally have to suspend the disbelief but I am just amazed at how well Dark did this.

The show is amazing too. I really, really enjoyed this.

Justin Credible
Aug 27, 2003

happy cat

blue squares posted:

I think there was something where there were not just two timelines but two realities. In one reality, which repeated endlessly, Martha died and Jonas hid in the basement and became Adam. In another reality, Martha died and Jonas gets rescued by other-Martha and then does not become Adam.

But it still doesn't make any sense within their rules that this one time in an endlessly repeating cycle, Jonas and Martha were able to do something differently. I don't think the show kept to their rules.


The way they explain it and it's really just a moment you have to take it in, is that the Mobius strip of looping time that they are in, one edge of the line is one reality divergence, the other side of the line is the 'main' continuity, both part of the same line of time.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


IF I'M TALKING ABOUT ART, I'M PROBABLY WRONG, SO PLEASE REPORT ME SO I CAN BE PROBATED. AGAIN.




Iím so goddamn mad they teased us with revealing how the cop lost his eye but then didnít

Bonk
Aug 4, 2002

Douche Baggins

Justin Credible posted:

The way they explain it and it's really just a moment you have to take it in, is that the Mobius strip of looping time that they are in, one edge of the line is one reality divergence, the other side of the line is the 'main' continuity, both part of the same line of time.
I think this is understated in a lot of the discussion I've seen about how the show's rules work. It's not just two alternate universes with people crossing between them and changing things. It's two timelines that inevitably caused each other to exist. You could still consider the whole thing one big causal loop, with half being one, and the other half being the other, but it makes more sense (both thematically and visually) to depict it as an infinity symbol, or two loops with a divergence in the middle. It's complex as hell, but surprisingly consistent.

If you start with Jonas like the show does, his path eventually creates a universe where he doesn't exist. But in the universe he creates as a result, Martha's path then creates a universe where Jonas does exist, and so on. You could theoretically start from any other point, but the apocalypse is the one point where the loops diverge because Alt-Bartosz intervenes. If you were able to objectively follow the chain of events in a linear fashion, you'd experience both sequences of events alternating and infinitely (until Claudia breaks the cycle).

In that way, the sphere is still another time travel device, just like the box is. But while the box is only ever used to travel between points in Adam's timeline, the sphere travels within both halves of the entire cycle. It's just a higher tech and further reaching version, like how time travel went from warehouse-sized to bunker-sized to suitcase-sized, and now hand-sized.

Bonk fucked around with this message at 01:26 on Jul 7, 2020

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


IF I'M TALKING ABOUT ART, I'M PROBABLY WRONG, SO PLEASE REPORT ME SO I CAN BE PROBATED. AGAIN.




I'm impressed they didn't go with a "starting everything back at the very beginning" ending because all signs were pointing to that until the last scene even. I think they could have told the same story in 2 seasons instead of 3, but overall very solid show and the casting and acting were both spectacular.

Normy
Jul 1, 2004

Do I Krushchev?



Any idea how many days pass for Jonas between Mikkel's suicide and Jonas and Martha travelling to the origin world? With him being filthy for the bulk of it, it seems like just a few days elapse for that Jonas.

Der Shovel
Dec 26, 2003

Pause post!


blue squares posted:

Some thoughts

Overall, I think the show took a big step backward by diving headfirst into being mysterious for its own sake and lost some of what made it great, which was the character-focused stuff. The entire 3rd world plotline was frustrating and unsatisfying. I wanted to see the characters from S1 & S2 figure out what they needed to do, not see several brand new characters be introduced for the final bit.


Agreed.

The first season was the strongest, because the mysteries were fairly simple, or more accurately compact and discrete. The focus was on the characters and their relationships. This especially was lost as the show went on, as they kept introducing alternate versions of characters to the point where nobody really seemed to matter anymore. In the third season when characters start dying, it doesn't feel like anything (except maybe confusing). Which version of this character was this again? How come Jonas can't kill himself, but Martha was easily able to kill ... SOME ... version of Jonas without it affecting anything?

They also seemed to use some ideas a bit too much. In the first season when it was revealed that Mikkel was Jonas' father it was a HUGE thing. But then over time it turned out that half the characters were either their own parents or grandparents.

The very final episode was still good, and the ending was satisfying, but especially S3E7 felt almost comically rushed. It's like they squeezed an season's worth of ideas into one episode and just made a loving mess where we got these huge supposedly earth-shaking moments as two minute vignettes, and then we're off somewhere else to see something entirely different.

Bottom Liner
Feb 15, 2006


IF I'M TALKING ABOUT ART, I'M PROBABLY WRONG, SO PLEASE REPORT ME SO I CAN BE PROBATED. AGAIN.




Question/big observation: at the very end after Jonas and Martha see the kid versions of themselves through the closet/doorway, she says ďthat was you in the closetĒ implying that had already happened before (them traveling to the origin world and source of the knot), so how do we know they actually severed anything and the fading isnít just the end of the loop/start of the next one?

Neurosis
Jun 10, 2003


Fallen Rib

Finished it. Felt like the show creators had more to do but got a wrap-up order. A couple of things that were obviously dangling: Bartosz/Jonas antagonism; Boris/Aleksander. Sad the latter didn't get more attention and from the perspective of giving a happy ending maybe tied up in a way that would allow Boris and Regina to get together - throughout the series they were one of the very few romantic relationships between likable characters that was completely stable and, until Regina's illness, happy. I guess Boris still exists in the origin universe but there was never any reason for him to come in contact with Regina in the same way, what with the absence of Ulrich and an event in 1986 that needed covering up - hell, the power plant won't exist because there's no cleft lip guy to threaten that official to give the licence. Which is, in some ways, worse than if he just didn't exist.

Didn't like how it seemed that the show was breaking its own rules. My guess was that the only timeline that would be stable would be one where time travel never happened - might've been neat if they'd hinted there were shitloads of timelines, many of them created by events that had nothing to do with the characters or place we see in DarK, created throughout histotry, but any timeline with travel would inevitably be unstable in some way, leaving the timeline without travel as the only viable one
.

Neurosis fucked around with this message at 09:45 on Jul 8, 2020

Chalks
Sep 30, 2009



Der Shovel posted:

How come Jonas can't kill himself, but Martha was easily able to kill ... SOME ... version of Jonas without it affecting anything?

I think the version of Jonas that would eventually become Adam could not be killed because he was so fundamental to the reality of the loop, but once characters start getting duplicated the duplicates can be killed. Ultimately I don't think Jonas was killed because him being dead was important but rather Martha killing him was important to her arc to becoming Eva and therefore must be repeated.

It's all super confusing branching time travel stuff though so it's probably difficult to make complete sense.

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OrthoTrot
Dec 10, 2006
Its either Trotsky or its Notsky

Bottom Liner posted:

I'm impressed they didn't go with a "starting everything back at the very beginning" ending because all signs were pointing to that until the last scene even. I think they could have told the same story in 2 seasons instead of 3, but overall very solid show and the casting and acting were both spectacular.

I think in some senses they did. It starts with Michael's suicide and ends with Jonas and Martha's.

In both cases we find out the characters are choosing to not exist for the sake of others. To be honest I think there's a lot in there that's a bit depressing about suicide in general.

Someone else pointed out earlier Biblically the moment when Adam and Eve gain true knowledge of the world and their position in it, and thus have to leave paradise, is not generally considered to be a positive one.

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