|
Dagen H posted:6mm, 6-cylinder intake spacer x2 Yeah, considering how insane this is likely to be, I would think he'd like to be able to consider replacement of any coupler bits without taking the engines down to bare intakes. Disgruntled Bovine posted:This is the sort of project that puts the I in AI. Glorious. I mean, the Gigahorse had to come from somewhere 
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 03:19
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 07:32 |
|
|
Having dealt with them in an engine testing environment... giubos are all well and good, but big torque pulses kill them. Maybe keep a flywheel or flexplate or something between the front engine and the giubo to smooth things out, though honestly a V6 should be OK. (we were testing little air cooled V-twins and killed giubos every so often)
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 04:25
|
|
|
This is going to be amazing.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 04:34
|
|
|
I am 110% here for this. That is going to be a very impressive yacht.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 04:57
|
|
|
Powershift posted:I might be able to put a heavy metal plate under the motor mounts against the block on the front engine and bolt them into where the A/C compressor would mount on the rear, then find somewhere up top to tie together to box it in. Are there threaded holes for lift points on the top of the engine? Chevy loved to do that so I'm assuming Ford does too. You could brace from there to tie the shortblocks together (with an adjustable torque-strut kind of thing in between), if so. Seat Safety Switch fucked around with this message at 06:07 on Jul 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 06:05
|
|
|
"Oh cool, he's throwing in a V6 for better power and much better fuel economy, but why two of..."  Fived and starred, holy gently caress. Edit: Powershift posted:Meet the two lumps, Larry and Barry. I like you. A lot. bolind fucked around with this message at 12:22 on Jul 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 10:25
|
|
|
Seat Safety Switch posted:Are there threaded holes for lift points on the top of the engine? Chevy loved to do that so I'm assuming Ford does too. You could brace from there to tie the shortblocks together (with an adjustable torque-strut kind of thing in between), if so. There's nothing. I can't even see where the factory torque strut would have gone through. The front timing covers are silky smooth. There are a couple nubs up top where there would have been an upper engine mount for some applications but they aren't drilled or threaded. The valve cover bolts on both engines are tiny so that's out too. There are a lot of little nubs all over the place that would have been drilled and threaded for different applications i might be able to use and the factory torque rod had to mount somewhere. I still have to pull the itty bitty baby power steering pump off the rear motor, and it seems to be fairly rigidly mounted in the valley, so i might be able to make a gussetted Z-shaped plate that goes from power steering pump holes to the bell housing bolts on the other. I can't get over how small and simple these little fuckers are. Like, once the water pump is off and the water returns shortened, it's pretty much 20 inches dead on.   I'm a little concerned that the one engine is a lot higher mileage than i was told, but the other one is clean clean clean. It's going to be a lot of extra work, but once i get a trans and ECU and everything i'm going to bolt them each up, get them running and compression test them before i go further with them. They also both still have the old oil in, so i should be able to see glitter if something has gone wrong.   It's hilarious looking at the aston DB9 stuff how it exactly the same, there's just more.   Intake manifold gaskets for an aston are $350, for the Freestyle they're $9 and they're pretty much the same thing. $20/piece Db9 exhaust manifold gasket  $5/pair freestyle exhaust manifold gasket.  The 04 DB9 was only 444hp@6000RPM and 420ftlbs(nice)@5000rpm. The freestyle was 203hp@5700rpm and 207ftlbs@4500rpm. Doubled is 406hp and 414ft/lbs driving 2 alternators, 2 water pumps, 2 power steering pumps, 2 A/C compressors Powershift fucked around with this message at 14:20 on Jul 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 14:18
|
|
|
This is truly one of the most insane projects I've ever seen. And that's a good thing!
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 14:31
|
|
|
A lesser man would have probably thought "I wonder how much a used 6.2 or V10 from a Super Duty costs?" But "I'll just make my own V12" is proper nuts. I wish you the best of luck. Make sure that water pump has a metal impeller, I know quite a few duratecs with that cam driven pump had plastic ones that would dissolve. It's too bad most of the SHO V8's grenaded themselves. It's basically a 2.5L duratec with 2 more cylinders slapped on. Could have had a 6.8L V16.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 16:33
|
|
|
Mental Hospitality posted:A lesser man would have probably thought "I wonder how much a used 6.2 or V10 from a Super Duty costs?" SHO V8s show up in the pick-n-pulls here, but it's probably BECAUSE they grenaded themselves. I did actually look at the lincoln LS 3.9 V8 which is a Jaaaaaaaaaaag AJ but all the LSes that show up at the pick-n-pull or on kijiji listed for parts are low mileage V8s for some strange reason  Other things i looked at and why i was steered away: gas: 2 x 3.7: $1000+/engine, factory ECU unusable, 6R80 requires $1500 trans controller 1 x LS truck engine: $2k+ engine, good power/economy, crossbreeding, boooooooooooring 1 x JDM 2JZ-GTE + trans: $3kish all in, tons of support, good power, only gets 20mpg in lighter flowier aristo. 1 x 1GZ-FE V12 + trans: $3ishk all in,:okay power, okay support, very limited parts availability, ghetto stepper motor throttle bodies means a lot more custom tuning work. 2 x VG30DETT+trans: $5kish all in, people have enough trouble keeping 1 running. 1 x Ford 5.0: $5k+ engine, good power/economy, great support/documentation, $1.5k harness+ECU needed 1 x Ford 6.2: $4k+ engine, ^^^^^ 1 x BMW M73 V12: meh power, meh economy, BMW uhh... "character" 1 x Ford 6.8 V10: boat anchor for boat anchor. Diesel: 2 x VW 2.0 TD: length would put me at the rad support, would need narrow radiator and would need to hack some stuff up. Still only 200ishhp/450ish ft/lbs combined. Limited RWD transmissions 1 x 7.3 powerstroke: would have to hack a bunch of stuff, or put the engine to far forward 1 x 6.0 powerstroke: Cheap but lol 1 x 5.9 cummins: heavy, available engines are ragged, large transmission options would need extensive firewall mods 1 x VW V10 TDI: meh, nuf said. 1 x Detroit 8V71+ trans: $1500. 1500kg, 1500 L/100km. 1 x Isuzu NPR 5.2: meh power, meh economy, heavy, expensive 1 x cat C6.6: Interesting but heavy 1 x Navistar DT466: Cheap, powerful, lots of cutting, probably stuff sticking out of the hood, very heavy, questionable mileage. 1 x Cummins 4BT: prices going crazy, not much power Electric: Siamese warp 9s: Battery cost Tesla drivetrain: Battery cost Chinese motors and batteries off alibaba: car weight, battery cost Other: Nuclear: Big government  Sail: low bridges and stop lights Pedal power: I'm horribly out of shape Horses: poop Dogs: also poop Flywheel: Maybe next time. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) Why i settled on these: Simple solid timing system $200/engine Lightweight Tons of support from dudes sticking them in locosts 5R55S RWD trans that came bolted to one Very short $200/engine remote water pump Future tuning options Aston martin pedigree Powershift fucked around with this message at 17:07 on Jul 5, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 17:05
|
|
|
How wedged in the front are these going to be? Is the engine bay big enough to not have to have the radiator off to the side and stuff? *edit: I was too excited to read properly it seems: quote:they'll only be 6-10 inches longer than the 460 and i shouldn't have to cut anything.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 17:06
|
|
|
Olympic Mathlete posted:How wedged in the front are these going to be? Is the engine bay big enough to not have to have the radiator off to the side and stuff? Not at all. The rear engine without accessories is going to be under 20 inches, The valve covers should be separated by a sliver. The front engine with accessories should only be about 22 inches. If i can snug them up against the firewall without any major issues, the front of the front motor should actually be further back than the front of the 460 is right now. They're also shorter height wise, and narrower width wise than the bare 460. If i have to move them forward for trans or crossmember clearance, I can still move the radiator forward 2-3 inches without modifying anything but the rad bracket.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 17:11
|
|
|
djhaloeight posted:Check out Cleetus Mcfarland's Cummins swapped 1965 Ford Galaxie for just that, plus nitrous. He just raced Finnegan's original Roadkill Cummins swapped Ramptruck the other day. The flames coming out of the stack under nitrous were impressive. It was also pretty dang fast. Heck, Finnegan's ramp truck was way faster than it had any right to be (15.3 on 22 lbs. as I recall.) On the Lincoln V12 (heh, actually put a Lincoln flathead V12 in it!), I think you're going to have to clock the two V6s a little apart to make it sound like a proper V12 rather than one big V6. 60-degrees between #1 TDC should be right, if they are even-fire (120-degrees between firing events) engines. I think that's right, anyway. edit: also, this is fantastic any way you slice it.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 17:21
|
|
|
Ooooooohhhh lord.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 17:26
|
|
|
Are you planning on offsetting them in the sense of crank timing? IE: Are you going to have them both TDC when you put them together or offset them 90-180? Or..? I have no idea which would be the best way to go, just asking. Powershift posted:I was initially thinking flex disk, but i don't know if i'll have the space between the engines for it, so i think i'll be using a jaw coupler with one side keyed to the crank on the rear engine and drilled to bolt onto the crank of the front. It doesn't sound like you are leaning this way, but to be clear you do not want to go with these. They are not designed for anything like this, especially varying torque, unless you go stupid large. Fine for electric motors, even big ones, not a gas engine. I like your guibo plan. I also agree a flywheel of some sort between them would not be a bad idea.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 18:51
|
|
|
How are the two engines connected in the Aston? If the V12 is just two of these V6s literally bolted together, Can you not use the same coupling used to join the cranks on them together? What am I overlooking?
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 19:18
|
|
|
I'm pretty sure the Aston at least has a bespoke block and crank.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 19:22
|
|
|
Well then it's simple. Just JB Weld the blocks together.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 19:45
|
|
|
wesleywillis posted:How are the two engines connected in the Aston? If the V12 is just two of these V6s literally bolted together, Can you not use the same coupling used to join the cranks on them together? They got all kinds of fancy machines at aston. Somehow going from this  to this  costs $25,000.   This just pisses me off that fomoco never put that V12 in a lincoln Mark car. QuarkMartial posted:Well then it's simple. Just JB Weld the blocks together. I've actually thought a lot about this(surprise), but you could theoretically, with a machine large enough, saw the front off one engine, and the back off the other, leaving an extra 1/4 inch and friction weld the two blocks then machine off the stuff that squirts out. You could probably do the same with the cams if they're solid and maybe even the crank if you're crazy or if it's just for static art. slidebite posted:Are you planning on offsetting them in the sense of crank timing? IE: Are you going to have them both TDC when you put them together or offset them 90-180? Or..? Yeah, the ones i found on acklands were either good for power or RPM but not both except for the ones with $400 brass spiders. As for timing, i'll probably try to match the Aston V12. That leaves me 2 points of tuning, the length of the headers going into the 2>1, and i was thinking an adjustable trombone style chamber to tune out drone.  They did put a mantrans in these cars, so what i could do is Front crank > junkyard flywheel 1/2 inch $50- > Junkyard W124 driveshaft yoke welded to a plate and balanced by a machine shop 1 inch $50-200 > New W124 flex disc 1 inch $35 > New SWAG W124 driveshaft damper 1 inch $95 > Junkyard T722 output yoke bored and keyed to the crank. 0-1 inch$50-200 That gives me flex between the cranks that i hopefully won't need, vibration isolation of the cranks, and harmonic balancing of the rear engine without needing to modify a harmonic balancer which is known to fly apart even unmodified. All in $300-$500 and 3.5-4 inches.(insert your mom joke) If i need more distance it can be added between the flywheel and flex disc. I really do appreciate the input. I'm just an idiot with a dream, so this is definitely going to be a team effort. Also, i found this at a used poo poo store, and i think it's my bible.  It includes all sorts of soul soothing tales like what's inside a C6.  And what chryslers look like  Really makes you think. Where did chryslers even come from?
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:06
|
|
|
My dad had one of those Motor's manuals ('73, I think), and I constantly pored over those floating dismembered front ends.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:32
|
|
|
This video says the Aston uses the same cam profiles as the Duratec. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E54Nyfc_yvw
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:40
|
|
|
I'm guessing "2 v6s bolted together" is more like two molds being modified and bolted together to make a single v12 mold.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:41
|
|
|
Yeah, Aston Martin in that era had at least double the engineering budget i do.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:47
|
|
|
DIY V12 is absolutely peak AI. 5'd and bookmarked
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:48
|
|
|
jamal posted:I'm guessing "2 v6s bolted together" is more like two molds being modified and bolted together to make a single v12 mold. The Ford GT90 is where that engine originally came from, and it was two of those welded together.
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 21:59
|
|
|
Status update: tranny is being pulled right now. Found a cool junkyard that's gonna let me pull the entire harness from key to engine plugs on monday. By the end of next week i could have one engine running on the bench. The engines have returnless fuel rails. The car has 2 good hard lines from the tank. Should i do 2 external fuel pumps or one external fuel pump to a tee, each to a fuel pressure regulator, or something else? Keeping in mind cost is an issue, my fuel tank pick-up is on the bottom. I worry about both being fed from a single regulator, even though it should in theory be fine. mekilljoydammit posted:The Ford GT90 is where that engine originally came from, and it was two of those welded together. Ford Indigo apparently, too.  Now it makes me even angrier that the Mark VIII died with a 4.6 mod motor
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 22:08
|
|
|
What kind of coupling did these old dragsters use? I imagine they should be able to handle whatever you could throw at them (quad turbos!).
|
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 23:27
|
|
|
Chain couplers, but they only had to last the weekend. e:  The conrod journals in the aston are in pairs, 3/9 and 4/10, 2/8 and 5/11, 1/7 and 6/12. Firing order is 1-7-5-11-3-9-6-12-2-8-4-10. Firing order on the 3.0s are 1-4-2-5-3-6, so Engines A and B, To match the Aston i would want A1-A4-B2-B5-A3-A6-B3-B6-A2-A5-B1-B4 meaning cylinder 3 on engine A and cylinder 1 on engine B should be clocked 360 degrees apart. When engine B is at TDC on the compression stroke on cylinder 1, engine A should be on the exhaust stroke on cylinder 3. Looking for pics of the cranks, i found this and can't stop laughing at it.  I sure hope he figured out why it wasn't coming off. e2:  e3: it seems the Aston has shared crank pins, the 3.0 has split crank pins. Would this be for balance? e4: yeah, it's for dynamic balance and even firing intervals. That being the case i would probably want to match that so i would imagine the second engine could be clocked anywhere as long as it's 30 degrees out from the front engine. I'm too tired to think this out, but i figure i'll get it. e5: lol  Those crazy bastards. https://aston1936.com/2016/04/12/getting-more-from-your-aston-martin-db9-using-an-obdii-code-reader/  quote:Does this give us DIY guys as much information as the Dealers AMDS? I don’t think so. One certain limitation was that I was only seeing six (6) cylinders of information, not twelve (12). As I mentioned there are two (2) PCMs running our DB9s engines (like two separate six (6) cylinder engines that are interwoven). I suspect my approach here is just talking to the primary PCM, and there is no way to switch over to the secondary PCM to learn the specific information only it might know. And of course, who knows if there are even more Aston Martin proprietary codes beyond the standard Ford codes that might hold even more information. Powershift fucked around with this message at 03:49 on Jul 6, 2019 |
|
#
?
Jul 5, 2019 23:56
|
|
|
I'm just an idiot that got pulled in somehow but.... On a real basic level, how do you keep two separate motors timed in sync??
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 04:14
|
|
|
Captain Foo posted:I'm just an idiot that got pulled in somehow but.... On a real basic level, how do you keep two separate motors timed in sync?? They will each be running their own ECU. If i chose megasquirt to run both together as a V12, I would probably have to tune it conservatively to account for a couple degrees of give in the flex coupler. I can't believe what a shitshow the real V12 is. It runs 1 Ford Taurus PCM for each bank, meaning it needs 8 O2 sensors.The owners are just as bad.   https://aston1936.com/2016/07/22/lumpy-idle-misfire-on-an-aston-martin-db9/
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 04:23
|
|
|
The two computers talk to each other at some level. BMW did something similar on their V12s.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 04:25
|
|
|
My little brother’s boss has an ultima gtr with a jag v-12 with custom ITBs. He’s running a single ford v6 ecu with the outputs doubled up to drive everything in pairs. It sounds like an oakey setup but it runs like a scalded cat. Could be something worth thinking about.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 04:46
|
|
|
charliemonster42 posted:My little brother’s boss has an ultima gtr with a jag v-12 with custom ITBs. He’s running a single ford v6 ecu with the outputs doubled up to drive everything in pairs. It sounds like an oakey setup but it runs like a scalded cat. Could be something worth thinking about. Dude..... I wonder if i can clock them the same and just split every signal. Greater chance of mechanical failure, but a lot easier and cheaper. It would reduce strain on the coupling and allow the ECU to cut torque on both engines for shifts reducing strain on the trans.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 04:54
|
|
|
And you can spend the savings on a fuel system with the capacity to run this beast at full load without leaning out. 
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 05:19
|
|
|
Powershift posted:They will each be running their own ECU. If i chose megasquirt to run both together as a V12, I would probably have to tune it conservatively to account for a couple degrees of give in the flex coupler. I guess the answer is... very carefully this project is insane and I love it
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 14:43
|
|
|
Powershift posted:Dude..... You could. It would only use one set of sensors, of course. You’d just need a second set of injector drivers piggy-backed. I say “just” - I don’t know how to do it. On the down side, you’d lose that V12 sound. It would just sound like a 6L V6, presumably.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 15:33
|
|
|
Darchangel posted:You could. It would only use one set of sensors, of course. You’d just need a second set of injector drivers piggy-backed. I say “just” - I don’t know how to do it. Hopefully the extra ~20 inches between the front manifold and rear manifold change that a bit. Look at what unequal length headers do to a subaru. Doing it this way: Pros: 1 ECU 1 dash harness 1 tuner as long as mods are matched front/back. cons: Weaker engine grenades if conditions don't match. Engine without sensors can't give cylinder or bank specific error codes. Can't clock cranks for sound Timing will vary a few degrees on the non-sensor engine Extra time/money spent confirming 2 equally healthy engines. Compression tests, plugs, coils, injectors, although this is all stuff i should do anyways. I could probably compensate for the timing variance by running better gas until i get a proper tune, although 200hp out of 3 liters with 10:1 compression these things aren't tuned to the limit anyways.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 15:46
|
|
|
Darchangel posted:The two computers talk to each other at some level. BMW did something similar on their V12s. Is that the one that they were basically running as "two inline sixes that just happened to share a grankshaft"? Powershift posted:
Holy fuckin poo poo, my dad has that same book. Either that or its the 1973 one that the other goon mentioned he has.
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 16:00
|
|
|
wesleywillis posted:grankshaft lol
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 16:14
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 16, 2024 07:32 |
|
|
You made me look up that BMW V12, and yikes.quote:The M70 has two Motronic 1.7[7] ECUs (one for each cylinder bank). To provide redundancy, the M70 also has two fuel pumps, fuel rails, distributors, mass air flow sensors, crankshaft position sensors, coolant temperature sensors and throttle bodies.[8]
|
|
#
?
Jul 6, 2019 16:23
|
|
