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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:The second movie literally opens with him telling the government of the nation he lives in to gently caress off, it's his poo poo. In that very same movie Tony chooses not to use his failsafes so Rhodes can take War Machine to the government because he thinks he's about to die and doesn't want to leave the world unprotected
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Jul 10, 2019 19:53
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Sanguinia posted:In that very same movie Tony chooses not to use his failsafes so Rhodes can take War Machine to the government because he thinks he's about to die and doesn't want to leave the world unprotected Doesn't Rhodes take it to a complete idiot and fraud who is the actual driving force behind weaponizing Whiplash's anger thus showing that Tony was wrong to do that? I'm seriously asking, I barely remember anything about Iron Man2.
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Jul 10, 2019 21:21
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Doesn't Rhodes take it to a complete idiot and fraud who is the actual driving force behind weaponizing Whiplash's anger thus showing that Tony was wrong to do that? After Rhodes brings the Armor back to base, his superiors contract Hammer to weaponize it because it's one of the old armors with no weapon systems other than the built-in repulsors, and Whiplash does use the opportunity to build a backdoor into War Machine's OS so he can take control of the armor. However, I think it's a rather large overstatement to say that the story portray's Tony's decision to give Rhodes and thus the government the armor as wrong, nor that it vindicate's Tony's rear end in a top hat individualist anti-government attitudes from the beginning. For one thing both Rhodes and his superior officer in the weapon handoff scene are VERY skeptical of Hammer throughout the exchange, their body language radiates contempt for his Used Car Salesman attitude. While they buy every weapon Hammer tries to sell them in the end, all except the Ex-Wife perform properly in the subsequent battle. The government/military isn't perfect and makes mistakes, but they're not completely taken for a ride either. This is pretty consistent with Rhode's portrayal throughout the movies, which serves as a stand-in for government authority up until Infinity War - well-meaning, quick to bristle when patronized, occasionally closed-minded, frequently flawed and sometimes even outright exploited by evil, but ultimately steadfast in it's efforts to protect people. For another, the story makes it clear that even Hammer wasn't aware of Whiplash's hacking of the War Machine armor. This is not to excuse Hammer of course, Pepper makes sure the cops show up to cart him off even while she's using his own engineers to try and track Whiplash to shut the drones down. But it is worth noting that Whiplash in this case served as an X-factor that even Tony didn't account for in all his calculations. He, like the government, assumed Whiplash was dead after the prison explosion, and this in turn leaves both of them vulnerable to him. Which is a general continuation of Whiplash's character ethos throughout the film - he finds success when he is underestimated and ignored by the big powerful capitalists and governments that dismiss him as either a non-entity or a tool to be easily exploited. For a third thing neither Tony as a character nor the narrative ever do anything to chastise Rhodes or the military in general for being sabotaged. Indeed, the story ends on the note of something of a reconciliation between Tony and the government, with him accepting an award alongside Rhodes, who is still in the military and still has the War Machine armor. Tony even arguably goes out of his way to put on a friendly face for the cameras with the same Senator he had no compunction about publicly embarrassing on national TV at the start of the film. Where nobody can hear they still exchange barbs, the relationship between Tony and the government he doesn't completely trust is still an abrasive one, but there has still been a significant change there. This is only reinforced by the fact that Rhodes and the military keep the War Machine (and indeed Rhodes' and the soon-to-be-Iron-Patriot's profile only increases as a government standard bearer), and also the fact that Tony progressively believes more and more in later films that he can't act unilaterally and needs government support to protect the world effectively. Granted, this kind of blows up in his face in Civil War, but that's another effort post. Focusing ONLY on Iron Man 2, I don't think Ton'y decision to at least partially trust The Government is treated as a mistake. (I actually really like Iron Man 2 if you can't tell  )
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Jul 10, 2019 21:59
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Doronin posted:I do wonder how we've managed two full Spider-Man films and three other appearance by Parker (Civil War, Infinity War, Endgame), but it still seems that very little of what they're using is being drawn from the broader scope of Spidey stories. I mean, it's Peter Parker and there still hasn't been a single reference to Oscorp, Otto Octavious, Felicia Hardy, Doc Connors, Gwen Stacy, and on and on... I know they've already been seen in an earlier film or have something in development elsewhere, but how much of the odd story direction is due to Sony's continued ownership of film rights? I'm going to be a jerk here and say I'm really happy that's not a direction they've chosen to go into yet. These movies are at their worst when they just play some comic-book stuff without having any idea how to do their own thing with it. Mysterio is an odd-ball villain who most of my generation are only familiar with from his weird but memorable appearances in the by now many Spiderman videogames (Vulture was the same now that I think of it). With Venom and Spiderverse both doing their own spin on the mainstream Spiderman villains the space is also kinda cluttered at the moment tbh. Since both of those movies are getting sequels, the Marvel Spiderman movies should keep doing their own thing.
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Jul 10, 2019 22:02
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teagone posted:So after sitting on my thoughts for a while, I'm gonna go ahead and say Far From Home is the worst Spider-Man movie for me. What cemented this wasn't the messed up drone stuff, but having Back in Black soundtrack the scene where Peter is putting together a new suit inside Stark's private jet and Happy looking at him all proud and poo poo. That elicits such a strong "oh gently caress off" reaction from me and sours the character well beyond anything bad that TASM2 or Spider-Man 3 did imo. Correct!
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Jul 10, 2019 23:15
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Sanguinia posted:For one thing both Rhodes and his superior officer in the weapon handoff scene are VERY skeptical of Hammer throughout the exchange, their body language radiates contempt for his Used Car Salesman attitude. Yeah but they go along with it. Kinda like Pelosi and Trump's concentration camps. "Oh they're bad, these are bad people" and then do nothing concrete about it. That's the thing about the Iron Man movies (and a bit of Far From Home) to me. They are neoliberal as hell. Great Man accomplishes great things, makes incredibly powerful poo poo, and the movie asks the question "who should control this?" Always framing it as "trust those with noble intentions". Not "why the gently caress would you want to build satellites full of kill drones?" I liked FFH ok but the killer drone poo poo is, quite simply, bad guy tech. And it's played for laughs that it almost kills a teenager.
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Jul 11, 2019 00:17
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Spider-Man: Far From Home: Just Posting About Iron Man
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Jul 11, 2019 00:29
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LifeLynx posted:Tony Stark gave Peter Super Admin rights. Then why did EDITH permit Peter as a valid target for assassination under Beck’s control
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Jul 11, 2019 00:43
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AdmiralViscen posted:Then why did EDITH permit Peter as a valid target for assassination under Beck’s control Because drama.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:04
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AdmiralViscen posted:Then why did EDITH permit Peter as a valid target for assassination under Beck’s control Because Peter—being the inexperienced teenager that he is, not knowing what to do with such power—transferred those admin rights over to Beck on a whim, very easily, mind you, via voice control with no vetting or biometric scanning, or whatever basic bitch security lock lol. EDITH's existence and execution platform is legit just as bad, if not worse, than the Hydra Nazi auto-target gunships from Winter Soldier. One of the worst things FFH does is ensure Peter maintains access to that tech, by showing him gleefully smiling with the EDITH glasses nested on his shirt collar. All that power. Right next to his chest. [edit] Oh wait, I read out of context. But, ehh, whatever. It's this because lol writing: beanieson posted:Because drama. teagone fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 01:05
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Yeah see that’s my point, as a Macguffin they’re simply absurd and don’t follow their own rules from scene to scene
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Jul 11, 2019 01:21
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The entire movie could've worked without EDITH as a macguffin. If Mysterio was just trying to gain public approval and control of SHIELD, the plot would be essentially the same except it wouldn't be about Tony Stark yet again.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:23
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Lurdiak posted:The entire movie could've worked without EDITH as a macguffin. If Mysterio was just trying to gain public approval and control of SHIELD, the plot would be essentially the same except it wouldn't be about Tony Stark yet again.  that would work too but then we’d miss the scene where peter orders a drone strike on that one jerk.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:32
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It seems really straightforward to me: Beck deliberately gave the rights back to Parker after recording his "dying message". His new plan hinged on Parker using EDITH, so of course he'd want to let Parker use EDITH.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:34
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It seems really straightforward to me: Beck deliberately gave the rights back to Parker after recording his "dying message". His new plan hinged on Parker using EDITH, so of course he'd want to let Parker use EDITH.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:54
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Beck had EDITH recording his death, he planned to "die" and EDITH's message about illusions was a pre-programmed lie. Mysterio lives.
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Jul 11, 2019 01:54
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No but seriously the entire point of Spider-Man is "with great power comes great responsibility" and having it be portrayed as a cool and good thing that Tony Stark gave
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Jul 11, 2019 02:15
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Parker is overcome with the weight of responsibility after being given the power.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:17
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Megaman's Jockstrap posted:Yeah but they go along with it. Kinda like Pelosi and Trump's concentration camps. "Oh they're bad, these are bad people" and then do nothing concrete about it. I think maybe you're stretching the analogy well beyond the breaking point there. The two examples are really not comparable, unless you really think that buying a car from a shady dealer trusting that you can avoid being suckered by him is exactly as morally wrong as ignoring a couple of cops shooting an innocent man dead in the street. That said you're not wrong that Iron Man has a lot of neo-liberalism at it's heart, but it's pretty consistent across the trilogy in offering that neoliberalism as an alternative to objectivism and late-stage extremist capitalism, both in terms of it's external antagonists and Tony's internal conflict. Also I would argue that ultimately the Iron Man character arc across the MCU leads to at least a partial rejection of neo-liberalism. In Iron Man 3 Tony is forced to reckon with the complete loss of his powerful technology and rediscovers his heroism through his humanity, both in physical terms and through relationships with ordinary people, which culminates in the destruction of his collection of suits. By getting more in touch with his human side and emotional connections, he begins to reject the notion of ANYONE controlling the power of his tech, including himself, and yet ends on a note that makes clear that he cannot totally abandon the idea that such power IS necessary for security. This leads into Age of Ultron, which sees Tony attempt to move control of his tech beyond either The Government OR himself as the Great Man through the creation of an AI, a substantive rejection of the neoliberal idea of well-intentioned Great Men and powerful Governments working together with good intentions being the only way to responsibly wield power. When this fails, during Civil War he even embraces a psuedo-collectivist approach, once again limiting his technology to his own control because he can't abandon the notion of it's necessity but also attempting to then surrender control of HIMSELF and whether or not ever to use it to the world in general via the United Nations (remember, 117 countries signed the Sokovia Accords, he's not just handing his tech over to SHIELD with this decision). When THAT fails is when he starts to have interest in Peter as a better version of himself, someone who will possibly "get it right," because he's a more moral person. He recognizes that he has gotten it wrong with EVERY ideological approach he's taken to protecting the world. He doesn't even trust HIMSELF with great power anymore, which is why in Infinity War he has (at least ostensibly) retired from Super Heroism and the only Iron Man suit he has left is the nano-machine one. In fact the movie starts off with a conversation with Pepper where he assures her that he only kept that suit for personal protection, to keep HER safe, and that he has no interest in trying to protect the world anymore. Obviously this ends up being untrue, but I don't think he was lying when he said them, merely that his own heroism couldn't allow him to refuse the call when evil came knocking. I think as a character he MEANT it when he said he was done trying to "Armor the world." This in turn leads to Tony's ultimate ideological conflict when he fights Thanos, because all of Tony's other ideological approaches to the use of Great Power stemmed from his original assumption that that power would be needed, which was an outgrowth of Futurism. Thanos, as the ultimate extreme end of Futurism incarnate, defeats Tony decisively, accomplishes his ultimate futurist ideal through the ultimate Great Power, and in doing so ALSO takes away Peter, the one Tony was counting on to "get it right." In Endgame one of the first things Tony says to Pepper is that he "lost the kid," and this is followed by his rant against Cap deriding his comment about how if they lose to a threat like Thanos at least they'll do it together, the perfect ideological counter to Tony's obsession with Power. Better to lose the right way than win the wrong way. These two moments are the perfect encapsulation of Tony reaching his lowest point as a character, because his approach led to the loss of Peter, and Cap's approach led to the loss of everything else. This is as much why Tony initially refuses to help them with the Time Heist as his need to protect his family: Tony no longer trusts himself. It takes Pepper's fundamental humanity and love to help him see through to doing the right thing despite his own reservations with his judgment. In the end I think the value that Iron Man embraces to save the universe from Thanos is not Neoliberalism, it's closer to Humanism. Tony has to learn to emotionally connect with people, learn to believe in them, stop trying to come up with magical solutions to problems through technology and instead act as one part of a group to accomplish the greater good that he's after. Now, I admit that Tony giving Peter a satellite full of Killbots and trying to anoint him the Protector Of Earth throws something of a spanner into the character arc, but I think it's important to remember that chronologically Tony built that satellite and left that note and the glasses BEFORE Infinity War. He would have never had any other chance to do it because he thought Peter was never coming back during the 5 year gap. He built those tools for Peter trusting that Peter was the Golden Child who could make the right decisions that he had screwed up, and it was only after Peter was gone that he finally learned that having those tools in the first place won't do you any good. I'm fully confident that the Tony Stark that came out the other end of Infinity War would have never built Edith, let alone given it to Peter. As I said in an earlier post, I would have preferred it if Peter had destroyed the thing, but I assume because he didn't it's going to serve a purpose and Peter will eventually learn to move beyond the place that FFH left him.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:29
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Sanguinia posted:Now, I admit that Tony giving Peter a satellite full of Killbots and trying to anoint him the Protector Of Earth throws something of a spanner into the character arc, but I think it's important to remember that chronologically Tony built that satellite and left that note and the glasses BEFORE Infinity War. He would have never had any other chance to do it because he thought Peter was never coming back during the 5 year gap. He built those tools for Peter trusting that Peter was the Golden Child who could make the right decisions that he had screwed up, and it was only after Peter was gone that he finally learned that having those tools in the first place won't do you any good. I'm fully confident that the Tony Stark that came out the other end of Infinity War would have never built Edith, let alone given it to Peter. As I said in an earlier post, I would have preferred it if Peter had destroyed the thing, but I assume because he didn't it's going to serve a purpose and Peter will eventually learn to move beyond the place that FFH left him. Are you suggesting that when Tony Stark was dying one of his last thoughts was "OH poo poo PETER'S GONNA GET THOSE HORRIBLE GLASSES THAT I NEVER GOT AROUND TO DESTROYING"? SpiderHyphenMan fucked around with this message at 02:42 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 02:38
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:Are you suggesting that when Tony Stark was dying one of his last thoughts was "OH poo poo PETER'S GONNA GET THOSE HORRIBLE GLASSES THAT I NEVER GOT AROUND TO DESTROYING?" I certainly am NOW. That silent glace at Peter certainly had kind of a "horrified," feel to it. I also wouldn't put it past Tony to have like... forgotten. It wouldn't the first time he forgot or blocked out a very important thing due to trauma and/or... being Tony Stark.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:42
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Sanguinia posted:I certainly am NOW. That silent glace at Peter certainly had kind of a "horrified," feel to it. This is the second biggest stretch I've ever seen on SA.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:47
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SpiderHyphenMan posted:This is the second biggest stretch I've ever seen on SA. I was mostly joking about the horrified/forgotten thing, yeesh. What I do think it a reasonable explanation is that Tony never destroyed the glasses because they were a totem of sorts. Similar to Quill never getting rid of or opening that box with the Vol. 2 Mix Tape because it would have made his mother's death final and real, Tony couldn't get rid of the glasses. And since they're bio-metrically locked to a kid who turned to dust in space, he can more easily rationalize that there's no danger in keeping them.
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Jul 11, 2019 02:50
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PJOmega posted:Tony "We Don't Make Weapons Anymore except maybe international network of spy satellites filled with killbots under the control of one user" Stark It woulda' been rad if they spelled this out a little more explicitly in the plane scene, but it was definitely touched on and addressed, particularly thematically when he starts yanking Tony tech out of his next suit's schematic on the holo table and simplifying it down to just Spiderman stuff. Then, y'know, there's the Ben Parker suitcase representing his parental baggage getting blown the gently caress up by the end of the movie. Edit: Something that did bug me during this on my first and only watch so far is that he sits in a loving bar, without his mask, with Mysterio, and both are in constume. We spend the whole loving movie talking about how important his secret identity is, and here he is just sitting in the Night Monkey stealth suit just chillin' in a bar with a superhero, in a world where every fucker in the country has a camera in their pocket. LividLiquid fucked around with this message at 03:20 on Jul 11, 2019 |
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Jul 11, 2019 03:12
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I just saw this and it's really dumb that they hurdle over Peter being poor by having rich Uncle Tony die and give him everything
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Jul 11, 2019 03:31
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Gumball Gumption posted:I just saw this and it's really dumb that they hurdle over Peter being poor by having rich Uncle Tony die and give him everything Is it apt to call MCU Peter Parker a trust fund baby now, relative to superheroism?
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Jul 11, 2019 03:35
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Beats me. It is however a really lazy solution that allows them to avoid writing anything too challenging.
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Jul 11, 2019 03:40
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I'm goin' with it, because Peter's always been a poor kid with limited resources on screen and when you're doing the third incarnation of Spider Man in 20 years, with two other incarnations spanning five movies, you want to set it apart. It makes more sense than a kid from Queens making the spider suits from the Raimi or ASM movies, too, but ultimately that doesn't matter so much as doing new things and not repeating beats.
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Jul 11, 2019 03:49
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Is Mysterio straight up the most vindictive villain on the mcu? Also interesting contrast that he gave up Pete’s identity while Toomes stood up for him against Gargan
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Jul 11, 2019 03:59
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I'd rather have Peter still being a genius and inventing his own stuff with Stark tech resources than just accepting the typically gigantic blow to suspension of disbelief demanded when he can make all his spider tech from the local radio shack or him just not being a genius and all his tech abilities coming from either Spider Wisdom or mutant biology. At least when Iron Man makes stuff from a Box of Scraps its the exception rather than the rule. Its not like Tony left him a big check or anything, he still seems as firmly lower middle class as he ever was in terms of how he's living.
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Jul 11, 2019 04:02
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Sanguinia posted:I'd rather have Peter still being a genius and inventing his own stuff with Stark tech resources than just accepting the typically gigantic blow to suspension of disbelief demanded when he can make all his spider tech from the local radio shack or him just not being a genius and all his tech abilities coming from either Spider Wisdom or mutant biology. At least when Iron Man makes stuff from a Box of Scraps its the exception rather than the rule. Me an my lower middle class buddies on our European vaca
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Jul 11, 2019 04:48
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Bard Maddox posted:it's weird that the John Wick franchise cares more about New York than the new Spider-Man movies do Alright this take actually pisses me off. Manhattan, specifically the 2 block radius around times square, isnt new york. Its a weird tourist area. Im happy as hell theyre finally showing the real NYC, mainly Queens and Bk. These are the first Spidey movies that feels like the NYC I live in. Well the small portion in Civil War amd Homecoming....
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Jul 11, 2019 04:52
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DeimosRising posted:Me an my lower middle class buddies on our European vaca He's in a fancy genius school on scholarship isn't he? They do that kind of poo poo. Even if he was in a public high school a lot of them will do special trips at a fat discounts because the tour company offers special rates and the school covers most of the cost. My public high school did an annual 4 day trip to NYC for seniors who took Drama classes for like... I think 800 bucks for air, hotel, events and food or something? Hell, the school district I teach at now is in a crazy poor town, like 70% of our kids are on free pr reduced lunches, and the high school STILL does an annual trip to DC in the social studies department. I grant that a week long trip to Europe including stops in Venice and Paris is a stretch, but its not facially absurd.
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Jul 11, 2019 04:58
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Calaveron posted:Is Mysterio straight up the most vindictive villain on the mcu? It's funny you say that because I couldn't help but be reminded of IM3 and Aldritch Killian. I liked the reveal of the other people helping Beck having been burned by Tony but that itself felt kinda lame.
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Jul 11, 2019 06:36
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Laterite posted:It's funny you say that because I couldn't help but be reminded of IM3 and Aldritch Killian. I liked the reveal of the other people helping Beck having been burned by Tony but that itself felt kinda lame. At least Aldritch has the excuse of Tony actually being a dick to him. Mysterio wanted revenge for Tony giving the invention that he fully funded and showed off to a global audience a silly name, and he was actually fired for... being a sociopath, which is a good reason to fire somebody. Also hard to muster sympathy for bald computer tech man being "burned by Tony," when he was working to help Obidiah reverse-engineer Tony's reactor specifically as part of the plot to murder him. I think its fair to say that with those two as the ringleaders that the rest of that crew were not in fact good decent blue-collar victims of the Stark Industries corporate machine. Once your leader says he's going to start murdering innocent teenagers to cover your tracks and you don't drop out of the plan, I'm not really going to buy the "taking back the stolen fruits of my labor," argument anymore.
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Jul 11, 2019 06:49
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Not a single one of them is blue-collar, anyway. Nothing about being high up in the tech industry/management/office/whatever is blue-collar.
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Jul 11, 2019 07:50
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What's the furthest that plot elements in the MCU have varied from their source material? Cobbling things together from different stories is one thing, but I'm wondering if they've done stuff that really came out of left field?
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Jul 11, 2019 08:10
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Casimir Radon posted:What's the furthest that plot elements in the MCU have varied from their source material? Cobbling things together from different stories is one thing, but I'm wondering if they've done stuff that really came out of left field? The Mandarin
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Jul 11, 2019 08:20
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Sanguinia posted:He's in a fancy genius school on scholarship isn't he? They do that kind of poo poo. Even if he was in a public high school a lot of them will do special trips at a fat discounts because the tour company offers special rates and the school covers most of the cost. My public high school did an annual 4 day trip to NYC for seniors who took Drama classes for like... I think 800 bucks for air, hotel, events and food or something? I don’t know about you but my family never once in my whole life had 800 bucks for me to go gently caress around on and that wouldn’t buy you the ticket
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Jul 11, 2019 08:28
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DeimosRising posted:I don’t know about you but my family never once in my whole life had 800 bucks for me to go gently caress around on and that wouldn’t buy you the ticket My family had 800 bucks they saved up for my whole high school so I could go do a one-time-in-my-life school supervised trip, NOT "go gently caress around." Also it DID buy me the ticket, and all the rest of the stuff, because the school paid for most of the trip and students just had to be able to chip in a certain amount because it was limited to Drama students, much like Peter's trip was limited to Science students. Did you actually read the whole post or were you too worried about trying to illustrate how bougie I am for daring to discuss how it's relatively normal for High Schools to offer educational trip opportunities at a cost that even less-well-off students can theoretically afford? Like, I literally said that I work in a school district where this is a thing in a community where 70% of students are on food assistance, and also conceded that going all the way to Europe is a stretch. What more do you want?
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Jul 11, 2019 09:29
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