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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



This is something I've been mulling for a while, and an outlet that I think TFR ultimately needs. Consider this thread an experiment. Hopefully it works, maybe it doesn't. Failure is always an option, and that just means we close it and marvel at how dumb I was for trying it.

Please, before you jump in, read this OP carefully and consider exactly what I'm saying. I assume a lot of people are going to have pre-conceived notions about what this thread is, and I would like to minimize that. If you read something in the OP that pisses you off, read the next paragraph because chances are I'm making a larger point.

The simple reality is that there are some lovely, lovely things in the firearms industry. Not all gun owners are lovely, not all gun companies are lovely, not all gun communities are lovely, but there is an unfortunately large number of them. Racists are a prominent example, and you see an unfortunate amount of dog-whistle advertising and the like directed at them. Take this as a prime example:



That's loving absurd and beyond blatant. There's no amount of "the totenkopf was a traditional symbol in the German armed forces dating back to the medieval period" that you can muster to defend tracing line for line the actual version used by the SS.

How you approach these issues as a gun owner and consumer of firearms related goods is a matter of personal choice. There are plenty of gun companies (and trainers, and clubs, etc) out there, however, and many people choose not to buy from them. This thread is going to be a place to discuss these issues and provide an easy resource that people can point to if they want to say that something is pretty loving awful.

Thread Rules:

quote:

1) Support any claims you make. It's not enough to say that a company is a bunch of racist, bigoted, assholes. Provide all the evidence you can muster. Make an effort post. You're building a case for why people should be aware of what they're doing. Note that this goes both ways. If you want to push back on someone's claim (see rule 3) do so with some actual effort.

2) Spell out very clearly why you think they're lovely. State the obvious. "Smith Enterprises used a recognizable symbol of a genocidal, anti-semetic regime to sell their rifles and when called on it doubled down" with included pictures of that sticker and their response to criticism, for example.

3) Be prepared for push back on it. Note that this doesn't make the poster who is pushing back an awful person themselves. Maybe you think that having a line of thin blue line gear makes them awful, maybe someone else doesn't. If it's not outright racism chances are it's not as clear cut as you might think.

4) Understand that we are not here to solve anything. You're not going to convince the internet or put them out of business. This is a resource. If someone reads your thoughts what they're doing and also thinks it's lovely, they won't buy there. There is no argument to be won here. If someone says "you shouldn't support this company because they donated to the RNC and I hate the republican party" we don't need a five page argument about that.

5) Avoid purity tests and witch hunts. There are plenty of big fish out there to fry without looking for the bad social media post made by the third cousin of the ex-wife of the CFO of Bushmaster. That example is hyperbole, but it's patterns of behavior not one off incidents that should raise the most eyebrows.

6) THIS IS NOT HELLDUMP.

7) There are going to be political issues in here. This is not, however, general political chat. Don't throw up the latest dumb tweet or most recent bout of insanity on Capital Hill.

8) If this thread isn't something you want, something you like, or if you don't like the discussion happening in it then refrain from posting in it. There's no rule that you have to read and participate in every thread in TFR. If the only thing you care about with firearm companies, for example, is how well the gear works then fine. That's your decision and you can keep spending your money as you choose.

I hope this works. Please don't make it lovely. We need this to be a resource, not a pit fight.

Edit:

Also if anyone has suggestions about how this thread should run, other rules, etc. go ahead and throw them in here. That's probably better discussed as a group than through a million bilateral PMs.

Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Aug 15, 2019

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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Repurposing this post as a repository of info about companies, gun personalities, etc

edit: Here's a good effort post about norse pagan iconography and how it's misused by racists. Is that person with the rune tattoo actually into norse paganism, or are they a white nationalist? Read here to find out.


Entity: Bravo Company
Class: Manufacturer, Supplier
Source: Internet.com
Severity: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Allegation posted:


the stars and bars are a poor lower engraving choice

BCM Response posted:

*Crickets*

Entity: Black Rifle Coffee Company
Class: Coffee?
Source: See Image
Severity:

Allegation posted:


Not great messaging on immigration. Also not really delivering on their promise.

Black Rifle Coffee Company Response posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4lp1YBxTsU
Released the above video, deleted post and changed imagery

Entity: Bushmaster
Class: Manufacturer
Source: Print Magazines
Severity:

Allegation posted:


lovely man-card campaign

Bushmaster Response posted:

campaign discontinued


Entity: DE Guns
Class: Supplier
Source: Lincoln Journal Star
Severity:

Allegation posted:

Gunsmith has strong ties to neo-Nazi group, National Alliance.

DE Guns Response posted:

They stand behind their man

Entity: DesertTech
Class: Manufacturer
Source: SPLC
Severity:

Allegation posted:

Member of fundamentalist Kingston Mormon Clan. Publicly disavows racism, although the clan believes in early Mormon beliefs with regard to skin tone.

Owner Response posted:

The company was founded in 2007 with an investment from family members. Young denied that The Order was racist or taught any form of bigotry, and said he had people of all races working for him.

“What we’re taught is to love our neighbor, that all people, all races no matter who they are … deserve to be loved,” he explained.

Still, he conceded that some Order members may have prejudiced beliefs because “in our organization people have freedom of choice.”

So what about polygamy? Is it a requirement to gain the highest levels of heaven?

“Yeah, I believe in it,” he said. “As far as how you end up in heaven, that’s up to God.”

Entity: DSArms
Class: Manufacturer
Source: DSArms
Severity:

Allegation posted:


FAL Manufacturer that's also WAY into Rhodesia

DSArms Response posted:

*crickets*

Entity: GlockStore
Class: Supplier
Source: WaNaziWatch
Severity:

Allegation posted:

Derek Magill, the owner allegedly has strong ties to White Supremacist Group, Identify Evropa, can't spell. Former staffer alleged pattern of intentionally passing on qualified candidates who are not white.

GlockStore Response posted:

*Cease and Desists Lowtax*


Entity: Griffin Armament
Class: Manufacturer
Source: M4Carbine.net
Severity:

Allegation posted:


Engraved suppressors with "Front Towards Arabs".

Griffin Response posted:

*pending*

Entity: IraqVeteran8888
Class: Internet Weirdo
Source: His username
Severity: ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Allegation posted:

Not great choice in numbers for his username.


Entity: Khar Arms
Class: Manufacturer
Source: Vox
Severity: you do you boo

Allegation posted:

Run by the Moonies

Khar Response posted:

*pending*


Entity: Khar Arms
Class: Manufacturer
Source: Vox
Severity: you do you boo

Allegation posted:

Run by the Moonies

Khar Response posted:

*pending*


Entity: Larry Vickers
Class: Internet Wierdo
Source: YouTube
Severity:

Allegation posted:

REALLY Into Rhodesia, Also This:

Larry Vickers posted:

For $525, You Can Learn How To Fight Terrorists (Muslims Need Not Apply) - Talking Points Memo posted:

I ask if people of Middle Eastern descent take his class. “That’s the one area we watch like a hawk,” Vickers replies. “Everybody is very wary that Abdul Sheikh Muhammed or something wants to take the class. Generally we’ll tell them thanks but no thanks. We’ll tell them the class is full.”

Asked how he weeds outs these potential participants, Vickers says he does it by name alone: “We don’t want them to take our training and find out that they are a member of ISIS or a sympathizer.”

The LAV Response posted:

*pending*


Entity: Palmetto State Armory
Class: Supplier, Manufacturer
Source: Them
Severity:

Allegation posted:


Makes poor choices for lower engraving. Very poor.


Entity: SCCY
Class: Manufacturer
Source: CAIR
Severity:

Allegation posted:


Promotional material indicating their product is good for shooting muslims. Button probably existed, hard to tell if this was created by the MFR or someone being clever with the SCCY branding.

SCCY Response posted:

no acknowledgement

Entity: Smith Enterprises
Class: Manufacturer
Source: YouTube
Severity:

Allegation posted:


Usage of iconography strongly associated with the worst Nazi units around. Don’t seem to care about this iconography's association with the Nazis.

Smith Enterprise Response posted:

Looks like they dropped the deaths head on their site?

Entity: Spikes Tactical
Class: Manufacturer
Source: Newsweek
Severity: :hitler:

Allegation posted:

Overt imagery of shooting antifa protesters, something something about libturds. Also their logo looks like two dicks swatting at a spider.

Spikes Response posted:

Foxtrot Uniform


Entity: T-Rex Arms
Class: Internet Wierdo
Source: Christian Pundit
Patheos
Severity: :chloe:

Allegation posted:

Homophobe, thinks the only utility women have is their baby making utility.

The TRex Response posted:

*pending*



Entity: Troy Industries
Class: Manufacturer, Training Group
Source:TTAG
Severity: :chloe:

Allegation posted:

Attempted to employ anti advocate, Jody Weis for their training division, Oh yeah and Dale Monroe, the FBI Sniper who may have shot an innocent baby holding woman.

Troy Response posted:

Looks like Troy Asymmetric went tits up.


Entity: AmmoSupplyWarehouse
Class: Supplier
Source: Their own website and ads
Severity: :hitler: :hitler: :hitler:


Their response when called out on the Nazi imagery:

Armacham posted:

I emailed them about it just to be sure



Yep they're nazis

Yeah that's probably a cleaner way of doing it if you're willing to update the OP given the lower amount of content.




The "Good Ones"
It's an industry where the default position is at best distasteful to liberals and leftists if not outright monstrous. We want to point out when there's an actual affirmative case that spending your dollars someplace isn't just "least bad", it might be actually... good? In this section we'll point out which companies profess an outright progressive stance on firearms culture.

Entity: Rocket Armory
Class: Small batch manufacturer (looks like right now they just offer stripped lowers).
Source: https://rocket-armory.com/
Niceness level: :angel:

From their site:
"As an organization, we eschew the macho, hyper-masculine, military-inspired nature of the modern small-arms trade. We strive to be welcoming to women, racial minorities, the LGBT+ community, and other like-minded people. To that end, Rocket Armory partners with organizations who share our vision of a gun industry grounded in camaraderie instead of division."

They have cool "Liberal Gun Owner" and "Snowflake" rollstamps, and the default rocket logo is pretty cool too.

2020 panic buy note: Like a lot of places, they appear to be sold out of all of the Gun Things right now. But looks like you can buy apparel and merch and keep them in your thoughts for a future build.

Entity: Off Color Decals
Class: Small batch manufacturer of decals/patches/stickers that are LGBTQA+, race, and class-positive.
Source: hhttps://www.etsy.com/shop/OffColorDecals
Niceness level: :bustem:

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Doc_Awesome posted:

I think a good rule for this thread (and any other heated topic threads) would be that as soon as the thread gets out of hand with multiple people breaking rules, everyone who posted in it gets a 6 month ban at a minimum regardless of their involvement in the thread.

In my experience that kind of blanket punishment just breeds resentment and encourages bad actors to stir the pot in hopes that they will take down a bunch of other people with them.

If things go totally pear shaped I'll lean towards on closing the thread temporarily until I have the time to really go through the break down and figure out what needs to be done. That's not ideal, but it at least helps freeze the tit-for-tat that escalates everything.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Jihad Me At Hello posted:

Thanks for pointing me to this thread. I mentioned the 3 percenters in the other thread.

I think I was just frustrated at seeing content that I'm interested online, then later in a video the guy talking about guns is wearing a 3 percenter t-shirt. I'll happily never watch anything from that person again. I don't want the content removed, I'd rather know who these people are than not.

It's just a gross mark on pro gun people.

Yeah, it sucks when that happens.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



CainFortea posted:

It seems to me that the point of this thread isn't "court of law" level of burden of proof. I assumed it was more about sharing info about possible companies we might buy from and any things they've done that we may find problematic.



Ultimately it is about making informed choices about what you buy. Like I said in the OP, for some people the political stances of companies are incredibly important. For others less so.

I asked for concrete stuff to point because of issues like the SCCY thing and because it makes everything much clearer than just repeatedly citing the same thing we read on a forum a year ago.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



One other note:

I know we’re on the Internet and sarcasm and being flippant is the coin of the realm. Please avoid it here. It competes guts any real conversation by making it easier to dismiss the ideas being conveyed and eliciting stronger reactions.

Just, like, use your words. Not everything needs to be a burn, joke, or meme.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Cyrano4747 posted:

One other note:

I know we’re on the Internet and sarcasm and being flippant is the coin of the realm. Please avoid it here. It competes guts any real conversation by making it easier to dismiss the ideas being conveyed and eliciting stronger reactions.

Just, like, use your words. Not everything needs to be a burn, joke, or meme.



Miso Beno posted:

I added more words to make it more mean

also removed a bit about canadian walls keeping me of canada this weekend out cos it wasn't as amusing as I wanted it to be

Seriously, don't do this in here. Let's keep this thread a little serious so there can be no misconstruing of intent or what people are saying.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



the yeti posted:

This kind of inadvertently crystallizes something I was grasping at when I PM'd you and couldn't find the phrasing for, that while this is an invaluable conversation to have, attempts to re-litigate exactly what something means or whether it's racist/fascist or not are gonna turn this thread into a slog.

I agree that the potential is there, which is why I want this to be pretty much just serious posting.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Cyrano4747 posted:

I agree that the potential is there, which is why I want this to be pretty much just serious posting.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



By the way, I know this thread went on a bit of a derail and I kept my distance on purpose to see how it would play out.

This thread doesn't need to to be the place for discussing broad political philosophy all day every day, but pretty much everything between this post: https://forums.somethingawful.com/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=3894692#post497033149

and this post:

https://forums.somethingawful.com/newreply.php?action=newreply&threadid=3894692#post497033149

are great examples of level headed, respectful, discussion of a heated issue. Due to the nature of this thread we aren't going to be able to avoid discussions like this on occasion. When someone says "this company is bad because they support this thing" and someone else asks "why is that thing bad?" we're going to get into the weeds on that issue a bit. As long as we can have that discussion in a way that doesn't descend into poo poo flinging, that's fine.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Oh, and if someone ends up catching a sixer because of a joke or something, that's kind of how this thread is going to roll. It's kind of a "no fun allowed" zone because otherwise you have people making what they think are witty light hearted jokes and other people reading it in deadly ernest because they're in full blown internet politics mode. If you want to make jokes or bullshit go to almost every other thread in this forum.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Yond Cassius posted:

You're thinking of a Spike's lower, not PSA.



It disappoints me because it's just such a lazy cheap shot. If they'd gone the "offending everyone equally" route and made something lefty-oriented it would've been much better. Their "Crusader" lower goes "PAX PACES // BELLUM // DEUS VOLT", so why not have that third option be "ANTIFA" or "VIVA LA REVOLUCION" or even "RESPECT MY PRONOUNS"?

We can probably guess.


Miso Beno posted:

Which unicorn lower? I wish the PSA one didn't have the stupid snowflake libturds poo poo on it cos unicorns are my fuckin jam.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

By the way, I feel real dumb right now. This probate was a fuckup on my part. I remembered the lower but forgot that they actually said "libturd" on it and totally misread what Miso was saying. I thought he was making a snarky comment about wanting a lower form them and not wanting liberal poo poo on it or whatever. Like, I thought HE was saying "stupid snowflake libturds" to be edgy and not quoting the goddamned lower.

My bad, bad shoot.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Problematic Soup posted:

Jesus gently caress. I can't blame you for not wanting to carry as a PoC. I have no relevant experience as a white person, and LGBT people are not exactly loved by bigots, but we're not viewed as implicitly threatening by most folks, like PoC can be. Maybe get the permit as a precaution so you are legal if something occurs where you feel that a specific risk that pops up outweighs the risk from cops?

Police have gone kinda nutters in the last ten years. I'm white and law abiding as gently caress and even I have had bad experiences with them. I had the whitest fender bender ever (white history professor in a Jetta side swiped by a white, middle aged nurse in an Accord) and we needed to get a cop to get an accident report. That's it. We disagreed on who was at fault and both just went "welp, get the report, let the insurers take care of it."

The dude who responded was screaming at us for moving the vehicles to the side of the road because it "destroyed evidence" and after questioning us was boot-camp-stereotype yelling in our faces about how one of us was lying, he was going to bring charges on one of us for lying to a police officer, plus he was going to bring insurance fraud charges on us, and one of us better fess up before things got REALLY SERIOUS.

Eventually I asked if I was being detained and said I needed to call my lawyer if I was and he huffed off to his car and tore off two copies of the accident report. It was the most surreal poo poo ever.

I just assume if I had been anything other than elmer glue white I'd have ended up in handcuffs.

edit: the crazy poo poo is he apparently didn't do whatever lookup they do to figure out you have a carry permit. I wasn't carrying (on my way home from an academic workplace with "lol are you loving kidding me" rules on that) but fully expected to have to give him the "here's my permit, I'm not carrying" speech. I've done that a few times at traffic stops etc. Nope. Never mentioned it.

edit 2: and no, I wasn't giving him any attitude or whatever other excuse people usually say you must have been doing to get a reaction out of the cops.

edit 3: all of my POC friends never suggest that. They just go "oh, sounds normal" when I tell that story. Meanwhile my wife's cousins all insist I must have been "giving him lip" because that's the only explanation.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Speak plainly in this thread. It’s going to prevent a lot of misunderstandings, needless arguments, and acrimony. Don’t assume knowledge or familiarity that people might have.

I have no doubt that short hands will develop but until something becomes well understood within the context of the thread take that time to define things and spell out exactly what you are talking about.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

I get that, but here's the thing about that:

Capn Beeb posted:

Big same with this post.

I understand what you're saying, but I still want to keep things pretty clear in this thread. There are lots people that aren't as dialed in on these things as you all are, and the conversation needs to be as accessible as possible. Just humor me on this. I don't think anyone is going to take this as a sign of respect of legitimizing them.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



That was a bad thread that was a bad idea and handled poorly. It brought out the worst kind of posting. If someone was to do something similar now it certainly wouldn’t go down that way.

I’m not going to make any excuses for it but I’m also not going to go back and re-mod poo poo that happened a year and a half ago.

If you see someone doing poo poo now report them and if you think it’s part of a broader pattern that I haven’t noticed PM me and throw a few links my way to help me see it.

Edit: keep in mind that any probates you see in that thread we’re literally the result of an online RNG and a week was the default length iirc. It was a dumb, bad thread.

Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 10:52 on Jul 30, 2019

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Internet Wizard posted:


Then there are the Oathkeepers, a bunch of cops and vets and similar types who declared that they were sworn to protect the United States from Obama and have been shockingly silent on crimes from the presidents before and after him. Pretty sure they also offered to help hide and defend from the cops the republican congressmen who fled the state capital in Oregon so the state couldn’t pass any legislation for a while.

Threepers and other militia types that wrap themselves in false patriotism overlap pretty heavily in that group.

Then there’s the openly white supremacist groups like the Proud Boys and Patriot Prayer and Identity Evropa or whatever they’ve rebranded to.

This is exactly what I was thinking of and a big part of why I want precision was the three percenter conversation in another thread that helped kick start this one. These different movements have different core ideologies (although they overlap and people move between them) and different root causes.

This is important because when you just throw them in one bucket it makes it way too easy to get into semantic weeds about whether this particular sub group has racial animosity as a core tenant or if it’s mostly about styling themselves as a pro-constitution militia and some members overlap with the racist crowd. Getting into that obscures the issue that they can be problematic on their own terms and over simplifies the objections that lots of people have.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



NerdyMcNerdNerd posted:

It's also worth noting that a lot of these groups ( so far as I remember ) rely on obfuscation and confusion to muddle things.

The rest of this post is spot on, but I think it’s worth keeping in mind the specific context of this thread. I think there is some real value in laying out who these groups are, what their main thrusts are, who they are involved with in other organizations, and where the overlap is.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Jihad Me At Hello posted:

I thought the whole point of this thread was to call out the racists. I also thought doing so in a concise manner was to avoid misunderstandings.

Exactly. Sorry if I've articulated that poorly.

It also never hurts to spell out exactly why lovely people are lovely. You know, what people were doing early on in this thread when they were saying "hey, these glock accessory assholes are tied in with that Evropa group which are known white supremacists, here's some tweets that show it and here's a run down on how lovely that group is." It's not something that needs to happen ever time, just at least once so when we're on page 50 of this thing and people are talking about the Nazi glock guys and someone comes through and says "oh how do we know they're nazis, you all think anyone to the right of bernie is a fascist" there's an easy explanation to just point them to.

You know, the sort of poo poo that can get edited into an OP, a glossary of shitheads if you will, as things progress.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



CainFortea posted:

But as pointed out above, the person saying this is specifically going to be trying to muddy the waters. This has happened before, where the bars of what counts get's constantly shifted around and definitions redone until the cows come home.

How can we define these groups and companies when their supporters here will actively try to resist letting us define them? Just put up our case and then ignore the posters when they start asking for membership cards? Argue with them until the thread devolves into a shitshow?

Let’s cross that bridge when we get to it. I’d rather see where this thread takes us and try to make it as good as it can be than bog down from the get go worrying about how it might gently caress up. Let’s at least try to source stuff to begin with, spell out the connections and explain why things that might seem innocuous at first blush are actually lovely, and see where it takes us.

Maybe it turns into a poo poo show. If so I’ll admit it, cop to bring naive, and admit you were right. As I said way earlier (the OP I think) if that happens I lock it, figure talk to a bunch of people to figure out some ideas on what the gently caress went wrong, and reopen or reboot with tweaks depending on how bad it sucked.

This thread isn’t a perfectly formed final product that can never change. It’s going to be a work in progress.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



”Kanine" posted:

You're a loving idiot.

Please don’t do this. We’re having a loving amazing string of intelligent, thoughtful, insightful posts about hosed up issues. Posts with nuance and depth that engage with what the other person is saying and refute claims they disagree with in. I get that it’s tempting but so far people have been putting a lot of effort into articulating what they’re thinking about and opposing what they think is wrong. I’d like to continue that for as long as possible.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Jihad Me At Hello posted:

What makes antifa above criticism?


Jihad Me At Hello posted:

Seems odd to me that not agreeing with antifa makes someone racist.


Jihad Me At Hello posted:

Who is saying they're the same? All I'm hearing is if you disagree with racist groups AND antifa then you're a racist and that makes no sense to me.


Jihad Me At Hello posted:

Are you saying that if you argue with antifa then you approve of the alt right?

This isn’t a Wizard of Oz revival. We don’t need all these straw men.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



You know what, you’re driving the thread in circles with disingenuous bullshit. Your rap sheet makes me give you zero benefit of the doubt.

Don’t post in here again.

Edit: talking about Jihad Me At Hello. Just making that utterly unambiguous.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Jihad Me At Hello posted:

Then ban me, I'm not baiting anyone. Trying to have a discussion.

Or tell me what I'm doing wrong because I don't get it.

(USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)

For those of you following along at home, the poo poo I quoted above with the wizard of oz joke is just a litany of arguing points people weren't making and putting words in other people's mouths. You know, textbook straw man. Not even the typical D&D very loose definition of straw man, like really loving obvious. Also the sort of disingenuous "just asking questions" while trying to force people to argue against themselves for him that is a hallmark of assholes.

Many people have told me in the past that I am terrible at spotting posters doing poo poo like this in bad faith, and I believe them. So when that stands out to noted dummy me like tits on a T-Rex I'm just going to assume it's blindingly obvious.

Don't do that poo poo here. If you ask a question, and someone answers it, engage with their answer. If it's not quite the answer you're looking for - if you think they misunderstood your question - explain why. If you just don't like their answer well . . . I guess either talk about that or just accept that you don't like their answer.

If someone genuinely wants to know why antifa isn't morally equivalent to white nationalists or how it's possible to say one is better than the other while not condoning their tactics, read back over the last few pages. There was a lot of good effort put into writing a lot of interesting thoughts about exactly this topic.

fake edit: also if your rap sheet looks like that maybe. . . . I dunno. . . don't post? Or at the very least have the self awareness to just reboot with a new account that doesn't have conversational n-bombs on it in the last decade?

Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 22:38 on Jul 31, 2019

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



alnilam posted:

Would a story about a racist local gun shop owner be appropriate here?

Sure, if nothing else it might get an interesting conversation going. Hell it was kind of the point of this thread way back in the dark dim past of seven pages ago.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



To give you an idea just how terminally online thr 4chan kekistan thing is, the “kek” part comes from world of Warcraft.

WoW is roughly split into two factions, Horde and Alliance. To increase the sense of a real split they implemented a very simple language filter so when you see one talk in a public zone it’s gibberish that kinda looks like a foreign language.

“Kek” is what you see if someone types “lol”.

So it started out as a bunch of terminally online video game nerds (the kind of people with strong opinions re: “ethics in video game journalism”) imagining themselves part of an online nation. That group skews heavily white and male

Now the crazy part? Remember Something Awful’s awkward teenage years of hyper edgy jokes and dorm room libertarianism being the dominant politics? 4Chan was started by an SA poster who thought moderation was bullshit and, like, against freedom of speech, man. Ostensibly it was for anonymous, no holds barred anime discussion. You know, for those of you suffering under the injustice of ADTRW ca fifteen years ago. Of course the kinds of turds who even in the early-mid 00s were getting bans for racism went “yeah gently caress the mods! No masters no gods!” and went over where they could make “ironic” jokes about how white people are just naturally smarter, look at the bell curve, it’s science, man.

So, yeah. We’re not to blame for that poo poo like some have argued, but it’s literally the section of the Internet cast out by the power of and robust (even by the standards of fifteen years ago) modding.

So if you want to understand kekistan imagine the Internet as run by the hard core permabanned section of the leper’s colony.

Really good thread on it here if you want to dig in and go for a ride: https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3719989

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Oh hey. It’s the argument.

What you’re all getting at is that speech can be protected but it doesn’t need to be supported.

That Works posted:

It is protected.

I think the heart of it between what Sten Freak was saying before and asking me about yesterday ie "where to draw the line" is that I don't see the violence against nazis as a way to "stem free speech" but rather a natural consequence of exercising that speech.

Yup.

Every mod on SA has gotten angry PMs about how they’re suppressing free speech when they hand a sixer (it’s always over a sixer - never something longer) out because they don’t want a debate about the problematic way rape is used in anime in that middle of the thread of funny sports blooper gifs.

You have a constitutionally protected right to say some pretty dire, hosed up poo poo.

The constitution doesn’t protect you from me thinking you’re an rear end in a top hat, or from you suffering the consequences of that. Those consequences might mean you get fired if I’m your boss, might mean you eat a ban if I’m your mod, and it might mean you get punched if I’m pissed and violent.

My actions also have consequences. You being an rear end doesn’t protect me from facing legal problems if I assaulted you, and if you and your rear end in a top hat friends boycott my business that’s a thing I have to live with.

Where things get awkward is with some platforms becoming so dominant that being removed effectively takes your best way do disseminate your message. If I get kicked off Twitter it’s a lot harder for me to push my agenda, whatever it may be. This isn’t a free speech problem, though, it’s a problem with us putting so much of our modern communications infrastructure in the hands of a very small number of private companies. That’s a separate issue, but it doesn’t make Twitter banning someone a violation of their civil liberties.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



45 ACP CURES NAZIS posted:

gently caress off

Cut this poo poo out. We're up to ten pages of actual good discussion. If you disagree with something explain why.

You know, like you did in the very next goddamned post.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



That Works posted:

You are 100% reading deadtear's comment wrong. Maybe chill pill and re-read with fresh eyes man idk.

This is sound advice for everyone in this thread. Catching up on it (while sitting in a bar) there is a poo poo ton of people responding to things other people didn't actually say, or reading other issues into posts that frankly don't seem to touch on what they're getting up in arms about.

There have also been some really good, well thought posts that have gotten completely glossed over in shouting matches about who (in this thread specifically, talking about the posters in it) is and isn't a nazi or pro-nazi or an enemy of the constitution or whatever.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I mean I don't think governments should exist so no but also if I have to have one I'd like for them to treat the far right the way they currently treat anyone left of center

If your over-arching problem is with the US government I think it's a fundamentally different issue than calling out racist bullshit in the firearms community.

edit: I'm not saying you don't have legitimate problems, but I'm not sure this is the specific venue for them.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I was being a little flip there because "is there a government you'd like to emulate" is a question that I just say no to, regardless of the context, but that's not the main thrust of what I've been arguing about here anyway

I've got to be honest, I've read over the last few pages pretty carefully and frankly I"m not sure what the main thrust of what you're arguing has been. I get that

1) you're against alt-right/racist/homophobic/etc assholes
2) you feel threatened by them because of who you are
3) you think punching them in the face is a pretty OK response
4) you think there are structural, systematic problems that make punching them a superior option to waiting for the government to shut them up.


Beyond that I"m frankly confused.

I know I caught some poo poo for it early in the thread, but this is exactly why I said that people should try to express themselves clearly and plainly.

What I've seen in the last couple pages is a handful of posters who broadly agree on the thesis of "neo-fascit racist fucks suck" getting into an argument about tactics and strategy.

These are important issues, and I'm loath to just draw a line under it and say "talk about something else," but I also don't think its in the wheel house of this thread.

fake edit: I want to be very specific that I'm talking about the last couple of pages, and in particular the exchanges surrounding Benghazi and Parfait. I'm aware of what led us here.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Also,

BENGHAZI 2 posted:

Work on reading, friend.

That poo poo doesn't help. I"m not just singling Benghazi out on this, they are just the most recent example of it and easy to quote right now.

It's a comment that exists only to inflame and gently caress up the discussion.

If you think someone is misinterpreting you, misunderstanding you, or is misrepresenting what you are saying spell out that you disagree with their analysis and say why. This don't need to be a wall of text. Just a sentence or two of "I think you misread me, what I mean is this. . . "

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I'm going to apologize for calling you a Nazi, too, I think your opinions are incredibly dumb but I don't think you're a Nazi supporter

This is actually something that is probably worth discussing.

I've gotten a lot of eye-rolls in TFR before for insisting that Nazi isn't just a catch-all for "lovely, right-wing, even racist things." It's a nuclear option that immediately casts the person you're talking about as completely beyond the pale and makes anyone who supports them the worst kind of scum.

When you're talking about people putting padlocks in socks to go "counter protest" antifa that's one thing. I mean, we could sit down and have the whole seminar discussion about "how do we really define fascism?" but that's a fight I gave up on a long time ago.

Where it gets to be really unfortunate is when the label gets applied to simply "people I disagree with, even strongly."

The last couple of pages is a prime example of why it can be such a problem because we have people who broadly agree on things like racism (and the various other -isms and -phobias that are currently in focus), the hosed nature of modern american politics, creeping authoritarianism, etc. getting into a circular firing squad and denouncing each other as nazis for not taking their specific approach to the issue.

This is also a problem that is historically a very real problem for the political left. I mean, gently caress, read up on any actual revolution. The revolution eating its own isn't just a saying or a trope.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't disagree, even forcefully, but stop and consider the words you are using and what they mean. Consider how you would react to it. There is a pretty far distance between "I think your opinion about use of force against neo-fascists is wrong" or even "I think your'e an idiot" or even "I think you're a dangerous idiot" and "I think you're a neo-fascist sympathizer, if not an outright neo-fascist."

This is important because the people on the receiving end of that react viscerally, dig in, and then we have a knock-down drag out between people who actually agree on some fundamental issues.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



I mean, gently caress, let’s all reflect that gun culture includes a national advocacy group that uncritically published a cartoon about illegal immigrant thugs with brow dudes throwing gang signs and shooting while suburbanites. Or that we have to deal with gun companies that think the SS Totenkopf is totally A-OK as a corporate symbol.

Again, I’m not saying that the other issues that have been raised in the last ten pages aren’t important or significant, but after a certain point you kind of have to say “ok we disagree re:punching people at protests but check out THIS hosed up poo poo that the actual assholes are doing.”

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



stealie72 posted:

I, too am curious about this. And also would like to move beyond the past few pages of CSPAM.

I've purchased federal bulk before, and I thi k their main evil is being part of massive conglomerate.

To thr best of my knowledge none of the major players have done anything nuts.

Freedom seems to have a hard on for patriotic themed holidays and general .mil/first responder worship but nothing that really pops as crazy.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



mlmp08 posted:

Well, so far it’s mostly PSA, Spike’s Tactical, the NRA in general and NRAtv people/companies in particular, Black Rifle Coffee (lmao), some super weirdo evangelical/apocalypse gun store I came across in in Waco TX, Gaston Glock’s son, GruntStyle, and seceral other fashy places whose names escape me at the moment.

So an unfortunately big deal.

Also my lovely local store way back when where the owner said all looters should’ve been shot on sight post-Katrina.

Speaking of which if someone wants to put together a list of lovely companies / orgs with links to the posts where people discussed why they suck I’ll put it in that OP

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006




Don't do this poo poo.

It puts everyone on edge and turns conversations lovely.

Want to make this post? Just say "hey, they seem to have a lot of Muslim employees, I don't know that they're Islamophobic" or whatever. Then if people want we can have the conversation about whether the broader messaging of a company is problematic and lovely regardless of if they have a few of who they consider 'the good ones' on the payroll, or if other poo poo is being taken out of context, or whatever.

Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 14:58 on Aug 3, 2019

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Two Ton 21 posted:

I think you need to apply this to the OG poster though. "Oh they are racist and hate Islamic people!"

And what do you mean 'the good ones', that sounds really close to saying in plain language they hire "Uncle Toms".

That is exactly what I was saying. it was an example of an argument not my opinion of the matter.

And no thr original poster wasn’t a problem because he was accusing a company of lovely stuff.

If you can’t see the difference between “I think this company is full of racists” and “you, SA poster I’m talking to, are a racist” then this isn’t the thread for you.

Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



The bundle of TNT in its talons is always what gets me.

That lobster? Could just be a fellow traveler along with the animal rights lady.

That owl? loving terrorist.

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Cyrano4747
Sep 25, 2006



Party Plane Jones posted:

guy was at a trump rally in cinci less than a week ago so you tell me

From the other thread re: thr ohio shooter.

Anyone have info on this?

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