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catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Did he knee her in the face in panel 4?

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catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

For a moment I thought Ink Mom's hair was fading into ink swirls, but until I realised it was just her collar I thought that was a neat touch.

That last panel is real bad though (not that the others are much better). It's just a mess.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Toalpaz posted:

I think dnd alignment is okay for giving very new players a hint about how to roleplay if they're lost. Some structure is good for imagining how people would react 'in character'. I don't think it matters much or should matter much in normal play after people's introduction to the system and character creation, but that being said if you and your friends are into it an 'alignment matters' campaign would be fun.

What I don't get with mookie is the disconnect between 'LG has a moral good and are incorruptible and will always do good' and the implication being that rougish CG characters are corruptible. My understanding is that CG characters just do good as they see fit, not that they're especially on the fence about doing good or willing to do bad.

Yeah, I don't have an issue with D&D alignment (I will admit, I never moved on from 3e so I am unfamiliar with how 4e and 5e handle things), because it's supposed to be a guide to help with roleplaying, and it's explicitly noted (in the 3e books at least) that there is lots of variation from within, and they had an example of a LG character who might occasionally give in to temptation and steal something small and unaccompanied, but that doesn't change their overall alignment. You can, in fact, be good and have some selfish tendencies, or lawful with a mischievous bent. This does fall apart a little with mechanical representation, such as Detect Good/Evil spells where the mechanics make a stricter reading more attractive, and frankly I'd probably change that so it's more for dealing with things like outsiders, who are explicitly semi-physical personifications of their alignments, for all the reasons stated. On occasion I find myself wondering if they shouldn't have stuck with just the law-chaos axis, but as we saw with BD&D, that tends to just end up with "lawful" meaning "good" and "chaotic" "evil".

The "paladin trap" is, I feel, more of a failure to truly understand the concept of "Lawful Good". Here we see people who focus so much on the "law" aspect (follow these rules or else, no backing down, no compromises) that they forget about, you know, the "good" aspect (kindness, understanding, and forgiveness) that's supposed to balance it out and allow for a more nuanced view of the situation. This, I feel, ends up at the root of the Lawful Stupid phenomenon, where the paladin player is primed to view things through a lens of law primarily since that's generally what the (bad) DM will wield as a club against them. Worse, many of those bad DMs will, after running a paladin trap, argue that "well, if only you played better you'd have found a secret option that was actually perfect" which is a poo poo cop-out for screwing over those players and works to put the blame on them rather than the DMs who don't truly understand what they're doing.

Naturally, we see Mookie fall into this exact trap with the Elf War. Of course Danica is good, of course she doesn't need to compromise any of her ideals, because if you're really, truly good you can find the secret dialogue option that lets you sidestep the entire issue.

It's also an indictment of Mookie's understanding of a paladin in general. He sees the paladin as a "knight in shining armour," but fails to register that a paladin is supposed to have decent charisma (Hell, 1e had them require 17 Cha!). A paladin isn't supposed to just do good by going around slaying monsters, they're supposed to also be diplomats, orators, preachers and wordsmiths. They are supposed to be uniters, who appeal to the commonality in everybody, who bring people together for a common good. When a paladin finally leaves a town, they haven't just slain a dragon or what have you, they have helped solve problems, smooth over troubles and long-standing grudges, and finally inspired the community to be better, to be more compassionate, to reach a hand out to those less fortunate and to show that together they don't need to fear the night. Danica doesn't do that, and it is absolutely why Elf Wars ends on a wet fart. She helped a handful of people, but despite us being told that she did, we can see she didn't leave the world a better place.

God, I hope this is as understandable and not stupid as I think it is.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

It kinda felt like this was a Dr. Brightman arc, she seemed kinda more important and related to the story than Danica did. And that's not bad, a story arc about one of the side characters is generally a good thing, but naturally the entire thing was muddled and... poorly developed.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The Little Death posted:

Ok I promise to give DD the RRR treatment one star power is over. If only to refresh ourselves while Mookie either find new inspiration for legacy or it peters out.

You know, I'm a little horrified at this prospect because I never read DD or the mock thread (I did have a friend who was a big DD fan though, which is why curiosity brought me here), so beyond what people have posted about in here, I have absolutely no idea what to expect. Especially since comparing what I've seen of Legacy to what I've seen of DD, they don't feel like the same setting or franchise at all.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Wha...? "Doing it her way" meaning...? Having superpowers and punching the poo poo out of the bad guys? I mean, it's effective but... until she showed up it was completely out of the question. "If I can do it, so can you" doesn't work when you have superpowers and they don't. What a bizarre comic.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

I gotta admit, I'm kinda curious what it'd be like to play D&D with Mookie.

I mean, probably insufferable, but still. His approach to... everything seems like it'd make for a somewhat bizarre event.

... I mean as a fellow player, I would not want to play with him as the DM, Jesus.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Uncanny Valley posted:

Afraid not, I never followed anything Pibgorn.

You lucky bastard.

Edit: whoops

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The dude having underwear and the lady not is actually the stupidest thing in this "story" arc. Like... why. You've already drawn schlongs, just do it.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

I can... kinda see where he's coming from, but again it's a rough guide, and if we're applying that onto him, his willingness to buck command structures giving unjust orders (rather than reforming them, he reformed his CO's face) and his, uh...

Rotten Red Rod posted:

Apparently the actions of a lawful good paladin include force feeding a demon their own eyeball or beating its head in with its own leg

yeah, definitely points to a chaotic bent. At best, I'd say NG-CG. But given his somewhat monomaniacal focus on demon-slaying, I'd personally lean to CN. Just fighting evil doesn't make you good, after all.

I mentioned it before, but man, his views on "Lawful Good" and his views on paladins are weird and more based on how a bad DM would apply the rules in a bizarre, haphazard way rather than any actual thought and introspection on what they mean. Like, I understand it sucks to critically examine yourself and your belief structures, but I have a hard time imagining not doing it, ever.

Besides, Doomslayer's a berserker in the most classical sense, even down to getting a boost by getting hosed up on drugs. What do you think's in a berserk pack, Mookie? A bottle of holy water and some communion wafers?

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Heliotrope posted:

Eh, honestly this is a D&D Alignment issue thing. Personally I feel like who and why you're fighting is a more important element of your character then how you're fighting.

That's more my criticising class choice than an alignment issue, but yeah.

Rotten Red Rod posted:

D&D alignments are a nerd brain infection that needs to be purged

As I said, I think it works in the context of the game because it's a guide for roleplaying, but even there it has its limitations (often quite severe). Applying it outside of there, well... I expect it's a step in the development of a person's understanding the world, ethics, and morality. Most people (I would hope!) who apply the alignment grid to real life, should eventually realise that even 9 options is still limited, and grow beyond that. But... that requires introspection, and at least a bit of critical thinking. It's not a child's view on morality, but it's certainly not a fully developed world-view, if that makes sense? But yeah, ultimately, vv this

Invisible Clergy posted:

Oh, yeah, definitely. I was more drawing attention to the fact that even by his own chosen parameters of deeandee bullshit, his point doesn't make any sense than advocating that alignment is a good and cool thing to do if that was unclear

Even within the confines of D&D, it's a stretch.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Who What Now posted:

How do you put a coin in a g-string?

Very carefully.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?


Why would you do this to this thread, you monster. Joe Slowboat speaks for me here:

Joe Slowboat posted:

How was that worse than I remembered, when I already remembered it as an atrocity? I wasn't ready. And I had definitely forgotten it was supposed to be in verse.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

You know, there could have been a fun little The Yattering and Jack type story here where the evil vine things are trying to corrupt and tempt a completely oblivious Snout and get more and more frustrated as he just goes about his... whatever he's doing. Of course, that'd require a good sense of dark comedy and timing, and I've not really seen any evidence of either.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

To be fair, one of the best moments in this comic has been an rear end in a top hat tree giving Snout the bird, so I'm willing to let it slide.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The Little Death posted:



Again, no change to heal. Jacob knows this and is smug about it. He does want greg to die.

... She was mind-controlled, she doesn't even remember it. This is the exact Bad DM bullshit he complains about with paladin traps. poo poo, I've definitely seen people complaining about their paladin getting mind-controlled then losing their powers when the villain/DM has them murder an orphanage or whatever the gently caress, and you know what? They were always right to complain. That's bullshit.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Ague Proof posted:

What do people who haven't read the comic before think so far?

Here and there I can see bits of why people might have liked it, looking at it from the start I can see why my friend got into it if not why they kept it up, but man is it poorly put together, and seems to have pretty much every flaw of every bad early-2000s webcomic.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Boy, that made a hard turn into being wildly and weirdly sex-negative, real fast.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

loving yikes.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

You know, I kinda expected DD to be a slow burn, slowly adding the odious things people talk about, and it seemed like that was the direction it was going, but this arc certainly amped it up.

I was also thinking it wouldn't be awful for Snout to be baffled and confused by the whole thing and not know what to make of it, but I should have known that even if Mookie did go that direction, it'd be handled so poorly. I'm not sure why Snout thinks any of them could be alive either.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Like I said, I expected a slow ramp up in awfulness, but this story arc just slammed on the accelerator. It has all the previous issues of the comic, but also tosses on like, a dozen new issues at the same time. Certainly wasn't expecting an Oedipus Complex, that's for sure.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

loving YIKES.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

I'm still astonished at how it got so gross, so fast. I don't think my "loving yikes" can get big enough for this.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Ick.

Has there been any indication that Dirk was made up of a bunch of different things? I always thought he was just wearing like, a big furry skin or something.

That's some not completely awful anime body horror, completely ruined by a boring, lovely angle. If I wasn't grossed out by the misogyny, I'd be yawning.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The Little Death posted:

Not until this point. That was definitely a retcon when he decided what an Acibek was.

This is all for you catlord. You and all the other first time Deeganers.


Hope you're enjoying it ☺️

I'm genuinely considering tapping out, this poo poo is so incredibly hosed up, but there's a part of me that wants to see this slow-motion trainwreck to it's bitter end.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Huh. That wasn't an awful fight. I mean, there are actual stakes, Greg can't just show them the truth or whatever and vaporise them, it has ups and downs and reversals as any good fight scene should, and while he is suddenly getting new powers from his rear end, he has to figure out how to actually use them effectively. Of course, it's not good or anything, some of the powers used could have been introduced earlier as minor entertainments, especially the Bounce spell, so them being used offensively has more resonance, the rules of magic are so off the cuff that the working out what to do with what he has doesn't really have the impact it should, and of loving course some rando shows up to deus ex machina the ending, but it is definitely a step up from every other one we've seen.

Unfortunately that's not really a compliment.

The Little Death posted:

I love that these chaos followers hate people who follow the rules. It's just such a literal interpretation of chaos worship.

I would be fascinated to hear Mookie's thoughts on Elric and Moorcock in general.

The Little Death posted:



I know it's a bit, but the dialogue between Greg and Pam is so terrible and cheesy. Here's where we also establish that Dominic can just reach into people's minds and send them information.



Ok, so the first one is kinda dumb but amuses me a little, so I'll let that slide, but that last panel in the second strip, what's going on there? Is that... Dominic possessing Greg to reassure Pam and we're seeing Dominic just to let us know what's going on? In that case, what is Pam seeing and reacting to? Shouldn't she still be seeing Greg, so that statement comes out of nowhere for her? Unless she is seeing Dominic, in which case based on the first strip, I can only assume that Dominic just up and set up shop in Pam's head which... I really feel like that should be something you ask permission to do first, generally. The Deegan clan doesn't really understand boundaries, do they?

Also, did Mookie get into superhero comics here? Because those Chosen are cape characters, not even trying to hide the spandex.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The Little Death posted:

Honestly that fight would have been fine to me had it not had the element of Dominic puppeteering Greg the whole time. Even if there was some weird mindscape thing where Greg was talking with himself! Anything but Dominic being the saviour.

I don't necessarily have an issue with him at the beginning, but he absolutely should have been knocked out of Greg's head earlier. It could have even been a whole thing where while Dominic is there he's getting Greg powerups and is able to hold his own, power-wise, but then dramatically Dominic is jarred loose and Greg has to use what he's already got in new ways. There's almost a sense of this at the end of the fight, but if that was how we were supposed to interpret that final sequence then it was barely developed at all. It's interesting the number of little tweaks that could be done that could massively improve the story and characters, that just weren't considered.

The Little Death posted:

I'm fairly certain Mookie mentioned in a now gone blogpost that he was playing city of heroes at this time, which timeline-wise would line up as it was released in 2004. Snowsong is a straight up superhero in spandex when she comes back, so tha was definitely the inspiration he was working from.

How... blatant.

PoptartsNinja posted:

Looks like it's Luke Goss.





loving :lol:

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The Little Death posted:

But choosing to do this, to make his self insert the character that transcends both of the forces he set up in this conflict through no other way than just having a character announce it is ridiculously fanfiction. Like, come on.

To be honest, I actually kinda doubt that Mookie ever read Moorcock, but what he's written is like Elric fanfiction by someone who doesn't understand the series and wonders why it ended the way it did. Why wouldn't he just renounce Arioch and become a Lord of Balance and rescue Cymoril and get a happy ending, and Moonglum and Zarozinia can get married and, and, and?

The Little Death posted:

I don't know what Donovan is supposed to do in this situation but whatever. This moment between Luna and Miranda isn't bad on its own but it I just can't muster any excitement for it because it doesn't feel earned in any way. In other comic this would be a good summation of a relationship that these two built, but as is it just more powers being loaded up onto Mookie's waifu Luna is allowed to use magic offensively in this arc though so she's at least not totally useless.

There's supposed to have been character development but Mookie just never bothered to actually do it and assumed we'd fill in the gaps. I think it's part of the reason the bit between her and Nimmel falls flat (but certainly not all the reason!), we've never really seen her heal because her vulnerability is used to explore (if such a term can be used here) Dominic's character rather than hers, so the sequence feels unearned.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

The Little Death posted:

This is now Chapter 49: Dreamfinder btw.

Chapter 49??? What the gently caress is in each chapter? How long, on average, are they? I have no idea how we can possibly be at chapter 49, we've had like, five events the entire comic.

Edit: vv Oh, that doesn't make any sense but it makes way more sense than this alone being on 49 chapters.

Wait, there are 45 chapters of the original? Storm of Souls is like, 12? Oh, gently caress me.

catlord fucked around with this message at 01:09 on Oct 6, 2020

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Hostile V posted:

2: that said "I see you've made a new friend" is an absolute power move quip in response to your son building a flesh golem and I love the way Dad Deegan manages to just deliver it straight without a stupid lampshade on it.

Yeah, that amused me too. Guess a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Also, Celesto got "disintegrated" what, three, four times that fight? Come the gently caress on.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

You know, thinking about it, this Serk dude is way more of a villainous foil than Celesto. This dude has suddenly been established to be behind just about everything that's happened so far, if the Storm of Souls took place after this, it'd feel weird if Serk wasn't the Champion of Chaos. Celesto met them once, but this dude has apparently been a thorn in their side for ages now.

Speaking of the Storm of Souls, Celesto was the Chapion of Chaos and Dominic was the Champion of Balance. Did the forces of Law just... gently caress off? What were they doing and why didn't they have a Champion of their own? Shouldn't that have been a big three-way fight?

I don't even know what to say about this Legacy page.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Twelve by Pies posted:

The Champion of Law was in it, but she was so barely involved it's no surprise if you missed it. She was the leaf dryad from the first story arc who existed just to give Dominic a leaf cape while he fought Celesto.

Of loving course. Amazing. Don't know what I expected.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?



I don't think it's a stretch at all to say that literally every single person in this thread could write a better story. At every chance, Dominic Deegan takes the stupidest possible approach to the story. Even if we forced ourselves to keep somewhat close to the original, people have shown again and again that there are absolutely ways to take that germ of an idea and make something actually interesting with it.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Huh. I don't hate that page. I wonder where he ripped it off from.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Joe Slowboat posted:

This beat is common in a lot of visual media; itís immediately comprehensible and makes you feel invested in the characters because you immediately sympathize with the experience. I mean, usually. In this context it makes me feel nothing because I want them to stare up into the sky until they drown like chickens, but, if this page were much earlier in the comic and the characters werenít an abusive corpsedaughterwife and Snout, it would be mildly compelling.

Oh, I'm not sympathising, I'm talking entirely visuals. I like the way the last panel looks more specifically, and the contrast to the one immediately before it, it's a nice stylisation of rain that I'm not sure I've seen before but I am pretty sure it has been done before and very well. If we're lucky the river will rise and wash away Snout and all his sins.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Rotten Red Rod posted:

It's a carbon copy of Sin City



Although Mookie probably did the rain with a filter because lazy

Ah, it's obvious now that you point it out (in my defence, I've never read Sin City).

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

I don't know why now, but I just wanted to say I loving hate Snout's loving overalls. It's so loving bad, I can only assume Arduak(?) was pranking him when he bought them.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Rotten Red Rod posted:

Also, apparently "Acibek" is a thing from the original comic? Anyone who knows it better than I do want to comment?

It was the weird robot bullshit from Storm of Souls. They're... supposed to be about Law or something? Except the one that realised Balance was the true good? I remember he retconned the spriggan dude to be one and I was baffled.

catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?

Cloacamazing! posted:

Wow. Plot progression. Corpse Bride now has a shirt that looks even worse than the clothes Snout usually wears. Still no pants or shoes, but hey, it's one third of an outfit.

Hey, ponchos are cool :mad:

Of course, generally with other clothes, and you know, Snout's previously been shown to be able to sew up actual clothes, so way to half-rear end it, buddy.

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catlord
Mar 22, 2009

What's on your mind, Axa?


I can only assume that last one has something to do with the infamous bit (loving ew...), so I'm gonna comment on this one.

What the gently caress? Unless I missed something, we never saw the full outfit, mostly just her dead as gently caress and largely off-panel. Which makes the actual words there way loving weirder. He makes it sound like Szark was fantasizing about her, rather than brutally murdering her to steal her man over her dead body.

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