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That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Party Plane Jones posted:

At one point I think somebody looked it up in the Huey p newton thread but off the top of my head: the only places it exists that could be found were either from Cair, posts referencing their post, or from something awful. Basically nothing could be found that was from sccy or from one of their vendors or employees at a trade show or sale or anything like that. It’s entirely possible it was a one off button since I don’t think anybody even found any other buttons referencing Sccy at all to begin with.

Usually with these sorts of things there’s at least some semblance of evidence on the internet still, but this is sort of a black hole

I was hoping the SCCY thing would be brought up as well. I think I saw the discussion here and in the Huey P thread also. I looked around on my own for a bit because I was curious also when someone called bullshit on it and yeah there's almost nothing at all out there actually directly tying it back to the company itself. I'm quite curious more about the mystery of this specific thing than I really am about the company etc (I have no interest in their guns no matter what their views are). Seems like it could actually be bullshit which for this kind of thing would be a bit unusual.

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That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Also Cyrano you missed the boat by not calling this thread "The faults in our SCARs"

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

If we're doing pun titles, I'm partial to "Fash and Accessories"

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Miso Beno posted:


A 100% open door policy is a bad policy.


Given that 2008-2016 had some of the highest deportation numbers we've ever seen (and far more than GWB) I would like to politely assert that this is a false narrative / propaganda against the left.

Some liberals are vocally supportive of an open border policy, but that has never actually been put in place. To me it's just rhetoric to stoke the fears of 'illegals takin our jerbs' talk.



infrared35 posted:

Not true at all.

The issue is that when a company gets caught doing it, it's a game of musical chairs and pity the bastard left without a seat when the music stops. That is to say, usually one or two people get hung out to dry, and the rest of the company moves on.

They should absolutely be holding companies more accountable, but the burden of proof scales geometrically, the more people you try to tie in.

Edit: Frankly, I'm super amazed they were able to tie JP Morgan Chase to that ship full of cocaine. Those guys must be getting lazy about covering their tracks.


I would argue that it still would be far more effective to continue prosecution and make better legislation to target companies that knowingly hire illegal immigrants instead of trying to enforce a border wall or similar policy. You have a much more unique view into this so I am genuinely curious if you think that would be a bad idea or not.




if this is a derail that just needs to die please don't bother responding, but am trying to discuss both of those points in good spirits / good faith.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


stealie72 posted:

some old hippie in New Hampshire who drives to gun shows in a forty-year-old Volvo with a Mondale Ferraro sticker on the bumper?

Getting uncomfortably close to doxxing.



Serious reply I have never heard of a leftward leaning firearms or accessories company ever but I hadn't really tried to find one specifically either. Searching around for a while doesn't turn up much either. I doubt one in the USA at least exists at all. I can't imagine there's enough market to support it. S&W, Ruger and the other massive gun companies at least don't wade into political rhetoric much (to my knowledge) so at least there's that.

Comedy option CZ I guess too.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Yond Cassius posted:

You're thinking of a Spike's lower, not PSA.



It disappoints me because it's just such a lazy cheap shot. If they'd gone the "offending everyone equally" route and made something lefty-oriented it would've been much better. Their "Crusader" lower goes "PAX PACES // BELLUM // DEUS VOLT", so why not have that third option be "ANTIFA" or "VIVA LA REVOLUCION" or even "RESPECT MY PRONOUNS"?

We can probably guess.

Their position on that is clear from how they describe their shirts etc for sale:

quote:

Our t-shirts are intentionally designed to anger and confuse liberals. We fully embrace our belief that America is awesome and is worth fighting for. Make your selection and let the liberals know how you really feel.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:


People of all races should feel like they can open-carry ( like complete morons ) without fear of getting shot by the cops.

Should

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Numlock posted:

In the area between Houston and New Orleans the Venn diagram of cop, militia and klan is a circle.

It sounds like a joke but it’s not. Do not be in that area after dark and if you are passing through stick to I-10. Also drive it in the full light of day. My wife makes this drive all the time for family reasons and the last time she was delayed and had to drive it at night she was chased out of a small town by a truck load of racists.

Numlock isn't exaggerating much on this. I grew up on the New Orleans side and even there as the most "liberal city" do they have real bad issues systemic right up to the DA during my time there. My great grandfather was a quite famous and well regarded judge in the Federal Circuit court and in the Alexandria, LA courts before. Turns out he was also the head of the KKK for Louisiana in the 1920-40s. I'm white but grew up in a fairly desegregated smaller town. Growing up we all saw how the police treated the minorities in our friends group vs the rest of us. I don't know that it's possible for me to really every fully trust a police officer at this point given experiences growing up.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:

ask them why they want to give trump a complete monopoly on gun ownership since the only people that will have guns would be cops and military

Yeah this is my current point I bring up when I sometimes discuss guns with people at work (read: liberal academics). Basically I just say "why would you want to surrender arms while simultaneously fearing an authoritarian takeover?"

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Jihad Me At Hello posted:

I understand that. But maybe it's more like this sometimes... I have a chess club. We have 50 guys. 30 of the guys also go to a church. We don't talk about church on our chess forum. But at our dinners after church we talk about chess.

Chess is guns church is being racist turds. In this example.

Is it a religious chess club?

It's fair to call it a chess club that is primarily made up of religious members.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Pitch posted:

And in this analogy the church is Christian Identitarian and yeah I'm real suspicious of the other 20 of you.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Gom Jabbar posted:

Antifa and Proud Boys etc... (I don't see a difference in any of them, same, same)

Ugh.

Putting the attack on Ngo out there as a way to make a false equivalency between antifa and Nazis is also... Ugh.

Labelling Ngo as a gay Asian only and ignoring his role in producing racist inflammatory rhetoric and doxxing of antifa members and then using that to "both sides" antifa is some disgusting mental gymnastics.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


If you want to understand the difference between an ideology like antifa and a specific group like Proud Boys or Patriot Prayer then consider why antifa is currently even doing anything in the US in the first place.

If you're opposed to violence in general then being dismissive of antifa is expected. However if you just consider "violence bad" in a vacuum ignoring the reasons for the group to exist in the 1st place that's some oversimplification.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Jihad Me At Hello posted:

What makes antifa above criticism?

They aren't but pretending that both sides of a violent altercation are of equal blame / villainy is a dog whistle in this case.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Jihad Me At Hello posted:

Seems odd to me that not agreeing with antifa makes someone racist.

That Works posted:

If you want to understand the difference between an ideology like antifa and a specific group like Proud Boys or Patriot Prayer then consider why antifa is currently even doing anything in the US in the first place.

If you're opposed to violence in general then being dismissive of antifa is expected. However if you just consider "violence bad" in a vacuum ignoring the reasons for the group to exist in the 1st place that's some oversimplification.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Sten Freak posted:

Speech that meets the definition of protected is legal under the first amendment, however odious one might find it. If they are using violence to stem free speech they're a problem.

If Proud Boys were only speaking sure. They directly assaulted several LGBTQ in NYC earlier in the year.


Someone like Ngo is the equivalent of someone throwing gas on things but leaving the matches at home and wondering why they are included with the arsonists.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Because we're probably about to get there, people should understand this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

quote:

The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually seized or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper first described it in 1945—expressing the seemingly paradoxical idea that, "In order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must be intolerant of intolerance." The paradox of tolerance is important concept for thinking about which boundaries can or should be set on freedom of speech.


Sten Freak posted:

Absolutely, whoever is using violence to stem protected speech. The replies above yours suggest that violence is OK if it's enacted by a group which aligns with their political belief system.

I may be in the minority but I am very much in favor of violence against fascism even if it tries to dress up like something it is not. The end goal of fascism and our own white supremacist brand of it here cannot be allowed. If the state chooses to at best turn a blind eye to it and at worst outright support it then what alternative is left.

That Works fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Jul 31, 2019

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Shaocaholica posted:

Seems like a paradox to say someone else is (secretly) anti free speech and therefore their speech should be suppressed. Not saying anyone is wrong but this needs some backing evidence. Like "tee hee hee we'll use their free speech ideals against them!"

Not a secret

https://www.rightwingwatch.org/post/richard-spencer-the-alt-right-is-not-pro-free-speech/

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Sten Freak posted:

Where do you draw the line for this? I'm not judging you at all, just trying to understand your viewpoint regarding using violence.

Thanks. It's a valid question that I consider often. There's no single great answer because a lot of it has to do with the situation regarding how many people are actually there, is there a true risk of danger and are the authorities aiding the fascists (as observed in Portland and a few other places recently) or like in Boston where the police had a more neutral stance and fash were massively outnumbered.

For people like Ngo, Spencer, Alex Jones etc who aren't actually committing violence but constantly serve to agitate and provoke it I have a low threshold. Yes, anyone that assaults them will have to be prosecuted and should be but I also think it's for the greater good.

If we're going to be serious about 'never again' then it's going to get serious if fascism keeps getting bolder and more public.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


That's all a really difficult thing to think about because it's basically treading on the 1st amendment which I take even more seriously than the 2nd. But, see earlier post on Popper's tolerance paradox regarding 1A.

The problem is that if you're considering that sort of violence you're rapidly approaching a point of no return either individually or if more widespread as a society in full on civil breakdown. Why I have little sympathy for alt-right mouthpieces getting roughed up is because imagine all the normalization we have right now of the president "both sides" bullshit, now daily callout of nearly every press element except fox declared an 'enemy of the people' and us getting more and more used to the fact that we're engaging in child separation and concentration camp development.

Now take the low key acceptance of all of that as the norm and then pass it down a few years to a much more competent and intelligent authoritarian president and throw in some 9/11 level event or a prolonged serious economic downturn. It's going to be incredibly easy to drum up the rank and file to round up undesirables and silence unpatriotic dissent. Probably I'm too negative but its like you can just see everything building up towards something far worse.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Somebody Awful posted:

For those who have not seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7sQL9Rx4io


Didn't the original creator of the frog try to kill it off because racists took it over?

He won a lawsuit against infowars / Alex Jones for selling merch / using it on their site without permission. Could be other actions too but I recall that one.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

There are countries in Europe that manage to put reasonable restrictions on speech. I'm just saying; we were willing to take so many other things from Germany, maybe 'Don't be a nazi in public' could be one of them.

siegheil quietly in the corner or march with your 'malk' not-a-swastika' flag.

Slippery slope though. Would you trust the current government we have to pass a law that would restrict nazis but not any GOP arbitrary definition of another boogeyman like "socialist" at all?

I don't think that this is an issue the constitution/ interpretation of it can really solve at present either. When local authorities become willing to look the other way or outright assist those espousing fascist ideals the probability of vigilante events will only increase. I guess the only recourse after that is try not to get caught or hope for a judge that can read the bigger picture. Having a great grandfather who was a judge and in the KKK at the same time though puts a bit more of a pin in that one, especially since this administration is appointing many more lower level judges than the last. We're going to be dealing with that for the rest of our lives.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


It is protected.

I think the heart of it between what Sten Freak was saying before and asking me about yesterday ie "where to draw the line" is that I don't see the violence against nazis as a way to "stem free speech" but rather a natural consequence of exercising that speech.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Capn Beeb posted:

Ignoring fascists is an extremely privileged angle to take.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Javid posted:

I'm opposed to pretending throwing milkshakes at them, or going to one of their "protests" looking for a fight, are effective countermeasures.

Pointing out the assholes and collectively avoiding them (you know, like this thread is supposed to be about) is a much better approach.

Yes letting them have public marches and give lectures at universities and run unabated online in every major media and social network will cause a decline in the number of nazis because

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


I Demand Food posted:

so many are advocating authoritarianism in order to shut down views they disagree with.

Could you quote examples of this?

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Tremblay posted:

By all means, employ any and all forms of violence you feel necessary.

It's totally cool to call or hint that posters are Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, Nazi adjacent. In fact previous threads have shown that you can do so casually with absolutely no consequences.

So beyond those persons feelings being hurt were there consequences?

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Tremblay posted:

Likely you drive people whom otherwise would agree with the end, but disagree with your methods to go "gently caress off oval office, not my problem". Which I suspect isn't sustainable for a population as vulnerable, and small numbered.

If you're specifically referring to TFR then it's probably going down a bit more like this




Shaocaholica posted:

So can the idea of race supremacy exist without also being genocidal?

It can but gently caress those guys anyway.

This is kinda hitting a "actually it's ephebophilia" vibe on the whole thing. Not that you are supporting any of that, I see where your argument is, but given that both are reprehensible and lead to bad things, is splitting that hair as important?

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Tremblay posted:

Why yes, this comic doesn't depict a caricature at all! In fact, I feel the sudden urge to dust off my old german books. That does Work! Has this happened? Sure. Is that gross? God drat right it is. You're suggesting what? That anyone that didn't vote for Hildawg is now on the slippery slope of Nazism? Bold claim.

There isn't a point in rehashing all the culture war poo poo here. That conversation has way too many facets, a lot of nuance, and trying to do it on a loving forum with known bad faith actors isn't worth the time. So if that is your aim, as well as a plethora of other posters so be it. You won't solve anything, you won't convince anyone, you'll just score points with folks that are already saying the same poo poo.

You can climb down from that cross anytime.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


MohawkSatan posted:

gently caress off with your strawmen.


Pretty sure he can't if he's burning it.

I wanted to say something akin to that afterward but I felt it was a bit too harsh for the otherwise good spirit and discussion of the thread.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Tremblay posted:


Thinking that you all talk like insufferable twats

then?

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


FruitNYogurtParfait posted:

Too many people want the government to deal with The Bad Guys and everyone has a different definition of who The Bad Guys are. What happens when the government, with the power to suppress, is now in the control of people who think you're the bad guy? Like, idk, how a lot of people think the current administration is?

That Works posted:

Slippery slope though. Would you trust the current government we have to pass a law that would restrict nazis but not any GOP arbitrary definition of another boogeyman like "socialist" at all?



That Works
Jul 21, 2006


BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Literally "it would be just as bad to suppress the people advocating for wanton slaughter of the unclean as it is for them to suppress those people" Jesus Christ

You are 100% reading deadtear's comment wrong. Maybe chill pill and re-read with fresh eyes man idk.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Pardon me for mistaking "you can't trust the government to shut down genocidal maniacs, look what's happening now" with arguing that the government shouldn't get involved in shutting down genocidal maniacs, because look what the government is doing now

Do you personally trust the Trump administration to extend their power to be more strict against 1st amendment freedoms in a way that suppresses Nazis and no one else?

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


I Demand Food posted:

This. The police are not there to protect you. They have no duty to protect you. You can be stabbed half to death 10 feet away from them by the literal subject of an active manhunt and they can do absolutely nothing, not be so much as reprimanded for it, and their employer will argue you don't can't even sue them for it: https://nypost.com/2013/01/27/city-says-cops-had-no-duty-to-protect-subway-hero-who-subdued-killer/

Anyways, as for racist/authoritarian companies in the firearms industry, here are some things to throw out from spending the last half hour or so Googling:

Anderson Manufacturing released a special edition "Not a $h!thole Country" lower: https://www.theliberalgunclub.com/phpBB3/download/file.php?id=15514&sid=f19a6701cf5b0279b69da3a9e5a34cb8&mode=view

DE Guns not only employs a neo-Nazi but also stood up for him once called on it: https://www.omaha.com/news/nebraska...091349c2f9.html

Kel Tec hosted and had staff take pictures with George Zimmerman at their plant a month after his acquittal, despite not being open to the public and only giving tours by "special arrangement": https://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-visits-florida-gun-maker-kel-tec/story?id=20047743

T.Rex Arms is apparently run by a homophobic cult member https://www.tacxlife.com/post/169025183610

Thanks for the info here, many of these are news to me.

The DE Guns one is hilarious as gently caress:

quote:

Pringle said the report was false: “I have no contact with the National Alliance. I am not a dues-paying member. I do not receive any of their publications. I have never belonged to National Vanguard.”

quote:

DE Guns owner Derek Broman said: “As always, DE Guns has supported the first and second amendments with an egalitarian society. We do not have any political affiliation. We do not support fake or malicious news or their sources public or anonymous.”

then

quote:

A photo on the Facebook page of Lincoln resident David Pringle shows Pringle posing in front of a building that has the National Alliance symbol on it. The same photo accompanies a 2016 article written by Pringle on the National Vanguard site, and the National Vanguard site has a “David Pringle” tag. A June 2016 article listed Pringle as National Vanguard chief of staff. A David Pringle wrote an article for the site as recently as November 2017.

Anti-Fascist Action Nebraska’s post also included a photo of Pringle appearing with David Duke, former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan, along with social media posts supposedly written by Pringle. The posts show Pringle calling for funding for National Alliance in October of last year and promoting the organization shortly after (and apparently in response to) the violence at the white nationalist rally in Charlottesville, Virginia.





E: this is also timely to the current discussion


https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1157442803611426817

That Works fucked around with this message at 11:44 on Aug 3, 2019

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


BigDave posted:

Isn't that a pic of Hezbollah recruits? And doesn't Hezbollah hate ISIS because of the Sunni vs. Shiite thing?


I'm not expecting their primary customer base to have much nuance beyond 'ragheads bad, aloha snackbar'.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:

don't get me wrong cops doing their job and detaining a mass shooter without firing a shot is completely commendable, but it makes cops killing unarmed people because they were afraid of their lives in a hilarious light

Or ones that miss shooting a dog and kill a woman lying on the ground instead.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


Cyrano4747 posted:

The golden, guiding principle is just to keep the various fuckweasles' names off of the forum. Maybe it's in the tiny print in that second one, but that's obscured enough that you need to go looking out for it and it doesn't jump out on a scroll-by.

What got me going was the tweet PPJ quoted that started "<rear end in a top hat'S NAME>, <rear end in a top hat'S AGE> did some stuff and went some places and . . . " etc.

As an aside, goddamn twitter is a terrible format for that kind of thing. Who the gently caress wants to try and read multiple pages of highlighted text like that? I understand that it's become a defacto blogging site and that it has the audience etc. that people want to reach, but goddamn it's such a awful format and platform or that kind of thing.

It's really loving annoying to have woken up to find a headline less than 2 hours older than the shooting with "10 DEAD. WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE SHOOTER". I mean yeah gently caress those 10 dead people who cares about what they would have been.

Pisses me off to no end.

That Works
Jul 21, 2006


MRC48B posted:

On one hand, Privacy for the grieving families.

On the other hand, you are 100% correct. Focusing on the perp glorifies his actions. It turns his victims into statistics.

Yup, totally get that about the families. Would prefer that the restrictions we place on releasing their names would extend to the perpetrators far more strictly.

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That Works
Jul 21, 2006


ACLU doesn't get incredibly active in 2A stuff and what they do in 1A and other areas is very important to me so they get a good chunk of our charity donations.

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