Register a SA Forums Account here!
JOINING THE SA FORUMS WILL REMOVE THIS BIG AD, THE ANNOYING UNDERLINED ADS, AND STUPID INTERSTITIAL ADS!!!

You can: log in, read the tech support FAQ, or request your lost password. This dumb message (and those ads) will appear on every screen until you register! Get rid of this crap by registering your own SA Forums Account and joining roughly 150,000 Goons, for the one-time price of $9.95! We charge money because it costs us money per month for bills, and since we don't believe in showing ads to our users, we try to make the money back through forum registrations.
 
  • Post
  • Reply
UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
https://twitter.com/ShimonPro/status/1348757491732144131?s=19

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

boop the snoot
Jun 3, 2016

probably just 10 to 15 lone wolves and not indicative of a larger systemic issue within law enforcement :shrug:

ded
Oct 27, 2005

Kooler than Jesus
100 'good cops' join the nice new shiny friendly 2021 police force. 60 of them don't make it through academy because they get sick of dealing with the supreme assholes teaching them + fellow students. 40 of them make it to the force. 20 of them report fellow officers for violations and get put on desk duty or fired. The other 20 shut the gently caress up and collect a paycheck because they realize they can't change poo poo.


Cops being bastards is a fully top down problem. If there is not major institutional change on every level on every single police force in every city this will never change.

Stingwing
Mar 26, 2010

Thank you Mr President for Making America Great Again! USA #1! I shouldn't have to understand other cultures, I'm a god damn American hero.

piL posted:

Thats his point I think. He's trying to show that if you do want to make things better you won't be able to. You'll change or quit or get fired first.

Which I think goes to show its a number game. People follow the logic, "they're the bad guy and there's no point in me participating while disagreeing, because I won't be able to effect real change before I'm back out".

The same logic though makes any large project impossible, what can one man do to force regime change in Nazi Germany? They'll get shot before they make it onto the beach in France! How could we ever build a skyscraper? It takes more manhours than I will be alive!

These projects have constraints on them that frame the problem and make them solvable. You won't be alone, there will be a combined force of millions of troops from many countries fighting together. A big chunk are going to land on a specific day and though no one could last on that beach alone and any one would die, the scale will mean that most of those landing will live.

You will not build a skyscraper alone, there will be a plan and there will be lots of people and lots of jobs to do and a single person will do a single person's worth of effort, but it will accrue and there will be a skyscraper.

So, while I've been one who has claimed that the issue is that there are few like-minded people who are willing to go do the job of becoming a cop (im certainly not interested, for example), part of the lack of that willingness is probably a lack of a combined framework, a guarantee of sufficient numbers that its not a waste. Any one person absolutely can't make the culture change. It would require numbers. Which probably requires some sort of framework or a trust in institutions, both of which are currently unavailable.



To be fair I used to have the same moronic idea when I was younger and thought about being a cop, but fortunately I realized what an incredibly dumb idea this was for the reasons others have stated.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

Melthir
Dec 29, 2009

I need to go scrap some money together cause my avatar is just sad.

ded posted:

100 'good cops' join the nice new shiny friendly 2021 police force. 60 of them don't make it through academy because they get sick of dealing with the supreme assholes teaching them + fellow students. 40 of them make it to the force. 20 of them report fellow officers for violations and get put on desk duty or fired. The other 20 shut the gently caress up and collect a paycheck because they realize they can't change poo poo.


Cops being bastards is a fully top down problem. If there is not major institutional change on every level on every single police force in every city this will never change.

From a fed LEO perspective every single place I have been stationed at once I was senior enough to partake in training others ended up with a bunch of leftist running the place. You can make a difference despite what all you dormers say. Between that and the new recruits being way more centrists and leftist to begin with its not even that hard. When one group treats you like poo poo and the other side treats you with dignity and respect....it's not rocket science in how they respond.

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018

Melthir posted:

From a fed LEO perspective every single place I have been stationed at once I was senior enough to partake in training others ended up with a bunch of leftist running the place. You can make a difference despite what all you dormers say. Between that and the new recruits being way more centrists and leftist to begin with its not even that hard. When one group treats you like poo poo and the other side treats you with dignity and respect....it's not rocket science in how they respond.

Lmao what

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost

Melthir posted:

From a fed LEO perspective every single place I have been stationed at once I was senior enough to partake in training others ended up with a bunch of leftist running the place. You can make a difference despite what all you dormers say. Between that and the new recruits being way more centrists and leftist to begin with its not even that hard. When one group treats you like poo poo and the other side treats you with dignity and respect....it's not rocket science in how they respond.

Beyond the weird syntax, “federal leos are leftists” is a galaxy brain take. What, because they support the cop union?

boop the snoot
Jun 3, 2016
Their salaries are paid for by socialism.

Melthir
Dec 29, 2009

I need to go scrap some money together cause my avatar is just sad.

It's not a hard concept. I'll break it down for you.

Im Federal law enforcement and have been for 18 years. I hate doing law enforcement and would much rather go fix broken poo poo but I keep having to do LEO poo poo do to experience and large size.

I conduct LEO training. When I leave a place it's generally full of if not leftist definitely left leaning centrists.

An individual can make a difference in spite of all the doom and gloom you guys constantly are regurgitating.

The younger guys we have coming in over the last 4-6 years swing way more left then the guys before them( insert non stop jokes about younger generations being soft.)

A bunch of the older guys treat the younger guys like poo poo due to a culture of hazing. I do not. I take my time when they are having problems and treat them like normal humans. It's pretty easy to make a lasting positive influence that way. For example the current unit I'm at was mostly centrists with probably 3 right wingers and on all right moron among the younger guys. Most of them are now leftist, one of the right wingers is center left. One hasn't changed from his libertarian views. One has been kicked out for sexual harassment/assault and the far right nut job has doubled down on Q.

Shits not hard, either the left goes in and fills the jobs and effects change or the right will. Personally I think writing off LEO'S as a lost cause because of "reasons" is stupid but I'll admit that I'm more then a little biased.

boop the snoot
Jun 3, 2016
Hmm... you can’t think of any “reasons” we write off law enforcement?

I think we have found the problem.

Melthir
Dec 29, 2009

I need to go scrap some money together cause my avatar is just sad.

boop the snoot posted:

Hmm... you can’t think of any “reasons” we write off law enforcement?

I think we have found the problem.

As opposed to reforming them into something that actually works, doesn't use excessive force. No.

I mean you guys took me from a right/centrists poo poo head to a leftist with the approach I listed above, calmly and rationally explained why some things were problems that I had never experienced. If it worked for me and the example that you guys have set over the years has worked on others I don't see any reason to wholesale write off an entire group of people just because it's a lot of work.

boop the snoot
Jun 3, 2016

Melthir posted:

As opposed to reforming them into something that actually works, doesn't use excessive force. No.

I mean you guys took me from a right/centrists poo poo head to a leftist with the approach I listed above, calmly and rationally explained why some things were problems that I had never experienced. If it worked for me and the example that you guys have set over the years has worked on others I don't see any reason to wholesale write off an entire group of people just because it's a lot of work.

You’re an idiot and all cops are bastards.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018

Melthir posted:

It's not a hard concept. I'll break it down for you.

It is because you’re clearly using entirely different definitions of words.

What is a “leftist” in your mind? What politician stops being a centrist and starts being a leftist? I’m guessing you consider yourself a centrist?

Just for reference I briefly worked as a patrol cop before I quit and went to nursing at the nearest opportunity because I just didn’t fit in, not really for political reasons at the time or anything, because if I was a leftist at the time I wouldn’t have even considered it. Modern police is fundamentally incompatible with most leftist’s idea of an ideal society, and absolutely incompatible as it currently exists in the United States. So your statement that there are a lot of leftists in the feds is baffling. If I applied again despite have more qualifications now and a diverse professional history my membership in relatively moderate left groups like the DSA and SRA would probably get me rejected.

Hell, blueleaks shows that lots of locals and DHS memos referred to the SRA as a violent extremist group despite it being a 501c4 that literally has never engaged in any sort of protest or direct action. Even if most leftists wanted to join the police to reform it they’d be rejected out of hand.

SMEGMA_MAIL fucked around with this message at 15:18 on Jan 12, 2021

Spaceguns
Aug 28, 2007

Melthir are we taking fletc training/trainers here?

I know it's the acab thread but I think you're doing great and adding some perspective.

Melthir
Dec 29, 2009

I need to go scrap some money together cause my avatar is just sad.

Spaceguns posted:

Melthir are we taking fletc training/trainers here?

I know it's the acab thread but I think you're doing great and adding some perspective.

One of the current Fletc guys are was previous subordinate yes. Wasnt really what I was talking about but it fits. He is definitely communication over force guy and FLETC is honestly a great place to learn how to not be a poo poo heel. Unfortunately when people leave and go to a shity place the local yokels tell them to knock of the non confrontational poo poo a mocho up. Some stick with what they were taught some don't.

Melthir
Dec 29, 2009

I need to go scrap some money together cause my avatar is just sad.

SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

It is because you’re clearly using entirely different definitions of words.

What is a “leftist” in your mind? What politician stops being a centrist and starts being a leftist? I’m guessing you consider yourself a centrist?

Just for reference I briefly worked as a patrol cop before I quit and went to nursing at the nearest opportunity because I just didn’t fit in, not really for political reasons at the time or anything, because if I was a leftist at the time I wouldn’t have even considered it. Modern police is fundamentally incompatible with most leftist’s idea of an ideal society, and absolutely incompatible as it currently exists in the United States. So your statement that there are a lot of leftists in the feds is baffling. If I applied again despite have more qualifications now and a diverse professional history my membership in relatively moderate left groups like the DSA and SRA would probably get me rejected.

Hell, blueleaks shows that lots of locals and DHS memos referred to the SRA as a violent extremist group despite it being a 501c4 that literally has never engaged in any sort of protest or direct action. Even if most leftists wanted to join the police to reform it they’d be rejected out of hand.

Left of center. Starts working toward utilizing tax money for social benefits as opposed towards funneling money towards people's pockets. Actually working towards fixing infrastructure as opposed to having a infrastructure week. Belives science, works towards fixing the environment.

I don't consider my self a centrists.

As far as currently working in the fed. Enforcement of laws via warnings if possible. Violence is met with deescalation unless there is a legitimate danger to someone's life most of us could care less about property. Most of my current coworkers are quite a bit left of the current democrat platform.

I'll be more then happy to go as I depth as you guys want in a bit. Currently I have a zoom meeting coming up on covid vaccine training in 5 min.

Nephzinho
Jan 25, 2008






Okay, now do the crowd.

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008

MOM WAS RIGHT
hey i don't doubt you think youve done a good job, but i sincerely doubt those changes were felt by the minorities in your town HTH.

just like how i felt good about all the changes i made to my unit until i realised it didn't stop sexual assault or racism nor decrease the suffering of the countries we've occupied, so i had to fuckin' quit.

can't keep trying to unbreak the system, if it's been rotten from the start.

Wasabi the J fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jan 12, 2021

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018

Melthir posted:

Left of center. Starts working toward utilizing tax money for social benefits as opposed towards funneling money towards people's pockets. Actually working towards fixing infrastructure as opposed to having a infrastructure week. Belives science, works towards fixing the environment.

I don't consider my self a centrists.

As far as currently working in the fed. Enforcement of laws via warnings if possible. Violence is met with deescalation unless there is a legitimate danger to someone's life most of us could care less about property. Most of my current coworkers are quite a bit left of the current democrat platform.

I'll be more then happy to go as I depth as you guys want in a bit. Currently I have a zoom meeting coming up on covid vaccine training in 5 min.

You’re conflating left and liberal in the way most people here use it, hence the confusion. Most right wing and liberal media conflate left and liberal it because it helps both groups, but they are incompatible ideas.

Leftist in the “correct” more academic use implies someone who is opposed to capitalism or maybe at the very least would only accept it with a significant redistribution mechanism. The only left wing group I can think of that has any pull in US electoral politics is the DSA, versus liberalism which is the dominant idea of the Dems and pre Tea Party was also dominant in a more conservative form in the GOP.

brains
May 12, 2004

i think there's a huge, objective difference between federal law enforcement and state/county/local. that's what Melthir is getting at i think; federal LEOs have rigorous training standards, higher professionalism, and standards of accountability*, versus local cops where literally anything goes. the federal law enforcement system, while hardly perfect, is definitely the model we should be moving towards for all law enforcement agencies.

*only if the agencies actually enforce it, though, which is a top-down issue.

ded posted:

100 'good cops' join the nice new shiny friendly 2021 police force. 60 of them don't make it through academy because they get sick of dealing with the supreme assholes teaching them + fellow students. 40 of them make it to the force. 20 of them report fellow officers for violations and get put on desk duty or fired. The other 20 shut the gently caress up and collect a paycheck because they realize they can't change poo poo.


Cops being bastards is a fully top down problem. If there is not major institutional change on every level on every single police force in every city this will never change.
this is the big point to make. there are 18,000 law enforcement agencies in this country. it is simply not possible to change the culture and accountability in every single one from the ground up. it has to come from top down. if you want to reform the police in your area, you need to take over the local government/council and start pushing reforms through law and policy, coupled with purges of the ranks. then, and only then, do you build the agencies back up with standards of conduct, accountability, and training. if you want to do it nationwide, laws have to be passed to take away control from local governments and shift it to federal oversight.

we saw the same thing in the armed forces in the 70s-80s: rampant crime, lack of discipline, and poor morale coupled with lax enforcement. it took a generational change from the top of military leadership and congressional oversight to push a new culture of professionalism and moral standards to get the military out of that, and they still struggle with it today despite a monumental effort. but if you ask army vets from back then to compare to the army of the 90s and today, they'll tell you it's night and day in terms of professionalism and conduct in the average soldier.

Melthir
Dec 29, 2009

I need to go scrap some money together cause my avatar is just sad.

SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

You’re conflating left and liberal in the way most people here use it, hence the confusion. Most right wing and liberal media conflate left and liberal it because it helps both groups, but they are incompatible ideas.

Leftist in the “correct” more academic use implies someone who is opposed to capitalism or maybe at the very least would only accept it with a significant redistribution mechanism. The only left wing group I can think of that has any pull in US electoral politics is the DSA, versus liberalism which is the dominant idea of the Dems and pre Tea Party was also dominant in a more conservative form in the GOP.

Maybe. I'm not the most politically savvy dude out there term wise. I'll put it at this most of the guys I've worked with are way more at home with the DSA then the democrats. I can't speak for the entirety of the CG but shits been changing and for the better at my last three duty stations.

The downside of that is the extremists Q idiots have been doubling down super hard core as they are getting more rare and increasingly more ridiculed for their beliefs. Quite often to the point where they get out which to me is a net good thing.

Melthir fucked around with this message at 00:45 on Jan 13, 2021

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!
So, I wrote a whole meandering post about what the underlying issue is, but it turned into a mess, so I'll just post the main thrust.

The type of change people are looking for cannot happen through external pressures alone. You have to have people inside the organization receptive to it. This is true for all large institutions; not just law enforcement. And by dismissing the idea of leftists joining law enforcement because "what's the point," you're necessarily hamstringing the entire process of obtaining that goal. The fact that it is inherently more difficult to do because of the uniquely lovely nature of law enforcement in the US doesn't negate this fact.

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
Or, hear me out, we just get rid of the existing forms of policing and start over

AlternateNu
May 5, 2005

ドーナツダメ!

UP THE BUM NO BABY posted:

Or, hear me out, we just get rid of the existing forms of policing and start over

Ok. How do we do that?

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
Abolition

Here's a link with some helpful info on police abolition
http://criticalresistance.org/abolish-policing/

UP THE BUM NO BABY fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Jan 12, 2021

Doc Hawkins
Jun 15, 2010

Dashing? But I'm not even moving!


The End of Policing is a short, practical read. each chapter is on a particular social issue addressed these days with policing, and filled with real existing places where those issues are being addressed without it

combining them all any one place is going to be a big fight, and i think big companies will try to start selling a new wave of "smart city/policing" tech based on the "successes" of Xinjiang. they'll talk about avoiding violence, stopping "anarchists" before they take action, more advanced and ubiquitous forms of probation for "at risk groups."

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
Some Philly attendees
https://twitter.com/Trashista/status/1349143018755002368?s=19

SMEGMA_MAIL
May 4, 2018
End of policing was a good book.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

https://twitter.com/sarahdwire/status/1349136305511403520

https://twitter.com/sarahdwire/status/1349149633608622083

Toshokan
Apr 11, 2008

TO THE POSTER THAT DARES
TO DEBATE THIS WARM GALE
BEWARE OF FOUL WEATHER
TOWARD MADNESS, SET SAIL

Toshokan posted:

So that means that anyone who would use…a folding stock on an AK, piston AR, or any other gun…is a Nazi?

I like how Congress is clutching pearls about what happened to these cops when many of their fellow officers literally let the rioters in and we didn't see this level of concern for all the BLM protesters in the past year who were seriously injured by police.

ruddiger
Jun 3, 2004

His hat abbreviation is for the Chicago Fire Dept so expect Police/Firefighter relations to... heat up. :heysexy:

https://twitter.com/RawStory/status...%5Es1_&ref_url=

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost
If a Chicago fire department hat guy used a fire extinguisher to kill a cop, just wtf.

brains posted:

i think there's a huge, objective difference between federal law enforcement and state/county/local. that's what Melthir is getting at i think; federal LEOs have rigorous training standards, higher professionalism, and standards of accountability*, versus local cops where literally anything goes.

ICE and CBP are federal LE. I get that they have more rigor than a local town that has literally five cops, but still.

brains
May 12, 2004

mlmp08 posted:

ICE and CBP are federal LE. I get that they have more rigor than a local town that has literally five cops, but still.

that has more to do with the fact that congress and SCOTUS are 100% ok with them completely suspending constitutional rights at "the border" and then some, and also they are all loving bastards.

UP THE BUM NO BABY
Sep 1, 2011

by Hand Knit
https://twitter.com/jbenmenachem/status/1349417053959184390?s=19

PookBear
Nov 1, 2008

I'd love to know how many people that have posted here/tfr in the past were there

Stravag
Jun 7, 2009

Probably pcos bill

Wasabi the J
Jan 23, 2008

MOM WAS RIGHT
Didn't martello walk for the murder he did?

Mr. Nice!
Oct 13, 2005

c-spam cannot afford



Wasabi the J posted:

Didn't martello walk for the murder he did?

Yup. :smith:

TCD
Nov 13, 2002

Every step, a fucking adventure.

PookBear posted:

I'd love to know how many people that have posted here/tfr in the past were there

My wife found an acquaintance who used to do fed background investigations / former coastie that made a FB post about doing a MAGA thing and flying to DC.

She deleted the post on the night of the 6th. We haven't seen her in any of the videos inside the capital or wanted pics yet.

Adbot
ADBOT LOVES YOU

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004

Prepare for my priapic projectile's exalted penetration
Nap Ghost
https://twitter.com/cjane87/status/1349527536749969414?s=21

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • Post
  • Reply