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Guest2553
Aug 3, 2012


poeticoddity posted:

I've lost long-term friends because I said I couldn't in good conscience vote for Democrats until they stopped pushing gun control. I loving hate this two-party system bullshit.

I've lived in both USA and Canada, so maybe it's my coming through, but values beat interests in my books. I'd sooner see every privately owned gun melted into slag if it's the route to keep right wing ghouls away from levers of power. If it wasn't for horrible reactionary policies going back hundreds of years, most people wouldn't feel like they need firearms as much as they do. I'd rather live in that society that doesn't need guns for one segment of society to maintain its supremacy over other segments that it deliberately tore down to be kept destabilized and downtrodden.

That critique is not limited to CAN/US, but it does make me wonder - are dog whistle ad campaigns and open alliance of gun rights and social conservatives as prevalent in other countries? I've only briefly visited other nations but even in ones that make the top 20 firearms per capita list, it doesn't seem as split politically. Censure me if this is flying too close to the sun.

e. my quasi-informed observation is that in some places, ownership is seen as utilitarian (Israel, Sweden, Pakistan, Czechia), or a Cool Thing to Do that enjoys general support from all stripes where permitted. Only in US/Canada does it seem like it's become so married to a political brand. Even in NZ that's had ownership politicized and severely restricted recently, it doesn't come across as partisan in the same way. Willing to be wrong on this because I honestly don't know.

e2: Yes, with current power dynamics, disadvantaged groups (which I fall into) get hosed. Instead of giving everybody more guns as if it'll prevent another Tulsa, KozmoNaut seems to be the only one that a better choice is to live in a goddamned civilized nation where lissencephalic motherfuckers with holy war rapture fetishes aren't elected wholesale.

Guest2553 fucked around with this message at 02:14 on May 23, 2020

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SwissArmyDruid
Feb 14, 2014




Was expecting a more specific answer, but I get it.

crazypeltast52
May 5, 2010



.

crazypeltast52 fucked around with this message at 16:36 on May 22, 2020

NerdyMcNerdNerd
Aug 3, 2004

Lol.i halbve already saod i inferno circstances wanttpgback


You can't spell 'debtor' without 'Dr'.

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010

Who protects?


Grimey Drawer

Guest2553 posted:

e. my quasi-informed observation is that in some places, ownership is seen as utilitarian (Israel, Sweden, Pakistan, Czechia), or a Cool Thing to Do that enjoys general support from all stripes where permitted. Only in US/Canada does it seem like it's become so married to a political brand. Even in a place like NZ that's had ownership politicized and severely restricted recently, it's doesn't come across as partisan in the same way. Willing to be wrong on this because I honestly don't know.

This is kinda my perception as well. However, it does seem pretty reliable that any political framing is that "progressive liberal" parties support populist gun control reform, and "social conservative" parties wish to preserve what's seen as traditional rights/privileges. It's also kind of a geopolitical issue at this point, like the prime minister of New Zealand met with the prime minister of Canada before he issued his order in council. But how different nations handle politics in general informs how partisan the gun politics get. There's also a huge factor of what kind of gun culture each nation has I think, which is typically informed by history, tradition and geography.

America: Martial, anti-tyrannical, enshrinement of self-defence.
Canada: Non-martial, lots of hunting, lots of American media.
Israel: War torn as gently caress, the nation has always seen themselves as fighting for survival.
Pakistan: See above, however my perception is their gun culture is less about national survival and more about personal survival.
Czechia: Constantly subjugated through history, seen American cowboys save Europe in WW2.
Sweden: I'm not actually familiar with Swedish gun culture much at all, but my understanding it's basically "of course you hunt in Sweden."
UK: Guns have been banned for a long time there, it's become normalized for like a century.
AU/NZ: Commonwealth colonies which didn't stray too far from the empire or had much other foreign influence.
Finland: What else are you gonna do except drink vodka and shoot a Suomi SMG? Also had The USSR crashing on their door nearly a century ago.
Switzerland: Uniquely martial, National Redoubt, real strong militia culture because of being surrounded by war for centuries.

All the above is my limited perceptions and may be wrong.

Jehde fucked around with this message at 03:37 on May 22, 2020

goatsestretchgoals
Jun 4, 2011

in soviet russia, you shove robot

FruitNYogurtParfait posted:

The Esteemed Honorable Rev. Dr. Cyrano4747, Esq.

I saw this guy on early morning TV. Dude had an entire choir behind him. He told me all about a 100 Mosin seed. Apparently if I send him 100 Mosins, God will give me a good gun.

E: The choir was singing The Internationale.

Fearless
Sep 3, 2003

DRINK MORE MOXIE



FruitNYogurtParfait posted:

The Esteemed Honorable Rev. Dr. Cyrano4747, Esq.

*tips trilby hat*

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Grimey Drawer

Jehde posted:

But how different nations handle politics in general informs how partisan the gun politics get. There's also a huge factor of what kind of gun culture each nation has I think, which is typically informed by history, tradition and geography.

I'll add to this.

Denmark: A majority of the population will probably go through their lives without seeing in person a firearm being discharged, outside of pellet guns or maybe small caliber target shooting. A wish for less restricted private gun ownership is only really on the libertarian party's agenda, AFAIK all the other parties are in agreement to keep guns restricted.

There is a small segment of the population who want US-style gun laws, for reasons of just wanting more freedom, or as a part of a far right ideology, ie. they want to "defend" themselves against brown people. I don't know of very many lefties who want to own guns, or who even think of guns as anything other than distasteful killing machines.

Historically, guns are seen as being for the military, police, hunters and target shooters, and that's about it.

Gnoman
Feb 11, 2014


As far as I can tell, the Rhodesian stuff has vanished from Aero's website.

Funion
Apr 30, 2013

ANTIFA SUPERSOLDIER





Gnoman posted:

As far as I can tell, the Rhodesian stuff has vanished from Aero's website.

https://www.aeroprecisionusa.com/mo...ke-builder-sets

still up for me

Proper Kerni ng
Nov 14, 2011



Guest2553 posted:

I'd sooner see every privately owned gun melted into slag if it's the route to keep right wing ghouls away from levers of power.
Has anybody ever literally tried to murder you, in person? Like, made a sincere, good faith effort to end you by personal violence? I'm guessing not, because it kindasorta colors one's viewpoint on private firearm ownership. I hate right wing ideology with a seething fury and constantly have to restrain myself from publicly advocating highly illegal responses to it, but there would still be rapists and muggers and meth heads and general purpose assholes in a socialist democracy utopia, and I'm too old and decrepit to trust that my knife fighting skills are still as sharp as they were when I was a teenager. A gun is an absolute and irrefutable equalizer in interpersonal relations, which is exactly why it is a political object.

jwang posted:

JFC Tek Mats, why do you guys have to go all in for Trump? Why are most of the gun industry so blindingly adherent to party lines?
Us/Them propaganda is a hell of a drug, and it's super hard for people who don't question the media they consume to keep it out of their veins when both sides of the utter bullshit two party political duopoly in the US have gone All In on guns-as-culture-war-signifier. I honestly feel really bad for gun companies and retailers who have [whatever] political views but aren't regressive chuds, trying to sell their perfectly legally and vitally important product in a fucky politicized sales environment like this.

Capn Beeb posted:

Yeah, pretty much. I wonder how long it'll be until companies just go hog wild with pro cop rhetoric and suggest their products aren't fit for civilian hands.
Citoyen, you know perfectly well that poo poo started long before either of us were born. Spam email just normalized the TOO MANLY AND DANGEROUS FOR NORMAL PEOPLE aesthetic.

NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

You can't spell 'debtor' without 'Dr'.
My mother in law has a PhD in American History, and got-drat, son, you are dead center on the X ring with that one.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Grimey Drawer

Proper Kerni ng posted:

Has anybody ever literally tried to murder you, in person? Like, made a sincere, good faith effort to end you by personal violence? I'm guessing not, because it kindasorta colors one's viewpoint on private firearm ownership. I hate right wing ideology with a seething fury and constantly have to restrain myself from publicly advocating highly illegal responses to it, but there would still be rapists and muggers and meth heads and general purpose assholes in a socialist democracy utopia, and I'm too old and decrepit to trust that my knife fighting skills are still as sharp as they were when I was a teenager. A gun is an absolute and irrefutable equalizer in interpersonal relations, which is exactly why it is a political object.

As a general observation, the more unequal and insecure/unsafe a society is, the more desperate people will be and the more likely they will resort to desperate measures, including violence. With or without weapons. A broken society and system leads to broken people leads to worse interactions between people. That is the major cause of rapists, muggers, meth heads and violent belligerent assholes, it's not nearly as much of an inherent trait of humanity as some people would claim.

As a corollary to that, the more equal and secure/safe a society is, the better off people will be, and the less likely it is that they will resort to desperate measures such as violence. Yes there would still be unavoidably broken people, but not nearly on the same level, and a minimal police force or local organized citizens watch groups would be able to manage them, without it becoming violent or dangerous to other people.

I've lived my whole life in a country with no real credible threat of violence or death. Yes, people do sometimes beat each other up in drunken fights and we do have gangs controlling the weed market, but for the most part, most people go through their entire lives without ever being in a real fight of any kind aside from that one time in the schoolyard. Even the very few terrorist attacks we've seen have been very small in scale and extremely mild in comparison to what I've seen from other countries. As a consequence, owning and carrying a gun for self defense simply isn't something people even think about, it just isn't a thing here. There's a huge cultural difference there to account for, in regards to how people view weapons and whether they see them as a curiousity primarily in movies and comics, or as an essential part of life.

Guns are just a force multiplier, for good or for bad. Which is why making them a politicized thing like in the US, split along party lines, is killing reasoned debate on the subject.

E: VVVV Yeah, I was thinking that when I clicked "post". Got it.

KozmoNaut fucked around with this message at 11:44 on May 22, 2020

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Let’s refocus this thread on industry stuff and away from generalized gun control. If you want to discuss the broad issues behind gun control we do have a thread for that.

NerdyMcNerdNerd
Aug 3, 2004

Lol.i halbve already saod i inferno circstances wanttpgback


Cyrano4747 posted:

Let’s refocus this thread on industry stuff and away from generalized gun control. If you want to discuss the broad issues behind gun control we do have a thread for that.

Really appreciate the amount of leeway you're willing to give people to explore topics and have discussions instead of just carpet bombing probates.

Not being sarcastic or anything, I realize that I certainly have tried your patience from time to time, especially when I'm pissed/outraged.

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


I realize it definitely won't sell well here in the US, but I legit would love to see a full on commie firearms company that goes full bore on the "kill capitalist pigs" side of the political spectrum, just to balance out all the "socialism is communism" hypocrisy of the right. Just AKs with obnoxious stylized hammer and sickle, Tokarevs with gaudy engravings of Communist Manifesto, you know, commie poo poo that's counter to the stupid poo poo you see on right wing gun stuff.

KozmoNaut
Apr 23, 2008

Happiness is a warm
Turbo Plasma Rifle


Grimey Drawer

You just know they would get rolled on so quickly, harassed, held up on every single bit of paperwork, doxxed, vandalized, the whole nine yards.

It would rule though, to just go all out on commie designs.

Dick Burglar
Mar 6, 2006
Check out my hot takes because I'm a straight white male

KozmoNaut posted:

You just know they would get rolled on so quickly, harassed, held up on every single bit of paperwork, doxxed, vandalized, the whole nine yards.

They'd get raided by the ATF before the ink dried on their application, and everything gone over with the finest-toothed comb in existence so that they could be throw the absolute loving book at them. Also, going full tankie to "own the 'serves" is not a good look anyway. Lose the line about throwing hammer & sickles on poo poo and I'm more on board.

5er
Jun 1, 2000




NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

Really appreciate the amount of leeway you're willing to give people to explore topics and have discussions instead of just carpet bombing probates.

Not being sarcastic or anything, I realize that I certainly have tried your patience from time to time, especially when I'm pissed/outraged.

Agreed, some mods seem to lose their composure occasionally and resort to rather screechy 6'ers because either they think that's comedy, or they've blown a gasket and this place has stopped being fun from them. You're holding down the fort well.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


I don’t think they’d necessarily get much support from leftists either, since the first blush impression would probably be “a bunch of grifters trying to monetize political iconography they don’t believe in,” regardless of the actual politics of the people doing it

Internet Wizard
Aug 9, 2009

BANDAIDS DON'T FIX BULLET HOLES


As unfortunate as it is, the hammer and sickle is pretty much irredeemably tainted by the stink of the millions Stalin killed. Leftists would be better served moving away from anything referencing the USSR as an aspirational state.

LingcodKilla
Dec 28, 2002

I ate too much crab and transformed into this.


Internet Wizard posted:

As unfortunate as it is, the hammer and sickle is pretty much irredeemably tainted by the stink of the millions Stalin killed. Leftists would be better served moving away from anything referencing the USSR as an aspirational state.

Yup. But nobody ever learns.

Stultus Maximus
Dec 21, 2009

USPOL May


Internet Wizard posted:

As unfortunate as it is, the hammer and sickle is pretty much irredeemably tainted by the stink of the millions Stalin killed. Leftists would be better served moving away from anything referencing the USSR as an aspirational state.

AK-47 and hoe.

Babysitter Super Sleuth
Apr 26, 2012

THERE'S FASCISM IN MY GIANT ROBOT ANIMES


If you really wanted to use communist iconography on a firearms company, the red star is probably better suited anyway since its less overtly SovietTM in a stereotypical way and fits better as a sign of socialist armament anyway, as the hammer and sickle was explicitly a civilian-coded symbol.

stealie72
Jan 10, 2007

Their eyes locked and suddenly there was the sound of breaking glass.


Stultus Maximus posted:

AK-47 and hoe.
Gotta modernize that poo poo: Cash register and pallet jack, steering wheel and back brace, mop and garbage bag.

Babysitter Super Sleuth posted:

If you really wanted to use communist iconography on a firearms company, the red star is probably better suited anyway since its less overtly SovietTM in a stereotypical way and fits better as a sign of socialist armament anyway, as the hammer and sickle was explicitly a civilian-coded symbol.
Put an arrow in it and pretend it's a Tula arsenal AR.

jwang
Mar 31, 2013


Hammer and Sickle originally was chosen because it represented Industry and Agriculture. I guess we can instead use wheat stalks and bolts? Gears and thresher? I'm not too married to the hammer and sickle, it's just the first icon people tend to think of when you say "communism".

Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


Guest2553 posted:

I'd sooner see every privately owned gun melted into slag if it's the route to keep right wing ghouls away from levers of power.

Great way to get marginalized people killed here because you loving know the fash would never, ever comply, nor be made to comply.

KozmoNaut posted:

You just know they would get rolled on so quickly, harassed, held up on every single bit of paperwork, doxxed, vandalized, the whole nine yards.

It would rule though, to just go all out on commie designs.

That and we'd get Mulford Act from the Do Something™ crowd, complete with bipartisan support just like the first one.

kupachek
Aug 5, 2015

We both like to hang out in public bathrooms?!

jwang posted:

Hammer and Sickle originally was chosen because it represented Industry and Agriculture. I guess we can instead use wheat stalks and bolts? Gears and thresher? I'm not too married to the hammer and sickle, it's just the first icon people tend to think of when you say "communism".

Gears were/are commonly used by skinheads and white supremacists.

NerdyMcNerdNerd
Aug 3, 2004

Lol.i halbve already saod i inferno circstances wanttpgback


Internet Wizard posted:

As unfortunate as it is, the hammer and sickle is pretty much irredeemably tainted by the stink of the millions Stalin killed. Leftists would be better served moving away from anything referencing the USSR as an aspirational state.

All iconography that incorporates labor will forever be accused of the same. You could write 'worker rights' on an otherwise blank piece of paper and someone would point and scream "BEGONE, TROT"

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Let's nudge this thread and get it re-railed to identifying racists, authoritarians, and other assholes in the firearms industry.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Got a response from a VP at Aero. I’m blanking his info because I’m not a dick.

quote:



Hello Dr Cyrano,

Thank you for your email and your ongoing support of Aero Precision. To make sure we are clear here, we did not make a Rhodesian themed lower. We used the popular Rhodesian Brushstroke Camo pattern for our Monthly Builder Set program, a program that has been in place for several years now and has seen over 30 different finishes/paint schemes/camo patterns used. None of these finishes have been done with a motive behind them – they simply are a limited run opportunity for our customers to get something unique other than a black or FDE Cerakote rifle.

To tie historical context to it and assume our intentions have anything to do with the history of Rhodesia itself is quite the stretch. “Rhodesian Brushstroke Camo” has become a common use term in our industry and in the camo industry as a whole. Did you know the US Armed Forces have actually used Rhodesian Camo in specific applications? The MARPAT digicam used by our US forces includes blended elements from Rhodesian Brushstroke. In the early 2000’s, the USMC evaluated Rhodesian Brushstroke as one of the 3 best military grade camo patters and actually considered adopting it. Much like us, none of this was done with any historical significant reference to Rhodesia. It’s simply because it’s a great camo finish and that’s what it is called.

Perhaps considered an oversight on our part when analyzed by a historian such as yourself, but I assure you there is no ill-intent here. Our goal is simply to provide great (and unique) products to our customers that keep them excited about their hobby as AR enthusiasts. We are machinists, engineers, marketers and firearms enthusiast. We are not historical activists. We believe in the 2nd amendment and have taken much action to stand up for it. That’s the only political realm we play in.

I do take your comments seriously and will be having an internal discussion on the topic within our marketing department. I think it will generate some interesting and enlightening conversation.

I hope this information was helpful to your inquiry.

Sincerely,

<guy’s name>
VP of <department>


Make of that as you will. Personally, it scans for me. This is the sort of thing that I could see some gun enthusiasts and engineers doing because they focused on the cool camo pattern and were either ignorant of the history or thought that it wasn’t relevant. Not good but I personally don’t think there is an agenda here.

Now if you disagree, that’s you’re prerogative. If it’s the sort of thing that makes you not want their products that’s your decision. God knows I’ve stopped patronizing companies for dumb poo poo plenty of times.

Still looking at it myself it’s nothing near say, a Smith Enterprise left clusterfuck.

LingcodKilla
Dec 28, 2002

I ate too much crab and transformed into this.


I’d say see what they follow this up with.

Funion
Apr 30, 2013

ANTIFA SUPERSOLDIER





Ah, they didn't make a Rhodesian-themed lower, they just used the camo finish on their monthly builder set.

Huge difference there.

And I mean the Rhodesian camo is popular in the industry (for some weird reason), and it's been used by the US military!

Yeah guess they're fully absolved then.

Arcella
Dec 16, 2013

Shiny and Chrome


Sounds like you could just call it “Brushstroke Camo” instead of “Rhodesian Brushstroke Camo” just like you’d call it “Blurred Edge” instead of “Nazi Blurred Edge”

mlmp08
Jul 11, 2004


Nap Ghost

The fact that they refused to specifixally renounce Rhodesia and white supremacist minority rule speaks volumes to me.

It would be trivial for a decent person to renounce white supremacy in that response, but they deliberately avoided that stance.

They also have not responded to me whatsoever. My Email was more direct than Cyrano’s in that I essentially asked if they knew Rhodesia was about white supremacy and asked if they opposed white supremacy.

CainFortea
Oct 15, 2004



Remember this was in their email.

"Our Rhodesian Brushstroke Builder Set includes double feature by Republic Rifle, an homage to the classic camouflage pattern used by military forces in Southern Africa dating back to the 1960s. This unique take features individual Rhodesian "Brushstroke" and Rhodesian "Nights" patterns with optional matching furniture.

While the Rhodesian Brushstroke variant is the more traditional representation of this pattern, Republic Rifle also delivered with Rhodesian Nights, a modernized color-way variation that mimics more current covert style camos. The Rhodesian Brushstroke Camo pattern has recently seen a resurgence in popularity, and you can be one of the first to get your hands on it for your custom AR build!"

So when informed that it's become more popular lately because of racism, they talk about how long they've been selling guns and the fact that they're not historians. Oh and MARPAT uses features of it? What, the colors?

I'm still not convinced they were like "Hell yea lets put this out there to commemorate murdering black people" but their handling of it sure is disappointing.

Somebody Awful
Nov 27, 2011

Don't let Lowtax go down with the ship. Do your part for these dead gay forums.


The response sure reads like "sorry you're offended " to me.

Jehde
Apr 20, 2010

Who protects?


Grimey Drawer

Cyrano4747 posted:

Aero VP posted:

We are not historical activists.



vvv: Ah right.

Jehde fucked around with this message at 04:46 on May 23, 2020

Carbohydrates
Nov 22, 2006

Listen, Mr. Kansas Law Dog.
Law don't go around here.
Savvy?


Aero, not Brownells

Fifty Three
Oct 29, 2007



It reads to me like they're irritated they even have to answer the question.

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Capn Beeb
Jun 29, 2003

We all got it coming, kid


Somebody Awful posted:

The response sure reads like "sorry you're offended " to me.

Fifty Three posted:

It reads to me like they're irritated they even have to answer the question.

Hot dog, we have a wiener

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