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MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Cyrano4747 posted:

Speak plainly in this thread. Itís going to prevent a lot of misunderstandings, needless arguments, and acrimony. Donít assume knowledge or familiarity that people might have.

I have no doubt that short hands will develop but until something becomes well understood within the context of the thread take that time to define things and spell out exactly what you are talking about.

I'm breaking my self imposed exile/break/whatever from TFR to call this poo poo out. Speaking plainly and clearly will catch a probation. Calling out a fascist for being fascist, some fuckwad for defending racist bullshit, an rear end in a top hat for supporting no bullshit concentration camps, or whatever the gently caress else, is literally against your own rules in this thread. "Speak plainly (but only about things you're allowed to)' isn't speaking plainly. NerdyMcNerdNerd, and CainFortea are pointing towards this. Beeb's been all but screaming it for years. I've all but left TFR because I'm loving sick of needing to tip toe around poo poo unless I want to hear more decorum or 'stop with the politics' bullshit.

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MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Let's have some plain talk.

On one side of my family, my Oma survived the Holocaust due to a paperwork error. Her mother was listed as Romanian instead of Romani. Opa was a runner for the Dutch Resistance as a boy. On the other, my grandfather and grandmother are both loving Residential School survivors, who made it through via sheer stubbornness, though not without scars. I am a mistake of luck and chance. Both sides of my family have survived attempts to genocide their people due to luck or sheer stubbornness. So when I see poo poo like this

Gom Jabbar posted:

not Antifa and Proud Boys etc... (I don't see a difference in any of them, same, same)

I end up being loving livid. Because that idea that between 'genocidal fascists' and 'people willing to fight genocidal fascists' needs something in between is the most spineless horseshit out there. You know what the middle ground between fighting genocidal fascists and being genocidal fascist is?

It's being okay with genocidal fascists. It's not opposing them at every turn. And that poo poo has and will get a lot of innocent people dead. It's the most cowardly option out there. You don't even need to be okay with using violence against Nazis. But the instant you start equating the people who fight back and the people who's end goal is murdering everyone not like them, then you need to step back an take a loving look in the mirror, because you're saying you're more okay with genocide than with punching a fuckin' racist fascist shitbag and trying to prevent their bullshit from getting normalized.

And hey, this ain't even a right versus left thing. This is a 'why in the gently caress are you okay with Nazis at all' thing. And I've got an inkling (I'll have to ask Opa about it) but I bet the 'people who fight back are as bad or worse' poo poo was a real good way to tell when someone was going to end up being a collaborator.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jul 31, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Gom Jabbar posted:

I see them both as a bunch of idiots but hey make up your own story about me to make yourself feel good.

So at best you're just a shitbag, and at worse you're closer to being a Nazi sympathizer than someone that would stop a loving Nazi.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Gom Jabbar posted:

Yup, not supporting a group that attacked a gay Asian guy makes you a shitbag Nazi.

You mean Andy Ngo, shitbag known for doxxing left wing activists, editor of Quilette, where the study of phrenology is apparently alive and well, and Islamopobe asshat? That gay Asian guy? The one that is thought to have intentionally provoked anti fascist activists?

The one who helped a Nazi dox another journalist, and literally get them on a kill list of actual terrorist organization, Atomwaffen?

Edit: also oh no, a known shitbag got beaten up, it's not like Nazis have been committing murders right? Oh wait. They have. And they've killed a pile of people.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 09:57 on Jul 31, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Shaocaholica posted:

Lol that's cartoon villain dumb.

Seriously, it's a massive huge loving lol if anyone ever thought the goddamned GENOCIDAL FASCISTS were ever pro-free speech. It's not that anti-fascist groups are against free speech. They're opposed to Nazis. If lovely methods are needed to stop Nazis (violence, deplatforming, deprivation rights, etc) are needed to stop Nazis, that sucks. But the other side's GOALS are violence, deplatforming, deprivation of rights, etc. One side is trying using them as a means to stop vastly worse poo poo. The other side has them not only as the means, but the goals. This is not to say criticism isn't allowed. Hell, it's needed. If those tactics get applied to literally anyone that isn't a LITERAL GENOCIDAL FASCIST, then they've been abused, and that poo poo needs called out, and rectified.

Now I don't even hide supporting the usage of violence to stop, once again, if this isn't getting through to people, ACTUAL GENOCIDAL GODDAMNED FASCISTS. Opa taught me there were two ways to make a Nazi good: one they could give it up, and start immediately working on atoning, or at least accept the punishment for their crimes. The other is you hold them in a puddle until the bubbles stopped. Yes this gets into the paradox of tolerance, helpfully linked by That Works a few posts above. To have a tolerant society you must be intolerant of intolerance.

And here's a big rub for me, from you 'both sides bad' or 'violence to stop free speech bad' folks: What in the gently caress are you doing to stop ACTUAL GENOCIDAL FASCISTS? Because not actively opposing them leads to ACTUAL GENOCIDE AND FASCISM.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Phone posting at work, but Beau of the Fifth Colum has a fantastic video on YouTube about the 'guns as a symbol of (toxic) masculinity' topic. I'll hunt it out when I get home if nobody has linked it by then.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Can't say I'm gonna complain. Cyrano, you did a good thing.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


As an aside, this is an excellent example of one of the better ways to oppose fascists and racists. Deplatform them. Shut down the methods they can use to spread their bullshit. Smash their megaphones, delete and report videos, ban them from forums, etc. If they can't find anywhere to spread their message where they won't immediately be shut down or shouted over then they can't recruit.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747



Thanks dude. Watch this video folks. It's good, it's important, and it is very relevant to this thread.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Javid, here's the thing. Ignoring fascists does not do poo poo. That just lets them spread their bullshit. If you're just fine with them spreading fascism, then by all means, ignore away. If you're fine with fascism spreading, then you're in support of fascism, albeit not talking an active role in spreading it.

If, on the other hand, you aren't okay with passively assisting (and I cannot stress this enough) GENOCIDAL loving FASCISTS, then you must confront them. Violence is obviously the last choice, but it is a choice. If you're not okay with violence, then use other means. But no matter what, this is not just ignoring them.

So here's the rub: are you okay with fascists and genocide? Then by all means, ignore them. Just know that in choosing not to oppose them, you are letting them work towards their goals. You've still made a choice, just it was the most spineless one of all.

Phoneposting from work or I'd go into more detail

Minor edit: when you do not actively oppose Nazis, confronting them whenever and wherever it is within your power, you're saying you're fine with genocide.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 00:53 on Aug 2, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Javid posted:

Nice false dichotomy, but no, holding slightly different opinions than you on a subject does not make people "supporters of fascism". It means they disagree with you on what methods are necessary or effective to combat fascism. I, personally, am opposed to giving them exactly the attention they want but feel free to keep trying it if you feel differently, I guess

So you are opposed to actively opposing them, and calling out/combatting their poo poo.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Someone want to remind me when the last time 'ignore the problem and it will go away' last worked?

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Okay, I see the defenders of GENOCIDAL loving FASCISTS

I Demand Food posted:

I find it ironic that, in a thread nominally about calling out racism and authoritarianism, so many are advocating authoritarianism in order to shut down views they disagree with.

To basically say that stupid, hateful people shouldn't be able to say stupid, hateful things because other people are stupid and may agree with them is a ludicrous position to take.

Ain't nobody that I've seen that's been calling for government oppression of speech, not to mention poo poo doesn't work (ask me about ineffective hate speech laws in Canada!). Haven't seen any super authoritarian bullshit either.

Tremblay posted:

Likely you drive people whom otherwise would agree with the end, but disagree with your methods to go "gently caress off oval office, not my problem". Which I suspect isn't sustainable for a population as vulnerable, and small numbered.

Tremblay posted:

We were supposed to use this thread to call out, and raise attention to lovely behavior and bad actors in the firearms community. That seems like a pretty good thing to do. So can we get back to that?

Tremblay posted:

By all means, employ any and all forms of violence you feel necessary.

It's totally cool to call or hint that posters are Nazis, Nazi sympathizers, Nazi adjacent. In fact previous threads have shown that you can do so casually with absolutely no consequences.

First, if 'used violence to resist nazis' makes you go 'gently caress off, I'm throwing you to the nazis', then at best you're a spineless shitbag, or more likely a Nazi. Second, here's me calling out your lovely behaviour. You'd throw folks to the wolves for defending themselves against violent fascists. So hey, poster username Tremblay with a history of being a shitbag in TFR, defending fascists, barely hiding your racism, etc, please take note: You are a loving Nazi sympathizer. And if you want proof, I'll literally just look at your rapsheet, and I'm sure that's missed lots. Now, as I've said before, there's basically two ways to go here. You can work on reforming yourself, stop defending Nazis, work against internalized racist bullshit, and try to become a net positive in the world.

Or you can be a loving Nazi, in which case the best cure would be for someone to hold you in a puddle until the bubbles stop(or so says my Opa).

Javid posted:

I don't think there's any actual disagreement on the concept that white supremacists are bad itt

The problem is that giving them exactly what that want (more media attention, and to help normalize the violent suppression of unpopular speech) is also bad

It's also fairly pointless to argue about since most of the people getting pissy itt aren't actually interested in listening, just shouting their existing opinions at any attempt at a dialog. Good luck with your tactics I guess, we'll see what happens

Fuckin again. Ignoring them does not make them go away. This isn't about unpopular speech, this is about if you do not loving stop them from spreading their bullshit whenever you can, they're gonna use violence to gently caress over millions of people. Basically, it's this loving post right here VVV

Cessna posted:

Okay, so this:



Didn't just start with all of those people just waking up one day and saying "hey, I think I'll be a Nazi."

It started with a small group of stupid hateful people. But then they said stupid, hateful things to other stupid, hateful people, and then they said stupid, hateful things to other stupid, hateful people. And before you know it, it ended up here:



Maybe if more people would have told them to shut the gently caress up it wouldn't have ended up there.
^^^ this right here? It's loving important. If you gotta use physical violence to stop a Nazi? Well, violence sucks but you stopped a loving Nazi. Letting them do their thing does not loving help.

You don't ignore cancer. You cut that fucker out, treat it with chemo, and bombard it with loving radiation. Yes, the fascists do want attention. But "genocidal fascist fuckboys taste curb after assaulting protesters, news at 11" is not the attention they want. You want to stop racism and fascism? You can't just do it passively, hoping everyone will ignore them and they'll go away.

Shaocaholica posted:

So in large parts of asia there is a culture of local race supremacy. Look at Japan. And yes, they did some horrible things in the past but I don't think the culture of race supremecy is dead in their society after surrendering and is still strong in other places too like China. But I also don't think their version of race supremacy calls for the extermination of other races. So can the idea of race supremacy exist without also being genocidal? I'm not saying its a good thing but we seem to be calling everyone with a race superiority complex also genocidal.

Racist loving bullshit is racist loving bullshit. It may technically exist without being genocidal, but it still supports the oppression of others, making them second class at best, with the bonus of human rights abuses, systemic violence, and the occasional 'ruling group has decided you're subhuman and are just gonna murder a fuckpile of people'. On a long enough timeframe, that aparthied bullshit becomes either genocide or slavery.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Tremblay posted:

Thinking that escalating violence is a bad thing doesn't make me a Nazi sympathizer. Knowing that violence begets violence doesn't make me a Nazi sympathizer. Thinking that you all talk like insufferable twats doesn't make me a Nazi sympathizer. Making a joke based on a worn out stereotype doesn't make me a racist. It makes it a bad joke.

Hate speech laws should scare the poo poo out of everyone. The fact that you seem to be implicitly supporting them is what indicates you might be an authoritarian in the eyes of plenty of folks.

Vandalism, random assaults, by people wearing black and in masks sounds a lot like a low key Klan rally with a slightly different uniform. Congrats I guess?

gently caress off with your strawmen.

That Works posted:

You can climb down from that cross anytime.

Pretty sure he can't if he's burning it.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


BENGHAZI 2 posted:

I guess the whole "advocating for murdering the degenerates and the mud people" thing isn't violence

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Miso Beno posted:

God damnit now I can't use the broad arrow or the Cascadian flag?

You say, as I look at the loving Fash try to hijack several of my religious symbols in addition to the ones the already tainted.

Edit: loving Mjolnir are you goddamned kidding me
edit2: please folks, look for signs someone's a fascist aside from Asatru religious symbols. If they've got both Asatru and other poo poo, yeah you've got a Volkish fuckface that needs the inside of their skull introduced to a sledgehammer, but Tiwaz, the Valknut, Mjolnir, and Algiz alone ain't a reliable sign someone's fash rather than just religious.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 07:42 on Aug 7, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Pitch posted:

Modern Asatru was invented in like 1973 as a Northern European heritage thing. There's almost complete overlap between Americans who claim to worship Thor in tyool 2019 and white supremacists, and the leftover are probably people who own every Avengers Funko Pop and I won't miss tarring them with that brush.

Yep, totally a 1973 invention. And that's fine. Wicca ain't that old either. Second, Volkish asshats are in the minority, they're just the loud pricks. Most Asatruar groups are inclusive, in North America and world wide. What you're saying is the equivalent of 'All Christians are Klan/WBC' or 'All Muslims are Terrorists. Third, you're a fuckbag, and since we're painting with the broadest strokes possible, obviously a pedophile and denier of Japanese war crimes during WW2. Fourth, who the gently caress gives a poo poo what got someone started down the rabbit hole of Norse stuff or Asatru. My little catalyst of 'oh this poo poo's cool as gently caress, maybe I should look into it' was hearing and listening to Amon Amarth.

Internet Wizard posted:

Hey man some of us just really liked Vikings and are Scandinavian as all hell so it resonated more than generic “pagan” or Wicca

This is also a thing.

Jehde posted:

Maybe don't say this in a thread with a vehemently anti-racist dude that follows Asatru. It's like saying anyone with an anime avatar is a pedophile.

It's me, I'm the dude. The guy that regularly calls for shooting Nazis right in the goddamned face.

the yeti posted:

I’m pleased that there seems to be a growing trend of overt anti-racism amd rejection of white supremacists among Asatruar and adjacent circles but for now I’m ok with being initially suspicious of Americans who sport these symbols in certain ways unless they’re also overtly anti fash or anti racist.

I say all this with a huge amount of amusement because I have a huge extremely visible tattoo of Tyr and Fenrir so it could very much apply to me too.

Bhurak posted:

There's been kind of a sectarian split. Safe way to tell is to ask about declaration 127.


Edit:. That wasn't very descriptive. Declaration 127 is a quote from one of the primary books telling people to call out and fight evil(in this case rascist ideology). Not many of us and we are spread pretty thin so we tend to be terminally online. Most will know it and have an opinion. Those that don't will probably be old and/or rascist.

And these two right here. The Volkish/Inclusive split isn't even a new thing. It's been going on since the 80s. Declaration 127 was only needed because of fuckbags, like our local anime avatar rear end in a top hat, saying that everyone involved with the movement (rather than a small minority) are racists. It's now to the point where the openly, overtly anti-fascist/anti-racist groups are gaining ground, rather than just generic Universalist/Inclusive groups that just didn't tolerate racist bullshit.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Notgothic posted:

It was a real drag when I found out that the Black Sun had been coopted by neo-nazis, that's literally the only thing I've ever wanted as a tattoo. Cooooool that the use among shitheads is just blowing right the heck up now.

My dude, the Sonnerad has only ever been a Nazi thing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sun_(symbol)

Edit: you want a good protective symbol, here's one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegv%C3%ADsir

Or this https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_magical_staves#/media/File%3ALBS143-aeglishjalmur.png

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 01:10 on Aug 9, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


SpaceSDoorGunner posted:

The black sun seems to be really popular with crypto fash like those “tribalists” types.

If by tribalist types you mean Nazis claiming to be Heathen, the correct term is Volkish and it's exactly as Nazi related as it sounds

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Steve Balmer posted:

You're right, that was a cheap shot. Communism is stupid but communists aren't necessarily stupid, they could just be misguided or not have thought things through.

Oh go gently caress yourself. Maybe bootstrap yourself into a guillotine, eh?

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Cyrano4747 posted:

Yup. Sure is. Suspect as gently caress too since he has a 2008 regdate, a grand total of 23 posts on the account, and a good chunk of those are poo poo stirring here in the last couple days.

Notice that heís signed up for a vacation, whereas Mohawk was just told to slow his roll a bit.

Maybe if Iím really lucky Iíll find out from the powers that be that heís a known assholes alt or something.

Which is legit, because I'm extra loving salty about capitalist bullshit right now.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Miso Beno posted:

Oh is the scary money boogie man going to make you consume goods?

ps: Im pretty salty that you told a someone to kill themselves and got away with a warning.

'scary money boogie man', as you put it, is laying me off come fall so as to increase his profit margin in a shop he puts under 8 hours a year into. Not to break even or anything. But to make it more profitable. After he's already taken the vast majority of the value of my labour all year, and earned just about triple what I have purely off of the products I have produced and sold. And that's after all shop expenses as a nice little bonus. And 75% of the money I have earned going to rent to make a parasitic landlord that does literally nothing but take my money.

But go ahead, pop off about how I'm just grumbling about the 'scary money boogie man' making me consume goods.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Aug 15, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


emathey posted:

Political arguments are dumb, but I am pretty sure he is saying that communism has a poor track record for providing societies where one has the freedom and opportunities to choose to work where they want.

If be pretty happy with 'have work, have food, have housing, have full healthcare (mental and physical), maybe have some extra to enjoy a hobby or games'. Cause capitalism sure doesn't give me all those, and my choice of jobs is still unsteady dogshit where I routinely need to find new work cause the owner or bosses want more money

Edit: new page? Well poo poo, better provide some real content when I get home. Anyone interested in a primer on how to tell if the dude at the range with Norse tattoos is a Nazi or not?

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 04:35 on Aug 16, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Tips on how to tell if the dude with Norse tattoos at your range is a Heathen, or needs shot

Okay folks, this poo poo's personal. In case you didn't know, I'm Heathen. I'm also a big supporter of Heathens Against Hate, probably going to join The Troth (a large and explicitly anti-Nazi and pro-equality Heathen/Asatru organization in the US), and anyone with a pair of braincells to rub together that's been in TFR any amount of time probably has some idea of just how strongly I loving loathe fascists, white supremacists, and other such scum. So first let's go over some terms. These terms also works as a real quick way to sort people out: just fuckin' ask them. They a heathen? If yes are they universalist? What do they think of Declaration 127 calling out the AFA for being Nazi fucks?

Heathen:
Used here as a generic, in the pagan community this specifically refers to Neo-Germanic Pagans, aka followers of Asatru. We're the oddball folks that at some point got WAAAY too into Vikings and somehow ended up worshipping the old Norse gods. There's a million different flavours of this, but it comes down to two real groups: Universalist and Volkish (who everybody hates)

Universalist:
We're the not-shitbags. Universalists welcome all people, whatever their religious, cultural, or ancestral background, gender or sexual orientation, who have developed or wish to develop a relationship with our Gods and Goddesses, and would like to know more about Asatru or other forms of Heathenry. Most of us hold strong anti Fascist opinions as well, since that kinda goes hand in hand with just not being dirtbags. The Troth and Ńsatrķarfťlagiū (Icelandic Asatru church) are good examples of Universalist organizations.Most also have extremely serious and good sexual misconduct policies (with the Troth, being found to have committed any offence results in being immediately, loudly, and permanently removed from the organization, and they will help local government prosecute their own members in this case, as well as having policies in place to help protect folks with restraining orders and such).

Volkish:
White Supremacist Fuckbags, to the core. Volkish organizations espouse Asatru or Heathenry as a racial religion, belonging only to those of European (read: white) ancestry. Frequently Volkish organizations are blatantly racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, and also Literal loving Nazis. Volkish beliefs, as a bonus, literally got it's start in Nazi Germany during the attempts to revive a Germanic folk religion. The least racist a Volkish group gets is explicitly not allowing any person of nonwhite origin to join. Examples of these include: the Asatru Folk Assembly, the Odinist Fellowship, Asatru Alliance, Soldiers of Odin, and their splinter group the Wolves of Odin.

Declaration 127
A signed declaration from over 150 Asatru groups worldwide, specifically calling out the AFA and their racist shitbaggery, but more generally referring to Volkish Neo-Nazi organizations in general. It's pretty loving blunt.

Havamal, stanza 127 posted:

I rede thee, Loddfafnir!
and hear thou my rede,--
Profit thou hast if thou hearest,
Great thy gain if thou learnest:
If evil thou knowest,
as evil proclaim it,
And make no friendship with foes.

Now that we've got that basic stuff out of the way, lets get into some symbols. More obvious ones come first, the ones that are more generally used by Heathens will come last. A good quick method here with the later ones if there's any sort of red around or used with the mark, you basically double the odds of Fascism

Swastikas:
I don't need a picture of this. You know what it is. You see this, and it's not crossed out or otherwise clearly being modified into an anti-nazi symbol, then you know the person with it is a loving Nazi. There is an incredibly small chance the bearer is one of the really really foolish people that are trying to reclaim the symbol, but unless that's proven, they're a loving Nazi.


Triskele:
A three armed Celtic symbol that gets borrowed now and then, this one is really really easy to tell. Is it the one in the picture, or very similar to it, usually by also being rather sharp edged and aggressive looking? They're a loving Nazi. Otherwise when more rounded, particularly when it looks like three waves, not a Nazi. A big reason why this is here, despite being primarily a Celt thing, is that a sharp armed one, in association with other Norse symbology, is an almost sure bet they're a loving Fascist.

SS Runes:
Again, don't need a picture. Yes, we use the Sowilo rune for things. Like the letter S. We don't use two side by side with nothing else. Got this, they're a Nazi.


Sonnerad:
Okay, unlike all the previous ones, this one is not a 100% sure bet. As we've seen in this very thread, some folks don't know this is an outright Nazi invention and symbol. And there is very much a chance someone might not realize that. I've seen it used by folks of other pagan faiths unknowingly even. With that said, you see this, start listening for dogwhistles, start lookin' for other signs.


Odal/Othala rune:
This one is properly tricky, but there's an easy way to figure out if you should be looking close: Does it have the little upswept legs? If yes, then you might have a racist fuckbag on your hands. If no, then there's a chance they're just a Heathen. Look for other signs just to be sure. Volkish types use the upswept one in association with Nazi bullshit.


Valknut:
Now we're getting into the 'probably not' turf, the Knot of the Slain is a symbol of Odin, just like the Othala rune above. Specifically, it's commonly considered a dedication to Odin. As you probably guess from some of the organization names above, Nazis loving love Odin, despite never seemingly knowing fuckall about him. However, lots of Heathens have Odin as their patron, so unless this is spotted with other things as well, there's decent odds the person sporting this is just another heathen. If you spot this in conjunction with a few Runes that are mentioned here (and are being used as symbols rather than letters), then you probably have a fascist. With a Universalist, it's much more likely to be on it's own.


Algiz rune:
Here's another somewhat tricky one. Algiz, the life rune, is normally a good thing. It's symbolic not super common among Heathens, but it gets used now and then. However, when put together with other things in here, you crank chances of being a Nazi right up there, particularly when used beside the Odal rune and Valknut. Likewise if you have two of them side by side, with one of them inverted, or on a triangular backdrop. Also, if used by most Universalists, there will probably be some sort of naturalistic motif or theme to it, rather than just the rune. Volkish fuckbags use it to symbolize 'survival of the white race'.


Tiwaz/Tyr rune:
Unless used with other, more explicit Nazi iconography, there's a very good chance this is innocent. There's an exception if you're in Sweden though, because the 'Nordic Resistance Movement' uses it. In that case, it bears a little investigation. Us Universalist types use it as a dedication to Tyr, a pretty self-sacrificing god largely associated with honour and oaths.


Triquetra:
While technically a Celtic symbol, some of us Heathens borrow it. Pretty good odds someone with this is harmless.


Mjolnir:
It's Thor's hammer. The Crusher is the singular most common Heathen symbol. You see this on a confirmed Nazi, I personally ask you to hit them for me. If you see the specific one I'm showing here, I actually ask you to tell me (or apply a smaller, one handed sledge or blacksmith hammer to the Nazi's limbs/skull, if you're willing), because that's my personal one. That's going into my skin whenever I finally get a chance and can safely spare the funds. Unless this is combined with much more explicit bullshit, just let my fellow Heathens go about their business.

As always, with any of these symbols(except Mjolnir), keep an eye out for dogwhistles or other fuckbaggery. Anti-immigrant speech is frequently a dead giveaway.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


One effort post, now time for a no effort post

Miso Beno posted:

Have you considered changing your line of work?

ahahahahahahahahahahahahah

No, I got into working in kitchens rather than working in the trade I spent all my savings getting educated and trained in for fun and *checks notes* less than a living wage

Miso Beno posted:

I'm not sure what you're on about, but if the particular field you're in is full of lovely bosses perhaps it's a good opportunity to make a change? I'm not saying it's a choice to be poor, but it's pretty clear to me Mohawk is intelligent and likely has a skill set that can be applied elsewhere to earn a better income.

Every field is that. Unless you've got money, connections, experience, and training, basically everything sucks and getting ahead is near impossible. I get a bit of extra suck because most things around here are tourism based. Of course, if you want to bankroll me, I'd be glad to have my very small business blacksmithing get turned into a real career! I'd only need to not be in debt from trying not be homeless and not starve, be able to afford to actually stop working and not immediately be at risk of homeless or without food, have an adequate supply of materials and fuel, a shop to actually work in rather than hoping it's not raining because I can't work steel inside or in the rain, etc. Or you could give me the money to actually maybe get working in the trade I'm actually trained in, machining, just a nice little investment of more than I've made in the last four years, up front, just for tooling, and then a very serious well made shop and the land for it, and then operating expenses for at least three years.

A Wizard of Goatse posted:

I know loads of intelligent, highly skilled people who just plain didn't get lucky in the right way to get a comfortable job, and about as many worthless deadweights as capable people who get paid well, mostly to sit on their rear end and do nothing regardless. Being smart can help you exploit opportunities when they come along, but they do not come along for most people, and being smart is one of the less useful assets compared to, say, being well-off to begin with and having lots of free time to blow on speculative ventures with no immediate payoff instead of day-to-day subsistence. You know, some of the extremely basic critiques of how capital allocates value people have been making for a century. Perhaps patronizing the smart guy and telling him that if he doesn't like the way his life is going he should simply go get a better one like he has just never thought to pick another job off the job tree is not a useful, smart-person thing to do?

fuckin this. And I don't even like agreeing with Wizard ever, but he's goddamned spot on right here.

edit:

Liquid Communism posted:

That is a real good post, thanks MohawkSatan.

Thanks dude.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Cyrano4747 posted:

Yeah, can we draw a line under the communism/capitalism poo poo for now? People are just talking past each other and frankly this is a good thread that doesnít need the distraction.

Iím not talking about making a rule or anything, just let it drop for now and focus on what this thread is about.


Like, for example, Mohawks excellent post on Norse imagery. Jesus that needs to be made into a pdf or poster.

By the way, what are the proper terms of address there? Itís not an area I have a lot of background in and is prefer not to sound like an rear end. With my catholic background, for example, ďheathenĒ makes me feel like Iím being an rear end but apparently itís a chill term? Iíve kind of defaulted to Norse or Asatru in the past.

Edit: note that I have a blind spot Iím very aware of in that what little I know comes from studying the third reich and being exposed to how it was utilized there.

Heathen (with a capital H) or Asatruar are the proper ones. Norse Pagan works, and Asatru is technically the name of the faith rather than an adherent. One to avoid is Odinist, for all it's Volkish connotations.

the yeti posted:

Hey not that it’s your job to educate anyone but I stand greatly informed and I’m sorry for posting in ignorance earlier

Man, no worries. I had to write a thing on ID'ing Volkish fuckbags for this thread, and not everyone can be expected to know everything.

Captain Log posted:

Mohawk, what do you think of the term, “Skinhead?”

When I was little in the 90’s visiting London for the summer, it sure seemed to mean Nazi. Stateside, it appeared to mean that more so. But thanks to the internet, I know not all skinheads are bad. Where are the lines with skinhead?

Skinheads are again, literally two groups. There's the racist fuckbag ones, and the ones that are violently anti-racist. I've got a few friends that were or are in the second group. An easy, though not always reliable way to tell is bootlaces. White is white supremacist, blue is a cop killer, red is neo-nazi, yellow is anti-racist, purple is gay pride. Black laces declare nothing, they're literally just the default.

Anchor Wanker posted:

Ooooh i know a thing. I hang out with some local skins of the decidedly not racist at all variety, to the point of beating up the ones who are. According to them (and some followup research) OG skins were not racist at all, and Nazis jacked their style like they did with runes. These Nazi skins are known as "boneheads" and identify with different colors or lace patterns on their boots. SHARP and RASH are afaik the big anti racist groups.

This right here. And while Nazi skinheads get a rep for being violent, they ain't got nothing on Redskins (anarchist and communist skinheads) who are violent as hell in confronting fascists and racists, but otherwise generally some really friendly folks. Disclaimer on all that, I'm not a skinhead at all, just know a decent few, including one who's a recovered fascist.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 18:21 on Aug 16, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


CainFortea posted:

Sharps fuckin HATE skinheads. HATE HATE HATE.

Sharps around portland back in the early 00s used to go "Ball Bashing" where they'd find skinheads at shows, and full power steel toe plate football kick skinhead balls from behind. You don't see skinheads around at shows much anymore thanks to their work.

This right here. I really cannot understate how much Sharps/Redskins loving HATE Nazis and racists. It's not just a 'oh well everyone hates Nazis'. It's 'don't leave two of them unsupervised in a room together, cause there's only gonna be one breathing when you get back'.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Shooting Blanks posted:

I guess a better way to look at it is that not all racists are fascists, but [almost] all fascists are racists - it just isn't necessarily the main driving force behind their hosed up ideology. I'm sure MohawkSatan or someone will come by and tell me how wrong I am, but that's what I've gathered so far.

You're actually pretty much spot on. Racists are shitbags yes, but they're not always fascists or outright Nazis. Fascists should be shot to the last man, but they're not always racist, at least not in a direct sense. Nazis/white nationalists are always both fascists and racists. It breaks down like this:

Racists: think other ethnic groups are subhuman or lessers
Fascists: authoritarian ultra-nationalists, think their nation is the best, and will go to the extent of actively harming other nations to prove it, which frequently crosses over into thinking that anyone of any other lineage is lesser or subhuman
Nazis: Racist Fascists, but taken to an even farther extreme. They don't just believe others are lesser, but believe themselves outright superior, and that any risk to the superior group must be destroyed. When risks include 'contaminating the blood line', that means genocide.

Now, the usual question is 'well how do you spot a fascist', and that's always looking for some 100% surefire way and anything less than that is met with 'well you just call everyone you don't like fascists' but that's dumb and wrong. A very helpful person out there made a nice little thing on how the characteristics of Fascism, which links in nicely to how to ID one.

Dr. Lawrence Britt posted:

Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

That's taken from studying the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia), and Pinochet (Chile). So if your country meets most of those, good odds things are at least a little Fashy. If you've got an individual that believes in most of those, congrats, you've got a fascist or whatever they've decided to call themselves this week. Again, there's no sure fire way, because they 'hide their power level', or might not even realize that they're loving fascists.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Cessna posted:

Well, poo poo.

:usa:

yeuuuup

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Steve Balmer posted:

That's the part that confuses me, I've always thought the definition of fascism includes a bunch of stuff that would be better to define as authoritarianism. Leave the fascism definition for the political-economic system, business that is nominally privately owned but functionally centrally controlled.

Fascism is by definition authoritarian.

edit: also corporate friendly, rather than centrally controlled.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 21:01 on Aug 21, 2019

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Steve Balmer posted:

If we can whitewash the authoritarianism out of communism then we can do the same for fascism, it'll make a cleaner definition. When people lump the two together it makes it easy to use fascism as a strawman for authoritarianism, implying that the people who hate fascists aren't authoritarian themselves.

oh gently caress off with that poo poo again

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


FruitNYogurtParfait posted:

Do not tell him to kill himself this time

Now when did I imply he'd be the one operating the guillotine?

Anyways, here's a great teaching moment. Let's talk about IDing possible fascists, using our very own poster Steve Balmer as an example.

First, we examine username as a quick thing to look at. Steve Ballmer is an actual person, a billionaire capitalist. Not much of note aside from donations to the JNF, one of those nice little organizations that 'buy' land for settlements in Israel. So we've got nothing here aside from a rich fuckbag that supports anti-Arab apartheid. This is possible ground level misdirection. Second, let's look at his very limited post history. What do we see? Anti-communist posting, whether direct attacks on posters, or saying leftist gun orgs would disarm everyone the instant they get a chance. Third is the 'anyone who hates fascism is authoritarian' poo poo, trying to separate authoritarianism and fascism, or make fascism be a thing all about central control.

What's this give us? Nothing concrete, but it begins to hint at something. A very long absence of any posting, only two gun posts in TFR, the rest attacking groups or individuals that would be the enemies of fascists. It tells us to watch this poster like a loving hawk, and wait for a dogwhistle or three to slip out. On the other hand, it might just tell us that SA poster Steve Balmer is an rear end in a top hat capitalist, or a dickbag troll that primarily likes to attack anything left of centre.

And this is how ID'ing the fash works. Modern fascists, in their own words, like to 'hide their power level'. They do and say things that push in a direction, but don't go outright. You can see this with Christian Identity/Identitarian/Ethnonationalist/etc groups like Identit Evropa or the National Policy Institute. They're not openly Nazis. They're not openly fascists. So you need to watch for signs that are deliberately hidden.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Internet Wizard posted:

Apparently Identity Evropa has decided to rebrand themselves as American Identity Movement, because AIM is a great acronym and not at all an organization of super villains from comic books.

This is a common tactic, going waaaay back. Nazis and fascists LOVE to change their organization names as a form of misdirection, which goes right back to the literal no bullshit Nazis, with their proper name National Socialist German Workersí Party being a misdirection in of itself.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


CleverHans posted:

"An armed society is a polite society" to quote Heinlein.

How far do we really want to test this?

About this far IMO

Karl Marx posted:

Under no pretext should arms and ammunition be surrendered; any attempt to disarm the workers must be frustrated, by force if necessary.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Beau is good people.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


chairface posted:

Let's also not forget the part where she knowingly convicted an innocent man, which in a sane nation gets your rear end executed

FTFY

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Steeltalon posted:

Can we please stop using derogatory slurs. Chud is hateful and dehumanizing to actual mutants.

And to those of use who would actually live underground and take 'eat the rich' literally.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Android Apocalypse posted:

Fascists buy shoes too, and they need to be advertised to.

Fascists don't need anything except a dose of high velocity lead applied directly to the brain.

MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747


Hey look, another video discussing the Alt Right Playbook, this one about radicalization and recruitment of normal people. Feels like one folks here should listen to/watch (and as the video says, TALK TO YOUR MODS)

Video is here.

The points about how infiltration in safe/'apolitical' spaces actually works feels especially useful.

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MohawkSatan
Dec 20, 2008

by Cyrano4747



Crowder, for those who didn't know, is one of those almost but not quite open alt right shitbags. If Walther is playing nice with him, that's really not a loving great thing.

MohawkSatan fucked around with this message at 22:47 on Dec 3, 2019

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