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So I finally finished season 2 (just in time!) and had a small question in case I missed something. Is Elizabeth Charlotte's adopted daughter or biological, because if it's the latter I have a couple of concerns, haha.
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Jun 12, 2020 09:09
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| # ¿ Apr 20, 2024 03:37 |
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Chadzok posted:It's a paradox. They are both mother and daughter. I'm aware of that. I'm 100% okay with the looping series of events with no origin (Jonas gave himself the directions to the cave passage which Jonas never would have found if Jonas hadn't given himself the directions to the cave passage). My brain was able hand-wave away a nuclear power plant somehow accidentally creating Dark Matter/Higgs Boson/Whatever the gently caress, but my biological knowledge cannot figure out how Charlotte giving birth to her own mother would work genetics-wise.
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Jun 12, 2020 09:33
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Ravenfood posted:Seems fairly simple to me. Yes yes. Like I said, I understand the mechanics of how it happened time-line wise, it's just the genetics that is hurting my brain. All the other loops my brain can deal with because they basically don't have any distinct iterations. There is one loop that has no clear beginning where causes lead to a series of consequences that themselves are the triggers for the causes that lead to the consequences. Real simple. Younger versions to Jonas seem to believe that THIS TIME when they go through the loop they'll change things while failing to understand that there is no THIS TIME, there's only one time and no way to change that (Adam seems to get this). BUT for Charlotte/Elizabeth genetic information is passed from one to the other, which gets really messy since essentially you have a giant ball of inbreeding which should lead to all kinds of problems. I'm having trouble explaining this, but lets take a step back and follow just Jonas, older Jonas, and Adam. Each remembers past conversations they had with their elder versions and chooses to repeat those conversations when they speak to their younger versions. Nothing is changing, the information they are passing to their younger self only pushes their younger selves to carry out what the elder already knows happens. BUT genes passed from mother to daughter WILL change things if those genes are going to travel through time and pass back to the mom again. Elizabeth basically has half her DNA from her dad and half from her mom. Elizabeth's daughter (Charlotte) will thus have half her DNA from Noah and half from her mom, which will be half of Charlotte's own DNA and half from Elizabeth's dad. Okay, so now Charlotte has 1/4 of the DNA of the man that will become her husband (because he is also her grandfather!), she has Elizabeth who now has 3/4 of the DNA of her father (half from her father, 25% from Charlotte). Now Elizabeth has Charlotte and Charlotte has the DNA of......Do you see where I'm going here?
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Jun 12, 2020 10:17
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AKA Pseudonym posted:All biological mechanics work out the way every time so the same genes are going through the same loop every time. It just means that Elizabeth shares 75% of her DNA with Noah, which probably shouldn't really work out too well for her, but I guess she lucked out. I think it works but my brain isn't good at recursion, so I could be easily missing something. (I just want to preface this by saying that I LOVE this show, and that I'm just trying to explain why this particular paradox is breaking my brain more than the others) So I finally thought about a way to describe why I'm having a problem with the mother/daughter thing. I want you to think of Michael's letter to Jonas. Michael writes the letter the day he hangs himself. It ends up with Ines, who then gives it to a young Jonas. Young Jonas holds on to the letter, but at one point shows it to Michael the day before he hangs himself. Eventually an older version of Jonas (The Stranger) gives the letter to an even younger version of Jonas who burns the letter. The letter moves through time and inspires it's own creation, but the life of the letter is ultimately linear. It has a point at which it was written, it exists and then eventually is destroyed. It goes through the loop only once. The same is true of the cave map (made by young Mikkel, found by young Jonas, altered by The Stranger, kept by Jonas until it is stolen by Katharina). Okay, so now that I have you thinking about the movement of objects through time in the show, and have shown that objects have clear beginnings and endings, which while they may inspire their own creation (the letter, the time machine), do not themselves ever pass back through the same story twice. Now imagine the chromosomes in Charlotte and Elizabeth. Those are objects....but they have no clear beginning or ending. If you sit on one of those chromosomes and ride along with it you will find yourself moving from Charlotte to Elizabeth to Charlotte to Elizabeth to Charlotte.....forever. There is not clear place they came from nor is their an endpoint to their story. In fact, there are NO Charlotte or Elizabeth genes at all. They are entirely the genes of Noah and Peter Dopppler, except every iteration even more copies of those two men's chromosomes are added to the mix. An analog to this would be if Jonas gave his father the letter, which Michael then never wrote but simply left behind for Jonas to find. The letter would be moving continuously through time getting older and older and it wouldn't make any sense.
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Jun 14, 2020 06:13
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AKA Pseudonym posted:I worked this out on paper because that's what I do on pleasant Sunday afternoons apparently. Okay, thanks for writing it all out like that. Yes, that does make sense the way you laid it out. And yes, you are correct that actual genes are not making the journey, just information which fits within the dynamic of objects inspiring their own creation. Great! Now I can go back to enjoying this show 100% instead of 99.9%.
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Jun 15, 2020 08:40
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I read that differently, but if she did that's amazing and I love her even more. I hope she shows up elderly in 1986 unannounced and beats the poo poo out of 80s Ulrich. Yes, she absolutely went back to the 1950's just to gently caress with Ulrich. She already despised him by that point and was gunning to ruin him, and realized that she couldn't do so in 2020. One of the best things about this show is how they are able to have essentially the same story beats each season without it being predictable. Making us forget how vile she was only to remind us near the very end was pretty good. Maybe in Season 3 we'll remember we're not supposed to trust what an older Jonas says this time!
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Jun 19, 2020 08:42
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Chef Boyardeez Nuts posted:I'm still holding out hope that the swerve is that Adam is the other character we know to have been hanged. Nah. A theme of the show is that Jonas is being manipulated by older versions of himself. Also, Adam knows way too many personal details about Jonas and his adventures to be anyone but him. No one else would also hold onto that necklace he found on the beach with Marta. Sic Mundus only makes sense if it's the three original teenagers we see traveling at the end of season 2 led by a much older Jonas.
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Jun 19, 2020 17:39
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Ravenfood posted:Adult Bartosz is notably missing from the show so far. I went back and watched that scene. That absolutely is Bart, it looks just like him. It's also symmetrical with old Noah training Bart knowing that he killed him when he was younger.
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Jun 19, 2020 17:57
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Oh god, that theory both makes a lot of sense and is also going to break my goddamn brain if it comes true.
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Jun 22, 2020 01:50
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Tronte said he lived in an orphanage as both his parents had abandoned him when he was younger. That's where he got the burn marks.
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Jul 4, 2020 00:08
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| # ¿ Apr 20, 2024 03:37 |
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He was coming clean. Unlike the original Alexander, he prevented himself from being blackmailed by simply confessing to his crimes so that nothing could be held over him.
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Aug 20, 2020 01:41
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