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hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

I think what gets me most about the imprinting (besides the pedophilia, good god) is that the women seem to have no say in it and Meyer's okay with that. She just kind of handwaves it away like "oh, you can't help but fall in love with someone who loves you so much." It doesn't matter if you're attracted to his personality, have similar goals in life, have shared interests or friends, actually enjoy being around him...nope, it's meant to be.

Like, if my husband was the sweetest, most adoring person to me and treated everyone else in my life like poo poo, no amount of love could make me stay in that relationship. But according to these books, it's fine if your soulmate's an rear end in a top hat because he looooves you.

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chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



And it’s directly based on a Mormon belief, which encourages permanent relationships between incompatible and/or abusive people.

Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



hyperhazard posted:

I think what gets me most about the imprinting (besides the pedophilia, good god) is that the women seem to have no say in it and Meyer's okay with that. She just kind of handwaves it away like "oh, you can't help but fall in love with someone who loves you so much." It doesn't matter if you're attracted to his personality, have similar goals in life, have shared interests or friends, actually enjoy being around him...nope, it's meant to be.

Like, if my husband was the sweetest, most adoring person to me and treated everyone else in my life like poo poo, no amount of love could make me stay in that relationship. But according to these books, it's fine if your soulmate's an rear end in a top hat because he looooves you.

Mormons.txt

It's one of their fundamental beliefs about human relationships: that you had a family in heaven before you were even born, and need to find that family once you are born so you can be together forever in this life and the next. To do otherwise - to be gay or asexual or want a divorce or whatever - is to defy God's will.

Cythereal fucked around with this message at 23:05 on May 7, 2020

SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL
Feb 21, 2006

Holy Moly! DARKSEID IS!


Also don’t worry if you don’t get married in life, you’ll be assigned a husband in Heaven!

Grammarchist
Jan 28, 2013



It sure would have been interesting if Rachel had rejected imprinting, even though Meyer probably would have stuck in a message about education driving women away from Werewolf God's plan.

Lord Zedd-Repulsa
Jul 21, 2007

Devour a good book.



I'm equally upset by the casual homophobia Jacob tosses out there like it's not hurtful. At least that part already seems dated from talking to people currently 16-18.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Lord Zedd-Repulsa posted:

I'm equally upset by the casual homophobia Jacob tosses out there like it's not hurtful. At least that part already seems dated from talking to people currently 16-18.
Was it homophobia or transphobia?

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



PetraCore posted:

Was it homophobia or transphobia?

If you mean the part where Jacob mocks the idea of Quil wearing pretty princess makeup, it's probably a sort of combination of the two that was common among teenagers 15 years ago. Even a kid who was ostensibly trying to be respectful of gay or trans people would still mock someone who seems emasculated if they felt a need to rib someone, or hurt them if it was an insult instead of friendly teasing. I'm sure it's still common today, but it wasn't exactly insidious bigotry amongst them unless they had something else predisposing them to violence.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

It’s also “you looked like a clown because you had a mob of three year old girls putting makeup on you.” I’ve been a good sport at young relatives’ parties and there were similar comments afterwards. No phobia about it, I looked ridiculous.

I’m not going to post the pictures.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



My ex put makeup on me for a test and it was not good. But I later did that Facebook "What would you look like as the opposite sex?" thing and found that I would have been one of the hottest girls I've ever seen.

SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL
Feb 21, 2006

Holy Moly! DARKSEID IS!


Meyer attempted to write Jacob’s chapter like a typical teenage boy (because Bella is soooooooo not typical) and fails at it quite a bit. I figure she’s drawing on growing up with brothers because I believe her kids were too young at the time, but from an editing standpoint the word choice alone is just...not accurate for a 16 year old werewolf shapeshifter in the late 00’s/early 10’s.

Shwoo
Jul 21, 2011


I wonder if they're going to tell that girl that weird devoted family friend is going to be her husband, if they're going to just let that be a surprise. Jacob's "fourteen years of monkitude" line implies that he believes they're going to start dating as soon she turns seventeen

But it's okay, because they're soulmates, so this is definitely what's best for her.

PetraCore
Jul 20, 2017





Shwoo posted:

I wonder if they're going to tell that girl that weird devoted family friend is going to be her husband, if they're going to just let that be a surprise. Jacob's "fourteen years of monkitude" line implies that he believes they're going to start dating as soon she turns seventeen

But it's okay, because they're soulmates, so this is definitely what's best for her.
It sure is a good thing nobody is ever gay in Twilight!

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



quote:

I took off running, not for the dirt path through the weedy hedge, but in the shortest line toward the forest. I hurdled the first line of driftwood and then ripped my way through the briars, still running. I felt the little tears as the thorns cut into my skin, but I ignored them. Their sting would be healed before I made the trees.

I cut behind the store and darted across the highway. Somebody honked at me. Once in the safety of the trees, I ran faster, taking longer strides. People would stare if I was out in the open. Normal people couldn’t run like this. Sometimes I thought it might be fun to enter a race—you know, like the Olympic trials or something. It would be cool to watch the expressions on those star athletes’ faces when I blew by them. Only I was pretty sure the testing they did to make sure you weren’t on steroids would probably turn up some really freaky crap in my blood.

"Sir, our genetic tests indicate that you're a dog."

quote:

As soon as I was in the true forest, unbound by roads or houses, I skidded to a stop and kicked my shorts off. With quick, practiced moves, I rolled them up and tied them to the leather cord around my ankle. As I was still pulling the ends tight, I started shifting. The fire trembled down my spine, throwing tight spasms out along my arms and legs. It only took a second. The heat flooded through me, and I felt the silent shimmer that made me something else. I threw my heavy paws against the matted earth and stretched my back in one long, rolling extension.

Phasing was very easy when I was centered like this. I didn’t have issues with my temper anymore. Except when it got in the way.

"It's not a problem if it doesn't hurt someone!"

quote:

For one half second, I remembered the awful moment at that unspeakable joke of a wedding. I’d been so insane with fury that I couldn’t make my body work right. I’d been trapped, shaking and burning, unable to make the change and kill the monster just a few feet away from me. It had been so confusing. Dying to kill him. Afraid to hurt her. My friends in the way. And then, when I was finally able to take the form I wanted, the order from my leader. The edict from the Alpha. If it had been just Embry and Quil there that night without Sam… would I have been able to kill the murderer, then?

I hated it when Sam laid down the law like that. I hated the feeling of having no choice. Of having to obey.

Of not being allowed to kill with impunity in public.

quote:

And then I was conscious of an audience. I was not alone in my thoughts.

So self-absorbed all the time, Leah thought.

Yeah, no hypocrisy there, Leah, I thought back.

Can it, guys, Sam told us.

We fell silent, and I felt Leah’s wince at the word guys. Touchy, like always.

Please gently caress off.

quote:

Sam pretended not to notice. Where’s Quil and Jared?

Quil’s got Claire. He’s taking her to the Clearwaters’.

Good. Sue will take her.


Jared was going to Kim’s, Embry thought. Good chance he didn’t hear you.

There was a low grumble through the pack. I moaned along with them. When Jared finally showed up, no doubt he’d still be thinking about Kim. And nobody wanted a replay of what they were up to right now.

They watch each other bone

quote:

Sam sat back on his haunches and let another howl rip into the air. It was a signal and an order in one.

The pack was gathered a few miles east of where I was. I loped through the thick forest toward them. Leah, Embry, and Paul all were working in toward them, too. Leah was close—soon I could hear her footfalls not far into the woods. We continued in a parallel line, choosing not to run together.

Well, we’re not waiting all day for him. He’ll just have to catch up later.

’Sup, boss? Paul wanted to know.

We need to talk. Something’s happened.

I felt Sam’s thoughts flicker to me—and not just Sam’s, but Seth’s and Collin’s and Brady’s as well. Collin and Brady—the new kids—had been running patrol with Sam today, so they would know whatever he knew. I didn’t know why Seth was already out here, and in the know. It wasn’t his turn.

Seth, tell them what you heard.

I sped up, wanting to be there. I heard Leah move faster, too. She hated being outrun. Being the fastest was the only edge she claimed.

Now I see why that blog had a count for every time Leah gets poo poo on for no reason.

quote:

Claim this, moron, she hissed, and then she really kicked it into gear. I dug my nails into the loam and shot myself forward.

Sam didn’t seem in the mood to put up with our usual crap. Jake, Leah, give it a rest.

Neither of us slowed.

Sam growled, but let it go. Seth?

Charlie called around till he found Billy at my house.

Yeah, I talked to him, Paul added.

"He told me never to set foot in his neighborhood again or I'd be arrested."

quote:

I felt a jolt go through me as Seth thought Charlie’s name. This was it. The waiting was over. I ran faster, forcing myself to breathe, though my lungs felt kinda stiff all of a sudden.

Which story would it be?

So he’s all flipped out. Guess Edward and Bella got home last week, and…

My chest eased up. She was alive. Or she wasn’t dead dead, at least.

I hadn’t realized how much difference it would make to me. I’d been thinking of her as dead this whole time, and I only saw that now. I saw that I’d never believed that he would bring her back alive. It shouldn’t matter, because I knew what was coming next.

Yeah, bro, and here’s the bad news. Charlie talked to her, said she sounded bad. She told him she’s sick. Carlisle got on and told Charlie that Bella picked up some rare disease in South America. Said she’s quarantined. Charlie’s going crazy, ’cause even he’s not allowed to see her. He says he doesn’t care if he gets sick, but Carlisle wouldn’t bend. No visitors. Told Charlie it was pretty serious, but that he’s doing everything he can. Charlie’s been stewing about it for days, but he only called Billy now. He said she sounded worse today.

The mental silence when Seth finished was profound. We all understood.

I have video of all of this stuff, and I can't post it yet because despite being just over 6 minutes long it goes from Kaure to the next chapter. The filmmakers accurately determined how much padding the book has (as well as how creepy the beach scene with Quil was) and massively abbreviated the movie. Even still, it required two films to fully cover.

quote:

So she would die of this disease, as far as Charlie knew. Would they let him view the corpse? The pale, perfectly still, unbreathing white body? They couldn’t let him touch the cold skin—he might notice how hard it was. They’d have to wait until she could hold still, could keep from killing Charlie and the other mourners. How long would that take?

Would they bury her? Would she dig herself out, or would the bloodsuckers come for her?

The others listened to my speculating in silence. I’d put a lot more thought into this than any of them.

This will provide us with another opportunity to spot plot holes. When in wolf form, the wolves hear not only directed thoughts but the internal monologue. They effectively have the power to break the fourth wall and read the text. Will we see instances where Jacob thinks something and nobody notices because Meyer forgot about that?

quote:

Leah and I entered the clearing at nearly the same time. She was sure her nose led the way, though. She dropped onto her haunches beside her brother while I trotted forward to stand at Sam’s right hand. Paul circled and made room for me in my place.

Beatcha again, Leah thought, but I barely heard her.

I wondered why I was the only one on my feet. My fur stood up on my shoulders, bristling with impatience.

Well, what are we waiting for? I asked.

No one said anything, but I heard their feelings of hesitation.

Oh, come on! The treaty’s broken!

We have no proof—maybe she is sick.…

OH, PLEASE!

Okay, so the circumstantial evidence is pretty strong. Still… Jacob.
Sam’s thought came slow, hesitant. Are you sure this is what you want? Is it really the right thing? We all know what she wanted.

The treaty doesn’t mention anything about victim preferences, Sam!

Is she really a victim? Would you label her that way?

Yes!

Note that under the treaty, Jacob rushing forward the way he wants to will give the vampires carte blanche to slaughter them and potentially the rest of the Quileute. This is possibly the worst impulse he could be having right now.

quote:

Jake, Seth thought, they aren’t our enemies.

Shut up, kid! Just ’cause you’ve got some kind of sick hero worship thing going on with that bloodsucker, it doesn’t change the law. They are our enemies. They are in our territory. We take them out. I don’t care if you had fun fighting alongside Edward Cullen once upon a time.

It's still not adequately explained why Jacob shifted into this line of thinking so rapidly after phasing for the first time. Within days he had immediately absorbed the full weight of his role and gained an extreme aggression toward vampires and loyalty to a treaty that he never knew existed.

What would be way more interesting is if Meyer did have an explanation that got explored. Maybe the way everyone's thoughts and memories have been merging due to the hive mind confusion caused him to accidentally have his personality shifted to match the loyal enforcers and his thoughts are no longer truly his own.

quote:

So what are you going to do when Bella fights with them, Jacob? Huh? Seth demanded.

She’s not Bella anymore.

You gonna be the one to take her down?


I couldn’t stop myself from wincing.

No, you’re not. So, what? You gonna make one of us do it? And then hold a grudge against whoever it is forever?

I wouldn’t.…

Sure you won’t. You’re not ready for this fight, Jacob.


Instinct took over and I crouched forward, snarling at the gangly sand-colored wolf across the circle.

As we know, all native folks are emotional and ruled by primitive instinct.

quote:

Jacob! Sam cautioned. Seth, shut up for a second.

Seth nodded his big head.

Dang, what’d I miss? Quil thought. He was running for the gathering place full-out. Heard about Charlie’s call.…

"I thought he found out and was on his way to kill me!"

quote:

We’re getting ready to go, I told him. Why don’t you swing by Kim’s and drag Jared out with your teeth? We’re going to need everyone.

Come straight here, Quil, Sam ordered. We’ve decided nothing yet.

I growled.

Jacob, I have to think about what’s best for this pack. I have to choose the course that protects you all best. Times have changed since our ancestors made that treaty. I… well, I don’t honestly believe that the Cullens are a danger to us. And we know that they will not be here much longer. Surely once they’ve told their story, they will disappear. Our lives can return to normal.

I want you to remember this scene really closely as we go on, and who's on which side of this argument.

quote:

Normal?

If we challenge them, Jacob, they will defend themselves well.

Are you afraid?


Are you so ready to lose a brother? He paused. Or a sister? he tacked on as an afterthought.

I’m not afraid to die.

I know that, Jacob. It’s one reason I question your judgment on this.


I stared into his black eyes.

Do you intend to honor our fathers’ treaty or not?

"The treaty I literally never cared about until 7 months ago and that the pack leader thinks is outdated."

quote:

I honor my pack. I do what’s best for them.

Coward.


His muzzle tensed, pulling back over his teeth. Enough, Jacob. You’re overruled. Sam’s mental voice changed, took on that strange double timbre that we could not disobey. The voice of the Alpha. He met the gaze of every wolf in the circle.

So that's a confirmation, two books after the first time it gets vaguely hinted at, that Alphas have mind control powers over the rest of the pack.

quote:

The pack is not attacking the Cullens without provocation. The spirit of the treaty remains. They are not a danger to our people, nor are they a danger to the people of Forks. Bella Swan made an informed choice, and we are not going to punish our former allies for her choice.

Hear, hear,
Seth thought enthusiastically.

I thought I told you to shut it, Seth.

Oops. Sorry, Sam.

Jacob, where do you think you’re going?


I left the circle, moving toward the west so that I could turn my back on him. I’m going to tell my father goodbye. Apparently there was no purpose in me sticking around this long.

Aw, Jake—don’t do that again!

Shut up, Seth
, several voices thought together.

Why does everyone hate Seth so much? He's the most reasonable one here!

quote:

We don’t want you to leave, Sam told me, his thought softer than before.

So force me to stay, Sam. Take away my will. Make me a slave.

You know I won’t do that.

Then there’s nothing more to say.

There's a lot of bad implications about the Alpha powers here. Is there something in the selection process that makes sure it only grants the position to guys who won't misuse their mind control? I would be surprised, since the position seems to be genetic (Jacob was the Alpha by lineage but refused the position) unless the packs collectively select a new leader. You're basically relying on every Alpha being totally selfless and not, say, a crazy rapist or murderer.

quote:

I ran away from them, trying very hard not to think about what was next. Instead, I concentrated on my memories of the long wolf months, of letting the humanity bleed out of me until I was more animal than man. Living in the moment, eating when hungry, sleeping when tired, drinking when thirsty, and running—running just to run. Simple desires, simple answers to those desires. Pain came in easily managed forms. The pain of hunger. The pain of cold ice under your paws. The pain of cutting claws when dinner got feisty. Each pain had a simple answer, a clear action to end that pain.

Not like being human.

"Not like being white."

quote:

Yet, as soon as I was in jogging distance of my house, I shifted back into my human body. I needed to be able to think in privacy.

I untied my shorts and yanked them on, already running for the house.

I’d done it. I’d hidden what I was thinking and now it was too late for Sam to stop me. He couldn’t hear me now.

Sam had made a very clear ruling. The pack would not attack the Cullens. Okay.

He hadn’t mentioned an individual acting alone.

Nope, the pack wasn’t attacking anyone today.

But I was.

Grammarchist
Jan 28, 2013



I don't think I registered how fast the werewolves pop into existence fully formed. I wasn't picturing American Werewolf in London or anything, but for some reason "poof, giant dog" was not my mental image.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat


Grammarchist posted:

I don't think I registered how fast the werewolves pop into existence fully formed. I wasn't picturing American Werewolf in London or anything, but for some reason "poof, giant dog" was not my mental image.

If you’re going to disregard thermodynamics you might as well do it quickly.

biracial bear for uncut
Jun 9, 2009

ask me about being the most obnoxious person of all time

If vampires can sparkle in sunlight, werewolves can shapeshift with zero pain and no body horror transition.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Chapter 9: Sure As Hell Didn't See That One Coming

I guess Meyer has to differentiate Jacob as well by unusually long chapter titles.

quote:

I didn't really plan to say goodbye to my father.

After all, one quick call to Sam and the game would be up. They’d cut me off and push me back. Probably try to make me angry, or even hurt me—somehow force me to phase so that Sam could lay down a new law.

Are the wolf packs throughout history normally this unstable?

quote:

But Billy was expecting me, knowing I’d be in some kind of state. He was in the yard, just sitting there in his wheelchair with his eyes right on the spot where I came through the trees. I saw him judge my direction—headed straight past the house to my homemade garage.

“Got a minute, Jake?”

I skidded to a stop. I looked at him and then toward the garage.

“C’mon kid. At least help me inside.”

I gritted my teeth but decided that he’d be more likely to cause trouble with Sam if I didn’t lie to him for a few minutes.

“Since when do you need help, old man?”

He laughed his rumbling laugh. “My arms are tired. I pushed myself all the way here from Sue’s.”

“It’s downhill. You coasted the whole way.”

I rolled his chair up the little ramp I’d made for him and into the living room.

“Caught me. Think I got up to about thirty miles per hour. It was great.”



quote:

“You’re gonna wreck that chair, you know. And then you’ll be dragging yourself around by your elbows.”

“Not a chance. It’ll be your job to carry me.”

“You won’t be going many places.”

Billy put his hands on the wheels and steered himself to the fridge. “Any food left?”

“You got me. Paul was here all day, though, so probably not.”

Billy sighed. “Have to start hiding the groceries if we’re gonna avoid starvation.”

Does Paul ever get any redeeming features or is he just going to remain a violent jackass for the rest of canon?

quote:

“Tell Rachel to go stay at his place.”

Billy’s joking tone vanished, and his eyes got soft. “We’ve only had her home a few weeks. First time she’s been here in a long time. It’s hard—the girls were older than you when your mom passed. They have more trouble being in this house.”

“I know.”

Rebecca hadn’t been home once since she got married, though she did have a good excuse. Plane tickets from Hawaii were pretty pricey. Washington State was close enough that Rachel didn’t have the same defense. She’d taken classes straight through the summer semesters, working double shifts over the holidays at some café on campus. If it hadn’t been for Paul, she probably would have taken off again real quick. Maybe that was why Billy wouldn’t kick him out.

Neither Rebecca nor her husband, Solomon Finau, will appear.

quote:

“Well, I’m going to go work on some stuff.…” I started for the back door.

“Wait up, Jake. Aren’t you going to tell me what happened? Do I have to call Sam for an update?”

I stood with my back to him, hiding my face.

“Nothing happened. Sam’s giving them a bye. Guess we’re all just a bunch of leech lovers now.”

Most of those leeches are much nicer people than you.

quote:

“Jake…”

“I don’t want to talk about it.”

“Are you leaving, son?”

The room was quiet for a long time while I decided how to say it.

“Rachel can have her room back. I know she hates that air mattress.”

“She’d rather sleep on the floor than lose you. So would I.”

I snorted.

“Jacob, please. If you need… a break. Well, take it. But not so long again. Come back.”

“Maybe. Maybe my gig will be weddings. Make a cameo at Sam’s, then Rachel’s. Jared and Kim might come first, though. Probably ought to have a suit or something.”

Shows up to weddings just so he can hit on the bride and try to kill the groom.

quote:

“Jake, look at me.”

I turned around slowly. “What?”

He stared into my eyes for a long minute. “Where are you going?”

“I don’t really have a specific place in mind.”

He cocked his head to the side, and his eyes narrowed. “Don’t you?”

We stared each other down. The seconds ticked by.

“Jacob,” he said. His voice was strained. “Jacob, don’t. It’s not worth it.”

“I don’t know what you’re talking about.”

“Leave Bella and the Cullens be. Sam is right.”

I stared at him for a second, and then I crossed the room in two long strides. I grabbed the phone and disconnected the cable from the box and the jack. I wadded the gray cord up in the palm of my hand.

“Bye, Dad.”

And here we see our protagonist cutting off his disabled father's phone to keep him from stopping him breaking their treaty and getting murdered by a pack of vampires.

quote:

“Jake, wait—,” he called after me, but I was out the door, running.

The motorcycle wasn’t as fast as running, but it was more discreet. I wondered how long it would take Billy to wheel himself down to the store and then get someone on the phone who could get a message to Sam. I’d bet Sam was still in his wolf form. The problem would be if Paul came back to our place anytime soon. He could phase in a second and let Sam know what I was doing.…

I wasn’t going to worry about it. I would go as fast as I could, and if they caught me, I’d deal with that when I had to.

Deal with it...how? You're facing two groups that can effortlessly overpower you.

quote:

I kicked the bike to life and then I was racing down the muddy lane. I didn’t look behind me as I passed the house.

The highway was busy with tourist traffic; I wove in and out of the cars, earning a bunch of honks and a few fingers. I took the turn onto the 101 at seventy, not bothering to look. I had to ride the line for a minute to avoid getting smeared by a minivan. Not that it would have killed me, but it would have slowed me down. Broken bones—the big ones, at least—took days to heal completely, as I had good cause to know.

The freeway cleared up a little, and I pushed the bike to eighty. I didn’t touch the brake until I was close to the narrow drive; I figured I was in the clear then. Sam wouldn’t come this far to stop me. It was too late.

It wasn’t until that moment—when I was sure that I’d made it—that I started to think about what exactly I was going to do now. I slowed down to twenty, taking the twists through the trees more carefully than I needed to.

I knew they would hear me coming, bike or no bike, so surprise was out. There was no way to disguise my intentions. Edward would hear my plan as soon as I was close enough. Maybe he already could. But I thought this would still work out, because I had his ego on my side. He’d want to fight me alone.

Just his ego, right? Not yours?

quote:

So I’d just walk in, see Sam’s precious evidence for myself, and then challenge Edward to a duel.

I snorted. The parasite’d probably get a kick out of the theatrics of it.

When I finished with him, I’d take as many of the rest of them as I could before they got me. Huh—I wondered if Sam would consider my death provocation. Probably say I got what I deserved. Wouldn’t want to offend his bloodsucker BFFs.

That is exactly what Sam would say.

quote:

The drive opened up into the meadow, and the smell hit me like a rotten tomato to the face. Ugh. Reeking vampires. My stomach started churning. The stench would be hard to take this way—undiluted by the scent of humans as it had been the other time I’d come here—though not as bad as smelling it through my wolf nose.

I wasn’t sure what to expect, but there was no sign of life around the big white crypt. Of course they knew I was here.

I cut the engine and listened to the quiet. Now I could hear tense, angry murmurs from just the other side of the wide double doors. Someone was home. I heard my name and I smiled, happy to think I was causing them a little stress.

I took one big gulp of air—it would only be worse inside—and leaped up the porch stairs in one bound.

The door opened before my fist touched it, and the doctor stood in the frame, his eyes grave.

“Hello, Jacob,” he said, calmer than I would have expected. “How are you?”

Carlisle is very good at instantly deflating this guy's macho posturing.

quote:

I took a deep breath through my mouth. The reek pouring through the door was overpowering.

I was disappointed that it was Carlisle who answered. I’d rather Edward had come through the door, fangs out. Carlisle was so… just human or something. Maybe it was the house calls he made last spring when I got busted up. But it made me uncomfortable to look into his face and know that I was planning to kill him if I could.

“I heard Bella made it back alive,” I said.

“Er, Jacob, it’s not really the best time.” The doctor seemed uncomfortable, too, but not in the way I expected. “Could we do this later?”

I stared at him, dumbfounded. Was he asking to post-pone the death match for a more convenient time?

Make Carlisle the protagonist instead.

quote:

And then I heard Bella’s voice, cracked and rough, and I couldn’t think about anything else.

“Why not?” she asked someone. “Are we keeping secrets from Jacob, too? What’s the point?”

Her voice was not what I was expecting. I tried to remember the voices of the young vampires we’d fought in the spring, but all I’d registered was snarling. Maybe those newborns hadn’t had the piercing, ringing sound of the older ones, either. Maybe all new vampires sounded hoarse.

“Come in, please, Jacob,” Bella croaked more loudly.

Carlisle’s eyes tightened.

I wondered if Bella was thirsty. My eyes narrowed, too.

I would love a twist where Bella is actually a newborn vampire and they're letting her eat Jacob.

quote:

“Excuse me,” I said to the doctor as I stepped around him. It was hard—it went against all my instincts to turn my back to one of them. Not impossible, though. If there was such a thing as a safe vampire, it was the strangely gentle leader.

I would stay away from Carlisle when the fight started. There were enough of them to kill without including him.

"Should I maybe reconsider my belief that all vampires are murderous monsters?"

"No. It's the vampires who are wrong."

quote:

I sidestepped into the house, keeping my back to the wall. My eyes swept the room—it was unfamiliar. The last time I’d been in here it had been all done up for a party. Everything was bright and pale now. Including the six vampires standing in a group by the white sofa.

They were all here, all together, but that was not what froze me where I stood and had my jaw dropping to the floor.

It was Edward. It was the expression on his face.

I’d seen him angry, and I’d seen him arrogant, and once I’d seen him in pain. But this—this was beyond agony. His eyes were half-crazed. He didn’t look up to glare at me. He stared down at the couch beside him with an expression like someone had lit him on fire. His hands were rigid claws at his side.

I couldn’t even enjoy his anguish. I could only think of one thing that would make him look like that, and my eyes followed his.

Let's be real, there are a lot of things that could bring Edward to the extremes of drama.

quote:

I saw her at the same moment that I caught her scent.

Her warm, clean, human scent.

Bella was half-hidden behind the arm of the sofa, curled up in a loose fetal position, her arms wrapped around her knees. For a long second I could see nothing except that she was still the Bella that I loved, her skin still a soft, pale peach, her eyes still the same chocolate brown. My heart thudded a strange, broken meter, and I wondered if this was just some lying dream that I was about to wake up from.

Then I really saw her.

There were deep circles under her eyes, dark circles that jumped out because her face was all haggard. Was she thinner? Her skin seemed tight—like her cheekbones might break right through it. Most of her dark hair was pulled away from her face into a messy knot, but a few strands stuck limply to her forehead and neck, to the sheen of sweat that covered her skin. There was something about her fingers and wrists that looked so fragile it was scary.

She was sick. Very sick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMSo4faQrZo

We have finally gotten to the point where I can post this video. This shows just how much work the filmmakers of the Breaking Dawn adaptation had to work to cut down the book to a vaguely reasonable size and still have to put it into two movies to get everything important. Everything from Kaure speaking in her "alien tongue" to Edward up until this point was skillfully condensed into just over 6 minutes of footage. Not only was the scene with Quil and Claire (which only served to justify child grooming) excised, so was the entire sequence of events in which Sam tells Jacob not to be a dumbass and Jacob decides to Leeroy Jenkins his way in.

quote:

Not a lie. The story Charlie’d told Billy was not a story. While I stared, eyes bugging, her skin turned light green.

The blond bloodsucker—the showy one, Rosalie—bent over her, cutting into my view, hovering in a strange, protective way.

This was wrong. I knew how Bella felt about almost everything—her thoughts were so obvious; sometimes it was like they were printed on her forehead. So she didn’t have to tell me every detail of a situation for me to get it. I knew that Bella didn’t like Rosalie. I’d seen it in the set of her lips when she talked about her. Not just that she didn’t like her. She was afraid of Rosalie. Or she had been.

The only person in Forks who didn't instantly like her on the spot.

quote:

There was no fear as Bella glanced up at her now. Her expression was… apologetic or something. Then Rosalie snatched a basin from the floor and held it under Bella’s chin just in time for Bella to throw up noisily into it.

Edward fell to his knees by Bella’s side—his eyes all tortured-looking—and Rosalie held out her hand, warning him to keep back.

None of it made sense.

When she could raise her head, Bella smiled weakly at me, sort of embarrassed. “Sorry about that,” she whispered to me.

Edward moaned real quiet. His head slumped against Bella’s knees. She put one of her hands against his cheek. Like she was comforting him.

Somehow Edward is finding even more overblown theatrics. He's a walking opera.

quote:

I didn’t realize my legs had carried me forward until Rosalie hissed at me, suddenly appearing between me and the couch. She was like a person on a TV screen. I didn’t care she was there. She didn’t seem real.

“Rose, don’t,” Bella whispered. “It’s fine.”

Blondie moved out of my way, though I could tell she hated to do it. Scowling at me, she crouched by Bella’s head, tensed to spring. She was easier to ignore than I ever would have dreamed.

Please stop calling her "Blondie" like you're a thug in a PG-rated action movie from the 80s.

quote:

“Bella, what’s wrong?” I whispered. Without thinking about it, I found myself on my knees, too, leaning over the back of the couch across from her… husband. He didn’t seem to notice me, and I barely glanced at him. I reached out for her free hand, taking it in both of mine. Her skin was icy. “Are you all right?”

It was a stupid question. She didn’t answer it.

“I’m so glad you came to see me today, Jacob,” she said.

"I'm sure you didn't come here with the intention of killing me and my entire family!"

quote:

Even though I knew Edward couldn’t hear her thoughts, he seemed to hear some meaning I didn’t. He moaned again, into the blanket that covered her, and she stroked his cheek.

“What is it, Bella?” I insisted, wrapping my hands tight around her cold, fragile fingers.

Instead of answering, she glanced around the room like she was searching for something, both a plea and a warning in her look. Six pairs of anxious yellow eyes stared back at her. Finally, she turned to Rosalie. “Help me up, Rose?” she asked.

Rosalie’s lips pulled back over her teeth, and she glared up at me like she wanted to rip my throat out. I was sure that was exactly the case.

“Please, Rose.”

The blonde made a face, but leaned over her again, next to Edward, who didn’t move an inch. She put her arm carefully behind Bella’s shoulders.

“No,” I whispered. “Don’t get up.…” She looked so weak.

“I’m answering your question,” she snapped, sounding a little bit more like the way she usually talked to me.

It says a lot when her snapping at her best friend is their "normal" means of communication.

quote:

Rosalie pulled Bella off the couch. Edward stayed where he was, sagging forward till his face was buried in the cushions. The blanket fell to the ground at Bella’s feet.

Edward is turning what should be a tragedy into a comedy.

quote:

Bella’s body was swollen, her torso ballooning out in a strange, sick way. It strained against the faded gray sweatshirt that was way too big for her shoulders and arms. The rest of her seemed thinner, like the big bulge had grown out of what it had sucked from her. It took me a second to realize what the deformed part was—I didn’t understand until she folded her hands tenderly around her bloated stomach, one above and one below. Like she was cradling it.

I saw it then, but I still couldn’t believe it. I’d seen her just a month ago. There was no way she could be pregnant. Not that pregnant.

Except that she was.

Maybe she had some of Alex Jones's chili?

quote:

I didn’t want to see this, didn’t want to think about this. I didn’t want to imagine him inside her. I didn’t want to know that something I hated so much had taken root in the body I loved. My stomach heaved, and I had to swallow back vomit.

But it was worse than that, so much worse. Her distorted body, the bones jabbing against the skin of her face. I could only guess that she looked like this—so pregnant, so sick—because whatever was inside her was taking her life to feed its own.…

Because it was a monster. Just like its father.

I always knew he would kill her.

His head snapped up as he heard the words inside mine. One second we were both on our knees, and then he was on his feet, towering over me. His eyes were flat black, the circles under them dark purple.

“Outside, Jacob,” he snarled.

I was on my feet, too. Looking down on him now. This was why I was here.

“Let’s do this,” I agreed.

The one thing that can snap Edward out of melodrama is the chance to kill someone.

quote:

The big one, Emmett, pushed forward on Edward’s other side, with the hungry-looking one, Jasper, right behind him. I really didn’t care. Maybe my pack would clean up the scraps when they finished me off. Maybe not. It didn’t matter.

For the tiniest part of a second my eyes touched on the two standing in the back. Esme. Alice. Small and distractingly feminine. Well, I was sure the others would kill me before I had to do anything about them. I didn’t want to kill girls… even vampire girls.

Though I might make an exception for that blonde.

"For no reason other than the author wanting her to get poo poo on in this book."

quote:

“No,” Bella gasped, and she stumbled forward, out of balance, to clutch at Edward’s arm. Rosalie moved with her, like there was a chain locking them to each other.

“I just need to talk to him, Bella,” Edward said in a low voice, talking only to her. He reached up to touch her face, to stroke it. This made the room turn red, made me see fire—that, after all he’d done to her, he was still allowed to touch her that way. “Don’t strain yourself,” he went on, pleading. “Please rest. We’ll both be back in just a few minutes.”

She stared at his face, reading it carefully. Then she nodded and drooped toward the couch. Rosalie helped lower her back onto the cushions. Bella stared at me, trying to hold my eyes.

“Behave,” she insisted. “And then come back.”

I didn’t answer. I wasn’t making any promises today. I looked away and then followed Edward out the front door.

A random, disjointed voice in my head noted that separating him from the coven hadn’t been so difficult, had it?

You haven't even transformed, man. This guy is so fast that you'll be torn in half while still shaking and heating up on the law.

quote:

He kept walking, never checking to see if I was about to spring at his unprotected back. I supposed he didn’t need to check. He would know when I decided to attack. Which meant I’d have to make that decision very quickly.

“I’m not ready for you to kill me yet, Jacob Black,” he whispered as he paced quickly away from the house. “You’ll have to have a little patience.”

Like I cared about his schedule. I growled under my breath. “Patience isn’t my specialty.”

hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

I thought it would be impossible to find a main character as loathsome as the 50 Shades ones, but I was wrong.

MrNemo
Aug 26, 2010

"I just love beeting off"



I mean, that's literally these characters with some serial numbers filed off...

Grammarchist
Jan 28, 2013



Did Meyer really just sideline whatever discussion Carlisle and Rosalie would have had with Bella about what was at stake? I guess that would have been suspiciously close to a doctor helping a woman make informed decisions about her own health. There's a ton of character interplay with Rosalie we're just not allowed to see, which is weird given she seems to have helped the protagonist during a major crisis.

It's like how Seth and Edward fought vampires together once so they're friends now.

HopperUK
Apr 29, 2007

Clear off, fatso, this is a respectable establishment




Fallen Rib

1998 British series 'Ultraviolet' had an episode about a vampiric pregnancy and it was excellent. It included two of the team, a doctor and a Catholic priest, arguing furiously about whether the pregnancy should be ended.

"Have you ever performed an abortion?"
"Have you ever sanctioned one?"
"It's not human."
"It may be half human."
"That's what I said."

Also includes the woman in question going to look for some advice only to look around the clinic she's in and gasp in horrified tones. "You're PRO LIFE!"

That was a good show about vampires.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Grammarchist posted:

Did Meyer really just sideline whatever discussion Carlisle and Rosalie would have had with Bella about what was at stake? I guess that would have been suspiciously close to a doctor helping a woman make informed decisions about her own health. There's a ton of character interplay with Rosalie we're just not allowed to see, which is weird given she seems to have helped the protagonist during a major crisis.

It's like how Seth and Edward fought vampires together once so they're friends now.

We do get more about Rosalie's position in this later, but this will rapidly become another one of those situations where Meyer doesn't know how to do complex characters and so just has everyone start acting like raging, unreasonable assholes when necessary.

Also I promise you have no idea where this conversation between Jacob and Edward is going.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



quote:

He kept walking, maybe a couple hundred yards down the drive away from the house, with me right on his heels. I was all hot, my fingers trembling. On the edge, ready and waiting.

He stopped without warning and pivoted to face me. His expression froze me again.

For a second I was just a kid—a kid who had lived all of his life in the same tiny town. Just a child. Because I knew I would have to live a lot more, suffer a lot more, to ever understand the searing agony in Edward’s eyes.

Remember when you tried to fake a suicide attempt to get Bella to make out with you?

quote:

He raised a hand as if to wipe sweat from his forehead, but his fingers scraped against his face like they were going to rip his granite skin right off. His black eyes burned in their sockets, out of focus, or seeing things that weren’t there. His mouth opened like he was going to scream, but nothing came out.

This was the face a man would have if he were burning at the stake.

For a moment I couldn’t speak. It was too real, this face—I’d seen a shadow of it in the house, seen it in her eyes and his, but this made it final. The last nail in her coffin.

“It’s killing her, right? She’s dying.” And I knew when I said it that my face was a watered-down echo of his. Weaker, different, because I was still in shock. I hadn’t wrapped my head around it yet—it was happening too fast. He’d had time to get to this point. And it was different because I’d already lost her so many times, so many ways, in my head. And different because she was never really mine to lose.

And different because this wasn’t my fault.

This is what happens when you're raised not knowing what condoms are.

quote:

“My fault,” Edward whispered, and his knees gave out. He crumpled in front of me, vulnerable, the easiest target you could imagine.

But I felt cold as snow—there was no fire in me.

Let's not think too hard about how the white vampires are portrayed as cold, the dark-skinned Quileute are portrayed as hot, and Jacob is now saying he's closer to the vampires. Because the implications will actually get more obvious later on!

quote:

“Yes,” he groaned into the dirt, like he was confessing to the ground. “Yes, it’s killing her.”

His broken helplessness irritated me. I wanted a fight, not an execution. Where was his smug superiority now?

“So why hasn’t Carlisle done anything?” I growled. “He’s a doctor, right? Get it out of her.”

He looked up then and answered me in a tired voice. Like he was explaining this to a kindergartener for the tenth time. “She won’t let us.”

It took a minute for the words to sink in. Jeez, she was running true to form. Of course, die for the monster spawn. It was so Bella.

So this is where I mentioned that Meyer's own attempt at an anti-abortion moral message is going to collide with the fictional reality she's created. Nobody actually knows if this vampire baby is going to come out viable, or if it might be the worst kind of immortal child where a permanent infant is given vampire superpowers and an infant's morality (something Ray Bradbury wrote about in The Small Assassin). Even if you were anti-abortion, unless you were the most radical kind, this would absolutely be a case where an abortion would be considered the smartest idea for the safety of not just the mother but the entire town.

quote:

“You know her well,” he whispered. “How quickly you see.… I didn’t see. Not in time. She wouldn’t talk to me on the way home, not really. I thought she was frightened—that would be natural. I thought she was angry with me for putting her through this, for endangering her life. Again. I never imagined what she was really thinking, what she was resolving. Not until my family met us at the airport and she ran right into Rosalie’s arms. Rosalie’s! And then I heard what Rosalie was thinking. I didn’t understand until I heard that. Yet you understand after one second.…” He half-sighed, half-groaned.

“Just back up a second. She won’t let you.” The sarcasm was acid on my tongue. “Did you ever notice that she’s exactly as strong as a normal hundred-and-ten-pound human girl? How stupid are you vamps? Hold her down and knock her out with drugs.”

“I wanted to,” he whispered. “Carlisle would have.…”

What, too noble were they?

“No. Not noble. Her bodyguard complicated things.”

Oh. His story hadn’t made much sense before, but it fit together now. So that’s what Blondie was up to. What was in it for her, though? Did the beauty queen want Bella to die so bad?

“Maybe,” he said. “Rosalie doesn’t look at it quite that way.”

So is this canon that the internal monologue of Jacob and Bella actually their thoughts exactly spelled out for any mind readers in the cast?

quote:

“So take the blonde out first. Your kind can be put back together, right? Turn her into a jigsaw and take care of Bella.”

Horrible, but technically correct!

quote:

“Emmett and Esme are backing her up. Emmett would never let us… and Carlisle won’t help me with Esme against it.…” He trailed off, his voice disappearing.

“You should have left Bella with me.”

“Yes.”

It was a bit late for that, though. Maybe he should have thought about all this before he knocked her up with the life-sucking monster.

"Let me do it instead!"

quote:

He stared up at me from inside his own personal hell, and I could see that he agreed with me.

“We didn’t know,” he said, the words as quiet as a breath. “I never dreamed. There’s never been anything like Bella and I before. How could we know that a human was able to conceive a child with one of us—”

“When the human should get ripped to shreds in the process?”

“Yes,” he agreed in a tense whisper. “They’re out there, the sadistic ones, the incubus, the succubus. They exist. But the seduction is merely a prelude to the feast. No one survives.” He shook his head like the idea revolted him. Like he was any different.

“I didn’t realize they had a special name for what you are,” I spit.

He stared up at me with a face that looked a thousand years old.

“Even you, Jacob Black, cannot hate me as much as I hate myself.”

Wrong, I thought, too enraged to speak.

No no, he's right. This guy has spent the past century flopping himself dramatically across couches and wailing at why God has forsaken him, killing humans because he was tired of living off animal blood, and then wailing at how he's a monster.

quote:

“Killing me now doesn’t save her,” he said quietly.

“So what does?”

“Jacob, you have to do something for me.”

“The hell I do, parasite!”

He kept staring at me with those half-tired, half-crazy eyes. “For her?”

I clenched my teeth together hard. “I did everything I could to keep her away from you. Every single thing. It’s too late.”

“You know her, Jacob. You connect to her on a level that I don’t even understand. You are part of her, and she is part of you. She won’t listen to me, because she thinks I’m underestimating her. She thinks she’s strong enough for this.…” He choked and then swallowed. “She might listen to you.”

I still don't see it. Anything that could imply a legitimate emotional connection different from Edward was kept mostly off-screen, and almost all of their interactions since his transformation have been them arguing or Jacob sexually assaulting her before she goes "I can't be mad, you're my best friend!"

quote:

“Why would she?”

He lurched to his feet, his eyes burning brighter than before, wilder. I wondered if he was really going crazy. Could vampires lose their minds?

“Maybe,” he answered my thought. “I don’t know. It feels like it.” He shook his head. “I have to try to hide this in front of her, because stress makes her more ill. She can’t keep anything down as it is. I have to be composed; I can’t make it harder. But that doesn’t matter now. She has to listen to you!”

“I can’t tell her anything you haven’t. What do you want me to do? Tell her she’s stupid? She probably already knows that. Tell her she’s going to die? I bet she knows that, too.”

“You can offer her what she wants.”

He wasn’t making any sense. Part of the crazy?

This is going somewhere.

quote:

“I don’t care about anything but keeping her alive,” he said, suddenly focused now. “If it’s a child she wants, she can have it. She can have half a dozen babies. Anything she wants.” He paused for one beat. “She can have puppies, if that’s what it takes.”

He met my stare for a moment and his face was frenzied under the thin layer of control. My hard scowl crumbled as I processed his words, and I felt my mouth pop open in shock.

Yes.

quote:

He met my stare for a moment and his face was frenzied under the thin layer of control. My hard scowl crumbled as I processed his words, and I felt my mouth pop open in shock.

“But not this way!” he hissed before I could recover. “Not this thing that’s sucking the life from her while I stand there helpless! Watching her sicken and waste away. Seeing it hurting her.” He sucked in a fast breath like someone had punched him in the gut. “You have to make her see reason, Jacob. She won’t listen to me anymore. Rosalie’s always there, feeding her insanity—encouraging her. Protecting her. No, protecting it. Bella’s life means nothing to her.”

The noise coming from my throat sounded like I was choking.

What was he saying? That Bella should, what? Have a baby? With me? What? How? Was he giving her up? Or did he think she wouldn’t mind being shared? “Whichever. Whatever keeps her alive.”

Yes, Edward's master plan is "If you get an abortion, I'll let Jacob impregnate you instead."

quote:

“That’s the craziest thing you’ve said yet,” I mumbled.

“She loves you.”

“Not enough.”

“She’s ready to die to have a child. Maybe she’d accept something less extreme.”

Jesus Christ.

quote:

“Don’t you know her at all?”

“I know, I know. It’s going to take a lot of convincing. That’s why I need you. You know how she thinks. Make her see sense.”

I couldn’t think about what he was suggesting. It was too much. Impossible. Wrong. Sick. Borrowing Bella for the weekends and then returning her Monday morning like a rental movie? So messed up.

Strategic cucking.

quote:

So tempting.

I didn’t want to consider, didn’t want to imagine, but the images came anyway. I’d fantasized about Bella that way too many times, back when there was still a possibility of us, and then long after it was clear that the fantasies would only leave festering sores because there was no possibility, none at all. I hadn’t been able to help myself then. I couldn’t stop myself now. Bella in my arms, Bella sighing my name…

Worse still, this new image I’d never had before, one that by all rights shouldn’t have existed for me. Not yet. An image I knew I wouldn’t’ve suffered over for years if he hadn’t shoved it in my head now. But it stuck there, winding threads through my brain like a weed—poisonous and unkillable. Bella, healthy and glowing, so different than now, but something the same: her body, not distorted, changed in a more natural way. Round with my child.

Every time you think this book has hit a new low, it takes a sledgehammer to the foundation.

quote:

I tried to escape the venomous weed in my mind. “Make Bella see sense? What universe do you live in?”

“At least try.”

I shook my head fast. He waited, ignoring the negative answer because he could hear the conflict in my thoughts.

“Where is this psycho crap coming from? Are you making this up as you go?”

The author definitely is!

quote:

“I’ve been thinking of nothing but ways to save her since I realized what she was planning to do. What she would die to do. But I didn’t know how to contact you. I knew you wouldn’t listen if I called. I would have come to find you soon, if you hadn’t come today. But it’s hard to leave her, even for a few minutes. Her condition… it changes so fast. The thing is… growing. Swiftly. I can’t be away from her now.”

“What is it?”

“None of us have any idea. But it is stronger than she is. Already.”

I could suddenly see it then—see the swelling monster in my head, breaking her from the inside out.

Again, you can't write an anti-abortion narrative if you're going to make the baby literally explode the mother from the inside out and then potentially eat the rest of Forks.

quote:

“Help me stop it,” he whispered. “Help me stop this from happening.”

How? By offering my stud services?” He didn’t even flinch when I said that, but I did. “You’re really sick. She’ll never listen to this.”

“Try. There’s nothing to lose now. How will it hurt?”

It would hurt me. Hadn’t I taken enough rejection from Bella without this?

“A little pain to save her? Is it such a high cost?”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUrMO3YjRRo

quote:

“But it won’t work.”

“Maybe not. Maybe it will confuse her, though. Maybe she’ll falter in her resolve. One moment of doubt is all I need.”

“And then you pull the rug out from under the offer? ‘Just kidding, Bella’?”

“If she wants a child, that’s what she gets. I won’t rescind.”

I couldn’t believe I was even thinking about this. Bella would punch me—not that I cared about that, but it would probably break her hand again. I shouldn’t let him talk to me, mess with my head. I should just kill him now.

How is this still going?

quote:

“Not now,” he whispered. “Not yet. Right or wrong, it would destroy her, and you know it. No need to be hasty. If she won’t listen to you, you’ll get your chance. The moment Bella’s heart stops beating, I will be begging for you to kill me.”

“You won’t have to beg long.”

The hint of a worn smile tugged at the corner of his mouth. “I’m very much counting on that.”

“Then we have a deal.”

He nodded and held out his cold stone hand.

Swallowing my disgust, I reached out to take his hand. My fingers closed around the rock, and I shook it once.

“We have a deal,” he agreed.

Anias
Jun 3, 2010

It really is a lovely hat


Maybe this is supposed to be about male gaze and how it reinforces the patriarchy. IDK, taking it at face value as it is feels gross so my brain is really trying to come up with some sort of authorial intent to deconstruct the larger ideas of selling/valuing women for their child bearing potential and all the side arguments by men about abortion while the women are strangely silenced and just do their thing as best they can.

It's bella's body/life and she's made a very clear choice which everyone acknowledges, yet only esme/rosalie/emmett are on board with that? Meanwhile here is bella's husband colluding with her ex to distract her long enough to forcibly abort the baby he regrets conceiving. Even carlisle is presented as being neutral. Just filing the supernatural bits off, this is powerful stuff, but instead of focusing on any of that from the bella or rosalie or esme pov, we have this jacob lens to see it all through.

Presumably Alice also saw all of this and -tacitly approved- by staying silent. Since you know, "WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN?" by our idiot flopster Edward just really drives it home. So that makes a full sweep of the women in the group being silent and taking action to keep the baby. It sure would be nice to have one of their viewpoints here to contrast with.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Anias posted:

Presumably Alice also saw all of this and -tacitly approved- by staying silent. Since you know, "WHO COULD HAVE KNOWN?" by our idiot flopster Edward just really drives it home. So that makes a full sweep of the women in the group being silent and taking action to keep the baby. It sure would be nice to have one of their viewpoints here to contrast with.

Alice's future vision is so inconsistent that it seems to only exist as a plot device. In New Moon she flew all the way back to Forks because her vision of Bella's cliff jump was so perfectly accurate that she had to make sure she wasn't dead. All the way back in the very first book, Alice sees a potential future of Bella as a vampire with them. When Bella calls her after being impregnated, she doesn't seem to have foreseen that happening at all. Maybe she was being polite and not watching them gently caress?

hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

Anias posted:

Maybe this is supposed to be about male gaze and how it reinforces the patriarchy. IDK, taking it at face value as it is feels gross so my brain is really trying to come up with some sort of authorial intent to deconstruct the larger ideas of selling/valuing women for their child bearing potential and all the side arguments by men about abortion while the women are strangely silenced and just do their thing as best they can.
I honestly don't think she put enough thought into it to realize the opinions were split down gender lines. Bella's the anti-abortion martyr, with her ectopic vampire pregnancy. The other two main characters are against her martyrdom to add tension, and since those 2 are much stronger than her, some secondary characters are on her side solely to explain why the tension isn't immediately resolved.

It's lazy, lazy writing, and sentences like "His black eyes burned in their sockets, out of focus, or seeing things that weren’t there. His mouth opened like he was going to scream, but nothing came out" remind me of the totally dark and edgy stories I used to write when I was 14-15.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

Oh my god, a young adult book published in 2008 and marketed heavily to young women has two prominent male characters making a deal to loan out a woman who's married to one of them. Gross! And for the cherry on top, there are hints of the same sorts of thinking that brings us poo poo like "black bull knocks up my white wife while I watch them" porn.

This is filth.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Turns out Bella and Edward put "Berth ell pup" on all the wedding invitations.

Grammarchist
Jan 28, 2013



You were right. I had no idea what was coming and I refuse to ponder how this goes now.

hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

chitoryu12 posted:

Turns out Bella and Edward put "Berth ell pup" on all the wedding invitations.

I hate that I get this.

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

hyperhazard posted:

I hate that I get this.

I did some googling and it's eluding me.

hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

Midjack posted:

I did some googling and it's eluding me.
It's from a reddit post a few years ago where a fiance had a cuckold fetish. I'll let it speak for itself.

https://archive.is/OBpSU

Update, with the famous line: http://archive.is/wu9O5

Midjack
Dec 24, 2007






Biscuit Hider

hyperhazard posted:

It's from a reddit post a few years ago where a fiance had a cuckold fetish. I'll let it speak for itself.

https://archive.is/OBpSU

Update, with the famous line: http://archive.is/wu9O5

Well that's cool I guess.

Thanks for the explanation.

Shwoo
Jul 21, 2011


chitoryu12 posted:

Turns out Bella and Edward put "Berth ell pup" on all the wedding invitations.
Werth elf pop.

I bet Edward's going to completely reverse his opinion once the baby's born and turn into a proud father. I only know roughly what happens, but it feels like this is where this is going.

SUPERMAN'S GAL PAL
Feb 21, 2006

Holy Moly! DARKSEID IS!


I had completely forgotten about this part because Bella’s physical state stands out to me more and I can’t believe how grody this whole exchange is. With all the dancing around the actual subject I wonder how many readers caught on to the implications of what Edward was suggesting.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Chapter 10: Why Didn't I Just Walk Away? Oh Right, Because I'm An Idiot.

These chapter titles are somehow getting worse.

quote:

I felt like - like I don't know what. Like this wasn't real. Like I was in some Goth version of a bad sitcom. Instead of being the A/V dweeb about to ask the head cheerleader to the prom, I was the finished-second-place werewolf about to ask the vampire's wife to shack up and procreate. Nice.

From a bizarre native cuckold fantasy to a middle-aged woman trying to write clever teen dialogue.

quote:

No, I wouldn't do it. It was twisted and wrong. I was going to forget all about what he'd said.

But I would talk to her. I'd try to make her listen to me.

And she wouldn't. Just like always.

Edward didn't answer or comment on my thoughts as he led the way back to the house. I wondered about the place that he'd chosen to stop. Was it far enough from the house that the others couldn't hear his whispers? Was that the point?

Maybe. When we walked through the door, the other Cullens' eyes were suspicious and confused. No one looked disgusted or outraged. So they must not have heard either favor Edward had asked me for.

Alice carefully keeping her future vision powers turned off.

quote:

I hesitated in the open doorway, not sure what to do now. It was better right there, with a little bit of breathable air blowing in from outside.

Edward walked into the middle of the huddle, shoulders stiff. Bella watched him anxiously, and then her eyes flickered to me for a second. Then she was watching him again.

Her face turned a grayish pale, and I could see what he meant about the stress making her feel worse.

"We're going to let Jacob and Bella speak privately," Edward said. There was no inflection at all in his voice. Robotic.

Very carefully trying not to let slip that his plan is "Jacob will raw dog Bella in return for an abortion."

quote:

"Over my pile of ashes," Rosalie hissed at him. She was still hovering by Bella's head, one of her cold hands placed possessively on Bella's sallow cheek.

Edward didn't look at her. "Bella," he said in that same empty tone. "Jacob wants to talk to you. Are you afraid to be alone with him?"

Bella looked at me, confused. Then she looked at Rosalie.

"Rose, it's fine. Jake's not going to hurt us. Go with Edward."

"It might be a trick," the blonde warned.

"I don't see how," Bella said.

Jacob must have been looking especially murderous when he walked in, since Alice can't read his future to see that he was coming to slaughter the family.

quote:

"Carlisle and I will always be in your sight, Rosalie," Edward said. The emotionless voice was cracking, showing the anger through it. "We're the ones she's afraid of."

"No," Bella whispered. Her eyes were glistening, her lashes wet. "No, Edward. I'm not -"

He shook his head, smiling a little. The smile was painful to look at. "I didn't mean it that way, Bella. I'm fine. Don't worry about me."

Sickening. He was right - she was beating herself up about hurting his feelings. The girl was a classic martyr. She'd totally been born in the wrong century. She should have lived back when she could have gotten herself fed to some lions for a good cause.

And in-universe, all of her martyrdom has historically been useless.

quote:

"Everyone," Edward said, his hand stiffly motioning toward the door. "Please."

The composure he was trying to keep up for Bella was shaky. I could see how close he was to that burning man he'd been outside. The others saw it, too. Silently, they moved out the door while I shifted out of the way. They moved fast; my heart beat twice, and the room was cleared except for Rosalie, hesitating in the middle of the floor, and Edward, still waiting by the door.

"Rose," Bella said quietly. "I want you to go."

The blonde glared at Edward and then gestured for him to go first. He disappeared out the door. She gave me a long warning glower, and then she disappeared, too.

Once we were alone, I crossed the room and sat on the floor next to Bella. I took both her cold hands in mine, rubbing them carefully.

"Thanks, Jake. That feels good."

"I'm not going to lie, Bells. You're hideous."

"I know," she sighed. Tm scary-looking."

"Thing-from-the-swamp scary," I agreed.

"Abortion clinic scary."

quote:

She laughed. "It's so good having you here. It feels nice to smile. I don't know how much more drama I can stand."

I rolled my eyes.

"Okay, okay," she agreed. "I bring it on myself."

"Yeah, you do. What're you thinking, Bells? Seriously!"

"Did he ask you to yell at me?"

"Sort of. Though I can't figure why he thinks you'd listen to me. You never have before."

"Especially not the part where I demanded that you break up with your boyfriend to date me instead!"

quote:

She sighed.

"I told you - ," I started to say.

"Did you know that 'I told you so' has a brother, Jacob?" she asked, cutting me off. "His name is 'Shut the hell up;."

"Good one."

She grinned at me. Her skin stretched tight over the bones. "I can't take credit - I got it off a rerun of The Simpsons."

Specifically, Mr. Burns.

quote:

"Missed that one."

"It was funny."

We didn't talk for a minute. Her hands were starting to warm up a little.

"Did he really ask you to talk to me?"

I nodded. "To talk some sense into you. There's a battle that's lost before it starts."

"So why did you agree?"

I didn't answer. I wasn't sure I knew.

He's still trying to figure out what the gently caress is going on with the plot.

quote:

I did know this - every second I spent with her was only going to add to the pain I would have to suffer later. Like a junkie with a limited supply, the day of reckoning was coming for me. The more hits I took now, the harder it would be when my supply ran out.

No, Edward is supposed to be the junkie analogue here!

quote:

"It'll work out, you know," she said after a quiet minute. "I believe that."

That made me see red again. "Is dementia one of your symptoms?" I snapped.

She laughed, though my anger was so real that my hands were shaking around hers.

"Maybe," she said. Tm not saying things will work out easily, Jake. But how could I have lived through all that I've lived through and not believe in magic by this point?"

Imagine someone saying this in real life about a non-viable pregnancy that will inevitably result in her death.

quote:

"Magic?"

"Especially for you," she said. She was smiling. She pulled one of her hands away from mine and pressed it against my cheek. Warmer than before, but it felt cool against my skin, like most things did. "More than anyone else, you've got some magic waiting to make things right for you."

"What are you babbling about?"

Still smiling. "Edward told me once what it was like - your imprinting thing. He said it was like A Midsummer Night's Dream, like magic. You'll find who you're really looking for, Jacob, and maybe then all of this will make sense."

If she hadn't looked so fragile I would've been screaming.

You should be!

quote:

As it was, I did growl at her.

"If you think that imprinting could ever make sense of this insanity..." I struggled for words. "Do you really think that just because I might someday imprint on some stranger it would make this right?" I jabbed a finger toward her swollen body. "Tell me what the point was then, Bella! What was the point of me loving you? What was the point of you loving him? When you die" - the words were a snarl - "how is that ever right again? What's the point to all the pain? Mine, yours, his! You'll kill him, too, not that I care about that." She flinched, but I kept going. "So what was the point of your twisted love story, in the end? If there is any sense, please show me, Bella, because I don't see it."

Jacob has had it up to here with Meyer's writing!

quote:

She sighed. "I don't know yet, Jake. But I just... feel... that this is all going somewhere good, hard to see as it is now. I guess you could call it faith."

"You're dying for nothing, Bella! Nothing!"

Her hand dropped from my face to her bloated stomach, caressed it. She didn't have to say the words for me to know what she was thinking. She was dying for it.

"I'm not going to die," she said through her teeth, and I could tell she was repeating things she'd said before. "I will keep my heart beating. I'm strong enough for that."

Yeah, that's a great lesson to teach young girls who might be struggling with a dangerous pregnancy later in life.

quote:

"That's a load of crap, Bella. You've been trying to keep up with the supernatural for too long. No normal person can do it. You're not strong enough." I took her face in my hand. I didn't have to remind myself to be gentle. Everything about her screamed breakable.

He turns out to be absolutely correct, in fact.

quote:

"I can do this. I can do this," she muttered, sounding a lot like that kids' book about the little engine that could.

"Doesn't look like it to me. So what's your plan? I hope you have one."

She nodded, not meeting my eyes. "Did you know Esme jumped off a cliff? When she was human, I mean."

"So?"

"So she was close enough to dead that they didn't even bother taking her to the emergency room - they took her right around to the morgue. Her heart was still beating, though, when Carlisle found her -"

That's what she'd meant before, about keeping her heart beating.

"You're not planning on surviving this human," I stated dully.

"No. I'm not stupid." She met my stare then. "I guess you probably have your own opinion on that point, though."

"Emergency vampirization," I mumbled.

"It worked for Esme. And Emmett, and Rosalie, and even Edward. None of them were in such great shape. Carlisle only changed them because it was that or death. He doesn't end lives, he saves them."

Unfortunately, this is not actually an option in real life.

quote:

I felt a sudden twinge of guilt about the good vampire doctor, like before. I shoved the thought away and started in on the begging.

"Listen to me, Bells. Don't do it that way." Like before, when the call from Charlie had come, I could see how much difference it really made to me. I realized I needed her to stay alive, in some form. In any form. I took a deep breath. "Don't wait until it's too late, Bella. Not that way. Live. Okay? Just live. Don't do this to me. Don't do it to him." My voice got harder, louder. "You know what he's going to do when you die. You've seen it before. You want him to go back to those Italian killers?" She cringed into the sofa.

I left out the part about how that wouldn't be necessary this time.

Someone please just tell Edward what a bonfire is.

quote:

Struggling to make my voice softer, I asked, "Remember when I got mangled up by those newborns? What did you tell me?"

I waited, but she wouldn't answer. She pressed her lips together.

"You told me to be good and listen to Carlisle," I reminded her. "And what did I do? I listened to the vampire. For you."

"You listened because it was the right thing to do."

"Okay - pick either reason."

She took a deep breath. "It's not the right thing now." Her gaze touched her big round stomach and she whispered under her breath, "I won't kill him."

My hands shook again. "Oh, I hadn't heard the great news. A bouncing baby boy, huh? Shoulda brought some blue balloons."

Her face turned pink. The color was so beautiful - it twisted in my stomach like a knife. A serrated knife, rusty and ragged.

I was going to lose this. Again.

"I don't know he's a boy," she admitted, a little sheepish. "The ultrasound wouldn't work. The membrane around the baby is too hard - like their skin. So he's a little mystery. But I always see a boy in my head."

"It's not some pretty baby in there, Bella."

"We'll see," she said. Almost smug.

"You won't," I snarled.

I still think it would be a great twist for Bella to just die and have the baby be a monster.

quote:

"You're very pessimistic, Jacob. There is definitely a chance that I might walk away from this."

I couldn't answer. I looked down and breathed deep and slow, trying to get a grip on my fury.

"Jake," she said, and she patted my hair, stroked my cheek. "It's going to be okay. Shh. it's okay."

I didn't look up. "No. It will not be okay."

She wiped something wet from my cheek. "Shh."

Is she trying on purpose to make Bella seem divorced from reality?

quote:

"What's the deal, Bella?" I stared at the pale carpet. My bare feet were dirty, leaving smudges. Good. "I thought the whole point was that you wanted your vampire more than anything. And now you're just giving him up? That doesn't make any sense. Since when are you desperate to be a mom? If you wanted that so much, why did you marry a vampire?"

This is your sudden reminder that Jacob is actually doing this entire book wearing nothing but jorts. Not even shoes.

quote:

I was dangerously close to that offer he wanted me to make. I could see the words taking me that way, but I couldn't change their direction.

She sighed. "It's not like that. I didn't really care about having a baby. I didn't even think about it. It's not just having a baby. It's... well... this baby."

"It's a killer, Bella. Look at yourself."

"He's not. It's me. I'm just weak and human. But I can tough this out, Jake, I can - "

"Aw, come on! Shut up, Bella. You can spout this crap to your bloodsucker, but you're not fooling me. You know you're not going to make it."

She glared at me. "I do not know that. I'm worried about it, sure."

"Worried about it," I repeated through my teeth.

From Meyer's perspective, Bella is in the right and will turn out to be vindicated. From a realistic perspective, Edward and Jacob are right: they don't even know if this is going to be less "viable pregnancy" and more "actual superpowered monster." Read the room.

quote:

She gasped then and clutched at her stomach. My fury vanished like a light switch being turned off.

"I'm fine," she panted. It's nothing."

But I didn't hear; her hands had pulled her sweatshirt to the side, and I stared, horrified, at the skin it exposed. Her stomach looked like it was stained with big splotches of purple-black ink.

She saw my stare, and she yanked the fabric back in place.

"He's strong, that's all," she said defensively.

The ink spots were bruises.

Oh yeah, this will get even more horrifying.

quote:

I almost gagged, and I understood what he'd said, about watching it hurt her. Suddenly, I felt a little crazy myself.

"Bella," I said.

She heard the change in my voice. She looked up, still breathing heavy, her eyes confused.

"Bella, don't do this:'

"Jake - "

"Listen to me. Don't get your back up yet. Okay? Just listen. What if... ?"

"What if what?"

"What if this wasn't a one-shot deal? What if it wasn't all or nothing? What if you just listened to Carlisle like a good girl, and kept yourself alive?"

"I won't - "

"I'm not done yet. So you stay alive. Then you can start over. This didn't work out. Try again."

He's shooting his shot!

quote:

She frowned. She raised one hand and touched the place where my eyebrows were mashing together. Her fingers smoothed my forehead for a moment while she tried to make sense of it.

"I don't understand.... What do you mean, try again? You can't think Edward would let me... ? And what difference would it make? I'm sure any baby - "

"Yes," I snapped. "Any kid of his would be the same."

Her tired face just got more confused. "What?"

But I couldn't say any more. There was no point. I would never be able to save her from herself. I'd never been able to do that.

Then she blinked, and I could see she got it.

"Oh. Ugh. Please, Jacob. You think I should kill my baby and replace it with some generic substitute? Artificial insemination?" She was mad now. "Why would I want to have some stranger's baby? I suppose it just doesn't make a difference? Any baby will do?"

"I didn't mean that," I muttered. "Not a stranger."

She leaned forward. "Then what are you saying?"

"Nothing. I'm saying nothing. Same as ever."

"Where did that come from?"

"Forget it, Bella."

This is extremely uncomfortable.

quote:

She frowned, suspicious. "Did he tell you to say that?"

I hesitated, surprised that she'd made that leap so quick. "No."

"He did, didn't he?"

"No, really. He didn't say anything about artificial whatever."

Her face softened then, and she sank back against the pillows, looking exhausted. She stared off to the side when she spoke, not talking to me at all. "He would do anything for me. And I'm hurting him so much.... But what is he thinking? That I would trade this" - her hand traced across her belly - "for some stranger's ..." She mumbled the last part, and then her voice trailed off. Her eyes were wet.

"For some...some dumb stupid normal baby!"

quote:

"You don't have to hurt him," I whispered. It burned like poison in my mouth to beg for him, but I knew this angle was probably my best bet for keeping her alive. Still a thousand-to-one odds. "You could make him happy again, Bella. And I really think he's losing it. Honestly, I do."

She didn't seem to be listening; her hand made small circles on her battered stomach while she chewed on her lip. It was quiet for a long time. I wondered if the Cullens were very far away. Were they listening to my pathetic attempts to reason with her?

"Not a stranger?" she murmured to herself. I flinched. "What exactly did Edward say to you?" she asked in a low voice.

"Nothing. He just thought you might listen to me."

"Not that. About trying again."

Her eyes locked on mine, and I could see that I'd already given too much away.

"Nothing."

Her mouth fell open a little. "Wow."

All right, what's going to be her reaction to finding out that Edward just sent Jacob in to impregnate her?

quote:

It was silent for a few heartbeats. I looked down at my feet again, unable to meet her stare.

"He really would do anything, wouldn't he?" she whispered.

"I told you he was going crazy. Literally, Bells."

"I'm surprised you didn't tell on him right away. Get him in trouble."

When I looked up, she was grinning.

"Thought about it." I tried to grin back, but I could feel the smile mangle on my face.

She knew what I was offering, and she wasn't going to think twice about it. I'd known that she wouldn't. But it still stung.

"There isn't much you wouldn't do for me, either, is there?" she whispered. "I really don't know why you bother. I don't deserve either of you."

Oh. She's completely okay with it and takes it as a sign of their love for her.

Cool.

quote:

"It makes no difference, though, does it?"

"Not this time." She sighed. "I wish I could explain it to you right so that you would understand. I can't hurt him" - she pointed to her stomach - "any more than I could pick up a gun and shoot you. I love him."

"Why do you always have to love the wrong things, Bella?"

She just gives love a bad name.

quote:

"I don't think I do."

I cleared the lump out of my throat so that I could make my voice hard like I wanted it. "Trust me."

I started to get to my feet.

"Where are you going?"

"I'm not doing any good here."

She held out her thin hand, pleading. "Don't go."

I could feel the addiction sucking at me, trying to keep me near her.

"I don't belong here. I've got to get back."

"Why did you come today?" she asked, still reaching limply.

"Just to see if you were really alive. I didn't believe you were sick like Charlie said."

I couldn't tell from her face whether she bought that or not.

I legitimately do not think I could keep being friends with Jacob this far in.

quote:

"Will you come back again? Before ..."

"I'm not going to hang around and watch you die, Bella."

She flinched. "You're right, you're right. You should go."

I headed for the door.

"Bye," she whispered behind me. "Love you, Jake."

I almost went back. I almost turned around and fell down on my knees and started begging again. But I knew that I had to quit Bella, quit her cold turkey, before she killed me, like she was going to kill him.

"Sure, sure," I mumbled on my way out.

hyperhazard
Dec 4, 2011

I am the one lascivious
With magic potion niveous

chitoryu12 posted:

From Meyer's perspective, Bella is in the right and will turn out to be vindicated. From a realistic perspective, Edward and Jacob are right: they don't even know if this is going to be less "viable pregnancy" and more "actual superpowered monster." Read the room.

I haven't watched the movies, so I'm just picturing the scene in Frisky Dingo where Antagone gives birth to Cody 2, and Wendell rides it around the city as it crushes everyone.

chitoryu12
Apr 23, 2014



Also, this is one place where the film does make a change that causes a bit of an issue. The story about immortal children is shifted into Breaking Dawn Part 2 after the birth, to provide a setup for what conflict occurs immediately afterward. However, Carlisle at least should know about this and have explained to Bella all of the dangers of one. Instead he just keeps quiet until it becomes relevant again.

In the book, it makes Bella's obsession with her vampire baby even more crazy because she's already been made aware of exactly how dangerous immortal children are. An immortal newborn (if such a thing is possible) would be even more dangerous, as it would lack even the barest vestiges of morality and simply operate on highly destructive instinct. The fact that the fetus is kicking hard enough injure her indicates that it's not a human child. From all evidence they're operating on, it would be completely reasonable to conclude that whatever comes out of her could easily be so dangerous as to require immediate termination after it kills Bella. As a very strong pro-choice advocate, I would consider it a moral imperative to ignore the mother in this case.

And this goes back to how Stephenie Meyer responded to criticism of Bella's weakness and gradual adherence to standard gender roles. She claims that her books are feminist because Bella is always the one making choices for herself. What she neglects to notice is that all of the choices gradually bring Bella to the standard of a good Mormon housewife (vampirism excluded) who gets married, cooks and cleans, and has children immediately after marriage. In this case, it's pushed so strongly that it actually requires other characters to behave illogically to be painted as the villains in a standoff.

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Cythereal
Nov 8, 2009



chitoryu12 posted:

What she neglects to notice is that all of the choices gradually bring Bella to the standard of a good Mormon housewife (vampirism excluded) who gets married, cooks and cleans, and has children immediately after marriage. In this case, it's pushed so strongly that it actually requires other characters to behave illogically to be painted as the villains in a standoff.

And Bella seems to have no interests or hobbies outside of getting married and being a good Mormon housewife. She doesn't seem to read, travel, play video games, write, play sports, or do anything that doesn't revolve around supporting her family.

She seems to have never had any aspirations beyond finding a husband who will take care of her.

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