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Nice run through so far, very interested to keep following along!
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Aug 11, 2019 23:12
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A great write up of one of the most exciting bits of the books. An interesting contrast is with a similar event at the British Embassy in Afghanistan during the 2nd Afghan War, as shown in The Far Pavilions.Ceiling fan posted:There was a surprisingly good screen adaptation of Royal Flash. I am not a fan of it. They chose one of the more comedic books and leant heavily into slapstick comedy. Fine, but not much to my taste and it fails to touch any of the meatier, more dramatic historical strengths of the series. (Such as the 1st Afghan War sequences above and soon to come). I personally though McDowell was badly miscast as Flashman, who is a big scary looking bloke who can fake being hard. Again, and this is directorial rather than his acting range, he was more buffoon than villain. I’m sure the film is strong of its type and agree the closing speech is a nice touch. Just interesting how different perspectives can be.
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Aug 24, 2019 09:06
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Selachian posted:I'm surprised that someone hasn't written, or Fraser's publisher hasn't engaged someone to write, the Flashman-in-the-Civil-War book that Fraser frequently dropped hints about but never did. One of the great disappointments really. Flashman would have had great scope in the ACW, the juxtaposition of incredible heroism and self-sacrifice with horrible brutality and the onset of industrial slaughter would have brought out the best in his historical perspective (IMO).
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Oct 19, 2019 19:14
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aphid_licker posted:You'd think that the prince could've dropped his BFF a card about having a spot of the clap and having had to hire a Doppelgänger for the wedding. I think you're assuming that the actual Prince is a willing part of this scheme!
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Mar 13, 2020 18:56
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I am not claustrophobic, but I remember when I first read these books the image of Flashman 'drowning upside down' in that pipe was quite impressive, as was the description of his continuing psychological trauma from it.
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Mar 23, 2020 23:40
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Beefeater1980 posted:
I think his views were a little bit more complex. I've read most of his books (he did a great war memoir, some short stories about his (fictionalised) army experience post-war, and a couple other novels, some outright comic and some more serious. I'd say Fraser would be considered racist today. Not a white supremacist or with any really nasty attitudes, that description of Gezo of Dahomey notwithstanding. Just sort of a 'not racist, but . . . ' type. Would probably have claimed that he had absolutely nothing against any ethnicity, but at the same time viewed things markedly as 'people like us' and 'you people'. I suppose maybe the best word is colonialist? I'm sure that he was on the balance of pro-Empire despite being realistic about some of the more larcenous aspects of it. Like he'd have been perfectly aware that person A, an Indian, is equal to person B, a white Brit, in every way. But he'd still be dead certain that Britain was a better country than India and buy into the idea that the Raj spread civilization. I would not be surprised if in person he was the sort who says that they have no problem with foreigners, they just don't want them coming over here, etc etc
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Jun 17, 2020 21:20
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How are u posted:Haw haw! Cardigan was a really interesting aberration of the British class system and its intersection with the Army. The universal opinion of everyone who knew him seems to have been that he was truly dense. His main military skill seems to have been the presentation of his units' uniforms. But at this point in history, despite having a fully formed bureaucracy which ostensibly ran things, he could still be chosen for important field command. His time in command during the Crimean War was shockingly incompetent. Most interestingly, he went a bit Flashman on his return to England afterwards. He got back while the war was still ongoing, because he had pleaded ill-health and returned in the private yacht(!) which he had brought with him on campaign. Received a hero's reception because the initial reports about the Charge of the Light Brigade, reported as heroism rather than simple incompetence, had flown ahead of him. Promptly span a load of guff at public events about sharing his men's hardships on campaign and pursuing the enemy after the Charge. Total bullshit, in fact there was a lot of controversy for years afterwards because many officers saw him retreating while fighting was still going on.
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Jul 16, 2020 09:54
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McTimmy posted:That last line may be the truest thing ever spoken in literature. I'm not sure about that, it almost sounds a bit of a stagey touch to me. But in general, one big advantage Fraser has over a lot of writers of adventure type books is that he had been there and seen the elephant. He was also a major cinephile and an experienced screenwriter. So I think a lot of his dialogue has that little dramatic flourish, but reading it you can sometimes also see the truth underneath.
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Jul 17, 2020 10:54
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I seem to remember that the Thin Red Line is one of those famous warped quotations that have entered history differently to their original form. What William Russell wrote was a "thin red streak topped with a line of steel".
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Jul 24, 2020 13:31
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Viola the Mad posted:So what I'm getting out of all of this is that the only reason why the British conquered a quarter of the world is because "we have the Maxim, and they have not." I think that summary is over-simplistic. The British won colonial wars because they had a powerful organisation behind them. The army may have been shown up as deficient on many occasions, but they did have discipline, training in cohesion and marksmanship, logistic support, dedicated engineering and artillery, etc. These are all things that gave an insurmountable advantage, not just the maxim gun, which was invented in 1884. During this early victorian period I believe the small arms were still muzzle-loading, and as we've just read, the cavalry didn't even carry carbines. The firepower advantage enjoyed by the British over colonial opponents tended to lie in accurate artillery and the musketry drill of the infantry. This series will eventually take Flashman to the Sikh wars, where the British (and Company) forces didn't, on the balance, have much organisational advantage over the Sikh state, and prevailed in a bloody and close fought conflict. Don't assume that because commanders and the institution as a whole hosed up the Crimean War (and many others) that the whole institution was incompetent at everything it did. While some of their assumptions and traditions seem absurd today, the British army had a 'hard school' in India along the Northwest Frontier, and as you would expect, many officers, soldiers, regiments and generals devoted serious effort to their profession. You are right that an army which won its experience mostly against non-peer opposition was unprepared for a larger European conflict. But what made the Crimean War worse was that the experienced, competent-at-what-they-did army in India wasn't brought to bear. A European war was the chance for Napoleonic relics and officers who had spent their whole career in Britain to gently caress things up. The skill and discipline of officers and soldiers at regimental level (where I believe there was more Indian experience floating about) was, after all, sufficient to beat the Russian army at Alma, at Inkerman, and to end the siege overall, even in the face of such poor command and supply. There's a wider theme through the 19th century of firepower advancing with technology and tactics miserably failing to catch up. That culminated in the massive blunders of the First World War. It's a big subject, but the idea of 'Lions Led by Donkeys' is mostly seen as a myth now. The British general staff and command echelons, like all the other combatant nations, massively misunderstood the tactical realities at the start of the war. Their understanding did improve, as did tactical and operational methods, through the war. 1918 was probably the high point of the British Army, ie it had a decent claim to be the most professionally accomplished force in the world at that time.
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Aug 1, 2020 09:07
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I always thought that was one of the more obviously pulpy plot hooks in the series. The villainous Ruskis hatching their dastardly schemes even discuss the fact that there are British officers staying who may find out what's going on. But for some incredibly stupid reason they decide that doesn't matter.
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Aug 9, 2020 20:00
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Gats Akimbo posted:
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Apr 8, 2021 18:55
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I believe it's a glass of spirits. Like a 'tot of rum'. Probably arrack in this case.
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Apr 12, 2021 18:45
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mllaneza posted:The Retief stories are pretty awesome and will probably appeal to most of the readers of this thread, have a couple of samples: This is really bizarre. I personally think the short story I read there was forgettable pulp, but the guy writing this foreword really, really likes the author. The political commentary and worldview has not aged well.
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Apr 27, 2021 18:22
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Agreed. I'm not an expert on the 'Great Game' of central Asia, but the Imperial Russians certainly stirred the Afghan tribes up against the British. No idea if those efforts extended into Southern India, but it's not too far a stretch to say it happened, and Fraser doesn't explicitly say it led to the Mutiny.
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May 11, 2021 18:42
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poisonpill posted:To be fair, I tried reading Tom Brown’s School Days once and the author came off as a holier-than-thou, self-righteous prig. That is very much the case, and some would say the point. He wrote it as a sort of instruction and advertisement for his brand of 'muscular christianity' and its good effects, as he saw it, on boys.
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May 19, 2021 10:37
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Squibsy posted:I finally caught up with the thread last night. Thanks to all the OP's who've taken on the mantle. I read several Flash books some time ago so this has been a great way to "re-read" them. I got about 80% of the way through Flash at the Charge before realising that was one of the ones I'd already read! Hey, did you used to go under the username ineptmule? Or just the same profile pic?
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May 29, 2021 10:56
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withak posted:Next part is my favorite part. It is absolutely riveting!
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Jun 12, 2021 09:57
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Echoing everyone else's comments that Flashman becomes more likeable over the course of the series. I do put that firmly on the instinct of the reader and author to identify with someone they have 'known' for a protracted period. While we start to root for his success, he does still routinely do horrific things, betrays people in a callous fashion, randomly inflicts cruelty on underlings etc. We just get used to it. On the cowardice/courage front, rather than any moral axis, there's also been a bit of contradiction. Flashman has very little stiff upper lip in extremis and his internal narrative is that of a gibbering coward. But he can certainly mix it up as a man of action when necessary. Even early on, in Royal Flash he fights a sabre duel against a fearsome opponent - yes, he hates doing it and it ends badly, and you might say Fraser is forced to put it in as a Prisoner of Zenda parallel, but you can't say that's not heroic stuff. Again and again, he does things, when there's no other way out, which are fairly adventurous, swearing and gibbering quietly the while. He also stays impressive looking when in the company of other British officers, even under fire. Every man would be a coward if he durst, sure, but in front of his peers Flashman can certainly fake it very well. That's really not the action of as abject a coward as he presents himself. I remember recommending these books to my mum, who is a history enthusiast but is not a reader of boys-own type adventure narratives and thus not accustomed to unquestioningly accepting acts of daring-do as part of the plot. I'd described Flashman as a satire of heroes who was a total coward, and after reading one of the books she said 'what do you mean? He's not a coward.' By most standards outside an adventure novel, he's a man of action, if not exactly a stalwart one.
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Jun 20, 2021 10:00
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Norwegian Rudo posted:Really hope this continues. I'd say the next three books are still peak Flashman before the series starts to slip. I agree I hope this continues, indeed right to the end! The next three are classic, absolutely. I think F&the Mountain of Light is also pretty drat good. Angel of the Lord and the Tiger are probably the weakest of the series, but they do have their charms and I think it's quite close. Perhaps oddly, I think the final volume, Flashman on the March, was also pretty close to the form of the middle ones. A little bit of a rerun perhaps? But it's a fascinating and little known military campaign and some truly astonishing historical personalities, so peak Flashy in that sense.
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Jun 21, 2021 14:36
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I think you've missed a chunk of the quote on the third wicket there!
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Jul 16, 2021 11:35
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:There's an extended set piece joke in one of the Aubrey/Maturin books that relies on the differences between English cricket and Irish hurling and after hours and hours on wikipedia and numerous explanations on this forum, I *still* don't get it. I thought that bit was fairly simple - Maturin, sent in to bat for his ship's side, has completely misunderstood Aubrey's explanation of the rules. He runs out to catch the ball with his hurling bat, dribbles forward and knocks down the other batsman's wicket. It's as if (in football, aka soccer) a midfielder had got possession of the ball, sprinted toward his own team's goal and scored an own goal. I don't think there's much detailed knowledge of hurling required, it's more that Maturin didn't follow which team was supposed to guard the wickets.
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Jul 19, 2021 21:14
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How are u posted:They truly deserve each other. How do you mean? Flashman has constant doubts that Elspeth is actually a bit deeper than she seems, at least as far as carrying on affairs behind his back. The journal extracts (you can debate how self-serving they are supposed to be) tend to support she's almost simple, just very sheltered, in a way, in how she sees the world. They don't make her look good, she comes off as petty, vain, silly, self-centred etc, but nowhere near as bad as Flashman. Remember that for all his likeability and acute observations, he is a rapist, murderer and all round sociopath bastard.
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Jul 31, 2021 17:21
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I have read (and re-read) these books many times since I was an adolescent. One thing that strikes me on your read-through here is that Fraser doesn't specifically note this 'instinctive fornication' as a rape, and it really doesn't come across that Flashman, at least, thinks it's any huge deal, presuming his victim has fainted from ecstasy rather than terror. I'd like to think there's some tongue-in-cheek intent from the author there, but actually, reflecting, when I read this for the first time (I must have been 13 or 14?) I probably didn't read it as a rape either. Quite unlike how his behaviour in Afghanistan is represented. It's just actually quite chilling that Flashman can reflect on this as a bit of amorous fun - he's a complete sociopath. From this woman's presumable POV, a bloodstained, armed maniac burst in, caught her while she attempted to flee, then held a gun on her and raped her, while she tried to act compliant to lessen the chance of being murdered. To Flashman (and arguably to readers like young me) it doesn't even register, as a 'native' woman in a harem (and as a secondary extra in an adventure novel) she doesn't rate any such perspective.Xander77 posted:That's the second or third time Fraser remarks about the exceptional hand-to-hand skills of the common British soldier \ sailor, neither of which were ever noted as particularly capable melee fighters in the real world. He also goes on about Tommy's incredible sharpshooting proficiency in Quartered Safe Out Here. He does romanticise British prowess, but I think if you challenged him with it he'd have brought out any number of examples where outnumbered British soldiers or seaman did triumph against long odds. In my opinion, this has bugger all to do with native tendencies and very little with cultural martial prowess. Basically, a bunch of fighters who are professionals, paid, motivated and led, with a long tradition and commensurate expectation of victory, are usually going to outdo ad-hoc forces of amateurs thrown up against them. The British seamen at Brooke's historical battles probably were some of his best and most reliable troops, but it was because of the organisation behind them and how it prepared them for military operations, not because they were a bunch of rough-and-hearty bull-necked true blue British tars with hearts of oak.
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Sep 20, 2021 19:50
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The upcoming bits are absolutely nuts. I would be interested to learn more about how much is 100% true and if there is any outdated/misunderstood historical evidence Fraser was drawing on. I mean, some of what we're about to read beggars belief, not that that means it isn't true.
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Oct 14, 2021 10:12
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sebmojo posted:D...e is possibly deuce, a comically inoffensive word I thought it was 'damme', ie 'drat me'. I definitely think there's some uncomfortable racist overtones in the obsequious Fankanonikaka and how much he relishes English language and culture, which are by assumption superior to his own, since his own is portrayed as being utterly illogical, cruel, despotic etc. The less said about Ranavalona being portrayed as animalistic in bed, the better!
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Oct 21, 2021 12:49
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t3isukone posted:Flash has made a lot of really dumb choices, but deciding to screw around on Susie behind her back now is definitely the worst he's made in a while. I mean, I think it's quite in character given he's a base cad ruled by his lusts. The kind of appetites he displays are pretty consistent with poor impulse control. If anything, the amount of calculation he shows a lot of the time is at odds with his basic drivers!
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Feb 28, 2022 23:24
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It's very interesting to read the slightly humorous/adventurous stylings of Flashman in this American frontier environment, and compare it to the way the conflict between native Americans and settlers is portrayed in, say, Blood Meridian or Lonesome Dove.
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Apr 2, 2022 13:22
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Kuiperdolin posted:We're coming right up to my favorite line in the entire series. Does this line relate to Flashman's native American moniker?
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Apr 2, 2022 21:50
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Darth Walrus posted:Funny you should mention Blood Meridian. For readers of that novel, the name 'John Gallantin' should be ringing certain bells. Indeed, I think he crops up in the first prequel to Lonesome Dove as well!
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Apr 4, 2022 19:32
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Arbite posted:Ugh. This whole bit will be awful. You can skip it and pick up next time. It's one of the big strengths of Flashman how his behaviour juxtaposes that of a classic Victorian boys-own action hero. Falling in with scalp hunters, and fighting another man to the death over his dastardly affront to a captive, is very much in that vein. But obviously his motivations are rather less moral, and the whole business is shown in full awareness of how horrific it is. And I'm not sure where to even begin on the subsequent treatment of consent.
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Apr 12, 2022 18:25
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Yeah, I read it as him being hung up from a cottonwood tree, and tortured in whatever way to make him dance.
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Apr 17, 2022 08:52
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I think this sequence (and a lot of others throughout this book) emphasise how much of a potential action hero Flashman is. To many readers, who aren't accustomed to unthinking boys own heroism from their protagonists, he would appear, if not exactly courageous, to be very assured and cool in dangerous situations. Really his only let-downs are not wanting to gallantly stick it out when all appears lost, and his unwillingness to go risk his life unless he has to. But outside of adventure novels, most of us would agree with that latter part! He's obviously a competent enough soldier to take part in this war party without disgrace (this bit strains credulity slightly - he describes the Apache expertise in irregular warfare, but he doesn't mention being given any training in their tactics or familiarisation with the local terrain), he understands that the risks by military standards are minimal. But he's cool enough to disregard the minor risks of being shot during the raid etc, and focus on when is the best chance to risk his life by escaping, presumably because to him, living out his life among the Apache is worse than dying.
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May 6, 2022 08:58
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feedmegin posted:Errr except for about every 20 minutes he turns into that weird UKIP guy down the pub ranting for a few pages about how the Empire has gone downhill or how much he enjoyed shooting fleeing Japanese soldiers in the back. This becomes more true you get further into the book, it's fairly I will concede that his political outlook is very outdated, he certainly seems to have been the sort of bloke who'd refuse to admit the Empire was fundamentally a project for material/economic gain, and drat any human cost. I dispute the characterisation that he says he enjoyed shooting fleeing Japanese soldiers in the back though. He specifically describes sighting down his rifle at enemy soldiers (who I think were retreating, or at any rate caught out at a disadvantage and out of cover, not firing back) and says he felt no shame or hesitation, just satisfaction at scoring hits. That seems a fairly honest and reasonable point about his mindset at the time - I don't think many soldiers in war do feel much internal conflict about killing in the moment. And shooting the enemy whilst they're in disarray is not at all against the rules of war, it's sort of considered the ideal time. 'Fleeing soldiers' isn't the same as soldiers who are surrendering, they tend to be running off to take up new positions and resume shooting at you. There's a separate point to be made about why he felt the need to insist he didn't feel any regret about killing during the war. I certainly don't think his views were beyond reproach. But if you consider him an unusually bloodthirsty person based on his memoir, I have similarly bad news about a huge proportion of the people who served in combat in WW2 (or any war).
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May 8, 2022 21:06
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poisonpill posted:Not disagreeing since I haven’t read it, but how does this square with the Flashman presentation of the Empire as a rapacious amoral greedy violent machine? I think his view may have fallen somewhere between Flashman's amorality and the staunch heroism of the characters he was parodying? Like Fraser does seem to admit there was hypocrisy and cruelty in the Empire, but he also seems to see something to admire in the Christian morality and 'civilising mission' that some of the colonialists did at least partly believe in. How many universities did Britain build in India, etc. Whereas we now might say, well, the Indians didn't want the UK to import great swathes of their institutions to rule over them, so the UK shouldn't have done it, Fraser might think that those institutions were better than what the Indians had previously, so on the balance it was a good thing. Basically I think he acknowledges the Empire had its flaws, but he retains more affection for it than most observers of later generations.
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May 8, 2022 21:56
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Grendel posted:Yeah, I was deeply unimpressed with The Reavers, Captain In Calico, and The Pyrates, but I quite liked Black Ajax. Frasier was a brilliant satirist, but less skilled at farce. I had the same problem with the Royal Flash movie - it leaned way too far into farce. I also didn't care especially for the Pyrates or the Reivers. Not so much I thought they were badly done, as because they mostly referenced a period of classic films I haven't the same memories of and affection for that he clearly did. I agree that Royal Flash film was dire. My brother and I were so disappointed when we heard about it as teenagers and tracked a copy down! For anyone who hasn't seen it, it's Malcolm McDowell as Flashy, who is a good actor but must have been 10 stone soaking wet (140 pounds, or about 64kg) and was not plausible as a cad disguised as Victorian hero. It was mostly Bismarck's 3 goons chasing him around, more like the 3 stooges.
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Jun 26, 2022 22:10
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withak posted:I am always sad that we will never get to read about what Flashman got up to during the Civil War. I think all we know is that he fought for both sides, and was liked by both Lee and Grant. Seriously. One of the great unwritten books in my awareness. Also would have been almost as ripe for Arbite's commentary as Flash for Freedom!
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Jul 13, 2022 23:45
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Arbite posted:... Really glad this is still going! What do you mean about Custer's wife/widow and a disinformation campaign? Was she a leading disseminator of some sort of idea that the Sioux started it, or that he didn't make a colossal tactical blunder?
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Aug 21, 2022 16:28
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Arbite posted:What, no mention of McClellan? Flashman's adventures in the civil war really is one of the great unwritten novels, for my money. The fact he served on both sides, he had the Medal of Honour, that great line from Lincoln . . . we will always wonder what happened.
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Sep 2, 2022 00:07
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It's very interesting to look at some of Flashman's period caddishness through the lens of the current day. I mean, he meets a woman who offers him a business opportunity. He assesses, based mostly on some huge assumptions on her appearance (and perhaps a little about her body language and demeanour, but he might well be kidding himself) that she is aflame with suppressed lust for him. So the moment he gets her alone, after trying to flirt a bit and having her be coldly businesslike, he .... just grabs ahold of her and starts kissing her, with a good bit of gropage thrown in? He'd be the villain in almost any other books. While the author is very aware of his villainy, I also suspect that a female author, or one writing today, would at the least have thrown in a few more instances where his 'advances' are greeted as the sexual assaults they really are.
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Sep 10, 2022 10:11
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